I just received my DR!

I don't know if this has already been posted.

Here is an official statement from karel indicating plans (http://forum.irexnet.com/viewtopic.php?t=2962&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) for DR power management implementation:

During my absence there have been a few topics in regard to the battery life. In order to maintain an overview, I have locked all these topics and redirected the discussion to this new thread, where I would like to start with giving a bit more insight in the power consumption and battery life of the iRex Digital Reader 1000.

In the current software version 1.0, we have only implemented very limited power management. While the iRex Digital Reader has a hardware architecture that is capable of utilizing a number of advanced power management functionalities including a suspend-to-RAM (standby mode) and suspend-to-Flash (hibernate mode). Once these are implemented the battery life will effectively be several days.

Although the following data is not 100% correct, it should give you a good view on what to expect of the battery life, so please do not pin me down on this data.

The iRex Digital Reader has a battery of 1300 mA (milliampere) and with software version 1.0 the reader consume about 150 mA per hour, resulting in about 8 hours of battery life. With suspend-to-RAM or standby mode, which we will introduce in a next software update, the reader will go into standby mode after x seconds. While in standby mode the power consumption will scale back to less than 50 mA. Good for about 24 hours of standby time. :rofl:

In addition to the standby mode we will also be looking to introduce a sleep mode or suspend-to-Flash. This means that if the reader is not being used for x minutes it will go into sleep mode. While in sleep mode the power consumption is reduced to about 1 mA. To 'wake up' the reader from hibernate takes about 10 seconds.

In the coming days we will come back to you with more information about our software road map and what software updates you can expect to see in the future.

IMO this indicates something is seriously wrong (again) with their hardware.

Now they are talking about 24h of standby. Not that this figure is not for continuous use. I would expect 12 hours. I don't like that. :smack:

Then in March 09 iRex will obviously launch a revision with a larger battery.

Ah don't you love iRex...

In the current software version 1.0, we have only implemented very limited power management.

Any portable device that doesn't have power management cannot be version 1.0; it isn't done yet. At most it can be version 0.9.

Well, that means we may have a DR1000 2nd edition just like iLiad.

I find it curious that in standby mode (suspend to memory) it still uses 50 mA compared to 150 mA while operational. That sounds high. It implies using only 66% less power in standby!!!! I wonde how much power is needed for memory alone?

Looking back at Cybook measurements:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25555&page=2

Power input of the processor, sleeping mode: 0.04 W 87 hours for fully loaded battery
Power input of the processor, running mode: 0.53 W 7 hours for fully loaded battery

The "sleeping mode" is same as standby (as all the state is in memory) so should be equivalent to DR1000 standby. Note power consumption is more than 10x lower!!!!

Assuming 3.7V, Cybook draws 0.53 / 3.7 = 143 mA while active (comparable to DR), but only 0.04 / 3.7 = 11 mA while sleeping!!!!!

They will either have to fix standby mode power use or add another 1300 mAh battery. Otherwise DR users will have to recharge anywhere from every day to at least once per week, even AFTER the power mgmt modes are implemented!

I find it curious that in standby mode (suspend to memory) it still uses 50 mA compared to 150 mA while operational. That sounds high. It implies using only 66% less power in standby!!!! I wonde how much power is needed for memory alone?

Exactly!. The CPU consumes waay too much power even in standby.
That's why I posted this, because I can't belive iRex is presenting this numbers as a solution. It's unacceptable.

This was the one thing they had to get right after the humiliation of having to lauch a battery replacemt program for the original iLiad.

Funny, when I placed my order I convinced myself by thinking that no matter how bad battery life was, it would always be better than the iLiad, but it seems I underestimeted iRex. :smack:

BKeeper,
I posted in the other thread:

Now according to these numbers, "light reading" used up internal battery after 5 hours. Of course, since battery is never depleted fully, I will guess/estimate about 1000 mAh (to be conswervative meaning 300 mAh still left).
1000 mAh / 5 hrs = 200 mA

However, Karel in the other thread stated:
"with software version 1.0 the reader consume about 150 mA per hour"

So once again they seem to be underestimating true power use. Seems like a pattern of overestimating device capabilities.

I suppose battery could be defective or not fully broken in, but highly unlikely. A more likely explanation is that the current software version is still not optimized for power use and subsequent versions might clean up these rough edges.

However, I wouldn't be too quick to give up on DR!!! As the other thread points out, you can have some AAs recharge DR and extend runtime a great deal when away from a PC. I think the entire battery/runtime issue needs to be measured against the benefits (like PDF handling which is far superior to my Cybook). Perhaps its features are more important than the short runtime.

USB power packs using AAs should increase DR runtime many times, depending on how many AAs you are willing to carry. So there is a reasonably painless option (no hardware mods needed) to fixing it.

On the other hand Cybook now has zoom and scrolling for PDFs to address A4 PDF issue. However, it is still very clumsy (hard to scroll) and it still cannot handle large/complex docs that DR seems to be able to handle.

Anyway, I guess iRex (mis)information doesn't help their image, so I understand your frustration.

All the reports we have seen indicate that the following is a wildly off the mark:
The iRex Digital Reader has a battery of 1300 mA (milliampere) and with software version 1.0 the reader consume about 150 mA per hour, resulting in about 8 hours of battery life. The DR doing nothing at all lasts about 5.5 hours or about 235 mA per hour. We know this isn't due to a faulty battery, because allovertheglobe got entirely consistent power drain from an external battery pack, see Power on the go - one practical solution (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30632). Perhaps karel is talking about the, unreleased, DR1000. Does anyone know how much power turning off Wacom saves?

I can't wait to see what adding wifi and Bluetooth to the mix will do. What should we expect then, a normal runtime of 2hrs!?

LOL
Forgot WiFi/Bluetooth
Ouch, not sure how they'll explain very short runtime when wireless is enabled?!??!

From reading iRex's "official" statement from marketing (we know how reliable those are) I feel they made a few basic mistakes.

1. The battery they use for the device is much to small. They should have used something twice as big. (Or at least make it user swappable so you could put in a second battery rather than waiting for a charge.) They should have planned for battery size for at least 12hrs of continous non-standby use. Would this have made the device heavier.. sure but a 1/2 pound or so... but ask most if they would like .5lb less or more battery life?

2. They are running the CPU at full speed. I doubt the reader needs the CPU to be at full speed most of the time. Step down the CPU voltage unless the reader is doing something really important like initial open/index of a book. They can run at full speed if the thing has external power. Perhaps the CPU they use doesn't support this?

3. Shipping the device before the battery management features were done. I know shipping is a feature... but it is much harder to fix a bad reputation than loose a few months of sales. The few months will end, the bad rep will go on for a long time.

BOb

LOL
Forgot WiFi/Bluetooth
Ouch, not sure how they'll explain very short runtime when wireless is enabled?!??!

The way the iLiad works is that Wifi is only enabled when you're connecting to the network to download something. It is disabled the majority of the time.

Edit: I assume the DR will be similar.

2. They are running the CPU at full speed. I doubt the reader needs the CPU to be at full speed most of the time. Step down the CPU voltage unless the reader is doing something really important like initial open/index of a book. They can run at full speed if the thing has external power. Perhaps the CPU they use doesn't support this?


They mentioned on their forum that the CPU they are using is already very efficient, and they did not see a significant difference when they throttled it down. I think they did mention that they were still planning on throttling in a future update since any little bit helps, but that it wasn't a dramatic difference like it was on the iLiad.

IMHO this battery issues is a sign Irex is going down the drain. I really liked the open platform devices they provided, but with managing decission like this, to bring out devices unfinished like this.... If they don't get straight fast, I personally would not see a bright future...

I thought there was meant to be a browser on the Reader as well, which would probably mean continuous WiFi.

The way the iLiad works is that Wifi is only enabled when you're connecting to the network to download something. It is disabled the majority of the time.

Edit: I assume the DR will be similar.

However, I wouldn't be too quick to give up on DR!!! As the other thread points out, you can have some AAs recharge DR and extend runtime a great deal when away from a PC. I think the entire battery/runtime issue needs to be measured against the benefits (like PDF handling which is far superior to my Cybook). Perhaps its features are more important than the short runtime.

I'm certainly not giving on the DR just yet. I bought it to read A4 and it's great for that.

But iRex cannot make the same mistakes all over again, and they have.
Wanna hear something really scary, I have it on good authority that iRex is explicitly using the term beta firmware with their retail chain.

Do you realize the significance of this?
This makes us beta testers, which I'm not, beta testers don't pay for product testing, they get the product for free (maybe with a deposit) and sign NDAs.

They simply cannot do that. (again)
The first time they were protected because most of the customers signed a release. But this time I haven't and this is false advertisement.
No need to lie. They could have said look here is our reader we expect 12h of battery life. and with that info it was up to me to decide if it was worth €600. But by inflating perceived value they are effectively stealing from me.

Again, I got my DR because I thought that given iRex's history they simply could not afford to get power management wrong, again, to lie to their customers (again),

I thought they'd rather ship the DR with a car battery if they had to.

Now it looks like we are the ones getting external batteries (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30632) anyway.

I'm not giving them a free pass this time, either they fix it. or give partial refund, or I will notify EU's consumer protection authorities.

I'm not saying I don't like my DR, I'm just saying that iRex simply cannot do this. They should have launched DR in December.They have rushed the product and they shouldn't have.

Why didn't iRex put in a high capacity battery with room for a second if the user wanted?

Because they are incompetent? (Do you have a better explanation?)

Because they are incompetent? (Do you have a better explanation?)

Yes, because the bean counters wanted to keep the cost down. However, it will probably cost them more in the long run.

BOb

I think they used a small battery (half of what the iLiad has with almost twice the screensize) since they redesigned the hardware and it is theoretically possible to get the device to run for days with the implemented power management. Whoever decided to launch the product with the current firmware and battery runtime is responsible for the reputational damage iRex is taking now. And belive me, i am pretty angry at the moment.

Any portable device that doesn't have power management cannot be version 1.0; it isn't done yet. At most it can be version 0.9.

This just shows that iRex, deliberately, launched an unfinished product. People are paying 600€ to be beta testers. That unethical.

This just shows that iRex, deliberately, launched an unfinished product. People are paying 600€ to be beta testers. That unethical.

I don't know if it is unethical at all. Especially since they said upfront that the power management features were not included. Also, shipping something without some future planned features does not make it a beta test version.

You should have bought it knowing full well that this would be an issue.

BOb

Especially since they said upfront that the power management features were not included.

Are you sure? I seem to recall that the product page did not say that until after the orders started shipping. I could be wrong.

Are you sure? I seem to recall that the product page did not say that until after the orders started shipping. I could be wrong.

I thought the said it before orders started shipping. Maybe not on the product page which was a mistake. However, you generally don't list the bad things about your product on product literature.

BOb

You should do so when you ship a product that is still in beta.

You should do so when you ship a product that is still in beta.

Who said the product was beta? If iRex did officially say the the 1.0 firmware was considered a "beta" release that was yet another mistake on their part. I don't think those guys are very good at this. Still, unethical, I don't think so.

BOb

Wait. I want to change my previous statement.

I had implied that the device was still in beta because it lacked the power management software. I was wrong.

If the PM didn't work well, the device would be in beta. Since the PM is entirely absent, the DR1000 is still in alpha.

...
But iRex cannot make the same mistakes all over again, and they have.
Wanna hear something really scary, I have it on good authority that iRex is explicitly using the term beta firmware with their retail chain.

Do you realize the significance of this?
This makes us beta testers, which I'm not, beta testers don't pay for product testing, they get the product for free (maybe with a deposit) and sign NDAs.

I am a programmer and write software for living. There are some exceptions like:
1) Google having a product in beta for a very long time
2) Microsoft running beta for Windows and other important products for a long time and with *MANY* customers

However in general beta is 99.99% identical to the final product and doesn't last very long. Certainly that is case for smaller companies with less money. As for giving betas for free, I imagine that is exception more than a rule.

The point is, once you are in beta there are no significant changes going into a product besides bug fixes. My software is not even in beta yet (another couple of months) and I already need a permission for any bug fix requiring more than a couple of days to fix. Certainly no new features are being done.

So beta is basically the final product and the dividing line is very thin. In essence some marketing or product manager wakes up one morning and declares that the beta is over and the product is final. It is more or less arbitrary.


....I thought they'd rather ship the DR with a car battery if they had to.

Now it looks like we are the ones getting external batteries (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30632) anyway.

....

This is also my frustration. Not only are they using custom battery (as opposed to more common AAs) but also it is not easy to replace. Bookeen at least gave a simple cover and a single screw so that I can replace my battery when this one is too old.

I think companies end up sacrificing *TOO MUCH* for the sake of size/weight. They use a light compact battery with a flat shape so that it fits well into overall case design, yet end up causing is so much trouble long term.

This is a pure speculation:
I assume that the mass produced battery they use is not designed for frequent change so has a delicate connector. That means that even if they allowed easy removal we would risk damaging the delicate cables and connectors these batteries are built with.

That being said, why not use a battery like mobile phones with fixed connectors? Then when needed I could carry 1 or 2 spares and use them when away from a PC for a longer period of time. It is sad that the same mistake is being made by mobile phones, like iPhone (one of the main complaints).

Bottom line is if they wish to keep the slim design then:
a) allow easy replacement and sell spares
b) add 2nd 1300 mAh battery for 2x runtime

I prefer (a) as often DR is used in office or some place near a PC and can be plugged in most of the time. Anyway I am too frustrated that companies keep making such simple mistakes and neglect power source and runtime. Still their marketing keeps making inflated claims about runtime. This is industry wide problem, though.

bob_ninja

Altough it got massivly forgotten even by many companies, a long time ago, the definition of beta version was "limited user group", that is, alpha was "in house testing onyl", "beta testing with limted user group" and then general sale to market. Somewhere on the way many reinterpreted beta as "just not quite ready yet"... I personally a little mournful this original and crystal clear destinction got so forgotten by almost everyone today. One can argue about this point of limited user group, as its even unusual today. But one can argue is that when you deliberatly hand out bad or not yet ready software without warning, you are doing something wrong. And iRex is currently doing this wrong with the 1000.

About the battery thing I totally agree. I consider it a very bad move from a lot of industry to make devices with unexchangeable batteries. Its our whole economy today, we do no longer build things to last, companies just want the devices to fall apart after 2-4 years, so people buy new, altough they wouldn't really need to.

Why didn't iRex put in a high capacity battery with room for a second if the user wanted?

Just about all makers of pocket devices like eReaders and mobile phones place high priority on size and being slim. If you look at the all eReader batteries, they are very slim Lithium based batteries chosen because they can be packaged into a device without adding much depth.

Discordantly if were to add 2nd battery it would be sticking out of the case adding an odd bump. You might consider it ugly or inconvenient, etc. They are simply set in the old thinking, design and elegance over runtime.

Thus they need to realized that at some point runtime becomes more important than appearance/dimensions/weight. They crossed that threshold without realizing it.

bob_ninja

Altough it got massivly forgotten even by many companies, a long time ago, the definition of beta version was "limited user group", that is, alpha was "in house testing onyl", "beta testing with limted user group" and then general sale to market......

Certainly the definitions if they ever existed of alpha, beta and GA are now fuzzy. In particular Google's so called "beta" of Google mail doesn't even come close to your definition. Other companies also stray away. Not to mention prototype software that never goes into alpha or beta, but simply starts being used and becomes a finished product over night.

My original point was simply for people not to worry too much about labels like "beta" or "finished product" as the difference is often negligible.

The bigger issue is shipping GA product that is missing a significant feature - power management. That is why most/many users simply don't purchase V1, which is what I am doing - wait and see.

To be fair, remember Windows 1.0? How many people used it or complained about its deficiencies? It took Microsoft several versions and years to get to V3.1 and actually make it widely used. And this is from one of the major software companies!!!

I would cut some slack here and simply give them time. As for people who bought DR v1.0 .... not sure what to say. I would be angry as well.

Certainly the definitions if they ever existed of alpha, beta and GA are now fuzzy. In particular Google's so called "beta" of Google mail doesn't even come close to your definition. Other companies also stray away. Not to mention prototype software that never goes into alpha or beta, but simply starts being used and becomes a finished product over night.


Well gmail was actually really beta, remember when you only got into it by invitation? that was beta. A closed user group. However for free services, putting on the beta tag is IMHO just a lame "imunisation technique" that became very popular. If anybody complains that something doesn't work, they just reply "look this beta, see it? so shut up".. I can count up several public (advertisment driven) things that never even plan to get out of beta, because that beta tag has proofen to be so hany to shut up complains.


The bigger issue is shipping GA product that is missing a significant feature - power management. That is why most/many users simply don't purchase V1, which is what I am doing - wait and see.

Exactly regardless how we define beta or non beta. Redoing the iLiad error is IMHO just stupid. I mean one can forgive about the iLiad, the company was new, was over enthusiastic, they made promises they never even came close to fullfill, they shipped a """"beta"""" (under all quotes) device, because they wanted userfeedback for a device they planned to actually sell over partners not themselves. But not in the next generation they just make the same stupid errors again. So tell about having an organisation that is unable to learn.

To be fair, remember Windows 1.0? How many people used it or complained about its deficiencies? It took Microsoft several versions and years to get to V3.1 and actually make it widely used. And this is from one of the major software companies!!!

No, I don't remember Windows 1.0. I'm not so young, but windows 1.0 was before my time, if it was even used by anyone outside of the more narrow microsoft circle. As far I recall, windows 2.0 was the first one really getting any noteworthy attention at all. When I got my first PC (386) Windows 3.0 was on the market, and just going to be replaced by 3.1 and 3.11. Also note that microsoft was not a major software company back then (IBM was) and also I don't consider the microsoft model of making software and business copyworthy. (Software just make it look cool, altough buggy. Business: make partnerships, slurp out all technology, betray partnership) Unfortunally it was pretty sucessfull in our economic world, I really don't thing anyone ethical should make this his role model.

I would cut some slack here and simply give them time. As for people who bought DR v1.0 .... not sure what to say. I would be angry as well.

Indeed, I so want iRex to be a cool company. But this is just yet another major oops. I hope they survive, I hope they can change their organisation in a way they start to be able to learn.But currently I wouldn't be surprised after all, that you cannot hold a business in this way this too long

there doing it for three years ....so somewhere there doing it right

I thought there was meant to be a browser on the Reader as well, which would probably mean continuous WiFi.

True. I'm guessing the Wifi will be enabled as long as you have the browser open. Exactly how they'll handle it though, is still a question. We won't know for sure until the DR1000SW comes out.

I thought the said it before orders started shipping. Maybe not on the product page which was a mistake. However, you generally don't list the bad things about your product on product literature.

BOb

The first I remember seeing it was in their DR1000 FAQ, which was posted a day or two after the initial product announcement.

The first I remember seeing it was in their DR1000 FAQ, which was posted a day or two after the initial product announcement.

I'm pretty sure that was before they started shipping.

BOb

Who said the product was beta?

Complaining users. I've never seen iRex call it a beta.

Wait. I want to change my previous statement.

I had implied that the device was still in beta because it lacked the power management software. I was wrong.

If the PM didn't work well, the device would be in beta. Since the PM is entirely absent, the DR1000 is still in alpha.

Who is defining "beta" and "alpha" and what features are required for each stage? Is there some formal standard that says mobile devices that lack PM are considered "alpha", or is that just your definition?

This is a pure speculation:
I assume that the mass produced battery they use is not designed for frequent change so has a delicate connector. That means that even if they allowed easy removal we would risk damaging the delicate cables and connectors these batteries are built with.


If it's similar to the iLiad, then the batteries are soldered to a circuit board.


That being said, why not use a battery like mobile phones with fixed connectors? Then when needed I could carry 1 or 2 spares and use them when away from a PC for a longer period of time. It is sad that the same mistake is being made by mobile phones, like iPhone (one of the main complaints).


I definitely agree here. I don't know why they didn't make it a replaceable battery. That's one of my biggest complaints.

Calling it "alpha" or "beta" would imply that they plan to improve the product by fixing bugs. Basic functionality is incomplete, and their track record for being able to keep commitments once the product starts shipping is poor. :(

Who is defining "beta" and "alpha" and what features are required for each stage? Is there some formal standard that says mobile devices that lack PM are considered "alpha", or is that just your definition?

I was basing my remark on a Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_tester)article.

The software release life cycle is composed of different stages that describe the stability of a piece of software and the amount of development it requires before final release. Each major version of a product usually goes through a stage when new features are added, or the alpha stage; a stage when it is being actively debugged, or the beta stage; and finally a stage when all important bugs have been removed, or the stable stage.

BTW, do you remember the discussion of Eink vs LCD screens about a month back? One of the points I was trying to make was about the supposed benefit of lower energy use of Eink. I tried to say that if you attach the Eink screen to a power hungry CPU, you won't see a difference in battery life between one screen type and the other. I'm rather pleased that Irex proved my point for me.

I was basing my remark on a Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_tester)article.

You seem to be reading more into the Wikipedia article than is intended. Releasing the product before power management is done has nothing to do with whether the software is "alpha', "beta" or "stable".

BTW, do you remember the discussion of Eink vs LCD screens about a month back? One of the points I was trying to make was about the supposed benefit of lower energy use of Eink. I tried to say that if you attach the Eink screen to a power hungry CPU, you won't see a difference in battery life between one screen type and the other. I'm rather pleased that Irex proved my point for me.

I agree with you there. Eink uses a lot less power than LCD does, but you're right, it's not the only thing you need to take into consideration when it comes to power consumption. Some people have made the mistake of thinking that just because it's Eink it should not use any power at all in between refreshes. They're completely missing that there's a lot more hardware in a device than just the screen.

BTW, do you remember the discussion of Eink vs LCD screens about a month back? One of the points I was trying to make was about the supposed benefit of lower energy use of Eink. I tried to say that if you attach the Eink screen to a power hungry CPU, you won't see a difference in battery life between one screen type and the other. I'm rather pleased that Irex proved my point for me.

A 1300mAh battery would probably have only powered a machine with an LCD screen for half an hour. The battery life may be short, but it would undoubtedly have been a lot shorter still with an LCD screen.

Nobody ever said that no device with an eInk screen is ever going to have a short battery life; merely that eInk screens use less power than LCD screens. That statement remains true.

You may be technically right, but it makes sense to me that when touting something with low power profile it is plainly implied that battery life will be extended compared to other products. I think that is quite obvious with marketing of eink devices touting "days" worth of battery life.



Nobody ever said that no device with an eInk screen is ever going to have a short battery life; merely that eInk screens use less power than LCD screens. That statement remains true.

You may be technically right, but it makes sense to me that when touting something with low power profile it is plainly implied that battery life will be extended compared to other products. I think that is quite obvious with marketing of eink devices touting "days" worth of battery life.

What other products are you comparing it to? Even an EInk device that hasn't implemented power management yet still gets better battery life than a laptop or tablet PC.

I was comparing eink reading devices to other electronic reading devices from dedicated LCD type to PCs to phones/PDAs. Your second statement seems to agree with what I was saying.

What other products are you comparing it to? Even an EInk device that hasn't implemented power management yet still gets better battery life than a laptop or tablet PC.

This issue is that iRex added a lot more power draining functionality to the DR and then put in a wimpy battery. They could have put in a higher capacity battery and if they wanted to keep costs down, made a slot for a second battery that would be an option for the user. That way the user can pay to add in another high capacity battery. This makes a lot more sense then what they did. What they did was give a battery that was underpowered (overall) and then not have proper power management from day one. There is no justification for this. It's a mistake that will cost them big time.

I think the only mistake was releasing it before power management was ready. Assuming their estimates are correct (yeah, I know), the battery life should be pretty good once they get suspend and sleep completed.

There is no justification for this. It's a mistake that will cost them big time.

Perhaps. But, batteries get better too. Maybe the figure in a year the same battery size/format will be available at a larger capacity. I know that when I replaced my iPod and Phone batteries the capacity was larger in the same format size. THey are thinking long term here.

BOb

Maybe the figure in a year the same battery size/format will be available at a larger capacity. I would not be surprised if they are using the identical battery to that in the iLiad (which has two cells, vs one in the DR). If so, this is already year old technology. Similar sized batteries rated for 1800-2000 mAh are readily available, and 2800 mAh is possible (iLiad Battery Hacks: Part 2 (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30794)).

A 1300mAh battery would probably have only powered a machine with an LCD screen for half an hour. The battery life may be short, but it would undoubtedly have been a lot shorter still with an LCD screen.

Nobody ever said that no device with an eInk screen is ever going to have a short battery life; merely that eInk screens use less power than LCD screens. That statement remains true.

Yes and no. That fact about the screens is true, Harry, but it is usually bandied about as a selling point for devices with Eink screens. It is usually said that you choose a device with an Eink screen so you will have a longer battery life. This is when it becomes not true. It has become marketing hype.

I think the difference in our views is because you are talking about Eink screens, and I am talking about _devices_ with Eink screens. We're not quite talking about the same thing.

BTW, I have two devices with a similar sized battery to the DR1000S and longer battery life. One is the NEC MobilePro 880. It's a laptop with a 9.4" touchscreen. I'm getting about 8 hours battery life from a 1.4Ah battery. And my PenCentra 130 with an 8" touchscreen used to get about 5 hours from a 1.3Ah battery.

Yes and no. That fact about the screens is true, Harry, but it is usually bandied about as a selling point for devices with Eink screens. It is usually said that you choose a device with an Eink screen so you will have a longer battery life. This is when it becomes not true. It has become marketing hype.

It's true if you're comparing apples to apples. If you have two devices which are otherwise identical, then the one with the EInk screen will last longer than the one with the LCD screen. That's what the selling point is talking about.

Usually though when comparing random device A with random device B, there is a lot more going on that effects the battery life than just the screen.

But from a consumer's point of view, "apples" are devices with similar cost, functionality, and perhaps size/weight, completely regardless of technology or the current state of firmware such as power management software. And what I'm hearing people say is that there are tablets, possibly for comparable price, but in any case similar size and weight, that do more for longer on a single charge than the DR1000. I think most business users (the market iRex seems to be targeting) will not care that the DR1000 uses e ink, unless it grants them a clear advantage, such as extended battery life.

Here is my question along with a (potential) comment.
Yesterday, I was playing with the device just to see what it would be like when the battery is completely drained.
Just when it was about to shut down, I did a reboot, watched it boot, and just a second after the main screen appeared, I pressed the reset button.
The device froze. It stopped responding to reset button at the bottom, anyting else. I waited to see it shut down, but it did not. After about 30 mins, I was quite curious. There was no way enough battery that'd last for 30 secs, and after one more press to reset, the red led on the top also turned down.
Until I found a laptop around about 5 mins later, the screen stayed exactly the same. I do not know anything about e-ink, other than it looks amazing :)
Does this mean that once you display an image on screen, you can completely cut the power, and it will stay as it is? If this is the case, a standby during page displays can really change the battery life story at a remarkable level. About 4-5 hours with full cpu usage can go up to 8-10 I guess. Of course all of this is pure speculation, without proper information, which I hope to get as responses to this message :)

Kind regards
Seref

Does this mean that once you display an image on screen, you can completely cut the power, and it will stay as it is?

Yes, that is why eInk is so power efficient. Power is only needed to display something on the page. Once it is there is will persist "forever" without any need to power or refresh it as you need to do with CRT and LCD and PLASMA and OLED, etc.

BOb

Does this mean that once you display an image on screen, you can completely cut the power, and it will stay as it is?


That's exactly what it means.

If this is the case, a standby during page displays can really change the battery life story at a remarkable level. About 4-5 hours with full cpu usage can go up to 8-10 I guess. Of course all of this is pure speculation, without proper information, which I hope to get as responses to this message :)


Yes. That's why they're saying that it will only last up to 8 hours in full cpu mode, but once they implement standby it'll last up to 24 hours.

But from a consumer's point of view, "apples" are devices with similar cost, functionality, and perhaps size/weight, completely regardless of technology or the current state of firmware such as power management software.


Except that it's the technology and power management that defines the battery life. Cost, functionality, size/weight have nothing to do with battery life.

And what I'm hearing people say is that there are tablets, possibly for comparable price, but in any case similar size and weight, that do more for longer on a single charge than the DR1000.

Likely because the tablet is using power management, which doesn't exist on the DR1000 yet. As I said, there is a lot more going on with the battery life story than just the screen. However, saying that eInk uses a lot less power than LCD is absolutely correct. Saying that a device with an eInk screen will have better battery life than the exact same device with an LCD screen is absolutely correct. Saying that a DR1000 doesn't last as long as your cell phone is meaningless with regards to the benefits of eInk.

And what I'm hearing people say is that there are tablets, possibly for comparable price, but in any case similar size and weight, that do more for longer on a single charge than the DR1000 The tablets are more capable, but they are also heavier and have much larger batteries. For example, the Gigabyte M912M (http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/09/gigabyte-m912m-less-is-more) is a Windows XP convertable tablet with a 8.9" screen but it weighs 1350g (vs 570g) and its "small" battery has a capacity of 32 W/hr (vs 4.8 W/hr) and only lasts ~3 hours (vs ~5 hrs).

There really isn't anything like the DR1000S out there now, but that would be even more true if iRex put a 2x capacity battery in the device. Many laptop/tablet vendors are now offering 2x larger batteries as options. Laptops are so power hungry that this gives a major hit in weight and device thickness. In the case of the DR1000S is would be a minor hit in these areas for a major advance in per charge life.

There really isn't anything like the DR1000S out there now, but that would be even more true if iRex put a 2x capacity battery in the device. Many laptop/tablet vendors are now offering 2x larger batteries as options. Laptops are so power hungry that this gives a major hit in weight and device thickness. In the case of the DR1000S is would be a minor hit in these areas for a major advance in per charge life.

Glue together two sony prs700.
Total weight 570g, resolution 800x1200, 170dpi, touchscreen,
total price 620 euro

Battery will last for 2 weeks

For DR 1000, use two PRS 505,
for a price of 465 euro.

cons: annoying black bar at center of screen, have to hit 2 buttons to turn page

;)

There really isn't anything like the DR1000S out there now, but that would be even more true if iRex put a 2x capacity battery in the device. Many laptop/tablet vendors are now offering 2x larger batteries as options. Laptops are so power hungry that this gives a major hit in weight and device thickness. In the case of the DR1000S is would be a minor hit in these areas for a major advance in per charge life.

An interesting point that I saw mentioned elsewhere is that since the DR1000 is recharged via USB now, rather than from a power adapter, it can only charge with 500mA. Perhaps the decision to only put a single battery in the DR1000 is because the time it would take to charge a 2X battery via a USB connection would be really long.

I wonder if the decision to have half the battery capacity of the iLiad was a tradeoff for making it rechargable via USB, and they were hoping to make up the difference with the future power management functionality?

I wonder if the decision to have half the battery capacity of the iLiad was a tradeoff for making it rechargable via USB, and they were hoping to make up the difference with the future power management functionality?

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Gogolo

These comparisons are far too simplistic. It should be noted that even when considering a single device, such as a standard PC computer, power usage can vary a great deal between different software applications. Right now I am typing a message in a browser, so CPU, disk, etc. most components are not busy, hardly doing anything at all. Right now my LCD screen uses the most power. When I start a new build or any other CPU intensive processing then suddenly CPU could be drawing more than the screen. When you play an action game then between your CPU, GPU and disk they will draw far more power than LCD display!!!!

That means having a lower power display may sometimes provide a much longer runtime (when display uses most power) and other times may not (when other components use more power).

Now we come back to eReader vs mobile phones (tables and UMPCs are still limited to perhaps 5 hours, so not much better than regular laptops). You are comparing DR rendering PDF documents against a mobile phone rendering plain text. In general mobile phones run simple small apps, nothing even close compared to the complexity of rendering PDFs. In fact, you should understand that PDF rendering is far from trivial. Therefore, DR CPU is using far more power on average while rendering PDF docs compared to mobile phones doing very simple rendering of icons and simple text. DR is doing far more work. So clearly when DR is tasked with heavy duty computations such as PDF rendering then despite a low power screen it still needs power for CPU.

The point is, compare runtime between DR and mobile phones doing the same work, rendering PDF docs!!!! Then let's see how their runtimes compare.

Even comparing DR and Cybook is not fair. Cybook crashes for any non-trivial PDF. So it has a smaller CPU using less power, *BUT* cannot handle compex context and is much slower rendering content than DR.

I think DR is getting too much flak for this battery issue. I think iRex for the most part made all the right choices. DR needs a more powerful CPU to handle more complex PDF content, despite using more power. It is unfortunate they slipped on battery and power mgmt. Either power mgmt is mandatory and in V1 or they offer options for battery (2x builtin, 1 options, whatever) They clearly understimated this area.

But hey, most manufacturers make the exact same mistake. Most laptops have small batteries. They cannot handle the load and end up lasting only couple of years, then capacity degrades rapidly.

I read the "USB only delivers 500mAh and so a larger battery would take too long to charge" excuse for the weak 1300mAh battery a few times now. I think it is pretty lame. And I hope for iRex that it was not their way of thinking when they opted for the 1300mAh.

To charge a larger battery that far that it can deliver the run time to the DR that it gets with the current 1300mAh battery would take exactly the same time. Sure it would take longer to have it charged 100%, but you can also see charging the device on the PCs USB port as optional since USB cables and ports are everywhere. When you are at home and you want to prepare the device for a long absence from power sources, you can still use a charger with 1,5 A or more on the DR.

I for once use a 3000mAh battery on my phone which charges via an USB plug and "it takes to long to have it 100% charged" never was an issue.

Even comparing DR and Cybook is not fair. Cybook crashes for any non-trivial PDF. So it has a smaller CPU using less power, *BUT* cannot handle compex context and is much slower rendering content than DR.
.
Sorry, I'm going a bit :offtopic:....
When a CPU is more or less powerful, it just means it can do tasks faster or slower. Once a CPU reaches a certain level of complexity in computation, it can do any computation - that is what is called a Universal Turing Machine :bookworm:. Once it reaches that it is only a matter of time and memory. All CPUs we encounter have that complexity. The cybook crashing on complex pdfs just means buggy software, or maybe buggy hardware :smack:.

Let us say that all the software bugs are resolved and Cybook software can handle full PDF feature set. However, say a certain page takes 20 seconds to render on Cybook. Most would compare an eReader to a printed PDF or using PDF on PCs. Thus clearly you would consider Cybook's PDF handling to be deficient even if it didn't crash.

I am not familiar with the details, but I read here how Sony and DR seems to be doing some sort of combination of pre-processing and/or results caching to speed up display of complex pages. Could be wrong.

The point is simply that DR has both more powerful CPU and seems to have a more advanced rendering engine for PDFs. Clearly far more effort was invested by iRex into PDF handling for DR as compared to Cybook. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Cybook still works well and is a great value for the price.

Simply some comparisons don't make sense. That is all.