View Full Version : Sony Reader vs. iRex Iliad e-book reader


Alexander Turcic
01-05-2006, 03:33 AM
Thanks to Brian we know Sony's successor of the Sony Librie e-book reader is simply called the Sony Reader. I am not impressed. Well I would have been if iRex hadn't announced it's Iliad Reader a couple of days earlier. Comparison:

Dimensions:
Sony: 6.9" by 4.9" by .5"
iRex: 6.1" by 8.5" by .63"

Weight:
Sony: 8.8 ounces
iRex: 13.7 ounces

Screen:
Sony: 6-inch SVGA 800X600 4 grey scales (same like the Sony Librie)
iRex: 8.1-inch XGA 1024x768 16 grey scales

Internal memory:
Sony: ? "approximately 80 unillustrated books"
iRex: 64MB RAM, 224MB FLASH

Expansion slots:
Sony: SD, Memory Stick
iRex: SD, CF II

Support e-book formats:
Sony: BBeB Book (Sony Librie), Adobe PDF, JPEG, MP3
iRex: Adobe PDF, XHTML, TXT, MP3, others in near future

Others interfaces:
Sony: headphone jack
iRex: headphone jack, WiFi 802.11b, 10/100Mb Ethernet

Price:
Sony: USD $299-$399
iRex: ?

Summary:
The iRex is bigger and heavier. But it also features the better screen, better support for open formats, and better connectivity (which the Sony obviously lacks in).

Related: Sony's new e-book reader officially announced (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5663), More details on the Iliad ER 0100 e-book reader (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5582)

Laurens
01-05-2006, 03:50 AM
To be fair, at least Sony has given a price indication($299-$399). It's still unknown how much the iRex will cost (I'm guessing 600 euro at least) and whether it will be available outside Europe.

The Sony is targeted at consumers, while the iRex is aimed at the professional market.

Alexander Turcic
01-05-2006, 03:57 AM
True, I should have pointed that out as well. First post updated

Lorphos
01-05-2006, 05:04 AM
The Sony Reader has a faster display than the Librie.

The iRex Iliad has a touch screen (that's one of its best features)!

The sony will have approx 64mb builtin memory available for e-books btw.
The sony case is made from aluminium.

The Iliad can also read from USB sticks.

TadW
01-05-2006, 05:25 AM
The Sony Reader has a faster display than the Librie.
That's be useful. I've heard a few Librie owners complaining about the small refresh rate.

The iRex Iliad has a touch screen (that's one of its best features)!
Agreed! So the Sony Reader won't?

The sony will have approx 64mb builtin memory available for e-books btw.
Since they support SD Card now, the limited built-in memory doesn't hurt much. Unless read access to SD Card is slow...

The sony case is made from aluminium.
Any idea what the Iliad is made of?

The Iliad can also read from USB sticks.
Another great feature!

rlauzon
01-05-2006, 05:55 AM
Expansion slots:
Sony: SD, Memory Stick
iRex: SD, CF II

Support e-book formats:
Sony: BBeB Book (Sony Librie), Adobe PDF, JPEG, MP3
iRex: Adobe PDF, XHTML, TXT, MP3, others in near future


Two indications that Sony still doesn't get it.

1. The Memory Stick is dead. Gone. Failed. Note: past tense. Why they still keep adding support for it shows that they aren't looking at the market.

2. Proprietary formats. I can see them supporting their old format (to give their current users an upgrade path) - of course, if they used an open format in the first place, they wouldn't have that issue. But there's no reason they can't support HTML or text as well.

Regardless of the price, this doesn't seem like a good value. I get better value from my Palm as an eBook reader.

rlauzon
01-05-2006, 05:57 AM
Agreed! So the Sony Reader won't?

Seeing how the eBook formats that Sony supports does not allow for editing and there's no mention of any other feature that would require input, there doesn't seem to be a need for a touch screen on the Sony.

Brian
01-05-2006, 06:41 AM
I think the wireless features of the iRex are the what will make it a Sony Reader killer.
Imagine having news stories that are constantly updated wirelessly using RSS feeds as well as getting your content delivered with the push of a button with no wires or computer needed, unlike the Reader which can only get its content via a USB connection to a computer or through its memory card expansion slots.

Alexander Turcic
01-05-2006, 09:19 AM
David from Teleread agrees with me (http://www.teleread.org/blog/?p=4091), especially regarding the limited screen size (800x600) of the Sony Reader/Librie:

Trouble is, enlarging the text isn’t enough. It needs to flow, so that people don’t have to scroll horizontally. Even if the Sony offers flowability, the next question is whether the format will work on a wide range of devices from rival hardware vendors.

doctorow
01-05-2006, 10:18 AM
I mentioned it elsewhere already, but price plays an important role for me to decide which e-book reader to buy in near future. Since the price of the iRex is still unknown, I hesitate to comment which reader is the "better" of the two.

Laurens
01-05-2006, 10:54 AM
Teleread also mentions that Sony is planning to make the specs of their BBeB format public. Not sure if that is actually happening, but I might consider their Reader in that case. (I expect the iRex to be much more expensive, probably more than I'm willing to spend.) I don't care much for e-books. Reading news is much more important to me.

rmeister0
01-05-2006, 11:14 AM
2. Proprietary formats. I can see them supporting their old format (to give their current users an upgrade path) - of course, if they used an open format in the first place, they wouldn't have that issue. But there's no reason they can't support HTML or text as well.

Display of HTML (with css support) should be mandatory component of any dedicated reader.

As far as price goes, I would pay twice what the Sony is going for if it eschewed lock-in.

jse75
01-05-2006, 08:05 PM
I wonder if the iRex will be able to read any of the digital newspaper formats? The New York Times is available from newsstand.com as a proprietary PDF-based format, but it needs Windows based software, and then they also have it available as a Flash 7 based format too. I suspect none of this will work with the iRex out of the box.

I will definitely be getting one for my wife for read to read and mark up PDF documents, but it would be very cool to be able to read the newspaper on it and not have to waste all the paper every day...

Anyone know any more details of how the irex can mark up PDF files? That will be interesting to see.

Can't wait!

Brian
01-05-2006, 08:15 PM
I will definitely be getting one for my wife for read to read and mark up PDF documents, but it would be very cool to be able to read the newspaper on it and not have to waste all the paper every day...

I definitely agree with you there, and I really think that newspaper subscriptions along with subscription e-book services will help subsidize the hardware costs, and this will be a key element in encouraging e-book/e-magazine/e-newspaper adoption. While Sony will probably stick with an "à la carte" business model at the Connect store for e-books, I think iRex is probably going to go with the subscriptions-to-subsidize-hardware model with content partners. I also wouldn't be surprised if the New York Times becomes a major proponent and partner in such a strategy.

wwang
01-10-2006, 02:53 PM
I know there is not a mention of back lit. But a way to read the screen in low light or no light conditions sure is useful. Any ideas of if either the sony or irex has these abilities? I know the battery life will go down faster with a light on, but sometimes the presence of being able to read in the dark is very useful. Not always will you have light and since the device already has power, this makes is easier to not have to carry a light.

I had a hiebook. I use a palm. But neither are ideal. The Irex and sony are geting closer, but not if they don't have a light when I need it. Having to have a light is not always convenient.

doctorow
01-10-2006, 02:59 PM
There isn't any backlight, at least in the case of the Sony. Basically think of E Ink as regular paper; without enough light, you cannot read text on paper - and the same applies to E Ink.

Peppy
01-18-2006, 06:00 AM
I need a backlight as well. Without that I have no interest. Maybe they will change this in the future.

Charles Gray
01-29-2006, 11:42 PM
One question I have is why is Irex being coy about the price? It's nearly february, and by this time, they would have to have the manufacturing end of things all lined up, and to be honest, the distribution and marketing end of the spectrum as well.
I don't see the reason for giving no hints on the price, unless it's a very, very BIG price. And that could kill this product-- I know a lot of people who are interested in the Sony product, but the expense even for that is a little much for them-- if the Iliad is say, 500+ American, that'll kill it right then and there.

Bob Russell
01-30-2006, 12:16 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if iRex is >$500. They are targeting business purchases and the features are very rich. But, yeah, it will be nice to hear what one will cost us. :)

Laurens
01-30-2006, 03:19 AM
I asked for a price indication and got a canned "wait until April 2006" response. My guess is 600 euros at least. Also note that the device is meant for the European market only, at least for the time being.

Charles Gray
01-30-2006, 03:32 AM
I asked for a price indication and got a canned "wait until April 2006" response. My guess is 600 euros at least. Also note that the device is meant for the European market only, at least for the time being.
Which is kinda odd-- most businesses (and small busineses might very well be interested in this) plan their purchases ahead-- so the coy nature of their price info doesn't make me tremendously confident. I could see not nailing it down exactly, but a nearest hundred euro would be a very nice price range...unless they actually *haven't* ironed all the full production bugs out.

As for the expense, I think that might hurt them, especially for non-businessmarket. Granted, this is a business market item, but the home market will eventually be much, much, larger.
I just wish I trusted Sony more on the DRM end of things-- the fact that they're being coy about the need to convert PDF's bugs me. If it's some software that basically takes your PDF in and give you a txt. only file out, forget it. I really, really wish they'd have learned their lesson with the first forey into ebooks.

NatCh
01-30-2006, 01:58 PM
I just called iRex's U.S. Product Support line and asked for a price estimate. Today they were quite willing to give me very clear 650 euros (~785 USD), with discounts for volume purchases, of course. Ouch. All that fancy networking capability, I expect.

On all these e-ink readers, I've been thinking not backlight, but front-lighting for night time reading. Like a Lightwedge (http://www.lightwedge.net/) approach. They could even build it directly into the unit by thickening the screen's front plastic and running LED light into it at the edges -- that should light it quite nicely, and be fairly easy on the battery power. Even if they won't build it in, the price of a separate Lightwedge starts getting more reasonable given a set page size for (most) all of my books.

Charles Gray
01-30-2006, 02:07 PM
I just called iRex's U.S. Product Support line and asked for a price estimate. Today they were quite willing to give me very clear 650 euros (~785 USD), with discounts for volume purchases, of course. Ouch. All that fancy networking capability, I expect.


Or they may not want to get into the retail end of things-- the "discounts for volume purchases" might be a sign that we'll see cheaper Illiads in general retail stores, when those chains purchase a lot of units from irex. I don't know if that's what they're going to do, but generally, if you want to get retail penetration, you don't want to make your direct sales too attractive-- no chain store will pick up a unit if they think you'll just directly undersell them.

Alexander Turcic
01-30-2006, 02:08 PM
I asked for a price indication and got a canned "wait until April 2006" response. My guess is 600 euros at least. Also note that the device is meant for the European market only, at least for the time being.
At least you got a response. I contacted them a few weeks ago and never heard back ;(

NatCh
01-30-2006, 02:26 PM
I didn't really expect to get so clear an aswer, actually. I was hoping for an "in the such and such range." Perhaps they just decided to admit to a price recently. I figured the worst they could do was tell me they couldn't tell me anything, so....

I share Charles' hope that retailers will pick the thing up. I can't imagine why they wouldn't, they carried those ghastly iRocket things about ten years back.

The piece they all seem to be missing is that in order to get the average consumer to use such as this (as opposed to just us technophiles) they're going to have to figure out how to get the prices down to something the average consumer will pay. iRex seems to be planning to allow their content providers to foot some of the bill for the end user, perhaps Sony will do something similar, such as offer a few free books from their service to get us started.

I can't help wondering just how fast a processor an electronic reader really needs to have. Could they not do the job with, say, a nice, cheap 286 chip? Do they really have to be heavier hitters than my desktop PC? Maybe they'll have an "econo" line in a year or two, once we early-adoptors have defrayed some of their dev costs.

Charles Gray
01-30-2006, 02:42 PM
Well, to be fair, a lot of the features of the Iliad seem to be aimed (as they said) at the industrial and busines smarket. For example, a big repair shop where you can shoot PDF files and such to the mechanics. The long lasting e-ink means you can just grab your illiad off the desk in teh morning, without having to worry about it dying midway through the day.
So, if you *use* those features, it's probably a much better buy. Now, for someone like me, who really just wants it for a ton of books I have on my computer, the questoins are different. I don't need the wireless features, and the "write on the file" while nice, are also not needed.
My biggest question is simple:
What sort of DRM, and.... What does the conversion process do to my pdf's? In fact, if anyone here has had a chance to play with it, at a show, any information on that would be very welcomed.

Charles Gray
01-30-2006, 03:07 PM
Good news-- according to adobe, the sony reader DOES support full PDF:
http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2006/01/sony_reader_and.html

Laurens
01-30-2006, 03:10 PM
The piece they all seem to be missing is that in order to get the average consumer to use such as this (as opposed to just us technophiles) they're going to have to figure out how to get the prices down to something the average consumer will pay. iRex seems to be planning to allow their content providers to foot some of the bill for the end user, perhaps Sony will do something similar, such as offer a few free books from their service to get us started.

Good thoughts. Following through with this, I'm thinking of subsidized, subscription-based pricing models, similiar to those used for selling mobile phones cheaply. For instance, if you purchase, say, a 2-year electronic subscription to The Times, you get the reader for half the price.

Alexander Turcic
01-30-2006, 03:25 PM
Good thoughts. Following through with this, I'm thinking of subsidized, subscription-based pricing models, similiar to those used for selling mobile phones cheaply. For instance, if you purchase, say, a 2-year electronic subscription to The Times, you get the reader for half the price.
I remember reading somewhere that this is exactly what iRex has planned for the Iliad reader. They want to work hand in hand with a couple of mainstream newspaper agencies and offer the reader in conjunction with a e-paper subscription. I don't know if you actually *own* the device or just borrow it for the duration of the subscription, and also if you actually have to pay a one-time introduction fee.

Brian
01-30-2006, 03:54 PM
That's exactly what I think will happen. Something along the lines of how Audible.com offers $100 off "Audible Ready" devices like Treos (http://web.palm.com/promos/audible.jhtml) and iPods with a subscription commitment.

If they could knock 50% off the price with a daily subscription to a major newspaper, a monthly subscription to a popular tech magazine, and give me 2 e-book credits per month, all for $20-$30 per month, I'd buy one.

The more content you consume per month, and the longer your subscription commitment, the lower the initial price for the hardware.

arivero
02-01-2006, 07:29 AM
I can't help wondering just how fast a processor an electronic reader really needs to have. Could they not do the job with, say, a nice, cheap 286 chip? Do they really have to be heavier hitters than my desktop PC? Maybe they'll have an "econo" line in a year or two, once we early-adoptors have defrayed some of their dev costs.

You need fast decompression of pages, and you need font building on the fly. But this kind of gadgets run roughly as fast as a cheap pentium 100 or so, it is not a heavy hitter anymore.

NatCh
02-01-2006, 10:54 AM
Okay, I can see that, I was thinking in terms of pre-loading the "next" page into RAM, so that it can just be flipped to the screen. There would be a longer delay if I wanted to jump to somewhere totallay different in the book, but for the next or previous page, the loading would take place in the background.

But I guess you'd just be trading more sophisticated software to reduce the hardware requirements. I don't know that that would necessarily be an improvement.

Lorphos
02-07-2006, 03:29 AM
Personally I think when reading on a device that glows in the dark there will always be issues with eyestrain.

Charles Gray
02-07-2006, 04:14 AM
Personally I think when reading on a device that glows in the dark there will always be issues with eyestrain.

Well, E-ink doesn't produce any light of it's own, so even if some light source was built into a reader, it would be more like reading a paperback book with one of those book illuminators you can pick up for travel purposes.

That is, IMHO, the biggest advantage of Eink, that it can be read in daylight or indoor light, without causing eyestrain like illuminated displays will.

Snappy!
02-10-2006, 09:00 AM
Maybe they can use Frontlight for eink displays instead of backlighting? Reflective LCDs uses Frontlighting, eg Sharp Zaurus SL5500 PDA. einks are "reflective" in nature, so a frontlight should be good, and probably better than the traditional Reflective LCDs in look-and-feel.

The European
02-17-2006, 02:24 PM
Why is their beiing mentioned a price of 600$ here? Its 400€.

http://www.pocketinfo.nl/artikel/5224

NatCh
02-17-2006, 06:52 PM
I'm afraid I don't read Dutch, so I'm having to rely on AltVista's Babelfish for a translation of the article.

iRex's customer support folks in California told me 650 Euros (776.13 USD) on Jan. 30th -- maybe they've come down already? That'd be nice. 400 Euros (477.62 USD) is much more attractive, but still kinda steep.

It might also be that the lower price is with some sort of discount for a content subscription contract.

Alexander Turcic
02-18-2006, 06:59 AM
Why is their beiing mentioned a price of 600$ here? Its 400€.

http://www.pocketinfo.nl/artikel/5224
Colin covered that earlier:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5916

Best,
Alex

Laurens
02-28-2006, 05:02 AM
They removed the price tag earlier, but the Sony Reader will, indeed, cost $349 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/%20INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Print?ProductSKU=PRS500). (Via Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/27/sonys-ebook-reader-gets-a-price-on-sonystyle-store/).)

CommanderROR
03-06-2006, 06:14 PM
Hi everybody!

I've been looking for a "book-alternative" for quite some time now since i read a lot and am in danger of getting buried under books in my apartment...^^

So far there has been little of actual use for me. Backlighted displays were not really my favourite...readability was fine as long as the room was not too dark (with little surrounding light it became very eye-straining)...but the battery life of most PDAs is not really great.

Now there seems to be a solution...finally..although I have not seen an eink display in action yet it sounds like they are quite good if you belive the various reviewers...although the pictures of the various devices often look a bit "black und grey" instead of black and white...

Now here comes my problem/question:

The Sony Reader is only on for a US release so far (and I'm in Germany...) and "It's a Sony"...which from past experience (MD-Player for instance) is a possibly bad sign. The iRex Iliad looks cool (although it is a bit heavy at almost 400g) and offers a lot of features (some of which I don't really need) but should be available in Germany a lot sooner than the Sony...or maybe not...they state something like "available to business partners in april" on their website...

Now...I'm worried that the Sony won't be available in Germany anytime soon, that it won't read -txt, .doc and similar formats, and that it might have some very crappy "Connect" software like the MD-Player/Recorder I used to use before I bought my Iriver H340...

The Iliad "should" be available in spring, should read the formats I like, but probably won't work with the Sony connect store, so Content could be seriously limited. I really like the iTunes system. (I'm a music student and sometimes need to listen to a piece of music or find out how long a certain movement is or stuff like that, and iTunes REALLY helps there...and the prices are ok as well. I don't like the way it interacts ith iPods...deleting stuff from the Pod and such...but luckily I need not worry about that as i don't use an iPod...^^)

My main concern with the Irex Iliad is the battery-life.
The Sony can "read" several thousand Pages on one battery. That is really what I want, because it makes the Reader "book-worthy" and truly mobile.
The Irex battery-time is given at about 21 hours if you take the "about a week with 3 hours of reading a day" information from the website.
This means that I can't even read one book on the Iliad without recharging....

Please give me some comments on the issues I posted above.
I'm very sorry for making my first post so long...I've been reading a lot in the past and somehow needed a long time to express my ideas...i'll try to do better from now on...we all know how bad reading from an LCD is for the eyes... :rolleyes5

luag
03-06-2006, 11:20 PM
I am personally interested to purchase a Sony Librie from Japan.
Its been hacked, so we can convert our files easily.
and i think i like librie better than reader, for reasons i've already mentioned here: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6031

also, there are words saying sony will open their BBeB format to public.

If you want to know more, please visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/librie/

Laurens
03-07-2006, 01:55 AM
Now...I'm worried that the Sony won't be available in Germany anytime soon

The Reader will be released a few months later in Europe.

NatCh
03-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Hey, CommanderROR,

I was where you are a couple of weeks ago, trying to decide which I liked better: the shackles of Sony or the expense of features I don't need (and some I don't even want) on the iLiad.

Then I noticed the thread (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5623) on the HanLin e-Book (http://www.jinke.com.cn/compagesql/English/embedpro/prodetail.asp?id=20).

After looking at it, I've decided that since it basically combines the hardware simplicity of the Sony, and the format freedom of the iLiad (at a price closer to the Sony than the iLiad), it's my new favored choice.

Screen size is the same as the Sony, they claim 8k page flips as a MINIMUM for the HanLin. Overall it's slightly bigger than the Sony, but still not much bigger than a paperback. No comments from them on battery re-charge time, perhaps it will be less obnoxious than the 4 hours Sony requires.

The V2 model is (currently) scheduled for release in the US and Europe in May. I'll gladly wait the extra month here, and it sounds like they'll actually beat Sony's release there in Germany.

doctorow
03-07-2006, 01:42 PM
Any info on what the HanLin might cost?

CommanderROR
03-07-2006, 01:59 PM
The HanLin V2 should be around 250-300$ in retail, official price is 349$

The questions that remain are:
- Can it read Sony Connect Store books?
- How long will it last battery-wise?
- How well did they implement the Display? The iliad looks a lot more black and white on the pictures than the Sony Reader for example...could be the pictures of course...but the Iliad does have 16 greys instead of 4... :bulb2:

doctorow
03-07-2006, 02:03 PM
- Can it read Sony Connect Store books?
Well, would you need to read Sony Connect Store (BBeB) books? If
the HanLin supports the open source community, it'd be easy to support let's say the Microsoft .lit format, which is much more wide-spread than BBeB (Amazon carries .lit, for instance).

- How long will it last battery-wise?
Good question.

NatCh
03-07-2006, 02:11 PM
According to Jinke's FAQ:

The MSRP for the V2 will be 349 USD, or ~294 Euros.

Battery life at least 8000 page flips. (Sony only claims 7500 as a maximum)

I don't think ANYTHING but Sony can read their format at present. Jinke does not claim their reader will read it anyway, and knowing them, they probably won't let you download from their store unless you put it straight on one of their readers or some such obnoxious thing.

Of course, none of that prevents someone from writing a hack to let the HanLin read BBeB format ....

doctorow
03-07-2006, 02:15 PM
Seriously lack of BBeB support is not a criteria for me when buying an e-book reader. Sony has always made enemies by creating their own proprietary formats - why should I now bother to support them?

NatCh
03-07-2006, 02:29 PM
Oh, I don't have any desire, let alone intention of enabling Sony's paranoid DRM delusions, It just occured to me that if there were any legitimate pressure to do so, somebody will hack the thing.

I don't mind a reasonable copy protection mechanism, but nothing that's going to be more restrictive than I'd find if I buy a paper book. In fact, I wouldn't be the slightest bit upset if they decided to package the texts in SD cards with their hardware-based copy protection implemented (the same stuff that's on DVD's, as it happens), and let any reader that's willing to accomodate it read the rascals.

CommanderROR
03-07-2006, 03:24 PM
Well...Amazon is not too hot with ebooks here in germany.
I don't really like the idea of the sony Connect store either, but at the moment it seems to be the only "real" way to get a large amount of quality books (if they manage to provide what they promise).

In Germany there is no real market for ebooks...all you can do is download "free" ebooks or look for "pirated" books on p2p...with dubious quality and of course dubious legality...

I'm no fan of DRM and stuff like that, but as long as I buy the book to keep (not 60 day stuff...) it's ok.

10000+ books at launch sounds good to me and if Sony really delivers what they promise with the store I'll support it.

Restrictions on the Device side are quite something different...I don't support that at all!!!

NatCh
03-07-2006, 04:37 PM
Ah, now I see your concern. Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/) isn't quite your only option any more. Have a look at these:

http://www.ebooks.com/

http://www.fictionwise.com/

You can also get texts directly from Baen (http://www.baen.com/) Publishing through their Webscription (http://www.webscription.net/) service (you choose what you want to get & pay for -- they don't bug you about it), for cheap and in multiple formats. You can even get some of them before the paper release date.

I know about eReader.com, but they only sell in the format that fits their reading software at the moment. I'm sure there are other sources I don't know about, I'm still pretty new to all this myself.

Perhaps others might suggest more sources for e-texts....

CommanderROR
03-07-2006, 05:39 PM
Well...thanks for the information.
I actually knew that there were some suppliers about...but look at this:

ebooks.com only has 1 book by Terry Pratchett (there are about 30 different books to date) and it is priced at 19$.
Amazon.com has the Hardcovedr of the same book for about 15$...new...not used or anything fishy...so it is not really a good deal.
Gutenberg is ok if you want "free" content...but it's not like they carry the new Fantasy and Science Fiction books I crave... :scholar:

If amazon started selling all their books as ebooks as well...that would be something...but it needs a company like Apple/Sony/Amazon to get publishers to even allow the sale of their books as e-books...royalties and stuff like that have to be discussed...but I suppose once the connect store goes online there will be more companies that offer this service...as long as Sony did not get an exclusive with the big publishers...and we all know Sony... :uhoh2:

NatCh
03-08-2006, 10:50 AM
...as long as Sony did not get an exclusive with the big publishers...and we all know Sony...

Now THERE'S a cheery thought.

luag
03-09-2006, 12:17 AM
what kind of battery Hanlin uses?
internal rechargeable battery or AAAs?

CommanderROR
03-09-2006, 06:32 AM
Internal LiIon

I found this german site that gives more details on the Hanlin...download the doc file...I don't know their source...so it might not be true...if it is...then CHEERS!

http://www.ebookmedia.de/v2.html

Alexander Turcic
03-09-2006, 08:44 AM
Internal LiIon

I found this german site that gives more details on the Hanlin...download the doc file...I don't know their source...so it might not be true...if it is...then CHEERS!

http://www.ebookmedia.de/v2.html
Great find! Thank you for the link.

luag
03-09-2006, 11:00 AM
damn, i personally prefer AAAs for ebook readers :/
because its easier (and cheaper) to replace.

i'll still consider Librie because of this alone hehe

edit: nevermind, it seems like v2 use a common LiOn batteries that we can change quite easily. i just downloaded the doc file. Thx for the link :)

CCDMan
03-09-2006, 11:10 AM
Now...I'm worried that the Sony won't be available in Germany anytime soon, that it won't read -txt, .doc and similar formats

Not sure what you mean by the above. This is from the Sony site:

"The Sony Reader isn’t just about reading eBooks. Using the included CONNECT™ Reader PC Software, you can easily transfer Adobe® PDF documents, BBeB Book, and other text file formats to the Reader."

Unless you ar assuming the SW conversion to BBeB format will be hard to use. I think we need to wait for some real world user reviews before we can decide that. Assuming decent SW, the only way this would be cumbersome would be if one had to convert a whole lot of really short txt documents. For book legnth stuff, the conversion time should be a minor part of the overall experience.

doctorow
03-09-2006, 11:38 AM
Unless you ar assuming the SW conversion to BBeB format will be hard to use. I think we need to wait for some real world user reviews before we can decide that. Assuming decent SW, the only way this would be cumbersome would be if one had to convert a whole lot of really short txt documents. For book legnth stuff, the conversion time should be a minor part of the overall experience.
That depends. Is Sony going to provide the conversion software for any available desktop OS platform? Knowing Sony, they are not so keen in supporting anything but Windows.

Let's see. When I visit their Connect Website (http://www.connect.com) from my Linux desktop, I get redirected to an error page saying:

System Check
We have performed a system check and detected that you need to download and install the item highlighted in red below to use CONNECT. Please do this now and then enter the site again.
*Microsoft® Internet Explorer 5.5+

with a link (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=1e1550cb-5e5d-48f5-b02b-20b602228de6&displaylang=en) to Microsoft IE 6 for Windows.

Doesn't look too good, does it?

luag
03-09-2006, 11:49 AM
here's what i got:

"This service is not currently available in your area.

Please feel free to explore our Sony global sites for other exciting products and services.

If you feel you have reached this page in error, please click here to contact our Customer Service department."

so much for "see the world of sony"...

CommanderROR
03-09-2006, 12:39 PM
I'm not worrierd about not being able to use the software (I'm a windows user and not at all shy when it comes to handling software...even Sony software...^^) but about what it actually supports...

I have not seen .txt mentioned anywhere...it just says "more text formats"...why not go ahead and say what you really mean...and why do you have to convert it? Hanlin and iRex offer native PDF and .txt, .html support and offer the conversion as an option. (at least Hanlin does, iRex does not tell).

The iRex also makes it possible to use the device as "USB-Storage", meaning you don't have to install some proprietary software...good if you like to pick up documents from different computers...installing the software on each one is not really fun...and I hate synchronizing...it's ok for contacts and schedule, but it's pretty weird for actual content (aprt from daily newspapers...)

The Hanlin probably uses a conversion/transfer software as well...but I guess it'll be a lot less "invasive" than the Sony version...we'll see.

I contacted Hanlin (Jinke) and iRex for details...let's see whether they reply... :deal:

NatCh
03-09-2006, 12:40 PM
i personally prefer AAAs for ebook readers :/
because its easier (and cheaper) to replace.

edit: nevermind, it seems like v2 use a common LiOn batteries that we can change quite easily. i just downloaded the doc file. Thx for the link :)

I, too, prefer AA/AAA batteries, I saw 2500 mAh rechargable AA's in the store just the other day, and the most I could find 8 months ago was 2100 mAh -- it's a lot cheaper to replace/upgrade those rascals than the Lithium-Ion variety. Though, I do agree that their being a common, available type mitigates that somewhat. I also prefer the assurance that should I get in a pinch, I can slap in good old, universally available alkaline batts and be good to go.

Perhaps they went with the Lithium-Ion because they seem to hold charge over long periods better than the NiMh AA/AAA batts available to consumers....

luag
03-09-2006, 12:46 PM
dunno...librie claims 10000 page turns with 4 AAAs, compared to Sony Reader's 7500 with LiOn battery...

Theres a picture from the .doc file that shows hanlin has a battery compartment. i just hope v2 uses battery that is easily available.

CommanderROR
03-09-2006, 04:42 PM
I hope Hanlin makes a product that lives up to it's promises...^^

bingle
03-09-2006, 05:58 PM
Here's a new review of the Hanlin device, machine-translated from Russian (via Teleread):
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ru_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-ebook.org%2Fe107%2Fcontent.php%3Farticle.96

It's probably the v8, not the Linux-running v2, but it provides interesting details anyway. It's very much like the Librie, apparently.

Also:
"...the frequency of processor in it is 4 times less than in dormouse."

So... unfavorable comparison to a rodent. That doesn't bode well. ;-)

CommanderROR
03-09-2006, 06:26 PM
The V8 had a really slow (32Mhz or something) CPU, the V2 has 200Mhz and should be ok... :vulcan:

I just read the review...terrible translation..^^
the way I understood it, the Hanlin is actually faster than the Librie...but I could be wrong.
they say the Hanlin is astonishingly good actually...maybe I misunderstood though...
They are speaking about a video comparison...but the video is not in the translated review...I'll have to search for it...

CCDMan
03-09-2006, 11:18 PM
That depends. Is Sony going to provide the conversion software for any available desktop OS platform? Knowing Sony, they are not so keen in supporting anything but Windows.

According to CNET (Nov 2005):

"Clearly, Windows continues to dominate the computing world. About 94.4 percent of all the PCs and other handheld devices shipped in 2003 run Windows, according to the latest stats published by research firm IDC. Apple Computer's Macintosh OS ranked second, with 3.2 percent of the total operating system market, while Linux placed third with 1.4 percent. Other software, such as DOS, made up the final 1 percent."

Why would any sane company waste time supporting an OS that is only 1.4 percent? I know Sony can suck, but I gotta agree with them on this one.

luag
03-09-2006, 11:57 PM
and what about the rumored chinese iLiad that might go as low as 372 usd?

Laurens
03-10-2006, 02:04 AM
Why would any sane company waste time supporting an OS that is only 1.4 percent? I know Sony can suck, but I gotta agree with them on this one.

Agreed. The investment has to be profitable. Even software teams at giants like Sony have to justify their budget.

Jaapjan
03-10-2006, 02:41 AM
According to CNET (Nov 2005):
"Clearly, Windows continues to dominate the computing world. About 94.4 percent of all the PCs and other handheld devices shipped in 2003 run Windows, according to the latest stats published by research firm IDC. Apple Computer's Macintosh OS ranked second, with 3.2 percent of the total operating system market, while Linux placed third with 1.4 percent. Other software, such as DOS, made up the final 1 percent."

Why would any sane company waste time supporting an OS that is only 1.4 percent? I know Sony can suck, but I gotta agree with them on this one.

Agreed. The investment has to be profitable. Even software teams at giants like Sony have to justify their budget.

And what pray tell me is wrong with supporting simply browser standards then? This is not to do with budgets! And you do not have to tell me that Firefox under Linux is lacking in feature support compared to Internet Explorer.

Laurens
03-10-2006, 05:00 AM
And what pray tell me is wrong with supporting simply browser standards then? This is not to do with budgets! And you do not have to tell me that Firefox under Linux is lacking in feature support compared to Internet Explorer.

I was talking about the conversion software, not the Connect web site.

Does iTunes support Linux?

rlauzon
03-10-2006, 06:12 AM
Why would any sane company waste time supporting an OS that is only 1.4 percent? I know Sony can suck, but I gotta agree with them on this one.

From a business point of view, I wouldn't want to artifically limit my market. If using an open standard instead of a proprietary one meets the needs of my customers, that's the way I should go since that will get me the largest market.

The only reason that some companies pursue proprietary formats (like Sony and iTunes) is to lock their customers into their products. To make it very expensive to move to a competitor. Simply put - to limit competition.

From a consumer point of view, proprietary is bad and competition is good. Competition ensures that I will get the most for the least money. Any company that pursues proprietary formats is telling me "we intend to provide you an inferior product for more money."

CommanderROR
03-10-2006, 06:52 AM
Jinke has answered (way ahead of iRex...I've been waiting for almost a week for them to answer, Jinke replied in about 12 hours... :crowngrin )

<Here is their reply:
Thank you for your message.We'd like to answer your questions firstly.
What can you do with the Slave display?
A: The slave display is used for the interactive functions, such as keyboard, search, PDA etc.
Will your device accept Sony Connect-Store Books?
A: No
When will you start selling the V2 in China and when in Germany? Who will distribute the Hanlin V2 in Germany?
A: V2 will be sold in China in June. And the date of releasing in Germany will depend on the situation of our discussion with local agents. Now we’re discussing the business.
The picture of V8 on our Chinese website are all real.And we’ll post the “real life” picture of V8 on our English website soon, thank you for your advice.


Best Regards,>


Customer Support in China seems to be better than in Netherlands... :scholar:

Jaapjan
03-10-2006, 07:04 AM
I was talking about the conversion software, not the Connect web site.

Does iTunes support Linux?

Alright, I reread it and it would seem I indeed misunderstood the gist of what those comments were about.

My apologies. And yes, you are right, I doubt iTunes is available for Linux. Officially anyway.

luag
03-10-2006, 07:20 AM
A: V2 will be sold in China in June.

ow...i thought they were going to release v2 in May.

Alexander Turcic
03-10-2006, 09:00 AM
ow...i thought they were going to release v2 in May.
According to their faq (http://www.jinke.com.cn/compagesql/English/service/index.asp), samples will become available in May.

luag
03-10-2006, 09:57 AM
lol
thanks for clearing that up :D

CommanderROR
03-10-2006, 10:06 AM
The question is...what are "Samples"?

:indian_ch

Alexander Turcic
03-10-2006, 10:10 AM
I'd say samples refer to press-release copies for previews. Of course I could also be wrong ;)

Laurens
03-10-2006, 10:32 AM
Jinke has answered (way ahead of iRex...I've been waiting for almost a week for them to answer, Jinke replied in about 12 hours... :crowngrin )

Don't expect an answer from iRex beyond a "thank you for your interest" canned response. They focus primarily on businesses, not consumers.

CCDMan
03-10-2006, 11:10 AM
From a business point of view, I wouldn't want to artificially limit my market. If using an open standard instead of a proprietary one meets the needs of my customers
You must not be in business....
Linux meets the needs of 1.4 % of the customers and to serve those they either have to:

1)Write new conversion SW which may not be worth it for a lousy 1.4 % of the market. And indeed it probably is not even that since many Linux users
also have Windows machines.

or

2) Allow direct import of standard file formats. I agree that this would be nicer it but does take some added capability within the device, which will add to the device cost. They clearly decided that this was cheaper to do in SW. It will also be more versatile as new formats can be added much more easily.

The only reason that some companies pursue proprietary formats (like Sony and iTunes) is to lock their customers into their products.
Largely but not entirely true - if they were trying to lock customers in totally, they would not even offer conversion by SW. I agree that Sony has been pretty stupid along these lines in the past (witness beta and memory stick) - and it has cost them. Perhaps the fact that they have gone to SD on this device indicates that they have come to their senses to a degree. Time will tell. I should point out that insofar as the DRM part of the format, this may well be driven at least as much by their content providers. Unlike music and video, for books this is pretty much external to Sony.

From a consumer point of view, proprietary is bad and competition is good. Competition ensures that I will get the most for the least money.

Sure, what is good for stockholders is bad for consumers. This is often true and only sometimes avoidable. There is a delicate balance between making a device open (which sells more devices) and closed (which sells more content). Since most companies make far more from content, it is not suprising to see manufacturers go the way they have. Why do you think printers are so cheap? The money is in the ink. This is nothing new and is called capitalism. Not great until you consider the alternatives.

doctorow
03-10-2006, 11:14 AM
How about releasing all the specs (which they are rumored to do for the BBeB format) and to make the available tools open-source? Sure enough the Linux community would write their own tools then.

CCDMan
03-10-2006, 11:31 AM
How about releasing all the specs (which they are rumored to do for the BBeB format) and to make the available tools open-source?
Sounds good to me. I suspect even just the specs for the format would be enough. It will be interesting to see what happens once the device and content is available. I suspect there are gonna be some surprises, both good and bad.

From what I can see now, the Sony is the best option for my usage (recreational reading only). But this stuff has a way of not being what we expected, so I will reserve judgement until I see a few real world user reviews...

Take Care

Laurens
03-10-2006, 11:32 AM
Open formats are more important than open-source, IMO.

CommanderROR
03-10-2006, 12:47 PM
not really...open formats are cool, but open source gives all those programmers out there a chance to give us open format readers for the device, and they can
create new software whenever the formats change...and make it free as well.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the best programmers out there are freelance/hobby programmers...all those guys that install linux on strange devices like Windows PDAs, PSPs and smartphones...of course it's more or less a waste of time, but think about what those guys can do and could do to create useful software for all of us...^^

Laurens
03-10-2006, 02:13 PM
not really...open formats are cool, but open source gives all those programmers out there a chance to give us open format readers for the device, and they can
create new software whenever the formats change...and make it free as well.

Not quite. Data represents actual work done by a user. Not being able to get to your data means that work is lost. Hence, more and more governments demand open formats.

An application (should the source not be available) can be recreated by any team of capable programmers, OTOH.

For example, it's far more important that HTML is an open standard than that Firefox is an open-source application.

doctorow
03-10-2006, 02:18 PM
Nevertheless, it shouldn't "hurt" Sony to release their Windows converter as open source and to thus give other programmers an idea how to write converter tools for other platforms.

We've all heard the rumors that Sony is going to release the specs for BBeB. However, I won't believe it before I see the specs with my own eyes.

Laurens
03-10-2006, 02:25 PM
Nevertheless, it shouldn't "hurt" Sony to release their Windows converter as open source and to thus give other programmers an idea how to write converter tools for other platforms.

Except if it gives insight into how their DRM works they shouldn't. I'm sure the publishers would not want that.

doctorow
03-10-2006, 02:32 PM
Except if it gives insight into how their DRM works they shouldn't. I'm sure the publishers would not want that.
That depends. If implemented correctly, they shouldn't have anything to fear even if the converter tool is published as open source. It's like releasing your app's keyfile algorithm that is based on a known public-private-key algorithm such as Elgamal or RSA - as long as no one has access to the private key, the algorithm alone is useless for cracking the underlying code/data.

Laurens
03-10-2006, 02:51 PM
That depends. If implemented correctly, they shouldn't have anything to fear even if the converter tool is published as open source. It's like releasing your app's keyfile algorithm that is based on a known public-private-key algorithm such as Elgamal or RSA - as long as no one has access to the private key, the algorithm alone is useless for cracking the underlying code/data.

Even so, the algorithm does give insight how the scheme works. A "revealing" bug in their software that leads to the format being cracked (the way DVD Jon managed to crack CSS because of a bug in a third-party video player) might make them liable for damages. The major stakeholders in their DRM are not Sony themselves, but the publishers.

doctorow
03-10-2006, 03:05 PM
History has shown many times that there ain't no security through obscurity. If their DRM system has a bug, it'll be cracked, no matter whether it's open-source or not (in the latter case crackers will use tools such as IDA (http://www.datarescue.com/idabase/) to reveal the underlying code). If Sony truly wants to convince us and their publisher partners that their system is fool-proof, they better make sure their system is bug-free and perhaps analyzed by some respected cryptologists.

Laurens
03-10-2006, 03:22 PM
History has shown many times that there ain't no security through obscurity. If their DRM system has a bug, it'll be cracked, no matter whether it's open-source or not (in the latter case crackers will use tools such as IDA (http://www.datarescue.com/idabase/) to reveal the underlying code). If Sony truly wants to convince us and their publisher partners that their system is fool-proof, they better make sure their system is bug-free and perhaps analyzed by some respected cryptologists.

Agreed. And I can safely predict their DRM will be cracked, just as most other protection schemes have been cracked in the past. I'm not talking about the technical aspect but about the potential liability due to unintentionally revealing too much about your DRM by opening the source.

As long as they open the BBeB spec, there will be some savvy coder who'll write a library for it. (In fact, there already are BBeB tools.) This is not rocket science. Besides, I can't imagine Sony embracing OSS all of a sudden.

doctorow
03-10-2006, 03:34 PM
Besides, I can't imagine Sony embracing OSS all of a sudden.
That is probably true, they most certainly won't do it. Too bad. You're also right, it's perhaps easier for publishers to sue Sony for releasing buggy DRM code open-source than for crackers managing to circumvent their "invincible", obscure protection mechanisms.

CommanderROR
03-10-2006, 07:29 PM
a bit OT, but still interesting:

has anyone ever seen what kind of "cover" the Iliad uses? I've only ever seen it open...I have no idea where the cover is attached, what it weighs, whether you can "fold it back" or have to take it off...I hope it works like hte Hanlins cover...that seems to be rather well done judging from the V8 videos.
A device with a touchscreen is always a bit of a problem...screen protectors are always important there in my opinion...and transporting it without "hardcover" would probably not be a good idea... :uhoh2:

If I decide to get the Ilead I certainly hope brando will make screen-protectors for them...I simply love their "no-glue" solution and their simply excellent and tough foils.

rlauzon
03-10-2006, 08:37 PM
You must not be in business....
Linux meets the needs of 1.4 % of the customers and to serve those they either have to:

1)Write new conversion SW which may not be worth it for a lousy 1.4 % of the market. And indeed it probably is not even that since many Linux users
also have Windows machines.

I don't have a Windows machine. Well, I take that back. I think I have an old machine in the closet that still has Windows on it - if it still fires up.

If they would have written the software in a cross-platform language - like Java - then they would be able to get 100% of the market instead of 80% (which is closer to the real Windows market).

2) Allow direct import of standard file formats. I agree that this would be nicer it but does take some added capability within the device, which will add to the device cost. They clearly decided that this was cheaper to do in SW. It will also be more versatile as new formats can be added much more easily.

All they needed to do was choose a standard format. Making the device handle that format takes just as much resources as handling a proprietary one. No added cost.

Sure, what is good for stockholders is bad for consumers. This is often true and only sometimes avoidable.

Not usually. What's bad for the consumers doesn't get sold. Companies that make products that don't sell have mad stockholders.

CommanderROR
03-12-2006, 03:32 PM
Just a suggestion:

Why not compile a list of Questions we all have about the new readers (Iliad, Sony and Hanlin V2) and them send them to the companies in the name of the Forum...

Maybe that is a good way to get answers from people like iRex? If they see there is interest from a larger audience they might be more willing to reply.

Snappy!
03-14-2006, 01:37 AM
How about releasing all the specs (which they are rumored to do for the BBeB format) and to make the available tools open-source? Sure enough the Linux community would write their own tools then.

I agree with the open-source part. That will allow commercial and non-commercial parties to write their own tools. I write code myself, and a good part of them are freeware tools for windows, wince (HPC & pocketpc) and Palm.

I believe you didn't mean to refer only to linux communities so tot I should clarify that open-source can benefit not just linux community but also other coding communities. :)

Snappy!
03-14-2006, 01:42 AM
Not quite. Data represents actual work done by a user. Not being able to get to your data means that work is lost. Hence, more and more governments demand open formats.

An application (should the source not be available) can be recreated by any team of capable programmers, OTOH.

For example, it's far more important that HTML is an open standard than that Firefox is an open-source application.

Good point there! Actually to write a new tool for a product like say Sony Reader or iRex iLiad, I just need the SDK to be released and I can write something to work with it. *IF* I want to modify the product itself, only then would I want the OS to be open-sourced.

Alexander Turcic
03-14-2006, 03:27 AM
Just a suggestion:

Why not compile a list of Questions we all have about the new readers (Iliad, Sony and Hanlin V2) and them send them to the companies in the name of the Forum...

Maybe that is a good way to get answers from people like iRex? If they see there is interest from a larger audience they might be more willing to reply.
Good idea! Let me think about it today.

TadW
03-15-2006, 05:34 AM
Maybe that is a good way to get answers from people like iRex? If they see there is interest from a larger audience they might be more willing to reply.
Nick just joined. This (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6127) is a good place for asking questions to begin with. :)

flamaest
08-05-2007, 03:20 PM
So now that the Sony reader can be had for $50 from a USA credit card, seems like the $750 iliad's fate is umm... questionable?

F.

Adam B.
08-05-2007, 07:02 PM
So now that the Sony reader can be had for $50 from a USA credit card, seems like the $750 iliad's fate is umm... questionable?

F.

The Sony reader and iLiad are definitely marketed at different audiences. For those who want an iLiad, the price of the sony really don't have any impact on their decision.

DeGodefroi
08-06-2007, 10:27 AM
Amnd the Sony is US only.
The rest of the world will also use the Iliad.

JSWolf
08-06-2007, 10:30 AM
Yes, I agree that the ilIad and Sony are two different markets. If you want a reader just for reading books, the Sony is better. But the iLiad is better at PDF and it does a lot more. So before you choose, make sure you know what it is you want to do so you get the correct device for your needs. And the iLiad will read books just fine too using MobiPocket.

Do MobiPocket books have line spaces since it was origianlly for PDA type small screens?

HarryT
08-07-2007, 02:22 AM
Yes, I agree that the ilIad and Sony are two different markets. If you want a reader just for reading books, the Sony is better. But the iLiad is better at PDF and it does a lot more. So before you choose, make sure you know what it is you want to do so you get the correct device for your needs. And the iLiad will read books just fine too using MobiPocket.

Agreed entirely - that's why I now have both :grin:.

Do MobiPocket books have line spaces since it was origianlly for PDA type small screens?

There's nothing inherent in the format which says that they have to - it's down to the creator. The BD books I've converted to MobiPocket format certainly don't have blank lines between the paragraphs.

JSWolf
08-07-2007, 06:15 AM
But do mobiPocket books you purchase withthe DRMhave the line spaces. I know eReader books do.

HarryT
08-07-2007, 06:34 AM
Dunno - I've never bought one. Baen's DRM-free MobiPocket books don't have blank lines.

JSWolf
08-07-2007, 07:02 AM
I don't understand why nobody can answer that question. Has nobody here ever bought a DRM MobiPocket book?

Adam B.
08-07-2007, 07:07 AM
I don't think there is an answer. I've seen non-drm books with and without it. The very few that I've purchased don't, but it's always up to the publisher of the ebook. It has nothing to do with the format itself. I'm sure there are some books that have it.

You can usually preview a book before you purchase it from the mobipocket store. That will show you how it's formatted, and give you your answer.

JSWolf
08-07-2007, 10:35 AM
I know eReader books have the paragraph spacing. When I downloaded a few of their free books, they all had them.

Shaggy
08-08-2007, 10:06 AM
Based on comments I've seen from iRex in the past, things like line spacing, justification, and hyphenation, are set by the publisher when the mobipocket book is created. There currently is not a way in the Mobipocket Reader application to change those settings. So to answer your question, it really depends on the individual ebook and how it was created. Some will have them, some won't.

Mobipocket controls development on the reader application, so if it's going to change it'll be something Mobipocket has to do, iRex doesn't have any control over it. It'd be nice if those things were user options, rather than pre-determined by the publisher.

JSWolf
08-08-2007, 10:51 AM
I have never seen any purchased books in BBeB or LIT that have extra line spacing. eReader books do have the line spacing. So eReader format is right out. What I might do is contact MobiPocket and ask since I cannot get a definitive answer.

ig88
08-08-2007, 10:47 PM
I have purchased about twenty books from mobipicket.

No lines or spaces between paragraphs.

JSWolf
08-08-2007, 11:45 PM
I have purchased about twenty books from mobipicket.

No lines or spaces between paragraphs.
Then MobiPocket is ok as an ebook format. It seems to be eReader that's the one that's lousy. Line spaces bah!

HarryT
08-09-2007, 02:12 AM
With MobiPocket it's definitely down to the book creator. Most of my MP books don't have blank lines between the paragraphs, but I've just started reading one which does.

canicula
08-11-2007, 06:55 AM
It seems to be eReader that's the one that's lousy. Line spaces bah!

I'm confused. What do you mean by line spaces? I've got books from the Sony Store and ones I've done myself in Bookdesigner on my Sony Reader that just look like paper books on screen. What's the problem?

Ian

HarryT
08-11-2007, 07:23 AM
Jon doesn't like books which have blank lines between the paragraphs. Some books use blank lines to separate paragraphs, rather than indenting the first line. Doesn't bother me either way, I must admit.

canicula
08-11-2007, 07:47 AM
Jon doesn't like books which have blank lines between the paragraphs. Some books use blank lines to separate paragraphs, rather than indenting the first line. Doesn't bother me either way, I must admit.

Ah. A quick check of the books on my Reader from the Connect Store seems to indicate that the books from the Classic range have extra lines whereas the books I've purchased from the normal range use paragraph indenting rather than extra lines. I checked about 5 from each range.

Ian

JSWolf
08-11-2007, 10:45 AM
Ah. A quick check of the books on my Reader from the Connect Store seems to indicate that the books from the Classic range have extra lines whereas the books I've purchased from the normal range use paragraph indenting rather than extra lines. I checked about 5 from each range.

Ian
The Classics are books they've gotten from sources such as Project Gutenberg and left the line spaces in even though it's simple to remove the extra blank lines between paragraphs. I can do it in less then 5 min in Word.

Bunter
08-20-2007, 05:29 AM
I think both sony and especially irex haven't actually figured out the audience they are marketing their products for...

n@meless1
08-28-2007, 08:54 PM
Bah..

In my opinion:
E-book reader: a device that *have to* replace a "classic" book.
Nothing less, nothing more.

It should be:

- Simple, like a book...with basic features (files "library", bookmarks, index, options) and basic connectivity (usb.)
- Based on e-paper technology (with obvious consequences), with the best visual quality as possible
- Unix OS and with support for the most popular text formats (pdf, etc..)
- Thin and light
- With a "software suite", so that you can customise\adjust your e-book files (for example to create a "linked" index that is missing)

They could sell tons of a device like that, fist of all because it surely wouldn't cost 400-600 Euro, second because hw and "form-factor" wouldn't suffer from useless features:rolleyes:

Will a thing like that ever be released?:rolleyes:
Anyone here that agree with me?:poke:

Bunter
08-29-2007, 04:28 AM
Sounds like you are describing iLiad with replaced contentLister and standby mode :)

HarryT
08-29-2007, 04:36 AM
The cost of the machine is primarily dependent on the cost of the screen, and has very little to do with what "features" the machine does or does not offer. Any current machine that uses the same screen as the iLiad is going to cost in the same "ballpark" that the iLiad does.

n@meless1
08-29-2007, 05:45 AM
The cost of the machine is primarily dependent on the cost of the screen, and has very little to do with what "features" the machine does or does not offer. Any current machine that uses the same screen as the iLiad is going to cost in the same "ballpark" that the iLiad does.
Than take that (good) screen and make a basic, simple (and functional) e-book reader, as I've listed above..
I think cutting off those useless (for its main purpose) features can impact both on the hw (simpler circuitry and less resources needed--->cheaper and less performant hw, less heat, less "connectors", maybe thinner and lighter case) and the sw (non affecting the price)..

In your opinion what % of the iLiad price is due to the e-paper screen? More than 50%?:knife:

HarryT
08-29-2007, 05:56 AM
Than take that (good) screen and make a basic, simple (and functional) e-book reader, as I've listed above..
I think cutting off those useless (for its main purpose) features can impact both on the hw (simpler circuitry and less resources needed--->cheaper and less performant hw, less heat, less "connectors", maybe thinner and lighter case) and the sw (non affecting the price)..

In your opinion what % of the iLiad price is due to the e-paper screen? More than 50%?:knife:

In terms of its manufacturing cost, the screen probably accounts for 80% of the cost of the machine. If you break the screen, it's generally approximately the same price to buy a new machine as it is to have the screen replaced.

I'm honestly not sure what features of the iLiad you regard as redundant - can you elaborate? The iLiad is basically a machine for reading and annotating documents - that's what it's sold for, and that's what it does. The fact that it runs Linux and you can install additional applications on it really doesn't affect that at all, and doesn't make the machine any more expensive.

NatCh
08-29-2007, 10:54 AM
~80% is where I'd guesstimate the iLiad's screen cost to be too. In my opinion (get your own!), the only bragware I see on the iLiad, is the WiFi, but I consider that one debatable, depending on what the user wants the device for. For books, it's a bit excessive, for periodicals, especially dailies, I don't think it is excessive at all.

But the good news is that new technologies eventually mature (barring asteroid strikes and the like), and become easier and cheaper to make, so if the price of the iLiad's display really is, as we believe, in the neighborhood of 80% of the device's cost, then we may expect the device cost to drop radically as the cost of making the displays does so. :nice:

Immaturity is a problem that generally does get better in time, be it people or products. Me? I'm proud to be the exception that proves the rule. :nana:

Snas
08-31-2007, 04:40 AM
For me the main advantage of the iLiad is that I can update my newspaper since a wifi access point every hour...

And for the update since a cable, I do not need to to switch on my pc because it is made with a ethernet cable...

I really hope that our initiative will manage to convince the other newspapers in the world because it is really a pleasure to read the last news on the iLiad :p

Nigel
10-25-2007, 03:40 PM
Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the iLiad to the new Sony 505? While I know others will have various concerns, for me, readability is the most important point.

I don't want to spend the extra for the iLiad. However, if the reading experience is substantially better, I'd rather do it now than after owning the Sony.

I've seen a Sony 500 and it looks pretty good though a bit small. The new one is supposed to be 20% clearer but I don't know how to quantify this.

I live on an out-island in Hawaii where there are few stores and am unlikely to be able to see either the new Sony or the iRex before purchase.

Gogolo
10-25-2007, 04:39 PM
Nigel, the biggest difference is screen size. Id say: if you only read fiction books, get the sony. If you read a lot of A4 size dokuments and want to annotate, get the iLiad.
Hope I can help you. Greetings from cold cold Switzerland :rolleyes:
Olivier

quek
10-25-2007, 08:34 PM
Hi Nigel

I have just bought the Iliad (previously owned a PRS500). The 2 devices are fundamentally different. PRS500/505 is extremely good for the casual user for reading fiction because of its long battery life and smaller size.

Iliad is a work tool. The important point is that viewing of pdf files is not a problem on it. I believe that the slightly better display on PRS505 is not really going to enhance the reading experience a lot. After a while, our eyes will get used to it anyway. :D Also, the battery life is really not so bad. I used mine for reading in trains while commuting to work(about 40mins a day, page turning+touch pad) and turn it off after that. Charged it 2 days ago and now it is still at almost 80%.

In fact, Adams has just released the beta version of minimo browser. This will really bring Iliad to an even higher level because now we can have web surfing similar to that of using a pc.

Best regards
Quek

Nigel
10-26-2007, 05:15 AM
Thanks to you both. Didn't know about minimo.

Started to think of iLiad as sort of a low power, more portable, Linux tablet with exceptional readability but realize it doesn't have the flexibility of control, making it a different kind of animal. A little like if Apple kept going with Newton but didn't fund a software group.

I'm getting hints that it can be a client or remote desktop to a PC. Is this true?

Probably too obscure, but has anyone tried to control a Squeezebox from an iLiad? http://www.slimdevices.com/index.html

Gogolo; You may be cold but you can buy anything made in the world, see great art, hear great music and visit at least three foreign cultures within a days drive from your home. I think that here, with every day at around 27 C we lose a few IQ points. Paradise has its tradeoffs.

astra
11-02-2007, 09:46 AM
The iLiad is basically a machine for reading and annotating documents - that's what it's sold for, and that's what it does. .

Sorry for being extraordinary dense.
I don't understand how this feature works.

When I read a pbook, I can write notes on it and underline/encircle words or lines. Then later when I re-read the material I can see my "notes" that I left to emphasize the most important things on a page.
What is a point to make notes and underscore lines when I read the same book but in PDF format in the iLiad? I mean, let's say in 1 year time after reading the book i would like to go through it again and see what I underlined....how can I do it? Can I save the notes somehow?

tribble
11-02-2007, 09:49 AM
The scribbles in the PDF files are saved as a seperate XML file on the iLiad and get displayed on the iLiad on the PDF. When you want ts "save" your scribbles in the PDF, you can use the Compagnion Software from iRex to merge the scribles int a new PDF file or even better use the community made java merger: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9535&highlight=java+scribble

nekokami
11-02-2007, 09:58 AM
Started to think of iLiad as sort of a low power, more portable, Linux tablet with exceptional readability but realize it doesn't have the flexibility of control, making it a different kind of animal. A little like if Apple kept going with Newton but didn't fund a software group.
I think it's somewhere between these two. I do use it in much the same way that I used to use my Newton, but because it's Linux, the potential software pool is much larger.

astra
11-02-2007, 10:05 AM
A few more questions:

Does iLiad have a similar bookmarking feature as Sony Reader?

When I switch off iLiad and turn it back on (I know it takes about 1 minutes to boot up), will it start at the same place where I finished to read or at least will I be able to find this book and the place where I finished reading easily?

Can I change font size in a similar way I can do it on Sony reader? such as small/medium/large?

tribble
11-02-2007, 10:22 AM
When I switch off iLiad and turn it back on (I know it takes about 1 minutes to boot up), will it start at the same place where I finished to read or at least will I be able to find this book and the place where I finished reading easily?
In the settings you can tell the iLiad to open your last read document where you left off after booting.

Generally the iLiad saves the position where you left off reading in any document.

Can I change font size in a similar way I can do it on Sony reader? such as small/medium/large?
Not in PDF files, there you can only zoom in.
In Mobipocket and TXT files you can change the font size to various sizes. Not as nicely as with the Cybooks UI, but more fontsizes than the sony.

astra
11-02-2007, 11:02 AM
Good news.
Because I have read somewhere that earlier versions of iLiad software didn't have this feature, or maybe I misundertood...
I understand that I cannot change font size in pdf.

nekokami
11-02-2007, 12:14 PM
Yes, you can set the iLiad to return to the same document you left, in the same place. (This doesn't work with the minimo HTML reader, as far as I know, but works with ipdf and FBReader.) You can adjust font sizes in all the readers except ipdf, but you can zoom in ipdf. FBReader lets you pick the font by number. minimo has "bigger" and "smaller" font buttons on screen that you can tap with the stylus.

sianon
11-02-2007, 05:58 PM
Good news.
Because I have read somewhere that earlier versions of iLiad software didn't have this feature, or maybe I misundertood...
I understand that I cannot change font size in pdf.

you certainly can enlarge the font size in PDF and this is very easy to do.

ig88
11-02-2007, 07:58 PM
you certainly can enlarge the font size in PDF and this is very easy to do.
How can you do this?

sianon
11-03-2007, 02:50 AM
How can you do this?

simply click on the icon with the little arrow pointing upwards and then drag he stylus diagonally across the text and it will increase in size.

tribble
11-03-2007, 05:01 AM
Sianon, you are referring to zooming in. It does enlarge the fontsize, but is not generally referred to as enlarging the fontsize. When i refer to enlarging font size, i expect the text to reflow, that i do not have to scroll sideways at any given time. And i assume, this is the general understang of the phrase.

sianon
11-03-2007, 06:26 PM
Sianon, you are referring to zooming in. It does enlarge the fontsize, but is not generally referred to as enlarging the fontsize. When i refer to enlarging font size, i expect the text to reflow, that i do not have to scroll sideways at any given time. And i assume, this is the general understang of the phrase.

True Tribble, however I have found that I have been able to size text so that I can read it comfortably with all text on the one page. At the worst, I have had to go into landscape mode.

ig88
11-05-2007, 01:23 PM
Right.

But it is NOT enlarging the font size, and should not be sold or presented that way. That leads to confusion and misunderstandings.

It is zooming the PAGE CONTENT, not enlarging the font size. Two very different things.

And you are correct, more often than not you can zoom the page/crop the margins out of the view and read the entire page at once comfortably. MOST of the time.

Nigel
11-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Right.

But it is NOT enlarging the font size, and should not be sold or presented that way. That leads to confusion and misunderstandings.

It is zooming the PAGE CONTENT, not enlarging the font size. Two very different things.

And you are correct, more often than not you can zoom the page/crop the margins out of the view and read the entire page at once comfortably. MOST of the time.

I'm a new Iliad owner, got it a few days ago. I was pretty shocked that I couldn't enlarge the font size on PDFs with the click of a button. Does anyone know if this is planned for a future software update?

A pretty quick workaround though is to process the file in BookDesigner, setting it for a larger font. This appears to only work if the PDF is text only.

I apologize in advance if there is a better way. Again, I'm very new with this machine.

ig88
11-11-2007, 06:28 PM
I'm a new Iliad owner, got it a few days ago. I was pretty shocked that I couldn't enlarge the font size on PDFs with the click of a button. Does anyone know if this is planned for a future software update?

You have to realize the nature of the PDF format and what it was designed to do. It was designed SPECIFICALLY to maintain the EXACT layout of a page, regardless of the software you have.

Since enlarging the font size changes the flow of text (and then of course other items of a page), what you are asking for is exactly opposite of what the PDF format was designed to do.

As you have found, the only way to change the font size is to create a new document.

narve
11-12-2007, 12:13 PM
You have to realize the nature of the PDF format and what it was designed to do. It was designed SPECIFICALLY to maintain the EXACT layout of a page, regardless of the software you have.

Since enlarging the font size changes the flow of text (and then of course other items of a page), what you are asking for is exactly opposite of what the PDF format was designed to do.

As you have found, the only way to change the font size is to create a new document.

Exactly. In fact, PDF is an extremely lousy format for ebooks. HTML is a lot better, and the ebook-formats are the best. PDF is unfortunately very necessary, since lots of content is available in PDF format and it easy to convert to.

tirsales
11-12-2007, 12:27 PM
To be fair: PDF was never meant for applications like eReaders. And for those purposes it was meant to be used, it is extremely useful.

veeraganesh
12-19-2007, 08:33 PM
Hi every one. I bought PRS505 a week ago and I am very unhappy with it. I do have lots of technical ebooks and they are not rendered properly on PRS. I am planning to get a Iliad, but will it solve my problem? I want to read my Technical ebooks without any problems.

nekokami
12-19-2007, 08:50 PM
The screen is a bit larger, and there is native PDF support. Are your technical books in PDF format? You might want to try printing a page at the size that will display on the iLiad and see if you'll be satisfied with the display. You also have the option of viewing in landscape mode and scrolling, but you only see part of a page at a time that way. It works well for single-column text, but is kind of a pain for two columns or more, though there are variant PDF readers that can make this easier.

If you don't like the contrast on the Sony screen, though, the iLiad isn't going to be much different. So it depends on what you don't like about the Sony.

igorsk
12-19-2007, 09:46 PM
Try PDFLRF before returning it.