View Full Version : ePub and number of page


Haya
11-13-2009, 04:22 AM
Into epub i see little numbers.
These numbers are like page numbers, I think
But these numbers change using different readers.
This is a property of EPUB or the reader?
There is a setting because they are always the same for all readers?

LoganK
11-13-2009, 04:58 AM
Into epub i see little numbers.
These numbers are like page numbers, I think

If you are using Adobe Digital Editions (and it sounds like you are), then, yes, those are page numbers.

But these numbers change using different readers.

Interesting. That is not supposed to be the case. The page numbers are supposed to be universal (e.g., page 200 of a book is the same on the Desktop, the Sony PRS-505, and the Astak Pocket Pro).

This is a property of EPUB or the reader?
There is a setting because they are always the same for all readers?

If you are asking, "is there is a way to no display the page numbers?", then the answer is no.

Haya
11-13-2009, 05:11 AM
If you are using Adobe Digital Editions (and it sounds like you are), then, yes, those are page numbers.



Interesting. That is not supposed to be the case. The page numbers are supposed to be universal (e.g., page 200 of a book is the same on the Desktop, the Sony PRS-505, and the Astak Pocket Pro).



If you are asking, "is there is a way to no display the page numbers?", then the answer is no.

In one epub i see different number
using my opus and the bebook of frend of mine.

If i use go to number XY i go in different point of epub.
So under opus cybook and bebook the numbers are different.

It is a different setting of reader?
May I force to have the same numbers ?

HarryT
11-13-2009, 05:26 AM
Something funny going at there. ADE page numbers should be consistent across all devices. They certainly are with the devices that I have!

frabjous
11-13-2009, 08:39 AM
Typically, these are not included in the ePub, and then they are imposed by the reading software. Some of them do them differently than others, hence what you're seeing.

It is also possible to put a "page-map" inside the ePub to force the numbers to appear at certain points, though strictly speaking this is supposed to be an Adobe-only extension, and it'll make your ePub fail an ePub check. It works though, although some reading software (calibre, Stanza) will ignore them.

You can read about it in this thread:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53195

LoganK is incorrect technically; you can get rid of these, but there are significant costs. See the thread.

Haya
11-13-2009, 09:17 AM
Typically, these are not included in the ePub, and then they are imposed by the reading software. Some of them do them differently than others, hence what you're seeing.

It is also possible to put a "page-map" inside the ePub to force the numbers to
..................



Thanks
:)

EowynCarter
11-14-2009, 02:08 PM
Speaking of that.
I bough a few books when the editor a put some larger right margin, in an attempt not to overlap onto page numbers. That's pretty lame. I hate having to edit my book to fix that....

What went into the mind of the people at adobe when they did that ?

kennyc
11-14-2009, 02:34 PM
...

What went into the mind of the people at adobe when they did that ?

I don't mind the standard ADE numbers at all, in fact I prefer having them, particularly on readers that do not display the page number continuously.

HarryT
11-14-2009, 02:36 PM
It would be nice to be able to have the option to turn them off, though.

On all my ePub books I set a 13pt right margin. This is sufficient to avoid the page number overlapping the text, but still not large enough (for me, at least) to look overly-wide.

kennyc
11-14-2009, 02:41 PM
It would be nice to be able to have the option to turn them off, though.

On all my ePub books I set a 13pt right margin. This is sufficient to avoid the page number overlapping the text, but still not large enough (for me, at least) to look overly-wide.

True, better to have the option.

Peter Sorotokin
11-14-2009, 03:41 PM
In one epub i see different number
using my opus and the bebook of frend of mine.

Hmm, that is not supposed to be the case. Are you sure it exactly the same (byte-to-byte) EPUB?

frabjous
11-14-2009, 04:52 PM
Hmm, that is not supposed to be the case. Are you sure it exactly the same (byte-to-byte) EPUB?

Different software definitely puts these in different places for ePubs that don't contain a page map. Actually, the details are given in the thread I linked to above.

kennyc
11-14-2009, 05:16 PM
Different software definitely puts these in different places for ePubs that don't contain a page map. Actually, the details are given in the thread I linked to above.

True, but the same file on different ereaders will be the same. It is all based on a character count (that apparently includes the markup tags, etc).

Peter Sorotokin
11-14-2009, 09:45 PM
Different software definitely puts these in different places for ePubs that don't contain a page map. Actually, the details are given in the thread I linked to above.

Is there any renderer, except for Adobe's, that supports those?

GeoffC
11-15-2009, 05:35 AM
Confusing when on the one hand we discover Adobe's "ePub best practice" that mentions the use of PageMap, and then a couple of posts including Do not use page mapping (http://groups.google.com/group/epubcheck/browse_thread/thread/6d2994b3538ff687) on epubcheck stating the OPF specs do not allow PageMap to be used.

Implying that only ADE will allow use of the page map....

So much for a 'standard' .....

Peter Sorotokin
11-15-2009, 04:09 PM
Confusing when on the one hand we discover Adobe's "ePub best practice" that mentions the use of PageMap, and then a couple of posts including Do not use page mapping (http://groups.google.com/group/epubcheck/browse_thread/thread/6d2994b3538ff687) on epubcheck stating the OPF specs do not allow PageMap to be used.

Implying that only ADE will allow use of the page map....

So much for a 'standard' .....

Adobe had to solve page number issue (and put page numbers on the margin) for business reasons. Our position is that page map is a practical solution to existing problem. It will be supported in the future. Other renderers are free to use it as well. In the future NCX syntax will probably be "blessed" for the same purpose, but currently it is not. Once NCX page map syntax is officially part of the standard, Adobe viewer will support it in parallel to existing page map syntax.

Jon's message that you referred to is Jon's opinion (not IDPF position) and I think he misrepresents many things. I saw a variation of this message in so many places that I am just unable to go to each one and rebuke it.

In a nutshell: yes, it is non-standard extension and it won't validate (being an extension); no, it won't be dropped; no, it won't cause problems in any other viewer; no, there is no standard way of doing it (even though alternative syntax does validate, that usage of NCX is not "blessed" in the spec); no, there is no other viewer that implements NCX syntax for pages at this point.

JSWolf
11-15-2009, 10:44 PM
Just to note, Peter does not mean me.

Xenophon
11-16-2009, 12:56 PM
Adobe had to solve page number issue (and put page numbers on the margin) for business reasons. Our position is that page map is a practical solution to existing problem. It will be supported in the future. Other renderers are free to use it as well. In the future NCX syntax will probably be "blessed" for the same purpose, but currently it is not. Once NCX page map syntax is officially part of the standard, Adobe viewer will support it in parallel to existing page map syntax.

Jon's message that you referred to is Jon's opinion (not IDPF position) and I think he misrepresents many things. I saw a variation of this message in so many places that I am just unable to go to each one and rebuke it.

In a nutshell: yes, it is non-standard extension and it won't validate (being an extension); no, it won't be dropped; no, it won't cause problems in any other viewer; no, there is no standard way of doing it (even though alternative syntax does validate, that usage of NCX is not "blessed" in the spec); no, there is no other viewer that implements NCX syntax for pages at this point.
OK, Peter, that explanation is just fine and dandy. Now... Can you force (or at least very strongly encourage) your ADE Mobile licensees to provide an option whereby the display of the little marginal page number can be TURNED OFF!!!! :smack::smack: Page numbers that overlap the displayed text are really, REALLY, REALLY annoying! And I resent the idea of having to waste some of my very limited screen real-estate just to stay clear of the &^%$&^%$&^*% page number.

The concept of these page numbers seems just fine to me. But the implementation (as embodied in currently available Sony readers) is absolutely maddening! I can already see the page number in the information bar at the bottom of the screen. So why oh why must I have it "in the margin" -- especially when my preference is to get rid of the &^%*&^% margin anyway.

Thanks for you attention and sorry for the heated language above. This is one of the persistent nits that's particularly annoying with an otherwise quite nice device and display software. (Decent hyphenation support would be the next thing on my list, btw.)

Xenophon

DaleDe
11-16-2009, 03:17 PM
Different software definitely puts these in different places for ePubs that don't contain a page map. Actually, the details are given in the thread I linked to above.

An eBook page is typically smaller than an Adobe page. Some eBook readers support the idea of a subpage while others do not. The outcome is that the page can be slightly different place depending on which subpage you are on. It is also possible I suppose to be one page off depending on where on the page the actual break occurs and how the rendering engine treats it. There is also a possible difference in how some readers due arbitrary breaks of pages based on buffering limits. (I have not seen this in actual practice however.)

Dale

frabjous
11-16-2009, 04:09 PM
An eBook page is typically smaller than an Adobe page. Some eBook readers support the idea of a subpage while others do not. The outcome is that the page can be slightly different place depending on which subpage you are on. It is also possible I suppose to be one page off depending on where on the page the actual break occurs and how the rendering engine treats it. There is also a possible difference in how some readers due arbitrary breaks of pages based on buffering limits. (I have not seen this in actual practice however.)

Dale

I was actually referring to the claim--made by you, actually, in the thread I linked above--that whereas ADE puts these in every 1024 chars, FBReader does every 2048, and so on. Is that not right?

kennyc
11-16-2009, 04:51 PM
I was actually referring to the claim--made by you, actually, in the thread I linked above--that whereas ADE puts these in every 1024 chars, FBReader does every 2048, and so on. Is that not right?

For the same file? And they are both ADE implementations?

I thing FBReader may not be ADE, but it may be adding the pages to 'emulate' it but do it it's own way.

DaleDe
11-16-2009, 05:55 PM
I was actually referring to the claim--made by you, actually, in the thread I linked above--that whereas ADE puts these in every 1024 chars, FBReader does every 2048, and so on. Is that not right?

That is correct to my knowledge but that is not what I was talking about. An ADE page of 1024 characters is more than a screen, sometimes 4 or even more screens depending on the font size. These screens are referred to a subpages and some readers include the subpage as part of the page number and some do not. So the screen contents can be different depending on which subpage you are referring to. The ADE page boundaries should the same place if you line up the page number with the text.

Dale

wallcraft
11-16-2009, 06:10 PM
I thing FBReader may not be ADE, but it may be adding the pages to 'emulate' it but do it it's own way. FBReader implemented page numbers before ADE existed. It copied the approach from an existing Reader app (but I don't remember which one). FBReader's definition, from a post by geometer at FBReader Google Group (http://groups.google.com/group/fbreader): At the moment the "page" definition is:
1) page contains 2048 characters
2) each image is counted as 100 characters
3) if the forced page break is occured (e.g., at the end of a book section), the next page is started from this place indepently from the value of "counter" The same definition is used for all ebook formats.

kennyc
11-16-2009, 06:18 PM
FBReader implemented page numbers before ADE existed. It copied the approach from an existing Reader app (but I don't remember which one). FBReader's definition, from a post by geometer at FBReader Google Group (http://groups.google.com/group/fbreader): The same definition is used for all ebook formats.

Ah! Thanks.

Peter Sorotokin
11-17-2009, 12:07 AM
OK, Peter, that explanation is just fine and dandy. Now... Can you force (or at least very strongly encourage) your ADE Mobile licensees to provide an option whereby the display of the little marginal page number can be TURNED OFF!!!! :smack::smack: Page numbers that overlap the displayed text are really, REALLY, REALLY annoying! And I resent the idea of having to waste some of my very limited screen real-estate just to stay clear of the &^%$&^%$&^*% page number.


Everyone who pays any attention on the manufacturing side has gotten that point across. In the upcoming Reader Mobile SDK there is an API to show/hide those. I think eventually on most devices it will either be off or switchable. But it will take some time to filter down.

HarryT
11-17-2009, 03:53 AM
Everyone who pays any attention on the manufacturing side has gotten that point across. In the upcoming Reader Mobile SDK there is an API to show/hide those. I think eventually on most devices it will either be off or switchable. But it will take some time to filter down.

Thanks, Peter; that's excellent news.

Sweetpea
11-17-2009, 04:25 AM
Everyone who pays any attention on the manufacturing side has gotten that point across. In the upcoming Reader Mobile SDK there is an API to show/hide those. I think eventually on most devices it will either be off or switchable. But it will take some time to filter down.

It might make start using epub. I tried the format when I got my reader but got highly annoyed at that page number. (though the lack of a top and bottom margin may keep me at mobipocket...)

GeoffC
11-17-2009, 06:27 AM
Peter many thanks for the clarification on the issue of page numbers.
What I am most concerned about is that a standard has to be agreed and then maintained; we have to draw the line somewhere and the sooner the better for consistency, especially as the number of e-readering devices continues to increase.

kennyc
11-17-2009, 07:19 AM
Everyone who pays any attention on the manufacturing side has gotten that point across. In the upcoming Reader Mobile SDK there is an API to show/hide those. I think eventually on most devices it will either be off or switchable. But it will take some time to filter down.

Wonderful!

Valloric
11-17-2009, 10:29 AM
Everyone who pays any attention on the manufacturing side has gotten that point across. In the upcoming Reader Mobile SDK there is an API to show/hide those. I think eventually on most devices it will either be off or switchable. But it will take some time to filter down.

This alone has just made my week. Thanks to Peter and the whole Mobile SDK team. Now if only Sony could just push the new SDK version to PRS-505 owners in a firmware update...

Xenophon
11-17-2009, 12:14 PM
Everyone who pays any attention on the manufacturing side has gotten that point across. In the upcoming Reader Mobile SDK there is an API to show/hide those. I think eventually on most devices it will either be off or switchable. But it will take some time to filter down.

Hooray!!!!! :thanks::thanks: :iloveyou::iloveyou::iloveyou: :thanks::thanks:
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

And, from the "give 'em an inch, and they want a mile" department: Can you say anything about upcoming improvements in hyphenation? Even something as 'simple' as what TeX does would be exceedingly welcome. (<cynical voice>It's just a small matter of programming...</cynical voice>)

Xenophon
(can you tell I'm excited about the page number change?)

Peter Sorotokin
11-17-2009, 12:44 PM
And, from the "give 'em an inch, and they want a mile" department: Can you say anything about upcoming improvements in hyphenation? Even something as 'simple' as what TeX does would be exceedingly welcome. (<cynical voice>It's just a small matter of programming...</cynical voice>)

We still experimenting with it. TeX does a very good job in layout, but is not judged by a number of page flips that one can do on a small device before the battery dies. We have access to many good text layout engines, the challenge is to fit such engine into a device.

Peter Sorotokin
11-17-2009, 12:50 PM
Peter many thanks for the clarification on the issue of page numbers.
What I am most concerned about is that a standard has to be agreed and then maintained; we have to draw the line somewhere and the sooner the better for consistency, especially as the number of e-readering devices continues to increase.

We are on track to resolve page map vs NCX issue, but, again, it'll take some time to filter down.

Xenophon
12-10-2009, 12:12 PM
Slightly :offtopic: but... Speaking of desirable changes for licensees...

Can you, um... encourage them* to pay attention to the standard attribute for sorting by author (I think it's file-as, but I could be wrong). It's super-annoying that my Sony Reader (for example) insists on alphabetizing by the #@*&#$@%* first letter of the visible author-name. Even though the meta-data in their very own format (LRF/LRX) has a perfectly-good entry for the correct value to sort by. Given that ePub has this meta-data available, it would be great if the device makers actually paid attention to it.

Xenophon

* Perhaps some midnight phone-calls with the Marlon-Brando-as-Don-Corleone voice: "You owe us a favor..." might be effective if simple persuasion, documentation, and Adobe's "bully pulpit" aren't enough. :D

kennyc
12-10-2009, 12:21 PM
Slightly :offtopic: but... Speaking of desirable changes for licensees...

Can you, um... encourage them* to pay attention to the standard attribute for sorting by author (I think it's file-as, but I could be wrong). It's super-annoying that my Sony Reader (for example) insists on alphabetizing by the #@*&#$@%* first letter of the visible author-name. Even though the meta-data in their very own format (LRF/LRX) has a perfectly-good entry for the correct value to sort by. Given that ePub has this meta-data available, it would be great if the device makers actually paid attention to it.

Xenophon

* Perhaps some midnight phone-calls with the Marlon-Brando-as-Don-Corleone voice: "You owe us a favor..." might be effective if simple persuasion, documentation, and Adobe's "bully pulpit" aren't enough. :D

Yep. That has annoyed me on many occasions and continues to.