Having pre-ordered a PRS 700 I have decided to auction my old reader on eBay. My question is: Can I legally sell it with my library of books in memory? The majority are Connect purchased best sellers complete with DRM.

Hughdal

I believe that the answer is "no". The books are not transferrable to a different person, unless you transfer your entire Connect account to that person.

To say nothing of the fact that the reader should be de-registered from your account or the new purchaser may not be able to register it in their own name and account. Once that happens, your connect books may not work anyway.

When the 700 comes (we're down to 3 weeks if the shipping date is accurate on the Sony web-site) you'll register that with your Connect account and all your books will become available again.

When the 700 comes (we're down to 3 weeks if the shipping date is accurate on the Sony web-site)

Let's hope it is accurate. Borders has the PRS-700 listed as well with a release date of Dec 2nd.

When you register a 500 or 505 to a different account, any books from the eBookstore purchased with the previous account will no longer work as the DRM will not allow them to.

.....to continue the discussion: Even if it was legal, the way Sony works all this is that the Reader needs to be de-registered.

Failing to de-register a Reader means that it is still on your Account, and there only a fixed number of devices (Reader; Computer) that you can have. You will WANT to de-register that Reader if you let go.

Don

Thanks for the informed answers. Seems like a bit of a con though. if I buy a paper back book I can legally sell it on if I remove the cover. Don't know the law on hard back books.

Hughdal

Thanks for the informed answers. Seems like a bit of a con though. if I buy a paper back book I can legally sell it on if I remove the cover. Don't know the law on hard back books.

Hughdal

If that's true, then why does the first page of a book say something to the effect of "If the cover is missing, this book was stolen"?

When you sell a physical book, you sell the book completely. When you sell an eBook, you can (in most cases) still have access to download another copy or actually keep a copy. So there is no way to guarantee you've actually sold the eBook and no longer have any access to it.

If that's true, then why does the first page of a book say something to the effect of "If the cover is missing, this book was stolen"?
Because when a book is remaindered, the cover is taken off and any book without a cover is not to be sold. So the only way to get it is to get it illegally.

If that's true, then why does the first page of a book say something to the effect of "If the cover is missing, this book was stolen"?

Probably because if a shop have sent back the cover and got the money in exchange for them destroying the book the the shop have stolen it. But that does not hold for ordinary customs.

When you sell a physical book, you sell the book completely. When you sell an eBook, you can (in most cases) still have access to download another copy or actually keep a copy. So there is no way to guarantee you've actually sold the eBook and no longer have any access to it.

And you could have made a photocopy of the physical book. So what?

Thanks for the informed answers. Seems like a bit of a con though. if I buy a paper back book I can legally sell it on if I remove the cover. Don't know the law on hard back books.

Hughdal

If you are selling a used book, you don't need to remove the cover. THe whole issue of removed covers actual comes back into the illegal area. When a book store (or other retailer) can't sell a book, they will commonly rip the front covers off and return them to the distributor who will then credit their account. At this point, the retailer is supposed to throw them away or recycle the books. This is commonly called stripping the books. The main reasoning for this is to save on shipping unsold books back and forth. Some smaller retailers (and some not smaller) will sell them at a super discount or give them away. At this point, they are committing fraud by claiming the books were destroyed and then sold them. Some book publishers do not support the stripping of books and require that the unsold copies be returned to them so they can be resold through other outlets.

When I was a kid, my dad worked for Montgomery Ward and they had a book section. Every week or so, I would get to go look through the boxes of books that stripped and take what I wanted for like 25¢ each. I am very grateful for this since we had very little money when I was growing up, so it let me read more and not have to make trips to the library (which I pretty much lived at).

I know there was a company I worked for the did a similar thing with magazines. They cut the top couple inches off the covers and sent them back for credit. Then the stripped magazines went in the staff lounge.

This is not an issue with ebooks, of course, since there is no physical book to resale ala used books stores. Just one of the concessions you make to purchasing a non-physical item. You don't actually own anything more than a copy of specialized code.

Sorry for the hijack.

And you could have made a photocopy of the physical book. So what?
True you could have. But most people won't have. Odds are a lot greater of a copy of the eBook kept then the pBook copied.

Thanks for the informed answers. Seems like a bit of a con though.And another person discovers the "joys" of DRM. :sad2:

When you register a 500 or 505 to a different account, any books from the eBookstore purchased with the previous account will no longer work as the DRM will not allow them to.

Actually, I don't think this is correct. The books should still work on that reader unless you have to physically connect the reader to the Sony store to unregister it. I think they'd have to be able to unregister it without a connection or a broken reader couldn't be unregistered.

Where the DRM would get the new owner (assuming the previous owner "accidentally" left books on it) is they would not be able to re-download those books.

If you have books on a 500 or 505 and you can read them and then you register said reader to another account, the DRM LRX books on it will no longer be able to be read.

Thanks for the informed answers. Seems like a bit of a con though. if I buy a paper back book I can legally sell it on if I remove the cover.

Not really a con. Also, if you are buying a 700 to replace your 50X then you still own the ebooks. They are still on your account. Once you register your 700 to your account you will be able to read all of your purchased ebooks.

I do think however that if you read the user license for buying from the eStore that it does say you are licensing the ebooks for your own use and can not transfer the license. So, you basically agreed to this "con" by buying ebooks from the store.

Also, you don't remove the cover of a book to sell it used. Books with the cover removed are books that were not sold originally at retail. This is supposed to indicate to other retailers (new or used) that they are not legal used books and should not be sold.

BOb


BOb

Not really a con. Also, if you are buying a 700 to replace your 50X then you still own the ebooks. They are still on your account. Once you register your 700 to your account you will be able to read all of your purchased ebooks.
But you will have to redownload the eBook so they have the info in them for the 700.

But you will have to redownload the eBook so they have the info in them for the 700.

Not. The ebooks are encrypted to the account, not a specific device. This is different than say Kindle which you need to d/l for a specific device.

BOb

Not. The ebooks are encrypted to the account, not a specific device. This is different than say Kindle which you need to d/l for a specific device.

BOb
When you register a new device to your account, the books you've already downloaded do not know anything about the new device. The DRM will not allow them to be used in this new device. You do have to download the books again in order to put them on the new device.

When you register a new device to your account, the books you've already downloaded do not know anything about the new device. The DRM will not allow them to be used in this new device. You do have to download the books again in order to put them on the new device.

So, this doesn't track with the other message you sent about books breaking as soon as you deregister.

Either the ebooks are encrypted to the specific device and they would work whether it was registered or not... or the ebook are encrypted to the account of which some type of key is embedded in the reader when it is registered and unregistering it removes that key from it.

Have you registered a second device to your account, coppied ebooks to it that you already had downloaded and they didn't work? If so, I guess it is possible that the same file is encrypted for multiple keys like mobipocket does it, but they why would they stop working as soon as you deregistered the device.

BOb

When I first got my 500, I registered my own account. My wife's 500 I plugged into my account to download a book I purchased so she could read it as well. I had to register her 500 on my account. When I did that, her books did not work. Had to register her 500 back to her account. Then her books worked and mine did not. I think it's the books are registered to the account & the devices.

When you register a 500 or 505 to a different account, any books from the eBookstore purchased with the previous account will no longer work as the DRM will not allow them to.

Gotta love DRM...That's why I would never nor have I ever used their Connect store. If I ever sell my reader, whoever gets it is getting all my books too. Just another copy of 1s and 0s. Everyone should read "The Right to Read" by Richard Stallman for an example of why DRM should never be supported.

Ok. Got all that. So, can I legally LOAN a book to someone? If so, I could loan my PRS500 with book content to [person unknown] along with my existing account (with details ammended to the unknown persons details) and leave it registered on my pc. for, let's say, a $100 lifetime loan. Then register my new PRS700 under my true details which are now unique since I changed my original registration. Since Sony allows 5 ebook devices registered to one PC this should not be a problem. Now, in effect, I have become a LIBRARY which is perfectly legal!

Hughdal

The only problem will be when you buy the 750 and the 800 and a second PC and then the 850, and you still have the 500 and the 505 and suddenly you're out of devices.

And the $100 lifetime "loan" with that device linked through your computer and that person who is paying the $100 won't be able to add any other DRM books.

But as you describe things, yes it would technically be legal.

The only problem will be when you buy the 750 and the 800 and a second PC and then the 850, and you still have the 500 and the 505 and suddenly you're out of devices.

I don't think so. I think you can have 6 devices per ACCOUNT. I don't know if they only allow you to register the PC once though (they do limit a device to one account). Someone in a thread... maybe it was this one, suggested setting up a different windows account to be able to use two sony accounts on the same PC. So, if that works you don't have any practical limit.

BOb

Thanks for the informed answers. Seems like a bit of a con though. if I buy a paper back book I can legally sell it on if I remove the cover. Don't know the law on hard back books.

Hughdal

Wasn't what you were considering doing itself a "con"? ie selling your books as a "sweetener" for the deal with the 505, and then buying a PRS-700 onto which you could simply re-download those same books and carry on reading them?

Ok. Got all that. So, can I legally LOAN a book to someone? If so, I could loan my PRS500 with book content to [person unknown] along with my existing account (with details ammended to the unknown persons details) and leave it registered on my pc. for, let's say, a $100 lifetime loan. Then register my new PRS700 under my true details which are now unique since I changed my original registration. Since Sony allows 5 ebook devices registered to one PC this should not be a problem. Now, in effect, I have become a LIBRARY which is perfectly legal!

Hughdal
That won't work. Because if you did loan your account to someone, you'd also be loaning the ability to purchase eBooks on your credit card. And if you did keep access to the account and got this other person to change the details, you'd then have access to this other person's credit card to purchase eBooks. It's a bit FAIL as far as I can see.

I don't think so. I think you can have 6 devices per ACCOUNT. I don't know if they only allow you to register the PC once though (they do limit a device to one account). Someone in a thread... maybe it was this one, suggested setting up a different windows account to be able to use two sony accounts on the same PC. So, if that works you don't have any practical limit.

BOb
A given computer can only be registered once. So you could not use your computer on multiple accounts. Just like your reader can only be registered to one account. So basically, you can have one computer and 5 readers registered at most.

Yes Harry is was a 'sweetener' idea but I've finished reading those books (junk fiction) so I wouldn't re-load them again on to my 700. To my way of thinking these are 2nd hand books and I am trying to legally pass them on to the next owner. By selling the reader with the registered books on board I am still abiding by Sony's 'rules' (1 book - 1 device). Gotcha!

Hughdal

Yes Harry is was a 'sweetener' idea but I've finished reading those books (junk fiction) so I wouldn't re-load them again on to my 700. To my way of thinking these are 2nd hand books and I am trying to legally pass them on to the next owner. By selling the reader with the registered books on board I am still abiding by Sony's 'rules' (1 book - 1 device). Gotcha!

Hughdal
In my case, I could sell or give away my account as the credit card currently registered there is invalid. But if your account has a valid card registered, you'd need a new valid card in order to change it. And do you really think an unknown person would give that to you? Nope.

Yes Harry is was a 'sweetener' idea but I've finished reading those books (junk fiction) so I wouldn't re-load them again on to my 700. To my way of thinking these are 2nd hand books and I am trying to legally pass them on to the next owner. By selling the reader with the registered books on board I am still abiding by Sony's 'rules' (1 book - 1 device). Gotcha!

Hughdal

Understood. You could do that by transferring the entire Connect account over to the new purchaser. What the practicalities of doing that are, I don't know.

Understood. You could do that by transferring the entire Connect account over to the new purchaser. What the practicalities of doing that are, I don't know.
By transferring the account, you also transfer the credit card details registered to that account and if the card is still valid, then that person could just use it to purchase more books.

A given computer can only be registered once. So you could not use your computer on multiple accounts. Just like your reader can only be registered to one account. So basically, you can have one computer and 5 readers registered at most.

That's what I figured... but that is still per account. So, if you have two PCs and two accounts you can have 12 devices.

Does anyone know if the Sony software sees each VM as a different PC device?

BOb

By transferring the account, you also transfer the credit card details registered to that account and if the card is still valid, then that person could just use it to purchase more books.

Can't you just remove the card? Or, edit it to a one time card that you then cancel? I think transferring an account wouldn't be a big deal... but, of course, once you transfer it the new owner should certainly change the password as their first action.

BOb

Perhaps I could max out the memory with my best sellers, innstruct the rentor not to register the reader until they have read all the books and 'rent' the 500 as a collection. When they had finished reading the books they could then register the reader (which would invalidate the books in memeory) and buy or download their own reading material. Would that be legal?

Hughdal

Perhaps I could max out the memory with my best sellers, innstruct the rentor not to register the reader until they have read all the books and 'rent' the 500 as a collection. When they had finished reading the books they could then register the reader (which would invalidate the books in memeory) and buy or download their own reading material. Would that be legal?

Hughdal

I don't think any of this is actually legal but it would circumvent the enforcement.

Dale

If you have to keep asking if it's legal and how to do it so that you can circumvent the EULA you agreed to with Sony...don't you think that's a pretty good indication that what you're doing isn't allowed under those rules?

You agreed to the rules when you bought the books. DRM sucks - I agree - but not liking the rules doesn't give you carte blanche to willfully disregard them.

I think it's time to close this thread. Thanks for all the input and brainstorming from the mobilread forum members. It's been enlightning (kind of like the PRS700). End of the day my PRS500 will either get passed on to a friend or family member (minus books) or spend the remainder of it's day's gathering dust in the back of a closet as it's battery slowly drains away until...........

Hughdal

the topic of DRM seems quite complex to me.
I wanted to know, imagine you buy a device second hand, you can't buy any books unless the previous owner unregisters the connection between his account and the kindle you bought?

Also, suppose you have some ebooks on a PRS-505, and someone steals the device,
can you buy a new device (eg: PRS-700) and still download previous books on the 700, without needing to pay them all over again?

Another question:
Suppose you register a 505 on your name. Someone steals it, and sells it on ebay.
The buyer did not do anything illegal, since he never knew in the first place that the device was stolen. But he won't be able to buy any ebooks,right?
On top of that, you (who lost the 505),buy another device (700)and want to buy new books for your 700. Do they also appear on the 505 when the new owner connect it to the internet?

Can I buy e-books on various computers,or is it really limited to 1 computer?

This topic makes me a bit uneasy concerning buying second hand readers off the internet.

I'm sure one could press the 'reset' button on the back, but I doubt that would solve the issue of buying books...

Can't you just remove the card? Or, edit it to a one time card that you then cancel? I think transferring an account wouldn't be a big deal... but, of course, once you transfer it the new owner should certainly change the password as their first action.

BOb
The card has to be legit when the details are entered. And getting a card just to put in new details just to be able to give away or sell the account is not good for your credit rating.

That's what I figured... but that is still per account. So, if you have two PCs and two accounts you can have 12 devices.

Does anyone know if the Sony software sees each VM as a different PC device?

BOb
When my wife and I had seperate accounts, we could have had a total of 10 registered readers. But her reader would not rewad books in my account and visa-versa. And when you plug in your reader to a different account and authorize it, the books from the account the reader used to be registered with no longer work. But the books to the account it's now registered to will work.

No idea on the VM sessions.

The card has to be legit when the details are entered. And getting a card just to put in new details just to be able to give away or sell the account is not good for your credit rating.

What getting a card. I just go onto Citibanks web site, and request a one time use number. I set the limit to .10 or something and use that. Once I've done that I can go into citibank and cancel that card.

BOb

What getting a card. I just go onto Citibanks web site, and request a one time use number. I set the limit to .10 or something and use that. Once I've done that I can go into citibank and cancel that card.

BOb

Not jumping on your post, Bob, just jumping in. Of course, ALL of this can be avoided if you avoid DRM. I know it doesn't really need to be said, but the fact that people are going through all this is ridiculous. It's not anybodies fault, I blame Sony.

Not jumping on your post, Bob, just jumping in. Of course, ALL of this can be avoided if you avoid DRM. I know it doesn't really need to be said, but the fact that people are going through all this is ridiculous. It's not anybodies fault, I blame Sony.

What you say is true of course. But doesn't solve the problem. There is a different between ideal and reality. We have to be pragmatic about these things. The solution to selling your Sony including the ebooks in your account is NOT don't buy any eBooks from Sony in the first place.

But, I do try to avoid DRM if I can, if not at least avoid types I can work around or remove.

BOb

I don't think you can really blame Sony for the DRM fiasco...the publishers won't sell their books without DRM, and Sony wouldn't sell nearly as many readers without someway for owners to purchase the more popular current releases.

dordale :)

I don't think you can really blame Sony for the DRM fiasco...the publishers won't sell their books without DRM, and Sony wouldn't sell nearly as many readers without someway for owners to purchase the more popular current releases.

dordale :)

Yes I agree, but it's a chicken and egg problem that DRM makes worst. I haven't brought a book from Sony, so I'm guessing here that you can't just download the LRx and leave it on the sony after you deactivate the account that the sony is linked to?

In that case, my solution is to convert the LRx (if there is a way, I'll find one if there is a need) to a nice non-DRM format and sell it that way.

If it's not in the EULA or whatever, ignore it. Click though licenses are not valid, and I think there is court precedent on that.


The authors and the publishers and SONY unfortunately don't realize that DRM only hurts the customers, nobody else. I realize that they need to sell books to put books on the market (legitimately) but playing the game by their rules causes disproportionate trouble. I don't know what the solution is.

Anyway, that's my input, covert the LRX or LRF (I did lowercase x to include both) to txt or rtf or something. If that's troublesome, I'll get right on figuring out how.