View Full Version : How do I make either end notes of footnotes in epub?


ghostyjack
11-11-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm going to be making several books that if it was in pbook form would need a footnote on several of the pages.

I've been told that footnotes are not really possible in epub, so would need to use endnotes. Is this true? If not, how do I add footnotes.

If it is true and I need to add endnotes, then how do I do this? Also, how do I make it go back to the originating page?

pdurrant
11-11-2009, 06:37 PM
My ePub of Kidnapped & Catriona has lots of footnotes/endnotes.

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58419

You just need a hyperlink on the note to take you back to the original text.
Footnotes (appearing at the bottom of a page) aren't really possible. Endnotes are pretty much as good.

I'm going to be making several books that if it was in pbook form would need a footnote on several of the pages.

I've been told that footnotes are not really possible in epub, so would need to use endnotes. Is this true? If not, how do I add footnotes.

If it is true and I need to add endnotes, then how do I do this? Also, how do I make it go back to the originating page?

DaleDe
12-19-2009, 02:06 AM
While it is certainly possible to create endnotes as internal html links. I was wondering if the ePUB committee has or will address the need for an ePUB footnote. They talk about allowing the application to code it but they don't provide any unique way for an application to know it is a footnote and not some other kind of link. I would think a new tag would be appropriate such as the wiki uses. <ref>this is a footnote</ref> would automatically be enough to code in a footnote and then the reading application would use that data to generate a proper footnote, or even an endnote depending on what the application could do.

Dale

rogue_ronin
12-19-2009, 02:50 PM
There's discussion elsewhere (in the Sigil forum, I believe) about using the footer tag to code footnotes. It's pretty theoretical, though, because no current device actually displays the footers.

One of the hopes is that it might popup a window containing the note. Anything is possible, as what the tag displays is defined by the device firmware. It could be a running footer, or whatever.

You can mimic a popup, sort of, without footer code. In my books, I code the superscripted indicator as a link, without actually superscripting (because superscripting usually makes ugly line-spacing, and it's pretty small to click on):


... As a rule, however, non-exploding projectiles are used at night." <a class="EndNoteLink" id="Link_To_Endnote_1" href="#Endnote_1">[1]</a></p>


Which links to a <li> element named "Endnote_1", which is enclosed in a section at the end of the book called "Endnotes", defined by a <div>. (Don't mistake the <h2> header as defining a section. And I use the title attribute to store the endnote count.)


<div class="Spine" id="Endnotes" title="1">
<h2>ENDNOTES</h2>
<ul>
<li id="Endnote_1">
<strong>[1]</strong> I have used the word radium in describing this powder because in the light of recent discoveries on Earth I believe it to be a mixture of which radium is the base. In Captain Carter's manuscript it is mentioned always by the name used in the written language of Helium and is spelled in hieroglyphics which it would be difficult and useless to reproduce.
<a class="EndNoteBackLink" href="#Link_To_Endnote_1">
<img class="Return" alt="Return to Link Button" src="images/return.png" />
</a>
</li>
</ul>
</div>


In my CSS, I've defined the following for images in the "Endnote" <div>, inside an unordered list, within a <li> element, enclosed by an anchor with the class "EndNoteBackLink":


div#Endnotes ul li a.EndNoteBackLink img {
margin-top:.25em;
margin-bottom:.25em;
display:block;
page-break-after:always;
}


Which, if you're unfamiliar with CSS, puts a page-break after the link back to the original endnote link. (I should probably just select images with the class "Return", now that I re-read it. Still, it works.)

The effect is that when you click the original link, you jump to a page that contains only the note you're trying to read. You click on the little "return" image to return to your original spot.

(The image actually says "return", just as an image -- this allows me to theme it, along with all the other images I use.)

If you're paging through the book, you will eventually come to the Endnotes section, and you can page down through the notes sequentially. Whenever you're at an endnote, you can page down (or up) as well -- you're not pinned in another document, as you might be if each endnote were its own document.

Note that my structural tagging is pretty strict: it may not suit you. The advantage is that I can automate it, and that it is readable. With everything fairly well classed, I can control layout pretty granularly. Still, to each his own: the concept should help you do what you want.

You can find the book I took this code from here. (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53047) It's in XHTML, which is what ePub is based on -- conversion should be dead simple.

m a r

DaleDe
12-19-2009, 03:22 PM
Thanks for posting something that works. And it is an interesting use for CSS. I still believe there should be an official version from the idpf committee to address this problem.

Footers are not the answer btw. This is the wrong use and they are only one line per page.

rogue_ronin
12-19-2009, 03:41 PM
XHTML microformats are indeed needed. You'd probably have to come up with several variants: textbook, novel, etc.

It's important that they not be limited by current technology, too. Most of the readers don't support the spec properly, and it'd be a shame if there were 'workarounds' -- such as the 300k flow-size limit.

m a r

Bossman
07-02-2010, 12:24 PM
Just as a note the Ipdf specification on
Open Publication Structure (OPS) 2.0.1 v1.0
has the css tag
oeb-page-foot

The content of an element assigned display: oeb-page-head should be presented only as a header, and the content of an element assigned display: oeb-page-foot should be presented only as a footer. Neither should be simply presented as if it were inline or block. Reading Systems, however, are free to present headers and footers either in special areas as usual for paper publications, or to make them available in another way. For example, a device with a small screen might instead pop them up on demand. For purposes of page layout, these display values are similar to block boxes with an absolute position (i.e. a position value of fixed or absolute). That is, they are removed from the normal flow and a new block box is created with its own flow. Margins, padding, and other block characteristics are determined as if the element had position: fixed set.

which would be what you want. But ADE does not implement this feature.

AlexBell
07-03-2010, 05:35 AM
I'm going to be making several books that if it was in pbook form would need a footnote on several of the pages.

I've been told that footnotes are not really possible in epub, so would need to use endnotes. Is this true? If not, how do I add footnotes.

If it is true and I need to add endnotes, then how do I do this? Also, how do I make it go back to the originating page?

For what it is worth here is how I do it:

<span id="C2F01"></span><a href="Footnotes.html#C2N01">[1]</a>

<p id="C1N01"><a href="Chapter01.html#C1F01">[1]</a> whatever the footnote is</p>

C2F01 is the first footnote in chapter 2, and C2N01 is the first entry in Footnotes.html

The user sees [1] in Chapter 1 and clicks on it. This takes him or her to [1] in the footnotes - the second line above. To return to the text the user clicks on this link, and it takes him or her back to the text.

The link in the text is put in a span because some footnote references occur in the middle of a paragraph. The link in the footnotes is put in a paragraph because each footnote is on a new line.

I prefer a separate footnote file at the end of the ebook. It is possible to put the footnotes at the end of the chapter just by putting them in a separate div. But this means that the user has to page through the already read footnotes to get to the next chapter. That's a minor task with a print book, but I think a bit of a nuisance with an ebook.

Because of what little experience I have in web design I am a little obsessional about making sure that the ebooks I prepare validate according to the W3C standards, and that the ebook validates according to ePubcheck. So I do not use anything that is not valid XHTML 1.1.

I hope this helps. Regards, Alex

eping
07-15-2010, 06:58 AM
Footnote needs to be supported by EPUB and reading devices.
Endnote works well.
If your manuscripts are written in MS Word, all footnotes can be converted
into endnotes automatically by saving as web pages.

JSWolf
07-15-2010, 04:09 PM
But don't forget a link to go back to where you were as most ADE implementations do not have a button to go back to where you were (Sony does).

eping
07-15-2010, 11:57 PM
But don't forget a link to go back to where you were as most ADE implementations do not have a button to go back to where you were (Sony does).
Would we have to add back link manually?
If so I would rather give up back link, after all there's no back link in real paper books.

Jellby
07-16-2010, 04:47 AM
But don't forget a link to go back to where you were as most ADE implementations do not have a button to go back to where you were (Sony does).

The Cybooks do too (they have a hardware "back" button).

Would we have to add back link manually?
If so I would rather give up back link, after all there's no back link in real paper books.

Well, a "back" link is always useful. Have you never wished to search where a given foot/endnote is referred to in the text? I have, very often, and it is a pain to look for the reference. In my Ph.D. disertation (in paper) I included back links in the bibliography section, so every entry had a line stating the page(s) where it had been referred to.

GeoffC
07-16-2010, 05:21 AM
with the speed ereaders link to notes, does it really matter that, what in paper versions were footnotes (page-related), are re-designated end-notes ?

would it not be fair to say that footnotes are increasingly an 'old-fashioned' concept....

EricDP
07-16-2010, 04:57 PM
...after all there's no back link in real paper books.
Sure there is. It's called your finger, or a bookmark. Or do you close the book when you go to an endnote, and then have to find your page again by flipping through from the start?

AlexBell
07-18-2010, 08:19 AM
with the speed ereaders link to notes, does it really matter that, what in paper versions were footnotes (page-related), are re-designated end-notes ?

would it not be fair to say that footnotes are increasingly an 'old-fashioned' concept....

I think we're all agreed that footnotes at the bottom of the page and not possible in ebooks because 'pages' are of different sizes depending on screen and font size.

That leaves endnotes at the end of chapters, or endnotes together at the end of the ebook. For what it is worth my practice is to put the endnotes at the end of chapters if there are only one or two of them for the chapter, or put them at the end of the ebook if there are many of them for each chapter.

The problem with putting a lot of footnotes at the end of the chapter is that one has to page through material one has already read when one comes through the end of the chapter. And I always put a link back to the place in the text where the footnote occurs. It may not be necessary, but just seems neater, more symmetrical.

Regards, Alex

EricDP
07-19-2010, 12:08 AM
I think we're all agreed that footnotes at the bottom of the page and not possible in ebooks because 'pages' are of different sizes depending on screen and font size.
Actually, I don't agree. If the coding standards like EPUB were altered to support it, it wouldn't be hard at all. You tag something as a footnote, place a link to it in your main text, and when the reader flows the main text, it places the appropriate footnote at the bottom of the page that contains that text. Word moves footnotes around so that they are always on the same page as the text as you write a book. It's no different...

Jellby
07-19-2010, 05:53 AM
Actually, I don't agree. If the coding standards like EPUB were altered to support it, it wouldn't be hard at all.

The ePUB standard already has "display: oeb-page-foot", which already should do something very similar (the only problem is when there are several footnotes in a page). But there's apparently not a single ePUB reading system that supports it.

slex
07-19-2010, 07:04 AM
I think we're all agreed that footnotes at the bottom of the page and not possible in ebooks because 'pages' are of different sizes depending on screen and font size.



This is not true. Footnotes are well implemented in .fb2 files.

AlexBell
07-19-2010, 07:13 AM
This is not true. Footnotes are well implemented in .fb2 files.

I stand corrected. I read ePub books.

Regards, Alex

GeoffC
07-20-2010, 06:34 AM
What's the advantage of keeping footnotes in e-format ?

Jellby
07-20-2010, 06:58 AM
Do you mean as opposed to endnotes? With footnotes you can see the main text and the footnote at the same time, no need to navigate, follow links, go back, remember what exactly the text said, etc.

GeoffC
07-20-2010, 09:30 AM
Do you mean as opposed to endnotes? With footnotes you can see the main text and the footnote at the same time, no need to navigate, follow links, go back, remember what exactly the text said, etc.


Only if you've placed the page correctly on all the possible screen sizes .... :bookworm:

Jellby
07-20-2010, 10:07 AM
Only if you've placed the page correctly on all the possible screen sizes .... :bookworm:

Only if footnotes are properly implemented, yes. :)

GeoffC
07-20-2010, 10:54 AM
which begs the question, how easy is it to cater for each and every reader configuration there is .... especially when font size alteration does upset the best made plans ...

EricDP
07-20-2010, 01:18 PM
which begs the question, how easy is it to cater for each and every reader configuration there is .... especially when font size alteration does upset the best made plans ...

As discussed earlier in the thread, 'properly implemented' means that the ereader ensures it is placed on the same page as the reference. The only 'formatting' is the tag something as a footnote related to a certain piece of text. You don't have to lay out pages in reflowable text.

DaleDe
07-20-2010, 02:13 PM
I think we're all agreed that footnotes at the bottom of the page and not possible in ebooks because 'pages' are of different sizes depending on screen and font size.

That leaves endnotes at the end of chapters, or endnotes together at the end of the ebook. For what it is worth my practice is to put the endnotes at the end of chapters if there are only one or two of them for the chapter, or put them at the end of the ebook if there are many of them for each chapter.

The problem with putting a lot of footnotes at the end of the chapter is that one has to page through material one has already read when one comes through the end of the chapter. And I always put a link back to the place in the text where the footnote occurs. It may not be necessary, but just seems neater, more symmetrical.

Regards, Alex

Footnotes are certainly possible if the software supported them. For example they could be popup boxes or be factored into the pagination display. Some other formats have support. At some point I believe ePUB will finally offer them in the standard.

Dale

DaleDe
07-20-2010, 02:21 PM
which begs the question, how easy is it to cater for each and every reader configuration there is .... especially when font size alteration does upset the best made plans ...

The way it is done in a wiki is to define the footnote text in line with the reference. Something like:

This entry needs a footnote <note>Here is the footnote text</note>. The rest of the text.

Then the reading program can do with it what it wants. Don't restrict your thinking to a paper book.

Dale

charleski
07-20-2010, 06:58 PM
Formatting a footnote to appear at the bottom of the page just represent too many difficulties for a reflowable format. It's hard enough to get right in fixed print.

The classic example is how to handle a 6-line footnote that is linked to an anchor 4 lines from the bottom of the page. You could just shift all 4 lines to the next page, but that would leave an ugly gap. Or you could put 3 lines of the footnote on the first page and slip the other 3 in at the bottom of the next (which removes much of the advantage of footnotes compared to endnotes and needs some form of marker). Or you could alter the page length on enough of the preceding and following pages so that the anchor point is shifted to a position where you can fit the entire footnote on the same page.

A popup box for footnotes is by far the most elegant solution, and superior to classical methods - those who don't want to read footnotes (which should, really, only contain superfluous information) don't even need to see them.

Jellby
07-21-2010, 07:05 AM
The classic example is how to handle a 6-line footnote that is linked to an anchor 4 lines from the bottom of the page.

Indeed, footnotes are a nightmare in printed books, especially when they are long, frequent and contain further footnotes. But ebooks must not be restricted by what's possible with printed books. One solution is a pop-up or similar method, another solution is letting the footnote area flow independently of the main text: Say you have room for only 3 lines of footnote, and you have to display a footnote 10 lines long... an ebook reader could allow the user to page forward just the footnote, and leave the main text fixed, no need to turn the whole page to se the rest of the footnote. Something like navigation with frames.

eping
07-23-2010, 11:11 PM
This is not difficult at all, for ePub Readers.
MS Word implements this very well, whatever page size you set, the footnote will be displayed correctly at the bottom. So ths is not a problem for various screens and reflowable format.
The reader just need to estimate the height of text lines and the height of lines of all footnotes contained, and get it before it overflowed. It's much easier than writing a web browser. Since most devices are based on Abobe SDK, only if Adobe improve it, most devices will support footnote naturally.
Many features of ePub(HTML, CSS) have not been implemented by Adobe SDK.
It has nothing to do with ePub standard.

charleski
07-23-2010, 11:58 PM
MS Word implements this very well, whatever page size you set, the footnote will be displayed correctly at the bottom.

Word uses one of the first two options I described: it shifts the bottom lines onto the next page if the anchor is on the penultimate or final line of a page and it splits a long footnote if the anchor is on the third-last line or above, leaving 2 lines on the original page and the rest on the next page. Neither method is optimal. It does not attempt to rebalance the page length over several pages so that the anchor is shifted, which is the best way of dealing with it.

But since it's trivial to program a popup window or a separately-scrolled region at the bottom of the page, there's no reason for ereaders to attempt to emulate the clumsy practices needed in print.

HarryT
07-24-2010, 04:04 AM
But since it's trivial to program a popup window or a separately-scrolled region at the bottom of the page, there's no reason for ereaders to attempt to emulate the clumsy practices needed in print.

A pop-up window, however, negates the key benefit of a footnote over an end-note, which is the ability to see both the footnote, and the text referring to it, simultaneously.

GeoffC
07-25-2010, 05:52 AM
The way it is done in a wiki is to define the footnote text in line with the reference. Something like:

This entry needs a footnote <note>Here is the footnote text</note>. The rest of the text.

Then the reading program can do with it what it wants. Don't restrict your thinking to a paper book.

Dale


I wasn't aware that I was ...

A page in an ebook is a virtual property, certainly with my Gen3 I can have a font size that provides page length (say) 50 lines adjusted to as few as 5.
How would the footnotes be able to cope with this ?

And this is only one reader
It is easy to see other issues with size, compare screens Gen3 and iPod ....

Terisa de morgan
07-25-2010, 06:35 AM
I wasn't aware that I was ...

A page in an ebook is a virtual property, certainly with my Gen3 I can have a font size that provides page length (say) 50 lines adjusted to as few as 5.
How would the footnotes be able to cope with this ?


With relative sizes, and zones for footnotes and text when necessary. It's the same the screen size and the font size. You compare sizes and include the text you can in both zones. Sorry, not a big fuss of programming, it has been made for a lot of time. You only have to make good and efficient code, but this is not an unknown algorithm.

GeoffC
07-25-2010, 07:47 AM
With relative sizes, and zones for footnotes and text when necessary. It's the same the screen size and the font size. You compare sizes and include the text you can in both zones. Sorry, not a big fuss of programming, it has been made for a lot of time. You only have to make good and efficient code, but this is not an unknown algorithm.

But you are still relating everything to a page; so where do the footnotes go that allow for all eventualities ?

Terisa de morgan
07-25-2010, 08:49 AM
But you are still relating everything to a page; so where do the footnotes go that allow for all eventualities ?

You don't place the footnotes in the beginning, they're related to the base text as you see in Word (when you change the page size, the footnotes are moved according to the base text, exactly the same you're asking for). The only problem is when there're too much footnotes in a same page, so you have to part them. Which is exactly the problem with this? Because I don't understand. All the WYSWYG editors do this (Word, OpenOffice, FrameMaker), taking into account the paper size, which is the difference here?

By the way, if you define a page at your Gen3 as a virtual property, the same happens at any document, where you can change the font size and the paper size.

GeoffC
07-25-2010, 10:02 AM
The argument is that the footnotes are to be seen on the same page as the reference ?!
As the virtual page size increases because of font increase, any footnote at the bottom of the device screen moves accordingly off the screen ?

charleski
07-25-2010, 12:00 PM
All the WYSWYG editors do this (Word, OpenOffice, FrameMaker)

As I've already pointed out, they don't do it particularly well. A proper solution is far harder, particularly in the presence of multiple anchors and widow/orphan control.

Screen-based readers don't need to stick to a single-window paradigm, and so simply don't need to resort to ugly solutions.

Terisa de morgan
07-25-2010, 02:45 PM
The argument is that the footnotes are to be seen on the same page as the reference ?!
As the virtual page size increases because of font increase, any footnote at the bottom of the device screen moves accordingly off the screen ?

Yes, of course. If the base text moves, so the footnote does.

As I've already pointed out, they don't do it particularly well. A proper solution is far harder, particularly in the presence of multiple anchors and widow/orphan control.

Screen-based readers don't need to stick to a single-window paradigm, and so simply don't need to resort to ugly solutions.

Well, perhaps it's a nice solution for some people and the two options (end of book - end of page) should be available, not only one of them.

HarryT
07-25-2010, 03:12 PM
The argument is that the footnotes are to be seen on the same page as the reference ?!

Absolutely. That's pretty much the definition of a footnote.

As the virtual page size increases because of font increase, any footnote at the bottom of the device screen moves accordingly off the screen ?

No, the body text of the book flows with the text size, but the footnote must remain anchored to the foot of the page. No current reader will do this.

GeoffC
07-26-2010, 11:37 AM
I think we're saying the same thing Harry, differently ....

HarryT
07-26-2010, 12:30 PM
I think we're saying the same thing Harry, differently ....

OK :).

DaleDe
07-26-2010, 05:50 PM
A pop-up window, however, negates the key benefit of a footnote over an end-note, which is the ability to see both the footnote, and the text referring to it, simultaneously.

That depends on how big the pop-up window is. It could be shown next to the text that references it. Either just above or just below depending on where on the page the reference is.

Dale

DaleDe
07-26-2010, 05:59 PM
Absolutely. That's pretty much the definition of a footnote.



No, the body text of the book flows with the text size, but the footnote must remain anchored to the foot of the page. No current reader will do this.

Certainly true but if the actual data is present in the file at the point of the footnote reference then this data can be easily factored into the pagination at the time it is done. If there is not room for the footnote on the page with the text then break the page before the text and place the reference on the next page along with the footnote. The only real problem occurs if the footnote by itself is longer than a page. If so you can start the footnote on the page with the text and give the rest of the footnote page by itself so that the text following the footnote reference begins on a page by itself. It does not have to be done the way a printed book does it.

When the page is in the process of being displayed the reader encounters the footnote text immediately after the reference with no other data. It can then figure out the best way to display the text based on where it needs to appear. You never predefine the location of the footnote for any size text. It is done dynamically always.

Dale

eping
07-27-2010, 04:08 AM
But you are still relating everything to a page; so where do the footnotes go that allow for all eventualities ?

Yes, text must be relative to a page, because page exists naturally everywhere.No matter it's screen on iPad, nook, or PC.

ePub is not a book format without pages, I doubt if there's a book without pages.
ePub and all reflowable formats are just giving up predefined page setting and let readers or devices to determine the page size, they are not page irrelevant format, but free paging or multi paging format.

And among all methods of showing notes, footnotes in the bottom of a page is the best one, it's better than endnote and popup. It's not because traditional books use it, the real reason is that it's the easiest one for readers, who need no turning to another page nor clicking.

On devices not fitful for showing footnote(such as too small of screen), it can use other method instead.

And devices should have an option to let user to choose if show or turn off the notes.

But all these have nothing to do with ePub itself, they are things of readers on devices. And now, all ePub readers still need much more improvement. (Even many basic XHTML and CSS features not implemented) They are just like web browsers 15 or 20 years ago.

GeoffC
07-27-2010, 05:38 AM
I'm glad no one mentioned side-notes ... :snicker:

charleski
07-27-2010, 09:32 AM
I'm glad no one mentioned side-notes ... :snicker:

DBW (http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2010/from-print-to-epub-exporting-sidebars/) has an interesting article on how to handle them.

DaleDe
07-27-2010, 11:46 AM
But all these have nothing to do with ePub itself, they are things of readers on devices. And now, all ePub readers still need much more improvement. (Even many basic XHTML and CSS features not implemented) They are just like web browsers 15 or 20 years ago.

Actually there is some tie to ePUB format. Currently the definition of footnotes is not designed in a fashion that allows the reader to do what we have defined in this thread. There is no specific tag assigned to footnotes like my example of <note> which is mandatory to identify the footnote contents. ePUB standard needs updating to define this.

Dale

eping
07-28-2010, 12:01 AM
Actually there is some tie to ePUB format. Currently the definition of footnotes is not designed in a fashion that allows the reader to do what we have defined in this thread. There is no specific tag assigned to footnotes like my example of <note> which is mandatory to identify the footnote contents. ePUB standard needs updating to define this.

Dale

Yes, but add a <note> tag is so simple, they just need type some words in their standard document, but the problem is if and when will those companies support and implement it.
Actually, I think ePub should give up XHTML,adopt a more simple markable language only for books, such as naming BML or so.
<book>
<head><title value=''/><author value=''/><cover src=''/>
<style></style></head>
<body>
<chapter id=1><title/><text>....</text></chater>
<chapter id=2><title/><text>....</text></chater>
</body>
</book>
It uses XML for global structure, simplified HTML + CSS for content.

Notes can be written as
<text>
<p>abc<n src=1/>def</p>
</text>
<notes>
<n id=1>...</n>
<n id=2>...</n>
</notes>

GeoffC
07-28-2010, 05:21 AM
DBW (http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2010/from-print-to-epub-exporting-sidebars/) has an interesting article on how to handle them.


i walked right into that one ....

only possible, though, on readers of a suitable girth or the ability to switch to landscape mode. in some ways perhaps just a mite tidier than footnotes ?

EricDP
07-29-2010, 07:27 PM
Actually, I think ePub should give up XHTML,adopt a more simple markable language only for books, such as naming BML or so.

That's pretty much what they did, only it's called OPS (Open Publication Standard), not BML, for the content. OPS is not XHTML+CSS. It is, for the most part, a subset of XHTML+CSS, with some eBook-specific additions. Put simply, if you code to the full set of XHTML+CSS you will not have an OPS compliant book. And if you code to the full set of OPS you will not have compliant XHTML+CSS.

e.g. "display: inline-block" is not valid in an OPS Style Sheet, but it is valid in CSS

e.g. "display: oeb-page-head" is valid in an OPS Style Sheet, but not in CSS

An EPUB is OPS content organized by in an OPF structure and encapsulated in an OCF container.

OPF - Open Package Format - basically describes how all the files need to be organized, and the metadata file (the .opf file) that needs to be included to define the contents.

OCF - Open Container Format - describes how all these separate files are to be combined into a single file for easy transport. It basically says use ZIP.

Back to the topic of this converstain, they could easily define another "display" type for footnote and it would solve our problem, except, just like "oeb-page-head" and "oeb-page-foot", it would likely go unimplemented. It seems (at least for now) that all the vendors are just using existing web rendering engines and they haven't (yet) done much to extend to OPS. Some even render illegal tags (like "display: inline-block"), that they clearly didn't implement from scratch - they got it from their existing kit.

Freeshadow
07-31-2010, 02:30 PM
It seems (at least for now) that all the vendors are just using existing web rendering engines and they haven't (yet) done much to extend to OPS. that's the pain ain't it?

keriah
08-04-2010, 08:09 PM
Is it possible to create a link to an endnote (or similar) that then supports the reader going back to the reading point, without creating an explicit link-back associated with the endnote? I cannot create a "return" link at the endnote because the endnote (actually, a reference item in the Bibliography) is pointed to from many places in the book, so an explicit, single return-to value is not possible. And the iPad has no physical 'back' button for the return.

Alternatively, is there a way to make the citation information appear in some form of "pop up" at the point of reading (similar to the 'hover' that can be created using javascript on a web page)?

GeoffC
08-05-2010, 06:35 AM
:hatsoff:

Welcome to mobileread ... keriah .... I, and I'm sure others, will be watching the experts answer that one .... Great question !

pdurrant
08-05-2010, 07:03 PM
Is it possible to create a link to an endnote (or similar) that then supports the reader going back to the reading point, without creating an explicit link-back associated with the endnote? I cannot create a "return" link at the endnote because the endnote (actually, a reference item in the Bibliography) is pointed to from many places in the book, so an explicit, single return-to value is not possible. And the iPad has no physical 'back' button for the return.


The only way I can think to do this in any way that will work without a back button is to have multiple copies of your endnote, each linking back to one of the references. An ugly solution, but it might be sufficient.

GeoffC
08-06-2010, 05:32 AM
Seems like a case for side-notes or footnotes, rather than end notes .... better still, perhaps pop-ups ....

Jellby
08-06-2010, 06:17 AM
The only way I can think to do this in any way that will work without a back button is to have multiple copies of your endnote, each linking back to one of the references. An ugly solution, but it might be sufficient.

I've just seen this in a Project Gutenberg HTML book, it took me a while to realize what was happening. I'm creating an ePUB version, and I'll remove the duplicate notes.

keriah
08-06-2010, 09:23 AM
Seems like a case for side-notes or footnotes, rather than end notes .... better still, perhaps pop-ups ....

Is there a way to create a pop-up in an ePub? Something of that nature is what I would prefer to use. (That would also be useful for glossary-listed terms.)

GeoffC
08-06-2010, 09:30 AM
Is there a way to create a pop-up in an ePub? Something of that nature is what I would prefer to use. (That would also be useful for glossary-listed terms.)

It is not supported.

capidamonte
08-06-2010, 05:42 PM
ePub supports float:left, float:right doesn't it?

You can make side notes by styling them with a different background or font, and floating them left or right. I've done it in XHTML ebooks. The Reading System needs to be sophisticated enough to display it properly, though, and that's where most ereaders break down.

keriah
08-06-2010, 07:07 PM
ePub supports float:left, float:right doesn't it?


Yes, indeed. And I am using that kind of code to float my images (left or right) so that the text wraps around the small image (to match the appearance in the print book).

But for these note references I do not want the citation to remain in view, which is why I mentioned the (not-yet-available) pop-up.

keriah
08-06-2010, 08:00 PM
...the (not-yet-available) pop-up.

Liz Daly has posted a video of one of her talks, and in it (at around 5:40) she shows CSS3 doing an image zoom. I could see that being used, in conjunction with a small image for the footnote/citation mark.

See video at: http://tinyurl.com/22nnuv9

JSWolf
08-07-2010, 03:34 AM
What could be done is the footnote is at the bottom of the screen page that contains the anchor to denote that there is a footnote. But the problem becomes when the footnote is too large and the font too big so there is not enough space on screen.

So that means side notes won't likely work well enough.

JSWolf
08-07-2010, 03:46 AM
Is this ePub going to be just for the iPad or is it for any reader? Because if it is for any reader then you have to make it such that it works on an unknown screen size with an unknown font size.

GeoffC
08-07-2010, 06:40 AM
A pop-up window, however, negates the key benefit of a footnote over an end-note, which is the ability to see both the footnote, and the text referring to it, simultaneously.

A possibility could be the jump to an end-note includes a duplicate part of the sentence/paragraph as well as the explanation - so the context is not totally lost.

pdurrant
08-08-2010, 04:11 AM
A possibility could be the jump to an end-note includes a duplicate part of the sentence/paragraph as well as the explanation - so the context is not totally lost.

What a good idea. I wonder if I should give it a go in Kidnapped. I've added many more glossary entries for archaic, obscure or Scots words to it, and perhaps context would help in some or all of them. (I did the same in my edition of Kim (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003JBHNS4/), although without any context, of course.)

Poppa1956
08-08-2010, 04:40 AM
Each book I looked at in the series B&N is offering free each week has endnotes with a link back on each endnote. They probably use coding similar to that suggested above.

keriah
08-08-2010, 05:10 PM
Is this ePub going to be just for the iPad or is it for any reader? Because if it is for any reader then you have to make it such that it works on an unknown screen size with an unknown font size.

Initially for the iPad, but I don't want to be intentionally exclusive to that target.

I liked the idea of the single-use citation, duplicating Bibliography entries (as needed) to handle multiple references to the same citation so that each could do its own proper link-back. As a test, in addition to the full Bibliography page (with no links back), I created a page containing only the citation. It had a link back to the corresponding place in the body of the book. However, that because problematic because I had to include that single-citation page in the 'spine' items (since there was a link to it). So, even though I kept it out of the TOC it was something the user could get to independently, and it because a potentially confusing duplication.

For now, for this book (which, it turns out, actually has few duplicate references to a citation) I am going to create a link on the single (or first) reference in the body of the book and include a link-back to it from the citation in the Bibliography page. For the very few cases that have a second use of the same citation I won't make that a 'live' link in the body.

This solution has spawned as whole new set of questions ... which will be better posted as new questions (threads).

Oldpilot
11-01-2010, 09:50 AM
If your manuscripts are written in MS Word, all footnotes can be converted
into endnotes automatically by saving as web pages.

This is my situation. The endnotes (and returns) work in a Kindle edition and also when opened in my web browser. Yet they don't work when I open the htm file in Sigil. Why is that? All other hotlinks work in the Sigil document.

HarryT
11-01-2010, 02:26 PM
If your manuscripts are written in MS Word, all footnotes can be converted
into endnotes automatically by saving as web pages.

This is my situation. The endnotes (and returns) work in a Kindle edition and also when opened in my web browser. Yet they don't work when I open the htm file in Sigil. Why is that? All other hotlinks work in the Sigil document.

Easiest thing to do is to look at the HTML source and see what's broken.