Howdy Folks,

Thinking about making the jump and getting an ebook reader. Not necessarily because I think that any of the products out there are "there" yet for what I really want, but I want to support the technology so that the companies will eventually release what I fully want.

What I really want: Wifi and/or cell network (like the iphone), SDHC, 16 gb internal memory, touch screen, with note taking software that automatically renders mathematical equations into the LaTeX typesetting langauge, small sized ultra portable reader (size of sony reader but as thin as ipod) with ultra long lasting battery, backlight, rotate/zoom/next page gestures that work very fast like in the new macbook/macbook pros, audio voice recording of memos, free-form anotation of pdfs, with automatic synching with a desktop PC/mac, very fast searching of many gigabytes of pdfs, no drm and ability to access the Linux shell and/or compile my own programs and scripts for the device.

Well, as you all know, no products achieve all of that ambitious list, but maybe one day.

I am in Canada, so the amazons kindle wireless service isn't available for me, but the features that I *really* need are:

- Ability to read mathematics, physics and technical pdfs that I have downloaded from the web
- External memory support (SDHC)
- Touch screen (I really would like to be able to take notes as well)

I am open to any and all suggestions, comments and discussion about this! I have a bit of a problem with acquiring computers, so I have a couple of laptops I could always use to read media in a portable fashion, but I really like the idea of being able to whip out the ebook reader to read a book or take some notes.

I am thinking of the Sony PRS-700, but a few questions if anyone can answer them:

- How does it do at displaying Mathematics, especially those typeset with LaTex, or multi-column scientific PDF documents downloaded scientific journals?

- Can you take notes on it with the stylus? What format do you download the notes from the device in?

Anyone have any suggestions? Do you think the PRS-700 will be suitable for reading math, physics and other technical documents?

Thanks for the input!! :book2: :bookworm:

I don't know the PRS-700, but from what you describe, you should have a look at the iRex devices or a tablet PC or somesuch. This has been discussed here (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37744) as well, I think you'll get some answers in that thread.

The iRex devices - specifically the DR1000S - would be hugely better for your needs than the PRS-700, but I suspect that a Tablet PC would be even better.

I second Harry:
1 - Tabletpc
2 - Irex DR1000S

I just had a somewhat similar conversation over here:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42794

I gotta say, those tablet PC's are pretty nifty, and if you're doing a lot calculating/science applications, having the ability to jump from your PDF to SPSS or whatever other statistical program you're using would likely outweigh the weight issues that come with a full computer (at least IMO).

(And I say that as someone who really likes his DR 1000s quite a lot.)

I am on my tablet pc in bed now
It rocks.

How does it do at displaying Mathematics, especially those typeset with LaTex, or multi-column scientific PDF documents downloaded scientific journals?
Currently, none of the eInk based readers have a TeX reader available. The file formats available on most of the current crop of eInk readers are based off of various XML implementations (HTML, Mobi, ePub, Lit, LRF) with pretty much zero support for even MathML (not that MathML is all that capable, you're better off converting TeX formulas to images (http://www.apsr.edu.au/publications/LaTeX-preservation.pdf) and inserting the images).

well, I decided to get the Sony PRS-700, the getting either the iRex Illiad or S1000 to Canada would have resulted in just over 2x the cost for the Illiad and way over 2x the cost for the S1000. Tipping the scales at well over $1000 CAD definitely breaks the grad student budget, at least for me, and I found the lack of SDHC cards disturbing, as well as some negative reviews, and then, I found those devices kind of a put off. If I want carry something around that is the size of a tablet PC I think I would just rather carry the tablet pc!

Hopefully I can read math/tech journals with some conversion on PRS700, if not, then more room for novels. The price of SDHC cards is so cheap, I got a 4gb one for $13. My entire collection of thousands of technical pdfs is only around 1.6 gb, and I don't need this thing to act as a reference, just to read a select few at a time, so if they take up more size in conversion, so be it.

Thanks for the discussion, just going out the door to pick up the 700 now,

reso

Currently, none of the eInk based readers have a TeX reader available.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "TeX reader". Isn't .tex source always processed to create something else in order to be viewed anyway... with PDF being one of the standards? Surely, with the right LaTeX package to tweak the page size, etc., this is a problem at all if the reader supports PDF.

For formats other than PDF yeah, you'd be stuck converting to mathML, and I couldn't get the XML with MathML, even if it looked right on my web browser, ever to look good in any XML-based ebook format in some of my conversions.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic... I'm an academic. I read a lot of stuff with mathematical symbols in it, journal articles, etc, and I read them on my 505. The PDF support is better in the 700, so if I'm doing fine, you're doing fine. Browse around these forums for various options, however, for stripping whitespace off of PDFs, breaking up multiple columns into single columns, etc., and you'll have a lot more tools at your disposal. At least for non-DRMed PDFs, I can usually find the right tool for the job.

For most journal article PDFs, I simply strip off the whitespace with SoPDF (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32066) or Acrobat. For those that have multiple columns, I might resort to PaperCrop (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31677), or sometimes just PDFLRF (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13135) will do what I need well enough, though they may resort in larger file sizes since they convert to image-based files (the upside is that it looks exactly like the original, however).

I'm not sure what you mean by a "TeX reader". Isn't .tex source always processed to create something else in order to be viewed anyway... with PDF being one of the standards?
Bah ... I'm more out of touch than I thought. I had assumed that there had been more updated variants of onscreen viewers for TeX files (like info for texinfo files) created in the last decade or so ...

I'm not sure what you mean by a "TeX reader". Isn't .tex source always processed to create something else in order to be viewed anyway... with PDF being one of the standards? Surely, with the right LaTeX package to tweak the page size, etc., this is a problem at all if the reader supports PDF.


Yes, I just figured the person making that comment didn't fully understand latex or tex and left it at that. To answer, yes, both LaTeX and TeX (pronounced 'lay-tech' and 'tech' respectively) are typesetting languages that are compiled to produce postscript or pdf output. TeX is the original language, and LaTeX is a suite of macro add-ons that have become the quote-un-quote "standard"*, and both are oriented primarily towards typesetting of mathematics into print. Any academic journal in mathematics or the physical science with many equations will not only accept articles written in LaTex, but will usually provide style files which will automatically typeset the document into the exact style specifications required by that journal with no additional work by the author other than including that style file. If you are writing a document for submission to an academic journal, which typically does use a lot of mathematics, and it does not accept latex, I would be wary, as it is likely a publication on par with the Southern Manitoba Bulletin for Amateur Astrology and UFO sightings**.

In the last year or so, the default rendering engine for nearly all latex distributions has become PDF, so postscript files of journal articles will likely become a thing of the past. (Anyone involved in professional typesetting and I can debate the merits of this decision to no end. I for one am *extremely* glad that the postscript format, and its step-child encapsulated postscript, a.k.a. eps, are both now completely eliminated from my publishing work-flow.)

To clear things up: in my original post, I said that I wanted a device that would translate hand-written mathematics directly into the latex language. This would be simply amazing for anyone in the physical sciences or mathematics. You could scrawl some mathematics into a tablet, and it would automatically be translated into the language you use to typeset mathematics. I don't think this is that far away from happening. For example, there are programs out there that will interface with a tablet and will automatically render hand-written equations into Microsoft Equation Editor.

Anyhoo, somewhere on this site I found an image of a 505 or 700 showing a page of a thesis which had some equations, so I figure I will be fine with the 700 for what I am after. If I can't get the white space adjusted using soPDF or similar tools, I will just read it on a computer or as a printed copy.

Thanks,

reso

* do you like how I said quote-un-quote, and then used quotes? I sure did, but I was just out celebrating the successful PhD defense of a colleague, so perhaps am not in the right state of mind for such a long-winded internet post.

** sorry, a rather incendiary comment, meant more to incite flame-wars on the internet than anything else. If you are a subscriber to the Southern Manitoba Bulletin for Amateur Astrology and UFO sightings and do believe it to be a noteworthy academic publication, I do hereby apologize.

Edit. Also, I see that cerement has replied, and does indeed seem to know a fair bit about tex and latex, so I will shut up. But since I already wrote the diatribe above, I will leave it, to be archived by google where it shall remain, until the end of time. Good night.

Edit #2: I see that there is a "reason for editing" text area where I can submit a reason for editing, and I already clicked "save" without adding a reason for editing, and just wouldn't quite be satisfied until I typed something into that text area.

Edit. Also, I see that cerement has replied, and does indeed seem to know a fair bit about tex and latex ...
Don't give me more credit than I deserve :p Even my previous posts did nothing more than to muddy the waters ...

What I should have said in the first place:
Currently, no eInk based reader has provided a viewer that uses the TeX rendering engine. The closest available is FBReader (under OpenInkpot) that has implemented the hyphenation algorithm and dictionaries, but not the spacing or math aspects of TeX -- so you still get the white rivers running through text and having to convert formulas to images to be able to view them.

As far as the Sony PRS-700, if you have a chance, try to do a side-by-side comparison with the Sony PRS-505. The 700 added a touchscreen and side-lighting and there's been complaints that screen visibility suffers because of it. Out of the current crop of eInk readers, the Sonys handle PDFs the best and, as you mentioned, getting PDF output from TeX is trivial to say the least. At this stage in the game, the next step up from the eInk readers is pretty much limited to netbooks and tablet PCs ...

Ok, picked up the PRS-700, first impressions, screen has a lot of glare and low contrast. The sony product managers must be surrounded by "Yes-men" to have let this get through the user-testing phase of their product development.

And this product again reaffirms my experience and belief that sony can make some great looking and great "feeling" products, but is absolutely horrid at writing software. Seriously, I had to format the internal memory card right away, as windows vista constantly wanted to "fix" the file system and the Ebook Library or Windows Explorer wouldn't work with it. Several reboots and a few formats of the internal memory, and I am finally able to upload content.

Why does sony feel the need to write a different custom and ugly GUI for every single application they develop? The default windows GUI may not be "pretty", but at least it has the widgets to have My Documents, and Desktop handy. Now I get the joy of manually browsing to C:\Users\UserName\My Documents everytime I want to upload a book simply because Sony felt the need to write their own UI library. They did the same thing with the minidisc. Sony potentially had a winning format: smaller than CD's, writeable like CDs with their own scratch proof protection, win+win+win. Then they decided to only make it usable through a GUI that was written by a 15 year old programmer with autism in Visual Basic so everyone absolutely hated the experience of using minidiscs on their PCs. Same feeling I have with their ebook software on windows. Anyhoo, enough of a rant. I think I will get used to the low contrast, and mathematics do indeed appear to display well,

reso

Seriously, the drivers for this thing are a piece. Why can I plug in any USB device on my computer and it appears ready to use instantly? This thing takes about 20-30 seconds before the removable drive appears ready, and copying files to has a success rate hovering below 25%

For your needs, I recommend a slate tablet PC such as TC1100. It is reasonably small and light (10" screen), it has great notetaking and pdf abilities. It is not produced anymore, but I bought it used for ~$400 last year. The only downside I can think of is its battery life, which pretty much less than 3hr.

I also have the 6" eink reader PRS 700. It is very good for casual reading, but for technical journals, the text becomes just to small to read, especially in double column papers. As an alternative, the larger screen IRex that everybody mentioned is good, but it is prohibitively expensive.

edit: oops I noticed that my feedback is too late. Well anyways, enjoy your PRS 700 it is still a very capable device, despite its limitations.

I also have the 6" eink reader PRS 700. It is very good for casual reading, but for technical journals, the text becomes just to small to read, especially in double column papers.

Why not just use any of the free tools here to split the columns? I think all of the programs I listed earlier (PaperCrop, PDFLRF, SoPDF, etc.) can split a two-column PDF in half... as can similar programs like PDFRead and Rasterfarian.

For those journal articles that aren't multiple-columns, I find that removing the whitespace, and putting in landscape (thus spanning the page over multiple flips) is more than sufficient to make the fonts readable.

The only PDFs I've had trouble making readable on my Sony (and even then I can do it) are those that come from pre-published material, where someone is using a 8.5x11 paper with minimal margins and not dividing it into columns. E.g., a paper written in Word or something. Then, however, you can often ask for the source file.

This would never happen with published material, since professional type-setters know better than to have lines that wide, even in academic journals. They either use smaller paper, or use columns. If they use columns they can be broken up. If they use smaller paper, you may still get PDFs formatted to print on 8.5x11, but this usually only means there are massive margins that you can strip away with any number of (free) tools.

Why not just use any of the free tools here to split the columns? I think all of the programs I listed earlier (PaperCrop, PDFLRF, SoPDF, etc.) can split a two-column PDF in half... as can similar programs like PDFRead and Rasterfarian.

For those journal articles that aren't multiple-columns, I find that removing the whitespace, and putting in landscape (thus spanning the page over multiple flips) is more than sufficient to make the fonts readable.

The only PDFs I've had trouble making readable on my Sony (and even then I can do it) are those that come from pre-published material, where someone is using a 8.5x11 paper with minimal margins and not dividing it into columns. E.g., a paper written in Word or something. Then, however, you can often ask for the source file.

This would never happen with published material, since professional type-setters know better than to have lines that wide, even in academic journals. They either use smaller paper, or use columns. If they use columns they can be broken up. If they use smaller paper, you may still get PDFs formatted to print on 8.5x11, but this usually only means there are massive margins that you can strip away with any number of (free) tools.

You are correct, but I feel too lazy to convert all the papers I read. Instead, using the tablet pc seems more convenient.

BTW, I am near sighted, and I can actually see small stuff really good. So I can read double column papers with tiny text in the landscape mode of PRS700 :)

You are correct, but I feel too lazy to convert all the papers I read.

Doesn't take too long once you get used to it. SoPDF for example is blazing fast, much faster than Acrobat. I made a GUI for SoPDF which makes it easier if I want non-default settings, but actually more often that that, I call it through a right-click option I defined for it with default settings in the PDF file associations in windows-- so it's just a matter of right-clicking a PDF and choosing "SoPDF-it" and 5 seconds later I have a version formatted at least decently well for my reader.

Instead, using the tablet pc seems more convenient.

Hey, more power to you! I can't afford a tablet PC, so I'm jealous!

Doesn't take too long once you get used to it. SoPDF for example is blazing fast, much faster than Acrobat. I made a GUI for SoPDF which makes it easier if I want non-default settings, but actually more often that that, I call it through a right-click option I defined for it with default settings in the PDF file associations in windows-- so it's just a matter of right-clicking a PDF and choosing "SoPDF-it" and 5 seconds later I have a version formatted at least decently well for my reader.

Thanks, I'll check it out. An automated workflow is certainly a nice incentive to get started ;)


Hey, more power to you! I can't afford a tablet PC, so I'm jealous!

Well I got a used one, so I really did not pay a lot. The TC1100 I got was around $400, which is quite affordable as a laptop or tablet pc.

Thanks, I'll check it out. An automated workflow is certainly a nice incentive to get started ;)

Well I got a used one, so I really did not pay a lot. The TC1100 I got was around $400, which is quite affordable as a laptop or tablet pc.

Hey - I'm really intrigued by the TC1100. What are your experiences with it as a reader and for note taking? How is the battery life?

I have noticed some on ebay that are decent in price.

Thanks

Doesn't take too long once you get used to it. SoPDF for example is blazing fast, much faster than Acrobat. I made a GUI for SoPDF which makes it easier if I want non-default settings, but actually more often that that, I call it through a right-click option I defined for it with default settings in the PDF file associations in windows-- so it's just a matter of right-clicking a PDF and choosing "SoPDF-it" and 5 seconds later I have a version formatted at least decently well for my reader.

That sounds great, where can one download this GUI?

Thanks, reso.

That sounds great, where can one download this GUI?

Thanks, reso.

Right here:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32066&page=2
(Just scroll down till you see my post about it.)

The right click thing is different, however.

Hey - I'm really intrigued by the TC1100. What are your experiences with it as a reader and for note taking? How is the battery life?

I have noticed some on ebay that are decent in price.

Thanks

For notetaking, in my experience TC1100 works beautifully with MS Onenote 2007. The stylus that comes with TC1100 is an active one, and it supports two modes - left (draw) and right click. At some point I also got a generic active stylus, which has another button on the back which acts as an eraser (like a real pencil). That is even better, and makes notetaking easier.

As a reader, I use it for reading papers and digital comics. It has a 10" screen, so in portrait mode, I can read a whole page fit into the screen, even in double column technical papers. But for others, they might want bigger fonts in that case some vertical scrolling might be necessary with landscape mode.

For comparison, standard letter size is 8.5" by 11". TC1100's screen should be 6" by 8", so in portrait mode the paper on the screen would be 70% (in length) of the printed paper (50% in area). In landscape, it is almost the same size.


Right here:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32066&page=2
(Just scroll down till you see my post about it.)

The right click thing is different, however.

That is great. Thanks again!

Great discussion on displaying scientific/technical text! I'm also leaning towards the 700 to display technical PDF's (physics, mat.sci. etc). A few comments. I'm not sure if the 700 allows comments to be entered and transferred to the SD card (or computer), actually requested in another post as well.
Since the days of DOS and a science document editor called ChiWriter, I've been frustrated by the difficulty of entering equations. Creating an image to embed is cumbersome. Why can't we have a font of math/science symbols? Then, an equation could be entered by loading the appropriate font? An eReader or a computer could do that.

Why can't we have a font of math/science symbols? Then, an equation could be entered by loading the appropriate font? An eReader or a computer could do that.
The designers of the various electronic readers COULD do that ... but they're too busy adding every hardware bell and whistle to the device they can find first ... I think we're going to have to wait 'til the next generation of readers before we start seeing developers hiring human interface designers and graphic designers and start looking at the actual reading experience as opposed to just adding more "ooh shiny" ...

Creating an image to embed is cumbersome. Why can't we have a font of math/science symbols? Then, an equation could be entered by loading the appropriate font? An eReader or a computer could do that.

I don't think the problem has to do with fonts. They could stick the fonts in no problem, sure. It's more that having the fonts would be useless unless the file format supports the kind of mark-up you need for equations. Besides PDF, most of the formats used by portable readers seem to be xml based, but they don't seem to support MathML--so working that in would be the best first step.

But it sounds like you want something more: MathML is not the kind of mark-up that you'd want to do manually as an end user, when, e.g., entering notes. So combine MathML support with something that converted, e.g., LaTeX markup to MathML for display, and boom, we'd be good to go.

Sure, this would be for a very specialized market, and there are lots of other bells and whistles that might have a larger demand, but hey, we can dare to dream... :cool:

I'll admit that I was thinking beyond eReaders when I mentioned a sci/math font. The word processor on my computer would also benefit. I can wait to add notes that include equations. But, I should not have to wait for a computer / reading system that can generate and display an equation.
Many years ago, in the ancient days of DOS, a scientific word processor (ChiWriter) implemented sci/math fonts. Equations flowed naturally with the text. They weren't an embedded graphic image. If a font existed, and was accepted, why couldn't that work? Yes, it would mean that in some cases the equations would be constrained, for example no excessivley large integral signs. But, I've seen it work and it frustrating that after 20+ years of computer advances, I still can't do what I was able to do back then.

(OK, sorry if I ranted, but it's been a pet peeve for a long time).

ddave

There are tons of math fonts available. The "Symbol" font that ships with windows has a bunch of math symbols in it. if you need more, there are tons available online.

E.g., you can get the Mathematica fonts from here for Windows (http://support.wolfram.com/technotes/fonts/windows/latestfonts.html) or here for Mac, (http://support.wolfram.com/technotes/fonts/macintosh/latestfonts.html) for free. There are tons more available, including ComputerModern from LaTeX. (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/fonts/bakoma/texcm-ttf.zip)

What word processor are you using? OpenOffice is free, compatible with MS Word file format, and open source, and even has its own Math equations editor.
http://www.openoffice.org/

And if that's not powerful enough for you, then just download LaTeX -- there are many free distributions, and leave non-math-friendly Word Processors behind you for good. (I have.) Here's a good place to get started:
http://www.ctan.org/what_is_tex.html

It has packages for pretty much everything, and I'm sure it can do everything ChiWriter can do... and a whole lot more! (In fact, here's A ChiWriter to TeX converter (http://www.delfijn.nl/ChiWriter/v4pack.htm) (among other things)--and if you really want to go back to using ChiWriter, it looks like you can get a tool for making it make PDFs here (http://www.nomdo.dds.nl/cw.htm)... though the output shown there is extremely ugly compared to the beautiful things LaTeX can do (http://www.tug.org/texshowcase/), IMHO...)

Just to put in my two cents: I'm a PhD student in molecular biology, and I've had a PRS-505 for the last two years. As a matter of fact, I moved a futon on top of one recently and bought another 505 rather than upgrading to the 700. I've been quite satisfied with the 505's ability to render text of the since the firmware upgrade sometime last year improved its zoom capabilities.

I had only read reviews of the 700 to inform my decision since I couldn't get my hands on one to handle myself. How's the 700 serving you to read science journal articles?

Cyanth,
So far my limited experience viewing science journal articles on the 700 has been limited to copying PDF files onto an SD card and dropping it into a 700 at a local Borders retail store. The fact that I was able to just drop in an SD card and view the file was encouraging.

Comparing PDF viewing on the 505 vs. th 700: the first thing I noticed is that the 505 took longer to open a PDF, and longer to turn a page. I found myself waiting each time. The 700 still takes some time to process, I felt it was much quicker. Therefore, when I went in to try different PDF files, I quickly limited my trials to the 700.

Some PDF's can be viewed quite nicely by selecting a larger font size and the 700 will 'reflow' and generate a decent screen. However, if the PDF's were generated by scanning a full page, the the results are more unpredictable. In that case, I would view the file both by changing the font size and by zooming in from the full page display. In the latter case, everything is in place and you can zoom or pan around on the page. Unfortunately, when you go to the next page you have to re-zoom.

I have not experimented yet with programs that generate new PDF files from files that don't display well. For example, some programs will take a 2-column article (common in scientific publications) and separate the columns. Haven't tried yet.
Many have said that it is also better to view full-page PDF (that don't reflow well) in landscape mode.

Consequently, I've decided on the 700. I just haven't had time to buy one yet. Hopefully in the next week or so.

Good luck, ddave

frabjous,
Thanks for the links, I'll try the mathmatica fonts. Being in Corporate America I'm not free to use whatever word processor I like, however at home I use OpenOffice. I think if I can install a font that has most of the mathmatical symbols that it would be a reasonable compromise.
ddave

frabjous,
Thanks for the links, I'll try the mathmatica fonts. Being in Corporate America I'm not free to use whatever word processor I like, however at home I use OpenOffice. I think if I can install a font that has most of the mathmatical symbols that it would be a reasonable compromise.
ddave

Yo, been reading the 700 now a bit, its not too bad. If you can get into what you are reading, its fine. The reflections are bad, but you can position it out of the way.

However, I have been travelling on business, and saw someone with the new kindle 2. I eves-dropped over their shoulder for a few minutes, and I gotta say, I was definitely jealous of the screen, it looked way better.