View Full Version : Ebooks on bittorrent!


ProDigit
12-01-2008, 01:42 PM
It'd be nice if there was a way to add all books and upload them to bittorrent.
That on itself is fairly easy to do, but seeing the increasing number of people,and books being added and changed, to always have the latest could be an issue.
Especially if some books get corrected 2, 3, or 4 times..

Patricia
12-01-2008, 02:16 PM
I would be extremely reluctant to see my uploads on a torrent site, in company with so much illicit material. I don't even have torrent software on any of my computers.
Surely it is not a such a hardship to visit this site and get the latest versions from us?

pilotbob
12-01-2008, 02:25 PM
I would be extremely reluctant to see my uploads on a torrent site, in company with so much illicit material. I don't even have torrent software on any of my computers.

This is an incorrect assumption that may people have. Bittorrent is a protocol for distributed transfers which allow a small company or organization to distribute files to a large audience. Mobilread could run a torrent tracker for ebooks and be 100% legit.

That said most of the ebooks are very small files and this is probably not an issue.

BOb

bbusybookworm
12-01-2008, 02:33 PM
Indeed, Personally the only benefit I would see of having Mobileread's entire collection available as Torrent would be if someone wanted an Archival copy, or was planning to be off-line for an extended period of time.

I'm not saying that some people may not want it, but I think the number may be quiet limited.

And as mentioned there is the Issue of New books being added Daily, and updated Versions of older works being added, keeping the torrent Up to date would be difficult.

Still, Torrents of Individual Authors, or series may work, but would probably require a lot of work.

pilotbob
12-01-2008, 02:51 PM
And as mentioned there is the Issue of New books being added Daily, and updated Versions of older works being added, keeping the torrent Up to date would be difficult.

Isn't there an RSS feed for the ebooks? That would give you notices of any new books and changes.

BOb

carandol
12-01-2008, 03:05 PM
Isn't there an RSS feed for the ebooks? That would give you notices of any new books and changes.

BOb

There is, it's here http://feeds.mobileread.com/mr/ebooks

bbusybookworm
12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
Isn't there an RSS feed for the ebooks? That would give you notices of any new books and changes.

BOb

I meant keeping the Torrent itself current, as If you add any new files you have to create anew torrent, and unless you seed both, you may leave some of the people downloading it high and dry.

HarryT
12-02-2008, 04:47 AM
My personal preference would be that people came to MR to download books, and hence I'd rather that there not be a Torrent of our books.

DaleDe
12-02-2008, 10:04 AM
My personal preference would be that people came to MR to download books, and hence I'd rather that there not be a Torrent of our books.

I would agree. There are lots of reasons to control the release of books that someone has put so much effort in. Shipping them off to bit torrent would lose any any information about how many had been downloaded for example which is good feedback to the person posting the eBook to decide what future books to post.

Dale

vivaldirules
12-02-2008, 10:47 AM
Well, if you're asking for input on this, I vote no. Although there may be legitimate value to torrent sites, I, too, would be most unhappy to see our library associated with a technology which is so widely used for illegitimate purposes. If it is done, please let us know in advance.

RickyMaveety
12-02-2008, 10:57 AM
Not a good idea in my opinion. So, if I had a vote, which I don't, I would vote no.

tompe
12-02-2008, 11:17 AM
One argument for is that it saves time. It is probably easier to download all the books and then take the 20 books you wanted from the download then downloading 20 books separately.

Ralph Sir Edward
12-02-2008, 11:32 AM
Then perhaps a block download feature (i.e. a list of books) might be a better feature. I respect the wish to gather the info of books posted on MR downloads.

tompe
12-02-2008, 12:41 PM
Then perhaps a block download feature (i.e. a list of books) might be a better feature. I respect the wish to gather the info of books posted on MR downloads.

Yes, downloading all books from one author would be a very nice feature.

ProDigit
12-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Block downloading could be what I mean indeed.

As far as torrents and illegal,that's exactly the same as :
- Money and black money
- immigrants and illegal
- Workers and workers without a work permit
- Cars driving 50 in a 50 zone, and cars driving 90 in a 50 zone

Just because the opportunity is there, does not mean it's illegal, or should even be seen as illegal.
Originally bittorrent has been created to share larger files or archives amongst many peers.
It can be hosted from a website like this, and does not need to be posted in non-legitimate torrent websites.

Bittorrent also has advanced tracking capabilities so, there's no problem to get an accurate number on how many people downloaded them.

The only thing you can get is that someone will publish the torrent on other trackers.(Which they still can do downloading all LRF books from this site).

As far as updating a torrent with newer books,you just need to download a newer torrent. As long as when a newer torrent becomes available, it uses the same directory structure and files, you will not really lose any data (appart from the downloaded files that have been updated).
All files that have been modified will be redownloaded again, Bittorrent automatically recognizes this, and all files that have not been updated will not be downloaded again by bittorrent.

Bittorrenting a book is probably ridiculous indeed, since most books are below 2MB.
It would only make sense from 20 or more books,and even more preferably from 100MBand up (at least about 100 or more books)
Good torrent files generally are archives aimed towards 600-650-700MB and 4,30GB,for CD and DVD archive.

I understand that unlike a 600MB movie which takes 1,5 hours to watch, 600Mb of books will take a long time to read, and that many will not download them to read them all.

So, it's probably better to have block downloads.

The only con with that is that you might need 23 out of 25 books, and each time download a couple you already have.

Block downloads could be author wise, time wise (latest created/updated) or genre wise.
To get them sorted in those directories would probably need a good XML or PHP programmer to create the possibility to do that.

Another possibility might be a website,with a bunch of books, sorted by name, pub. date or genre, and checkboxes next to it.

And if you know a good Java programmer he could even create a program that downloads while you browse through the list selecting the files you want.

Anyways just giving my .2ct here...

astra
12-03-2008, 10:12 AM
Block downloading could be what I mean indeed.

As far as torrents and illegal,that's exactly the same as :
- Money and black money
- immigrants and illegal
- Workers and workers without a work permit
- Cars driving 50 in a 50 zone, and cars driving 90 in a 50 zone

Just because the opportunity is there, does not mean it's illegal, or should even be seen as illegal.

Anyways just giving my .2ct here...

Hey, PC or Mac are an opportunity. Why do they keep on selling them?

Halo
12-04-2008, 11:14 PM
Although there may be legitimate value to torrent sites, I, too, would be most unhappy to see our library associated with a technology which is so widely used for illegitimate purposes.
The web, and the Internet in general, is also widely used for illegitimate purposes but here we all are. 95% of the email sent in 2007 was spam (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-9831556-16.html) which is all scams and viruses. That doesn't lessen the value of email as a tool. The real purpose of the bittorrent protocol was to take advantage of the often unused outbound bandwidth on most network connections and aggregate it to transfer large amounts of data. That way the burden of distribution of content could be lessened for the publisher. There are many organizations that use it for legal content distribution.

That being said, I don't believe there is much value in distributing the mobileread ebooks via bittorrent. The size of the data is small, so I doubt that it would significantly reduce the bandwidth usage of the site. The greatest convenience I could see would be that you could get all of the books with a single download. At the moment one must download books one by one. It takes too many clicks to accomplish. This could be addressed with a zip file containing all of the available ebooks. I'd rather see that happen before making a torrent of the files.

vivaldirules
12-05-2008, 08:24 AM
I think comparing bittorrent with the air we breathe (both are used for good intentions and otherwise) misses the point. As far as ebooks go, I think it's probably safe to say that the use of bittorrent is predominantly for illegitimate purposes and provides little legitimate value.

Taylor514ce
12-05-2008, 08:38 AM
Bittorrent (http://www.bittorrent.com/) is a maker of torrent client software. One doesn't upload or download content or even torrents to or from them.

vivaldirules
12-05-2008, 09:27 AM
Bittorrent (http://www.bittorrent.com/) is a maker of torrent client software. One doesn't upload or download content or even torrents to or from them.

Inexactitudes drive you nuts, don't they? I'm just saying.

Taylor514ce
12-05-2008, 09:34 AM
If we want to have a serious discussions about the merits of using torrents to distribute books, then step 1 is to understand what a torrent is, and how torrents work.

"Ebooks on bittorrent!" isn't a promising start, and when everyone repeats the same error we get nowhere.

Ned
12-05-2008, 10:04 AM
Bittorrent (http://www.bittorrent.com/) is a maker of torrent client software. One doesn't upload or download content or even torrents to or from them.
According to this wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_(protocol)) bittorrent is a peer to peer file sharing protocol.

acidzebra
12-05-2008, 10:27 AM
I had no idea that people perceived bittorrent this way, thanks media. Or some people are a bunch of p2p-luddites.

Bittorrent is THE most advanced p2p protocol we have right now, and what people use it for is irrelevant - if you want to share data with many peers efficiently without shouldering all of the bandwidth used, you look at bittorrent. That is your legitimate value, right there.

I've often looked at the many ebooks that forum members have so thoughtfully formatted, but the way the forum is set up right now stops me from grabbing any number of them, hunt-and-peck through the list, opening the relevant post, opening the attachment to the post, sometimes having to click to an additional warning message, it just seems like work. But hey, I'm lazy.

I would appreciate "author packs" as well, using the bittorrent protocol or as a straight download from MR.

pilotbob
12-05-2008, 11:01 AM
I don't really think that ebook files are big enough to even warrant the need for bittorrent. ebooks could even be much smaller if they are compressed with zip or something... which I think some are already anyway... like isn't ePub a zip container?

BOb

acidzebra
12-05-2008, 11:16 AM
You'd have to ask whoever maintains the server about totals - but just for the Sony-formatted books there are 101 pages of (I think) 30 books linked per page. If we pretend the average book size is around ~500 Kb (I think it is more) that would still amount to 101*30*500=~1.5 Gb of data for just LRF formatted books.

I think all told it would be a formidable amount of data. And nobody balks about uploading, say, 2 Gb of data, but if you have to dole that out to a couple of thousand users the numbers quickly add up.

Anyhow, several of the people who are most active with regards to formatting and making books available on MR have already said they would not appreciate a torrent, and I respect that, although I do not understand it fully. But again, I would still appreciate "author packs", via torrent or not. Hunting and pecking your way to the books you like this is a pain.

pilotbob
12-05-2008, 11:25 AM
You'd have to ask whoever maintains the server about totals - but just for the Sony-formatted books there are 101 pages of (I think) 30 books linked per page. If we pretend the average book size is around ~500 Kb (I think it is more) that would still amount to 101*30*500=~1.5 Gb of data for just LRF formatted books.

So you are suggesting that there would be a torrent which downloads all the books? If so, I'm not sure about this idea... as I don't want to d/l the full library just to get one or two books that I might want.

BOb

Taylor514ce
12-05-2008, 11:47 AM
According to this wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_(protocol)) bittorrent is a peer to peer file sharing protocol.

Yes, BitTorrent also refers to the protocol. One doesn't upload/download to/from a protocol, either. :)

DannyR
12-05-2008, 11:56 AM
You certainly do not have to download the entire catalog just to grab a few files. All the modern torrent clients allow selective download of the contents.

Personally I think torrents are a great resource and certainly preferable to a zip file containing everything which doesn't allow selective downloads. But I definitely think either would be a vast improvement over the current way files are handled. Those who do want to grab the library are faced with days of clicking and downloading. That is unnecessary in my opinion.

ProDigit
12-05-2008, 12:38 PM
So you are suggesting that there would be a torrent which downloads all the books? If so, I'm not sure about this idea... as I don't want to d/l the full library just to get one or two books that I might want.

BOb

For one or two books you're better off downloading them manually.
But if you plan to download say 80 out of a 100, it's much easier to just deselect 20 of the downloads of the '100 pack'. Any advanced bittorrent client supports this function.

However I myself am less convinced that bittorrent is the way to share ebooks.
I think people made a valid argument, that, sharing single books, or even 10 packs does not compensate for the overhead bittorrent puts on a network.

if we're talking about bittorrent,we're talking about at least 350MB packs.. That seems more logical.

Also, people doanloading as large packs as 700MB, are most likely not going to read those books,and just use them for archiving, or sharing with other people on networks.

But I also agree with acidzebra, that it takes too many clicks and searches to download say 20 to 30 ebooks.

Maybe now it's still ok. I own a Sony reader,and am mainly interested in Spiritual, and LRF files.
That brings the total search downto 4 pages, 94 books. SF is worse...188 files...

Now it's still ok; but seeing at the rate ebooks get uploaded, in about a year this number will almost be doubled,and 3 years from now we might have about 10x the amount of books of today

pilotbob
12-05-2008, 03:38 PM
So, I think the forum just needs a better ebook/library system. A way to select multiple books and then batch download them.

I sure Alex will have it working in a few hours now that I have mentioned it.

BOb

Halo
12-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Personally I think torrents are a great resource and certainly preferable to a zip file containing everything which doesn't allow selective downloads.I would be happy to have smaller zip files that allowed me to download everything within a specific genre. It would be nice to be able to download all of the mystery books with one click and then dump them onto my reader. I can tell whether I want to keep a book about 10 pages into reading it. I could easily delete the ones I don't want.

Another good place to start would be to provide zip files for the notable ebook uploads (http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Notable_eBook_Uploads_Available_at_MobileRead).

HarryT
12-06-2008, 09:23 AM
I don't really think that ebook files are big enough to even warrant the need for bittorrent. ebooks could even be much smaller if they are compressed with zip or something... which I think some are already anyway... like isn't ePub a zip container?

BOb

Pretty much all eBook formats (Mobi, LIT, LRF, etc) have "internal" data compression. One generally gains little or nothing from zipping up such files. The fact that they are compressed is one of the things which distinguishes a "genuine" eBook format from an "editable" format such as RTF.

HarryT
12-06-2008, 09:26 AM
Anyhow, several of the people who are most active with regards to formatting and making books available on MR have already said they would not appreciate a torrent, and I respect that, although I do not understand it fully. But again, I would still appreciate "author packs", via torrent or not. Hunting and pecking your way to the books you like this is a pain.

One of the points of the eBook library on MR is to encourage people to visit the site, read what the uploader has to say about the book, add your own comments about it on the upload thread, etc. We do not want to facilitate "bulk downloads".

Timoleon
12-06-2008, 12:11 PM
For large, legal, bulk size downloads I say the torrent is a good way to go. It was the only way I could pull the (legal) monster-sized Blackmask DVD off the Internet --- and I tried everything else first.

For everything else I say come to MobileRead.

Tim

DannyR
12-06-2008, 06:00 PM
One of the points of the eBook library on MR is to encourage people to visit the site, read what the uploader has to say about the book, add your own comments about it on the upload thread, etc. We do not want to facilitate "bulk downloads".

On the other hand, I would have come to the site a lot sooner if the existence of a torrent for ebooks had existed before now. I didn't even know you offered any ebooks until I saw this thread. I've just been browsing the site periodically over the past year because of the ebook reader reviews. The more services a site offers, the more traffic it will generate. So yes, I think you would want to facilitate bulk downloads. It *would* bring people in to discuss the books.

Gripping hand, some of those who come only to grab a lot of books probably are not staying anyway to discuss them, but their participation in a torrent helps keep it seeded and going, so you aren't losing anything offering the service. Those who are part of the community will appreciate the easy download ability and will stay and discuss the books.

Patricia
12-06-2008, 06:50 PM
On the other hand, I would have come to the site a lot sooner if the existence of a torrent for ebooks had existed before now. I didn't even know you offered any ebooks until I saw this thread. I've just been browsing the site periodically over the past year because of the ebook reader reviews. The more services a site offers, the more traffic it will generate. So yes, I think you would want to facilitate bulk downloads. It *would* bring people in to discuss the books.


I must admit that I'm a bit puzzled. If you hadn't realised that there were free books at this site, then might you not also have missed noticing that a (hypothetical) torrent was available?

ProDigit
12-06-2008, 09:30 PM
One of the points of the eBook library on MR is to encourage people to visit the site, read what the uploader has to say about the book, add your own comments about it on the upload thread, etc. We do not want to facilitate "bulk downloads".

Then again,if we want to spend time talking on the forum, combining with the tasks of our daily life, I think that many would want to spend as little time as possible downloading some books,and as much time as possible actually enjoying them!

Like said before, what good is it to have 3 to 4 sublinks for every book to click?
Not to mention those of us who don't have that fast internet, it is just frustrating to take for ages.

Besides, maybe some people would like others to read their comments about the book, but other people really don't care about that.
I don't mind noone reading my comments.
If my book has errors and people want to complain, then I want them to read it first; because maybe I'm aware of the issue already and have posted it there.

Another thing is,that not every one has the same interests...
Some people might want to download books to read them,others might want to download them to stockpile them, and show them to their friends, Others even use it to increase their already tens of Terrabyte of data containing harddisks,to get a higher score in P2P networks.
Whatever their reasons may be should not matter when downloading, because either way they're not doing anything illegal to do so.

As long as they are not selling them it should not matter why a person is downloading those books.

Bulkdownloads only offer the option of saving bandwidth and saving time.

DannyR
12-07-2008, 01:45 AM
I must admit that I'm a bit puzzled. If you hadn't realised that there were free books at this site, then might you not also have missed noticing that a (hypothetical) torrent was available?

Not nearly as likely. Torrents tend to get widely distributed, especially if they are as useful as this one would likely be. And I often look at the various trackers associated with torrents I find useful to see what websites host them. I've discovered a number of interesting sites that way.

Several torrents holding various collections of Project Gutenberg books have made the rounds in the past, and always draw lots of downloaders.

yvanleterrible
12-07-2008, 09:34 AM
Bit Torrent is just what its name implies, the moving of huge amounts of data. Philosophically that should not apply to MR because it's a tool for hoarding. We are a community. All those books were formated with care for our use and for discussion. The mandates behind this book collection are to maintain and augment the number of members and to promote the ebook as a support for culture. This is a book by book proposition, again unsuitable for mass transfer.

HarryT
12-07-2008, 09:38 AM
Bit Torrent is just what its name implies, the moving of huge amounts of data. Philosophically that should not apply to MR because it's a tool for hoarding. We are a community. All those books were formated with care for our use and for discussion. The mandates behind this book collection are to maintain and augment the number of members and to promote the ebook as a support for culture. This is a book by book proposition, again unsuitable for mass transfer.

Very well said, Yvan. That's it precisely.

tompe
12-07-2008, 10:25 AM
The mandates behind this book collection are to maintain and augment the number of members and to promote the ebook as a support for culture. This is a book by book proposition, again unsuitable for mass transfer.

I had totally missed that. Were can I read more about this to check that it really is so? Is there any document spelling it out?

Why does downloading on book at the time support culture more than downloading a lot of books?

I find downloading book from MR annoyingly hard. Going via the index it is very hard to find a specific author.

Also concering culture the books are usually missing information about what text they are based on and what texts have been used to proof read them. For example a friend who is a Lovecraft-fanatic told me that the Lovecraft collection here is not based on the best versions available. And what version it is based on was missing at least in the books.

acidzebra
12-07-2008, 10:36 AM
Yeah, I too fail to see how transferring things one book at a time with many clicks in between is somehow more culturally significant than, say, downloading a zipped pack of Charles Dickens' work whether via torrent or plain download.

Because I'm going to download those works one way or the other.

Also I really thought these books were there to be read and enjoyed and are available because they are either out of copyright or explicitly in the public domain and other people care about making them available to all, but maybe I am wrong about that too.

vivaldirules
12-07-2008, 10:42 AM
Yeah too fail to see how transferring things one book at a time with many clicks in between is somehow more culturally significant than, say, downloading a zipped pack of Charles Dickens' work whether via torrent or plain download.

Because I'm going to download those works one way or the other.

Also I really thought these books were there to be read and enjoyed and are available because they are either out of copyright or explicitly in the public domain, but maybe I am wrong about that too.

Compared with the hours or days required to read each book (and, yes, they are all in the public domain), is it really so painful to add a minute to download it?

acidzebra
12-07-2008, 10:44 AM
Compared with the hours or days required to read each book (and, yes, they are all in the public domain), is it really so painful to add a minute to download it?

I think that is a bizarre argument. Should I go back to downloading via a 56 k modem, too? Or maybe we should add lots of pop-ups that you have to click through. Why make life MORE difficult?

vivaldirules
12-07-2008, 10:49 AM
I think that is a bizarre argument. Should I go back to downloading via a 56 k modem, too? Or maybe we should add lots of pop-ups that you have to click through. Why make life MORE difficult?

I'm just trying to understand your adamant opinion. I'm lucky if I can read 100 books a year. If come here to get them, I'll spend hardly an hour or two over the year to find and download the latest versions. And I'll spend a gazillion hours reading and enjoying them. That's hardly a comparison with downloading many web pages daily via a slow modem.

yvanleterrible
12-07-2008, 10:52 AM
There are omnibus editions. Maybe we should have more,I don't know if we should. But what I'd like to see is that as we read the book we have gotten, we should really go back to its original thread and post our appreciation or comments about the works.

There is an other consideration I would like to underline. A property right to the visual format of the uploader. Lots of care is worked into these books, shouldn't the uploader at least be asked permission about "torrenting"?

And why should we get books that we'll never read? That's hoarding.

acidzebra
12-07-2008, 10:55 AM
A property right to the visual format of the uploader. Lots of care is worked into these books, shouldn't the uploader at least be asked permission about "torrenting"?

A public domain book made freely available for download via anonymous connections?

I'm not trying to understate or under-appreciate anyone's work and have already said I personally respect the effort and wishes of the people proof-reading, correcting, and formatting these books but I'm not sure I agree with you. Actually, I'm pretty sure I don't.

And why should we get books that we'll never read? That's hoarding.

OMGWTFBBQ hoarding! Yes, and?
Is my 'hoarding' of electronic versions of public domain works somehow a crime, offensive, or unethical?

Are libraries also hoards? And before you ask, I freely share my toys. I don't even require a membership card or donation.

HarryT
12-07-2008, 11:04 AM
OMGWTFBBQ hoarding! Yes, and?
Is my 'hoarding' of electronic versions of public domain works somehow a crime, offensive, or unethical?


No.

However, since you mentioned the Dickens books that I've created, you'll know, if you look at the EBook uploads forum on a regular basis, that I regularly post new versions of those books as I properly proof-read them, or think of other improvements. It's in your own interest to get the latest copy of a book "fresh" from the forum library at the time that you want to read it, rather than read a version you downloaded a couple of years ago. There will almost certainly have been a revised version posted in that time.

But of course, at the end of the day, the choice is yours to make. I certainly claim no "rights" over anything I've uploaded.

yvanleterrible
12-07-2008, 11:04 AM
A public domain book made freely available for download via anonymous connections?

I'm not trying to bagatellise anyone's work and have already said I personally respect the effort and wishes of the people proof-reading, correcting, and formatting these books but I'm not sure I agree with you. Actually, I'm pretty sure I don't.



OMGWTFBBQ hoarding! Yes, and?
Is my 'hoarding' of electronic versions of public domain works somehow a crime, offensive, or unethical?

Are libraries also hoards? And before you ask, I freely share my toys. I don't even require a membership card or donation. I would say acting as a pig is unethical. And I would add that libraries have a maximum number of books allowed per rental. MR's collection is a library and does not impose itself but it should act on torrent.

tompe
12-07-2008, 11:05 AM
I'm just trying to understand your adamant opinion. I'm lucky if I can read 100 books a year. If come here to get them, I'll spend hardly an hour or two over the year to find and download the latest versions. And I'll spend a gazillion hours reading and enjoying them. That's hardly a comparison with downloading many web pages daily via a slow modem.

I already have more books than I will be able to read. So the question is if a book can be pushed near the top of my reading queue. And if I have to do a lot of boring stuff to get the book the probability that it will get to the top decrease.

acidzebra
12-07-2008, 11:06 AM
I would say acting as a pig is unethical. And I would add that libraries have a maximum number of books allowed per rental. MR's collection is a library and does not impose itself but it should act on torrent.

I also buy many physical books at a time, planning to read only one or two right now, and some with no fixed reading plan in mind. I'm sorry I and my love of books and reading don't live up to your rather interesting standards of ethics.

yvanleterrible
12-07-2008, 11:10 AM
There is a little calculation I perform that would rationalize an urge to hoard.

How many books do you read a week, how old are you and how old do you think you'll live up to?

My expectancy would be that I can read an other 400 books. I will choose those with care.

zelda_pinwheel
12-07-2008, 11:24 AM
i like to have plenty of books to choose from, that way i can always find a book that corresponds to my mood. so if a book on mr looks interesting to me, i will download it even if i don't read it right away. i don't have a master reading plan, i just read whatever sounds good at the time. i probably already have more books than i can read. i don't see the harm in that ; i have too many paper books, some of which i've bought and not yet read, and that is annoying because i must store them and dust them and such, but i have no such trouble with ebooks, so why not download lots of them ? at least that way, i know i'll never run out of reading material, and i'll always be able to find something which tempts me.

DannyR
12-07-2008, 11:46 AM
The mandates behind this book collection are to maintain and augment the number of members and to promote the ebook as a support for culture. This is a book by book proposition, again unsuitable for mass transfer.

I'd have to totally disagree. As a "hoarder" myself (I prefer to call myself a collector ;-) I find the opposite to be true. If the book collection were a static thing and never changing, I might see this as being the case, but as books are added those of us who collect ebooks do come back to the sites and participate in them.

I'm just trying to understand your adamant opinion. I'm lucky if I can read 100 books a year. If come here to get them, I'll spend hardly an hour or two over the year to find and download the latest versions. And I'll spend a gazillion hours reading and enjoying them. That's hardly a comparison with downloading many web pages daily via a slow modem.

Lets put it another way. I see this as having the books at your home already, vs having to go to the bookstore or public library each and every time you want to read a book.

Since I have thousands of books already downloaded, I tend to browse my shelves, reading passages from them, much as I do with real books before deciding what to read next. Since I have them already downloaded, I don't have to spend lots of time clicking and downloading as I would have to do here. Likewise by having the books already on my computer, I have discovered lots of things to read that I would probably never have touched based on a simple author name/title. This is because it was already in my collection and I could quickly see what it was about.

Likewise, its the reason I go to bookstores every week to browse their new releases vs just going to a website like Amazon and ordering a new book there. There is something to be said for having a large collection of books in hand and looking over the introductions and first chapters vs just going to a list of books such as may be found on Amazon.com and ordering just by Author/Title name or browsing the titles found here.

vivaldirules
12-07-2008, 11:46 AM
There is a little calculation I perform that would rationalize an urge to hoard.

How many books do you read a week, how old are you and how old do you think you'll live up to?

My expectancy would be that I can read an other 400 books. I will choose those with care.

Okay, now you're depressing me, Yvan. (slowly counting on fingers)

DannyR
12-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Well, feel sorry for you. I read about 2-3 books a week, so if I live to a hundred years I hope to read another 5000 or so books. ;-)

yvanleterrible
12-07-2008, 05:22 PM
Well, feel sorry for you. I read about 2-3 books a week, so if I live to a hundred years I hope to read another 5000 or so books. ;-)Good for you and I really hope to read much much more than the 400 I mentioned!;)

ProDigit
12-08-2008, 04:34 PM
I think a lot of people here are pre-judged against people who prefer downloading 'en-masse' over selective downloads.

Just because something carries a name 'bittorrent', or someone loves to download lots, should not be withheld from him, unless we're going to start placing limits on amounts of downloads one is allowed to do per day...
That would really start messing things up; for every one.

Just because 'you' (noone in specific) are downloading 1 to 2 books a week, does not mean everyone else does things that way...

I find the response of some members of this forum about mass downloading, the same as racism... Just because someone prefers to download lots, doesn't mean you should say 'no' without reason, or no just because "I don't like to", or "that sounds weird, so we should not do this".

I mean, I understand if it not benefits some people; at least don't throw salt in someone else's water when they want to go somewhere.

There are valid points mentioned in making life easier for those who want to download more files at once, regardless of all the opposing thoughts mentioned.

I'm not saying we should replace current system. Just merely add to it the function of mass downloads, which seemingly quite some forummembers desire.

If you're really into downloading book per book, you can still do that the ordinary way.

That's my toughts about it...

DannyR
12-09-2008, 10:10 AM
Well said. There is no reason why both groups can't be accommodated.

DaleDe
12-09-2008, 10:31 AM
I think charging racism is a bit strong. No one I heard was saying anything against you personally about downloading whatever you want. Just because people don't agree with you I do not believe it should descend to claiming personal attacks.

The people who generate the books would like to have some control over their work, which is considerable. It seems to me that the idea of massdownloading causes a lack of control. They will no longer feel that they can understand and be appreciated for the work but the work just becomes another number in hoarding hundreds or thousands of books. The system works today with every download representing a vote of confidence in the person doing the work and shows interest in the types of books being worked on. While the claim is that there may be a way to statistically figure out what books are being downloaded with additional effort the idea of mass downloading means that many may not ever read the eBooks so whats the point?

Dale

Patricia
12-09-2008, 10:43 AM
Thanks, Dale. You've expressed what I feel too.

tompe
12-09-2008, 10:52 AM
The people who generate the books would like to have some control over their work, which is considerable. It seems to me that the idea of massdownloading causes a lack of control. They will no longer feel that they can understand and be appreciated for the work but the work just becomes another number in hoarding hundreds or thousands of books. The system works today with every download representing a vote of confidence in the person doing the work and shows interest in the types of books being worked on. While the claim is that there may be a way to statistically figure out what books are being downloaded with additional effort the idea of mass downloading means that many may not ever read the eBooks so whats the point?


This is related to something that bothers me. I think that status of the uploads here are very unclear. Can you for example take a copy and make whatever you want with it? Or has the uploader some legal control over the copy? I am convinced that the wishes from the uploaders are very diverse so I think it would be a good idea to state them in the description of the book. It wuld also be good to state possible licenses of the upload (like which variant of creative commons).

acidzebra
12-09-2008, 11:01 AM
The "control" is complete illusion - nothing stops a determined person from downloading every single book on MR and then creating a torrent of it. Nothing stops a person from getting a book here and then giving it to another person.

Also I find control a little shaky term, does a proofreader gain control and a say over the content of a book and how it is distributed? (in other ways than the immediately obvious). Remember, you are not building on or otherwise adding to a work in the public domain, you are (and again, I do not wish to shortchange anyone on their massive work), "fixing up" a book.

Why don't you add a little extra page stating "carefully proofread, formatted, and uploaded by X"?

vivaldirules
12-09-2008, 11:01 AM
Your comment on hoarding, Dale, makes me want to comment on one observation I've made which only barely relates to the discussion at hand. That is that the number of downloads of a book is very strongly correlated with the time it's available and much less with the author or subject. That is, you can post a book by an obscure author on an obscure subject and it will be downloaded at least half as often as a recognized classic posted at the same time and the downloading begins almost immediately after posting. This suggests to me that many downloads are by people who either want to have a quick look just to see what it is or else want to possess the books (all of them). In either case, whether they are actually ever read is unknown. I'm not trying to make a judgement about those behaviours, just pointing them out. I personally don't mind so long as nothing "sinister" is being done with them (and no, I'm not suggesting they are).

ProDigit
12-09-2008, 11:34 AM
I think charging racism is a bit strong. No one I heard was saying anything against you personally about downloading whatever you want. Just because people don't agree with you I do not believe it should descend to claiming personal attacks.

The people who generate the books would like to have some control over their work, which is considerable. It seems to me that the idea of massdownloading causes a lack of control. They will no longer feel that they can understand and be appreciated for the work but the work just becomes another number in hoarding hundreds or thousands of books. The system works today with every download representing a vote of confidence in the person doing the work and shows interest in the types of books being worked on. While the claim is that there may be a way to statistically figure out what books are being downloaded with additional effort the idea of mass downloading means that many may not ever read the eBooks so whats the point?

Dale

Honestly, current system does not give you that control you desire...
When I'd love to download classics, there is a guy who uploads all the classics like Alice in Wonderland, and Robinson Croesoe etc...
I can download all the books that that user has uploaded, and I'm very gratefull to that user for uploading these books!
Because this user helps me find those old and great stories!

However, most users upload various types of books without really having a line in their uploads.
Because there are so many clicks, me and many other users really rarely spend time reading the comments of books they want to have.

In the end it comes all down to getting your book, not reading a forum (the book downloadsection that is). I think both are, and should be separated.
You upload the book, I download it.
If I want to, I have a way of saying 'thank you' through the forum, or maybe even comment on some errors on the book.
Multi clicking is not really going to help you being more popular.
A reputation is something you'll have to build up with time.

As much as Patricia and I differ on the topic of multi downloading, I respect her for uploading so many books!
So, either way, you will get credit from people who do like your work, they will automatically find you. But I think there's no way you can force someone to 'respect your work' by making him have to do the multi clicks.

And you may be right; we live in a consumption society, where ease of use, and receiving everything in a speedy way, matters!
Unlike say, 30 years ago when life was more at ease.

If you really want some control for the work you've done, then you should save that book on a local server, and ask a question about the resume you have given, to see if the user really has read all you written about the book, and ask to see if he knows that you have uploaded that book, before he can download it.
I'm sure many will be less gratefull, to you this way! So it works the opposite way.

But for the most part, people are not interested in who edited the book, or uploaded the file...
Like I mentioned, I'm happy about this one user who uploads all the famous stories, but that's really it.
I want to read the book, not comments on the book, or see who has changed the formatting / layout or screened the book.
You can reserve a full page in a book to do that, or heck, use the majority of the book's pages with your name in it!
But I'm not sure that would be a good idea...

I don't expect anyone to read my resume or see my name with my books neither.
I only wish if they find errors they would mention it. So far no responses, which means most people are generally happy with my uploads (though they are far from perfection).

And one user has given me karma for a book I've edited. What more would you want?

Andybaby
12-10-2008, 01:56 AM
i like having a big library of books on my computer because it makes it 20x easier looking for book when you already have it.

if a files been proofread all the better, but it doesnt keep me from reading a book with obvious OCR errors. but then i didnt join this forum to get books, i joined to learn more about ereaders and software relating to ereaders.

mtravellerh
12-10-2008, 09:15 AM
May I throw in my opinion, too?

I do assemble quite a lot of books and I wouldn't appreciate it in the least if one of those books would be drowned in a mass. They are, in my mind, very individual entities that deserve a personal decision for them (a decision just for this specific book). That is quite important for me and I see it as a little gratification for my work on those books. I do this assembling as good as I can and I am quite proud of every single book.

I do not want my books to be part of any mass package or anonymous torrent. If you want them, come here, check the uploads and get it, a little bit like buying a book but without the money.

That's how I see things.

JayCeeEll
12-10-2008, 05:06 PM
The "control" is complete illusion - nothing stops a determined person from downloading every single book on MR and then creating a torrent of it.

If the owners/members of MR don't create a number of good quality torrents there is nothing stopping someone else doing it badly. As the media publishers are finding out, once you have something digitised and on the internet it is out there forever.

Digital content has no value, convenience has value.

Do the job first and do the job well and you may retain some control, leave it to others and "poof" any control you want is gone.

I vote to torrent the MR files by Author and Subject within format.

Any chance of a poll?

Alexander Turcic
12-10-2008, 05:39 PM
Nothing wrong with torrents per se, but I think we must respect the wishes of those whom I count among our most active and contributing members. Whatever their reasons may be, I don't want us to alienate anybody by officially ignoring their wishes and spreading the books through another medium.

Amalthia
12-10-2008, 06:13 PM
I like the idea of being able to mass download the LRF books. Downloading books from MobileRead isn't exactly point and click.

However, the problem with torrents is how do you incorporate updates? Or add the new releases?

right now I don't download books from MobileRead because it takes too long to find what I'm looking for and then to get to the download page (that and picking the format...) So it's a rather frustrating experience. I don't mind browsing to see what is interesting to read or what's new but having found an author I like it would be nice to have the option to hit a button and download all their works at once.

Bittorrents do have some advantages over hosting the files natively. In that for large collections the bandwidth is spread out amongst the users so it doesn't incur step costs to the host server. however, it has some disadavantages as well such as once the torrent is created and people start downloading if a file is updated later you can't just add that to the torrent it would have to be added to another one. Unless torrent technology has improved since I last looked.

I don't get why some of the uploaders are against the idea of mass downloading? I've read through this whole thread and I still don't get the objections. I don't read what the uploader has to say in the first place about the book. I normally check out book summary and file format and download. I've never partipated in any discussion regarding the books I have downloaded from the site. And just because there is no torrent available it's not likely to change my habits into participating. Whereas, I would have really liked to have some way to mass download the stories or find the stories more easily.

Basically, I think the people who want to participate will particapate regardless of the status of how people download the books hosted at mobile read.

tompe
12-10-2008, 06:46 PM
You do not notice updates with the system today. Or can you get and RSS feed or email when a book changes? I downloaded all books by certain authors some time ago and I would really appreciate some way to know if updates are available. That would require that I can see from my copy which version I have.

I also find it to hard to find out if a book by a specific author exist here. Or is there some search trick you can use to find out that?

Elfwreck
12-10-2008, 07:06 PM
At home, I have dialup internet.

Torrents are a godsend. I have torrented 5mb creative commons works, and 95mb videos freely shared by the creator. 5mb takes me about 30 minutes of download time, normally--if it doesn't crash. And in the meantime, I can't do browsing or it slows the download. I can torrent it, which takes much longer, but frees up my online activity.

95mb? I can't download direct at all. Whole install CDs, music by Radiohead, packs of public-domain works... I can download them, a few mb per night, for as long as it takes to get them done.

While I'm on dialup because I'm a luddite freak (I don't have the hardware to switch & have been to lazy/confused to figure it out), there are parts of the US and the rest of the world where high-speed internet is just not available. Torrents, even very small torrents, are very useful things.

Torrents of packs of books--labeled something like "20 Classics From Mobileread" or "Mobileread Mystery And Horror Collection"--selected sets, not "everything available in the sci-fi topic" (but perhaps "Mobileread's most downloaded sci-fi books") might be a good thing

--> Allow new ebook readers to grab a selection of books on a topic of interest, instead of grabbing one, deciding they don't like it, and deciding it's too much hassle to wade through a forum to try to find one they'd like.

--> Allow collectors to get a whole set at once. (Yes, they miss out on updates. However, they do that if they grab the set here, too, and don't check back for later versions.) Especially useful for experienced ebook readers who love the formatting people use here, but already have several versions of many public-domain classics. They may not bother collecting "the good version" if it's a one-at-a-time, search-and-download process.

--> Putting "mobileread" in the name of the torrent, and including a txt file inside describing the forums and policies, allows people who'd otherwise never notice the place existed to find it. (Not that mobileread is hard to find... IF you are looking for ebook reader information. If you're looking for "sherlock holmes stories," not so much.)

--> Having an "official" (or at least sanctioned) forum collection cuts down on the chances of unofficial, unsanctioned sets popping up. There's no geek cred points for making the new, ripoff version of something that's already available in another form--but there are points for taking single-download, one-at-a-time files and collecting them into useful sets.

Amalthia
12-10-2008, 07:24 PM
Torrents of packs of books--labeled something like "20 Classics From Mobileread" or "Mobileread Mystery And Horror Collection"--selected sets, not "everything available in the sci-fi topic" (but perhaps "Mobileread's most downloaded sci-fi books") might be a good thing

--> Allow new ebook readers to grab a selection of books on a topic of interest, instead of grabbing one, deciding they don't like it, and deciding it's too much hassle to wade through a forum to try to find one they'd like.

--> Allow collectors to get a whole set at once. (Yes, they miss out on updates. However, they do that if they grab the set here, too, and don't check back for later versions.) Especially useful for experienced ebook readers who love the formatting people use here, but already have several versions of many public-domain classics. They may not bother collecting "the good version" if it's a one-at-a-time, search-and-download process.

--> Putting "mobileread" in the name of the torrent, and including a txt file inside describing the forums and policies, allows people who'd otherwise never notice the place existed to find it. (Not that mobileread is hard to find... IF you are looking for ebook reader information. If you're looking for "sherlock holmes stories," not so much.)

--> Having an "official" (or at least sanctioned) forum collection cuts down on the chances of unofficial, unsanctioned sets popping up. There's no geek cred points for making the new, ripoff version of something that's already available in another form--but there are points for taking single-download, one-at-a-time files and collecting them into useful sets.

I think I'll let you do all the talking next time. :) well said and you have some very good points. I'd forgotten about dial up users. :(

Dr. Drib
12-10-2008, 07:33 PM
As long as we're having a discussion on this subject, I would have to say "no" to my books being distributed through a torrent site.

I make my books available specifically through MobileRead and wish to support MobileRead in their efforts to make available my "work" (if you will), in addition to making the work of so many other contributors available to members of this community. This has nothing to do with being a moderator. I would continue making books available for as long as I sensed they were welcome here, regardless of a percieved "status."

I would say that many of us are very proud of our work in assembling books made specifically for this site. Making the books available through another site through "torrenting" diffuses their worth in the eyes of this assembler.

We also run into legalities among some books, depending upon what country one is living in when downloading, and MobileRead - as a community - works very hard to maintain and observe those legal lines.

These are just my opinions. :)

Don

RWood
12-10-2008, 09:11 PM
If you go to the MobileRead Wiki and select Notable eBook Uploads (http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/Notable_eBook_Uploads_Available_at_MobileRead) from the main page you are offered a selection of three of MobileRead's most popular collections -- Charles Dickens, Jane Austen, and the Harvard Classics. Selecting any one of these presents a page detailing each volume available and the formats that it is available. The links take you directly to the current version where you may download the book. It is not perfect; but, it does provide a service that keeps you from searching through the index.

On the topic of "collectors", some time ago Jon (JSWolf) noted that someone had downloaded almost all of the books that MobileRead had provided at the point and posted them on the darknet.

I've posted a few books here at MobileRead and I do monitor people's feedback about the books. I do check on how many have viewed the thread and how many have downloaded a certain book in a certain format. This is how the IMP format was added. We posted some and the download counts were high enough to justify their own section. Today when I post a new book at MobileRead I make it in three versions -- LRF, PRC, and IMP. If we had distributed it via a torrent, we would never have known that there were many people interested in IMP format books.

MobileRead has implemented a service for Kindle (and all other direct connect Mobipocket users) whereby they can download a freshly made copy of an index to the MobileRead PRC books and review them as if browsing through a card catalog. Should they see on that they like they can click on it and directly download it to their reader.

SO for my three cents worth (inflation you know), I do not favor torrents for the MobileRead ebooks.

Alexander Turcic
12-11-2008, 01:47 AM
You do not notice updates with the system today. Or can you get and RSS feed or email when a book changes?

I downloaded all books by certain authors some time ago and I would really appreciate some way to know if updates are available. That would require that I can see from my copy which version I have.

I will think about this idea and how it would be possible to implement it. :chinscratch:

I also find it to hard to find out if a book by a specific author exist here.

Couldn't you use the "Search E-Books" feature for that?

kacir
12-11-2008, 02:58 AM
Nothing wrong with torrents per se, but I think we must respect the wishes of those whom I count among our most active and contributing members. Whatever their reasons may be, I don't want us to alienate anybody by officially ignoring their wishes and spreading the books through another medium.
Very well said.

montsnmags
12-11-2008, 04:28 AM
Very well said.

I'll second that.

It's not that I agree with those dedicated and valuable individuals that put such great efforts into the formatting and uploading so many of these great books but would prefer to not to see them torrented. It's rather that, as it appears some other good and respectful people are doing, I'd rather that these dedicated uploaders be convinced of the benefits of torrenting before it might occur, lest it dissuade them from the activity itself. If they're all not happy with it, then, in the end, the current system still leaves me happy with access to well-formatted, free books.

I really appreciate that.

Cheers,
Marc

tompe
12-11-2008, 08:26 AM
Couldn't you use the "Search E-Books" feature for that?

What feature is that? I looked for it now but did not find it.

The problem with the index is that each letter have to many entries so maybe a two level index would be a good idea?

HarryT
12-11-2008, 09:07 AM
What feature is that? I looked for it now but did not find it.

The problem with the index is that each letter have to many entries so maybe a two level index would be a good idea?

Click the "E-Books" link on the blue menu bar under the "MobileRead logo" near the top of the screen, and select the "Browse latest uploads" menu item. On the resulting screen, at the right hand side of the 2nd blue bar (the one saying "E-Book Uploads"), is a link saying "Search E-Books". Click this, and a text box will appear in which you can type either a title or an author name, and you'll get a list of all the books in which that string matches either the title or author's name.

Jellby
12-11-2008, 10:46 AM
Personally, I have no problem with the books I've created being available in packs, mass-downloads, torrents or whatever. The more people enjoying (I hope) my work, the better. But, of course, I would prefer some kind of feedback, comments, etc. (and I'm not going no include my e-mail in the books).

Maybe some kind of page/server/whatever could be set up that would make it more user-friendly for the downloader to get books from MR, something that allows searches, lists the files, lets one tick check-boxes and download every selected file (maybe in a single .zip file)... there could be even some kind of scoring for the "literary quality" of the text and for the "formatting quality" of the ebook, separately.

tompe
12-11-2008, 11:23 AM
Click the "E-Books" link on the blue menu bar under the "MobileRead logo" near the top of the screen, and select the "Browse latest uploads" menu item. On the resulting screen, at the right hand side of the 2nd blue bar (the one saying "E-Book Uploads"), is a link saying "Search E-Books". Click this, and a text box will appear in which you can type either a title or an author name, and you'll get a list of all the books in which that string matches either the title or author's name.

Aha, I did not check under "Browse latest uploads" because I wanted to search among all books and did not expect that to be found under _latest_ uploads.

tompe
12-11-2008, 11:30 AM
I had to look one minute on the page to find "Search E-books". Maybe it is possible to hide the link more but you have to really work for it. Why should I suspect that a heading (that you normally not read) is an important link?

But I do not want to search the contents of E-books. I want to search for author name. So how can I know from that search box that it really will give me all books by an author?

But it seems to work. Thanks for the instruction on how to find it.

tompe
12-11-2008, 11:32 AM
Also searching for "Jane Austen" will not find any books which is confusing.

Patricia
12-11-2008, 11:49 AM
Either "Austen" or "Austen, Jane" will work.

tompe
12-11-2008, 12:37 PM
Either "Austen" or "Austen, Jane" will work.

Yes, in in the google era that is really not very good for a system that is not targeted to professionals like librarians.

DaleDe
12-11-2008, 03:16 PM
Yes, in in the google era that is really not very good for a system that is not targeted to professionals like librarians.

Or someone that knows how to use a telephone book.

Dale

tompe
12-11-2008, 03:35 PM
Or someone that knows how to use a telephone book.


What do you mean? Jane Austen would in my phone book be listed as "Austen Jane" and the search will not find any entry with that either.

Amalthia
12-11-2008, 03:36 PM
Guys, when a user comes along and lets you know the system isn't user friendly it means that possibly a lot more users had the same problem but were too shy to speak up about it, or embarrased. the fact is the downloading book section and searching isn't user friendly. It took me a bit to figure it out and I was bored at work with nothing to do for 8 hours, so I had time to figure it out. Not everyone has that time.

Halo
12-12-2008, 12:43 AM
There are omnibus editions. Maybe we should have more,I don't know if we should. But what I'd like to see is that as we read the book we have gotten, we should really go back to its original thread and post our appreciation or comments about the works.I agree.

There is an other consideration I would like to underline. A property right to the visual format of the uploader. Lots of care is worked into these books, shouldn't the uploader at least be asked permission about "torrenting"?Are these ebooks not freely redistributable? Am I committing copyright infringement if I download a book from MobileRead and later decide to give a copy of the ebook to a friend? Please clarify as I think this is more important that the torrent issue.

And why should we get books that we'll never read? That's hoarding.Why would it matter to you that other people might wish to hoard books? With electronic information there is no scarcity of goods as with physical books. If someone decides to collect a copy of every legally redistributable ebook what disservice does that do to you? Please elaborate on what the core issue is that you object to.

Alexander Turcic
12-16-2008, 10:00 AM
Guys, when a user comes along and lets you know the system isn't user friendly it means that possibly a lot more users had the same problem but were too shy to speak up about it, or embarrased.

I agree 100%. There are lot's of things we could improve to improve usability and we intend to work on that! Of course, with everyone's input, it'd be a lot easier. Now, I like the way we are going with this, because before we were only discussing why things couldn't be moved to torrents; obviously not to everyone's liking. Now we talk about improving our built-in system, which is, I assume, in everyone's interest. :p

mtravellerh
12-16-2008, 03:20 PM
I agree.

Are these ebooks not freely redistributable? Am I committing copyright infringement if I download a book from MobileRead and later decide to give a copy of the ebook to a friend? Please clarify as I think this is more important that the torrent issue.

Why would it matter to you that other people might wish to hoard books? With electronic information there is no scarcity of goods as with physical books. If someone decides to collect a copy of every legally redistributable ebook what disservice does that do to you? Please elaborate on what the core issue is that you object to.

Ad 1 These books , for sure, are free to be redistributed as you see fit as long as you do not charge any money for it.

Ad2 I am a hoarder myself, so that is not the point for me. My point is that a torrent would only make sense if there would be (anonymous) packages.

We really should be able to optimize our system of distribution without having to put the books in packages and massmail them. Maybe we should move away from the forum interface and create a new GUI?

Why not make a Wikilike interface with books sorted by author with their respective online works, books by format and books by genre with clickable menus or is that too complicated? I would be willing to fill in a SQL mask and infos when uploading if that would simplify the access.

tompe
12-16-2008, 03:25 PM
Ad 1 These books , for sure, are free to be redistributed as you see fit as long as you do not charge any money for it.


Why this restriction? If the books are in the public domain you can charge money for them. If they are not in the public domain or under a CC license the it is very hard to know what holds.

mtravellerh
12-16-2008, 03:39 PM
Why this restriction? If the books are in the public domain you can charge money for them. If they are not in the public domain or under a CC license the it is very hard to know what holds.

I speak only for myself, but: Because we, the makers of these books distribute these books freely, there shouldn't be anybody who charges for them.

If this small condition really IS a problem, I am prepared to put all my books under CC.

I must say that I am quite disgusted by the fact that there seems to be a problem about this claim.:smack:

tompe
12-16-2008, 03:54 PM
The question posed was:


Are these ebooks not freely redistributable? Am I committing copyright infringement if I download a book from MobileRead and later decide to give a copy of the ebook to a friend? Please clarify as I think this is more important that the torrent issue.


If the books based on Gutenberg books and posted here are in the public domain then anybody can do anything with the book. The question is if they are in the public domain or not?

The CC books is of course not in the public domain. But what holds for the other books based on public domain texts?

DaleDe
12-16-2008, 04:39 PM
The question posed was:



If the books based on Gutenberg books and posted here are in the public domain then anybody can do anything with the book. The question is if they are in the public domain or not?

The CC books is of course not in the public domain. But what holds for the other books based on public domain texts?

Does it only have to be based on a Gutenberg book? It the book has elements of Gutenberg but was extensively modified, fixed, images added, etc. then is the results still in the PD? Books that are translated have a whole new copyright. What about other books that are not language translated but format translated? I think we need to respect the wishes of those who did the work and the rules of the forum related to eBooks submitted here.

Dale

Patricia
12-16-2008, 05:42 PM
Our books are from a variety of sources.
1. Some are texts uploaded by the authors themselves, or with the permission of the authors. They hold the copyright and it is up to them whether they give permission for personal downloads only. Any commercial use is forbidden without explicit permission.
2. Other books are CC, so are distributable only under the terms of the particular CC licence.
3. Yet others are public domain. Now it is obvious that people can do what they like (in a non-commercial way) with, say a PG text. And many public domain books are available for sale too. If uploaders have just done a spot of reformatting then there is no problem: the book remains in the public domain. If they have done extensive work on a text then there is a case for saying that they have made a derivative work.

But Tompe is conflating two different issues. Yes, you can publish your own version of Dickens or Jane Austen. They are in the Public Domain everywhere.

However, you cannot use a Project Gutenberg file as the source without complying with the Project Gutenberg regulations about commercial use. (Basically, they want a royalty for commercial use of their files and for the PG headers to be removed entirely.)

By parity of argument, our uploaders seem to have consented to sharing their work in a non-commercial way. But they have not given any permission for their work to be sold. I, for one, would be GROSSLY OFFENDED if my uploads were ripped off and sold. They are free gifts to forum members and visitors. And I feel dismayed by the mere suggestion that a gift be so corrupted.

tompe
12-16-2008, 05:48 PM
Does it only have to be based on a Gutenberg book? It the book has elements of Gutenberg but was extensively modified, fixed, images added, etc. then is the results still in the PD?


I am interested in what holds. And if some copyright goes to the person doing the book then I would like the license for that part to be stated in the book or in the post containing the book.

I think you need to modify the work a lot for it not to be in the public domain.

That got me curious about another thing. In OpenStretMap you cannot check the map you are tracing against a copyrighted map to avoid legal problems. So are all books here checked against non-copyrighted texts?

tompe
12-16-2008, 05:54 PM
However, you cannot use a Project Gutenberg file as the source without complying with the Project Gutenberg regulations about commercial use. (Basically, they want a royalty for commercial use of their files and for the PG headers to be removed entirely.)


I did not know about that. And I do not seem to remember that information in the books I have read from here and that i know is based on project Gutenberg texts. The information that it was based on a project Gutenberg text was removed.

It the book uploaded here is a derivative work I think it would be a good idea to state the conditions for redistribution in the upload.

Patricia
12-16-2008, 05:58 PM
I did not know about that. And I do not seem to remember that information in the books I have read from here and that i know is based on project Gutenberg texts. The information that it was based on a project Gutenberg text was removed.


It is quite simple. Just read the project Gutenberg licence attached to each of their files, and follow the links.

tompe
12-16-2008, 06:06 PM
However, you cannot use a Project Gutenberg file as the source without complying with the Project Gutenberg regulations about commercial use. (Basically, they want a royalty for commercial use of their files and for the PG headers to be removed entirely.)


I looked at Project Gutenberg's web site and for public domain books there does not seem to be any commercial restrictions:

These books are in the public domain in the United States and everybody including Project Gutenberg and you may read and distribute them. If you don't live in the United States you'll have to check the laws of the country you live in before downloading and distributing our ebooks.

A Project Gutenberg ebook is made out of two parts: the public domain book and the non public domain Project Gutenberg trademark and license. If you strip the Project Gutenberg license and all references to Project Gutenberg from the ebook, you are left with a public domain ebook. You can do anything you want with that.

tompe
12-16-2008, 06:07 PM
It is quite simple. Just read the project Gutenberg licence attached to each of their files, and follow the links.

I meant that the information was missing from the books here at MobileRead that are based on Gutenberg texts. Or maybe I just have not read any book that are based on a Gutenberg text with commercial restrictions.

tompe
12-16-2008, 06:14 PM
I meant that the information was missing from the books here at MobileRead that are based on Gutenberg texts. Or maybe I just have not read any book that are based on a Gutenberg text with commercial restrictions.

And that probably is because you only have to pay royalties if you keep the project gutenberg name in the book and then sell it.

Elfwreck
12-16-2008, 08:30 PM
I am interested in what holds. And if some copyright goes to the person doing the book then I would like the license for that part to be stated in the book or in the post containing the book.

I think you need to modify the work a lot for it not to be in the public domain.

The *text* is still in the public domain. The format is copyrighted by the person who creates the layout. That's how publishers can "copyright" the works of Shakespeare.

The books offered here are "free to download for the users of Mobileread forums." Some are public domain texts and open to any use. Some are creative commons and can't be sold w/o permission. Some are perhaps offered here specifically, and there's no permission to put them on other sites.

Nobody's going back through several thousand ebooks to figure out which ones are legal to sell, or archive elsewhere... the purpose of posting them is free ebook exchange. People who want to use them for commercial purposes will have to do their own legwork, sorting out who owns the various rights and contacting whoever's necessary.

Nate the great
12-16-2008, 09:18 PM
A number of the people in this thread are wrong about copyright, but that's not important.

I do not see why this discussion has continued. Several of our more prolific uploaders do not want a torrent. Alex does not want a torrent. None of the moderators are in favor of a torrent. It's just not going to happen.

I want to propose a compromise. We already have a Mobipocket Download Guide, and download guide for IMP is on the to-do list. I think Alex might also be willing to create a similar guide for LRF. (This would probably be in HTML or EPUB.)

HarryT
12-17-2008, 02:50 AM
I spend on average, 3-4 weeks at about 4 hours a day creating one of my Dickens books. That's about 80-100 hours of work to create the book. I then upload it for people to download for free.

Quite frankly I'm disappointed that there are some people who have the confounded cheek to WHINE about the fact that it takes 3 mouse clicks to download it, rather then being "optimized" to allow them to "grab all the free stuff" with the least possible work :( :( :(

Might I respectfully suggest to some of the people with free time on their hands that they would be more profitably employed in creating some books themselves, to share with others?

ProDigit
12-17-2008, 07:31 PM
I've worked on my books long enough too, 48 hours on the YLT bible.
Yet I don't mind making the downloading of the book easier.
I don't mind someone mass downloading.

A question might be, why do you so much want someone to go through the trouble of multi clicks, just because you formatted the book?
As someone who works on books supposed to know, clicking and typing, is work.
Effort.
Why wish that upon someone else?
Isn't that why you post books on here? To make them easily accessible for anyone?


If from tomorrow, everyone's books would be 1-click downloads, except for yours, wouldn't it make your books a bit 'out of place'?

I think it has to do with a personal pride issue, where you don't want to grant someone something easy what you've worked hard on,and yes, that's another issue that everyone who creates books here gets faced with.

I don't think we thanked the people of Gutenberg enough for their efforts neither!

For it takes longer and more effort to actually create electronic version from the print, and post it online, than it does to format a book.

I think you should know you're doing work for free, and that apart from Karma, and some people's appreciation, there's nothing you'd earn from creating books.

I mean, it's nothing personal to you, but I've read over and over again, people who just say no, because they've worked hard, don't want to, or whatever personal emotion they may have, and want people to see their names...
And for real.. If you go to the movies, the last thing you'd probably see is the credits.
Most people are out of the movies (cinema) before the credits start. They just wanna see the movie, and honestly don't care about who made it.

And same goes for here..
And same goes for my books as well.

I'm happy if someone takes the time to thank me for my work, but will never make someone's life more miserable just because he or she did not credit me for the book they downloaded from me.

This credit issue should be separate from making the access easier to some that want easy access to the books.

That'd be my say in it.:angry:
Nono, I may sound angry, but I'm not.. lol.. :)

Amalthia
12-19-2008, 12:41 AM
I spend on average, 3-4 weeks at about 4 hours a day creating one of my Dickens books. That's about 80-100 hours of work to create the book. I then upload it for people to download for free.

Quite frankly I'm disappointed that there are some people who have the confounded cheek to WHINE about the fact that it takes 3 mouse clicks to download it, rather then being "optimized" to allow them to "grab all the free stuff" with the least possible work :( :( :(

Might I respectfully suggest to some of the people with free time on their hands that they would be more profitably employed in creating some books themselves, to share with others?

Hi Harry,

I also spend a lot of time formatting stories for the Ebook Library and I've shared all the files in various ways since I opened the archive. For most people downloading the story they find works just fine for them but there are cases where it's really nice to be able to download a lot at once and run out the door.

I think because I never minded sharing my efforts with others I have a hard time seeing the other pov.

Ea
12-19-2008, 02:24 AM
#107 ProDigit and #108 Amalthia
I tried writing something along these lines Wednesday, but gave up as I couldn't express myself properly. You can, however - thank you.

I've had a discussion like this about publishing fanfiction in zines vs. the Internet, with the exact same type of arguments for and against. I don't see myself why things should be made more difficult on purpose. I believe I understand the feelings behind being reluctant to share freely, because I also feel protective of the things I create, and I like getting recognition, but then I think of all the free content and entertainment I get from the Internet - it's just giving back, and why not make it as easily accessible as I can?

Signed,
A. Whiner :xmas:

mtravellerh
12-20-2008, 01:59 PM
#107 ProDigit and #108 Amalthia
I tried writing something along these lines Wednesday, but gave up as I couldn't express myself properly. You can, however - thank you.

I've had a discussion like this about publishing fanfiction in zines vs. the Internet, with the exact same type of arguments for and against. I don't see myself why things should be made more difficult on purpose. I believe I understand the feelings behind being reluctant to share freely, because I also feel protective of the things I create, and I like getting recognition, but then I think of all the free content and entertainment I get from the Internet - it's just giving back, and why not make it as easily accessible as I can?

Signed,
A. Whiner :xmas:
Nobody is "reluctant to share freely" and we all do. We support strongly ameliorations that simplify the access to "our" books. What we do not support is anonymous p2p sharing! You are fighting against windmills here.

tompe
12-20-2008, 02:50 PM
Nobody is "reluctant to share freely" and we all do. We support strongly ameliorations that simplify the access to "our" books. What we do not support is anonymous p2p sharing! You are fighting against windmills here.

I do not think you understand the point. If you share something freely that is for me that you do not add condition on the sharing with the purpose to get something back. You do not feel that you have to get something back personally. What I see here is that people want to get something back.

That is the same attitude I see in forums when people get angry when they do not get karma or similar.

I just think it is two clashing viewpoints. I do thins and contribute them to make things better. I do not do it for personal gain (like receiving thanks and so on).

I have no problem with people doing things and having condition on it. But it is not sharing freely.

mazzeltjes
12-20-2008, 03:05 PM
What we do not support is anonymous p2p sharing!
So downloading from the forum is a more private
personal thing ?
Like we all know each other ?
:eek::eek::eek::eek:

In my opinion someone might easily download all
the books here in a weekend or 2,and torrent them.

By sharing these books here they are being shared
with any googler.
Why not keep the matter in your own hands
and torrent them ?
Sort of a Gutenberg project re-loaded,
in big bites.

mtravellerh
12-20-2008, 03:34 PM
I do not think you understand the point. If you share something freely that is for me that you do not add condition on the sharing with the purpose to get something back. You do not feel that you have to get something back personally. What I see here is that people want to get something back.

That is the same attitude I see in forums when people get angry when they do not get karma or similar.

I just think it is two clashing viewpoints. I do thins and contribute them to make things better. I do not do it for personal gain (like receiving thanks and so on).

I have no problem with people doing things and having condition on it. But it is not sharing freely.

I think quite honestly that you are the one not getting the point here.

1: There are legal issues with distributing these books via bittorrent, especially concerning copyright and the hosting places of the respective sharers. Really not good to even begin to think about this.
2: I wouldn't like to have to download tens or hundreds of books to get the one I want.
3: There is no personal gain or honor in it for us ebook assemblers. I wouldn't mind cooperating in an anonymous book portal (oh, in fact I DO cooperate in several) and do not feel less well because of it (maybe I like to share and give back).
4. I prefer a userfriendly book interface with facts about the author and book and description of genre.

yvanleterrible
12-20-2008, 04:12 PM
As a last ditch effort to explain my views and feelings about it all, I'll just say this. I'm pretty sure it will be criticized and called provocation.

A book is a consumable such as food. It is to be enjoyed one meal at a time as the need and taste arises. Would I order 1000 burgers in one shot, just because I can? No, and no books do not spoil as food does, but is there no enjoyment in choosing the next reading? I often do research on a work before I savor it; and that in itself is also entertainment.

eboulimia? Probably that "huge data acquisition" thing might be a pleasure but it does not reach me as such. Consider me blind to this. If it is a bragging right about owning a big library, I will understand. Although it does not appeal to me.(It reminds me of those big filled high capacity SD cards.)

Old fashionned? Yes I am. I've been raised as a reader to wait for the next book from an author. Having to wait for a book makes it more enjoyable, just as it is for any promise that fulfills itself. The longer the better...sometimes. :p

Krystian Galaj
12-20-2008, 05:34 PM
Do you buy bread in chunks, only as big as you want to eat for every meal too?

Andurian
12-20-2008, 05:35 PM
"A book is a consumable such as food. It is to be enjoyed one meal at a time as the need and taste arises."

And the ten thousand year old tradition of the larder is dead.

Not to mention the shockingly barbaric concept of the home library.

Amalthia
12-20-2008, 06:03 PM
I don't see why adding an attached notepad with information about MobileRead to the torrents wouldn't work? As well as a list of who contributed the ebooks. Demoniod has a policy where if you use their torrent tracker you're supposed to let people know it's a demonoid torrent. Basically, using the attached notepad for possible mobileread torrents would be one way to impart information for anyone downloading torrents. Torrents don't have to be completely anonymous and void of information as to who contributed.

Also, 1 file with 4 gigs of books is probably impractical. I'm not sure why that keeps coming up when it's been said earlier that the best way to use torrents if they were to be used would be in smaller grouping of files.

ProDigit
12-22-2008, 01:18 PM
I initially started out with the topic to torrent the books; however after some time we all agreed on this thread, that torrenting would be too difficult to maintain, and the cost of organizing, updating, maintaining will outnumber the benefit of only very few who use bittorrent to download 'everything'.

the creation of 'packs' could be good as long as users don't change the name of their ebook files when updating.

A lot of the latter replies on the topic have already been discussed previous in the thread.

So far I think the best solution would be to have 'packs' available. Eg: "Harvard classic pack", or packs on authors, or topics (eg: thriller, Christianity, SF, roman,...)

Jellby
12-22-2008, 01:35 PM
So far I think the best solution would be to have 'packs' available. Eg: "Harvard classic pack", or packs on authors, or topics (eg: thriller, Christianity, SF, roman,...)

And those packs could be user-created, some sort of "playlist". Let's brainstorm:

I want to make available a pack with all Edgar Wallace's works in mobipocket format, which HarryT has already posted individually. I start a thread (maybe in a dedicated forum) or edit a Wiki page... and with some "nice-ish" interface I select the files I want to include in the pack... and then anyone can download it as a single .zip file or whatever.

I can, of course, (or anyone else) edit the pack and add or remove files. Ideally, if some of the files already in the pack is updated, this would automatically update the pack as well, but if not possible, at least a note should appear in the post or page saying that "some files have been modified since the pack's creation, the changes are not transmitted to the pack" or whatever.

Does it sound right?

Alexander Turcic
12-23-2008, 03:41 AM
I am not trying to take any sides here but just wanted to throw in that we've always offered our full support in improving the e-book section - which could include easier access to the downloads and to downloads of similar content. ;)

mtravellerh
12-23-2008, 03:57 AM
I am not trying to take any sides here but just wanted to throw in that we've always offered our full support in improving the e-book section - which could include easier access to the downloads and to downloads of similar content. ;)

My feelings exactly!

By the way, if you people want to create a legal book torrent or torrents, why don't you just go ahead and do so. But please do not forget the legal issue I have brought up earlier in this thread. Nearly all over Europe copyright is life plus 70.

steen
12-23-2008, 03:49 PM
I think, to me, the biggest disadvantage to torrenting is seeding. So many people won't seed or they'll seed at the slowest rate possible. But that's conditional and depends primarily on the group.

And, to quell some of the earlier concerns about downloading the full torrent to get one file, uTorrent is a BT client that allows you to pick and choose what files you want (as long as they're not archived, like in a ZIP file) as well as what download/upload speeds you want.

I personally don't see a major problem with the ebook section but I don't mind a few extra clicks.