Question for you iPod Touch users:

What book formats can you currently read on the iPod? And what reading software? I know Stanza can read epub, but what beyond that? eReader? Is it possible to read Mobipocket?

My wife's interested in getting one primarily as a PDA, but ebooks would be a factor, too.

Thanks.

MobiPocket has said that they will have a reader for the iPhone by the end of the year.

There is a good review of Stanza and eReader on the iPod Touch by Ficbot on teleread (http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/10/03/more-on-e-reading-on-the-ipod-touch/).

eReader has a free reader for the touch/iphone that works very well and allows you to download books directly from your ereader.com online library. Non-DRM Mobipocket files are supported in the application "bookshelf"-- nothing you buy from mobipocket is readable yet but supposedly they are working on their own reader software.

So if you have a library of non-DRM Mobi books on your computer, you can read them, but you can't upload them directly from your computer? It sounded in that review as if you have to upload them to a server, and then download them onto the ipod. Can that be right? I was assuming you could connect via USB to your computer and put anything you want on it.

Also there was a reference to stripping out bold and italic formatting that rang a bell. Is it eReader on the ipod that does that? What about Bookshelf, reading Mobi files? (I'm completely unfamiliar with Bookshelf.)

Jeffrey,
As far as I know, none of the standard ebook ereaders currently supports synching via USB. Stanza, does support wifi sharing. You might have to open a port on your router (depending on how it is locked down), but once it is configured, just enable sharing with the desktop version of Stanza, and then you can share books fairly easily between the iPod version of Stanza and the Desktop version.

Alas, eReader, essentially requires downloading the book via a web server; you can upload to ereader, then download, or you can place your books on a web site somewhere (like your home machine) and then download. Its a little clunky. On the plus side though, any ereader books you already purchased from fictionwise can be downloaded again for free.

--
Bill

My guess is eReader is the top format until Mobipocket is done.

Jeffrey,
As far as I know, none of the standard ebook ereaders currently supports synching via USB.

That's...weird. Since the Touch is basically an enhanced iPod (yes?), doesn't it connect to your computer to copy music files from iTunes? If it can do that, I don't see why it would be such a big step to copy ebook files, even just using Windows Explorer.

It does connect to the computer to copy music and video files, doesn't it?

The iPod Touch does not act like a mass storage device so you do need iTunes to move music off and on.

That's...weird. Since the Touch is basically an enhanced iPod (yes?), doesn't it connect to your computer to copy music files from iTunes? If it can do that, I don't see why it would be such a big step to copy ebook files, even just using Windows Explorer.

It does connect to the computer to copy music and video files, doesn't it?

I think the apps are sandboxed in the OS. They can only access their own personal data. So, you can't just copy an ebook file like you would an MP3 and have some application look at it.

I think Stanza allows your to load books from your PC. You need to install Stanza on your PC also... this runs a web server type service which you can then connect to from your Touch using Stanza.

eReader lets you download stuff from your eReader.com / fictionwise.com on line library. You can add personal ebooks to your library (that you obtained elsewhere) by uploading them from your PC.

As far as formats... of course eReader supports ereader format.

Stanza supports nonDRM Mobi and ePub on the Mac/PC version... I'm not sure what version it supports on the iPhone/Touch but I assume it can convert to a compatible format if the Stanza desktop version can read it.

BOb

That's...weird. Since the Touch is basically an enhanced iPod (yes?), doesn't it connect to your computer to copy music files from iTunes? If it can do that, I don't see why it would be such a big step to copy ebook files, even just using Windows Explorer.

It does connect to the computer to copy music and video files, doesn't it?

This is just a symptom of Apple's paranoia and inability to give up control. They could allow users to upload items directly to the device, but then there would be the possibility that you would load applications that weren't purchased directly from them. (The Horror!) Right now they have the ability to turn off all other bookstores and restrict you to their own bookstore. In any case, it isn't difficult to add books for eReader, Stanza, or Bookshelf.

eReader allows uploads directly to your online library or you can access your books through your local wi-fi network.

Bookshelf uses a java application on the bookshelf web site to load books directly from your computer.

Since there is a section completely devoted to iphone and iTouch devices I am moving this thread.

My guess is eReader is the top format until Mobipocket is done.

I am not sure that Mobipocket will take over even then... If it does, it will be because of Amazon's power to negotiate with publishers. If the numbers keep growing at the pace they are right now, I suspect that most people who want to read on their iphone will have downloaded eReader and Stanza by Christmas. It could make it very hard for Mobipocket to catch up. Certainly, I am not planning on using Mobipocket.. period.

--
Bill

I am not sure that Mobipocket will take over even then... If it does, it will be because of Amazon's power to negotiate with publishers. If the numbers keep growing at the pace they are right now, I suspect that most people who want to read on their iphone will have downloaded eReader and Stanza by Christmas. It could make it very hard for Mobipocket to catch up. Certainly, I am not planning on using Mobipocket.. period.


The problem is that Mobipocket often has more new releases than eReader. I have a large library of Mobipocket books from my Palm and Winmo days but can't do anything with them on the iPhone.

There is a huge thread in the mobipocket forums of people begging for an iphone app and nothing but silence from the mobipocket devs. One user left a message claiming that the delay was due to deal for Mobi to be the exclusive/official ebook provider for the iPhone. Nice rumor, I guess...

I am not sure Apple wants to risk the stink that would arise at this point if they turned off the 300,000+ Stanza readers and the 250,000+ eReader readers. I know they reserve the right to remove apps from people's devices, but if they were to do that, and then release Mobi... well, that would probably alienate quite a few customers (yours truly included.. I would dump my iPod Touch and replace it with a palm PDA tomorrow).

I think it would be even harder for them to justify with bookZ and bookshelf, both of which are not free (though not that pricey).

--
Bill

I am not sure Apple wants to risk the stink that would arise at this point if they turned off the 300,000+ Stanza readers and the 250,000+ eReader readers. I know they reserve the right to remove apps from people's devices, but if they were to do that, and then release Mobi... well, that would probably alienate quite a few customers (yours truly included.. I would dump my iPod Touch and replace it with a palm PDA tomorrow).

I think it would be even harder for them to justify with bookZ and bookshelf, both of which are not free (though not that pricey).



I imagine that if Apple saw a profitable market in selling ebooks they would just integrate the sales directly into iTunes. This would make it more convenient to load books onto the device and make their store more attractive than eReader or other competitors. Fairly quickly they would dominate the ebooks on iPhone market and their competitors would fade away.

Apple cares about what is good for Apple. Fortunately this often overlaps with what is perceived as good by their customers. I don't think it is likely to happen, but I guess that becoming a mobipocket storefront wouldn't necessarily be a bad deal for Apple. They would have a large library instantly and make money on the partnership without any of the work securing licenses, dealing with publishers, etc.

I prefer the eReader drm to the mobi drm. I don't want Apple authorizing or deauthorizing my 'devices' for me. I think eReader will still survive as an app because it is tied to the Fictionwise site, so they could say it is just like Facebook for iPhone or Google for iPhone. I already have Fictionwise content, and would want to kep being able to read it.

Flumbo,
If they did it that way, they might be successful, though frankly they would need to make it easy for people to import their current books into their iBooks library :). As it is, fictionwise makes it pretty easy to access any book you have bought from them in the past as long as you have a wifi connection (or I imagine a wireless signal if you are using the phone).

--
Bill

The problem is that Mobipocket often has more new releases than eReader. I have a large library of Mobipocket books from my Palm and Winmo days but can't do anything with them on the iPhone.



I forgot to address this earlier... I suppose it all depends on what you want to read. I went fictionwise and I found more Science Fiction Books that were readable under ereader (secure or multiformat) than I found on mobipocket's site. So I think for practical purposes, there is probably plenty to read for anyone.

--
Bill

I've had zero issues with getting all but drm-ed LRF and drm-ed epub onto the iPhone.

For content from fictionwise/ereader, just buy in the ereader format; they sync down to the iTouch/iPhone rather quickly.

If you have just about any non-DRMed format, you can open it on your computer using Stanza, open up stanza on the iPhone, and the computer version of stanza should be listed in the shared books section of the iPhone stanza. Transferring takes about 10-30 secs. Easy peasy.

If you have DRM-ed mobipocked, you just need to go though an additional step of removing the DRM; once you do that, it loads up in stanza just fine.

Just a minor nitpick, but isn't defeating copy protection, even if you have no intention of distributing the work to others a crime in the United States?

--
Bill

I forgot to address this earlier... I suppose it all depends on what you want to read. I went fictionwise and I found more Science Fiction Books that were readable under ereader (secure or multiformat) than I found on mobipocket's site. So I think for practical purposes, there is probably plenty to read for anyone.

--
Bill

Sci-Fi is also my time-waster of choice. I appreciate the big back catalog of sci-fi stories on fictionwise, but it seems like the new releases I'm looking for don't make it there. For instance, John Scalzi's latest book is available on Mobi but not eReader/Fictionwise. Most of Harry Turtledove's books make it to Mobi, but only a few are on eReader. John Varley's latest book is on Mobi(only one of his books!) but not eReader.

Of course there are many more that aren't available at either store like recent Larry Niven, Vernor Vinge or Robert Charles Wilson. I'm sure it goes both ways, but my luck finding what I want to buy lately has been poor.

If you have DRM-ed mobipocked, you just need to go though an additional step of removing the DRM; once you do that, it loads up in stanza just fine.

Just a minor nitpick, but isn't defeating copy protection, even if you have no intention of distributing the work to others a crime in the United States?


I'm with Bill-- I'm shocked, shocked to find out DRM can be defeated. So, just to make sure I never accidentally break the law how does that work exactly? I would hate to drop my iPhone and find that all the DRM bits have broken off and oozed out through the headphone port. There'd be electrons everywhere! I'd be cleaning for hours.

Just a minor nitpick, but isn't defeating copy protection, even if you have no intention of distributing the work to others a crime in the United States? If it is illegal, then this is because of the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act). This act explicitly says that it does not remove any fair use protections to copyright, but most legal cases seem to have come down against this (i.e. it probably does remove fair use protections). Format shifting is a fair use in the US, see Clarification, please. (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=240353&postcount=3). For ebooks in particular, there are exceptions to the DMCA that may make it legal to format shift most DRMed ebooks, see Mobipocket announcements at IDPF conference (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=228143&postcount=36).

The practical answer is who would know and who would care if you format shift for personal use.

Okay, so...let's make this a specific hypothetical, and one that will sidestep the rights question:

Suppose I download my own novel, From a Changeling Star (http://store.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=book&bi=2233&si=37), from Fictionwise. It's listed as having Read-Aloud disabled for all formats except .LIT. But suppose I chose another format like Mobipocket or eReader and I wanted to enable those to be read aloud. How would I do that? (Remember, I'm the copyright holder.)

I actually have no experience whatever with read-aloud software, so I don't even know if those particular formats are compatible even without the DRM.

I think the whole DRM argument is silly. If I wanted to let my mother read my copy of any book in paper, I could do this in five minutes and it wouldn't be illegal at all. Or she could go get it from the library for free. Anyone who wants free books just for the sake of having free books has plenty of legal ways they can get them.

My sister has in the past given me access to her Fictionwise account. About 95% of it didn't interest me because she's a little more into the smut than I am :) Of the fifty-off titles she showed me, I did download two of them. One of them was okay, I am not sorry I read it but it would not have been something I would have picked out on my own and I did not, as a result of reading it, seek out any of the author's other books. The other was the first in a series. I really liked it. But as I said, my sister has different tastes than me. She did not like it so much and only had book 1. So I did go out and buy the subsequent ones on my own. I don't feel like I did anything illegal, either. I don't see the difference in that and in my sister loaning me a print book and then the same result happening: either it was not for me, in which case I would not have bought it anyway, or I liked it and am on my own for acquiring the author's other works, as it should be :) Either way, in e or not, the author who has won me over on their merits gains a sale they would not have otherwise had because I get introduced to their work by another reader. So what's the problem?

Okay, so...let's make this a specific hypothetical, and one that will sidestep the rights question:

Suppose I download my own novel, From a Changeling Star (http://store.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=book&bi=2233&si=37), from Fictionwise. It's listed as having Read-Aloud disabled for all formats except .LIT. But suppose I chose another format like Mobipocket or eReader and I wanted to enable those to be read aloud. How would I do that? (Remember, I'm the copyright holder.)

I actually have no experience whatever with read-aloud software, so I don't even know if those particular formats are compatible even without the DRM.

Read-Aloud I am not sure about, but if I understand DMCA correctly, breaking encryption based copy protection on media is a crime in and of itself. Therefore, if you downloaded a DRM'd version of your own work, and then broke the copy protection on it, you are in fact technically breaking the law; if I understand it correctly, this would be the case, even if as the author of the book in question, you could simply take the original document and convert into a DRM free version.

Essentially, fair use, and if I understand it correctly, authorial ownership has nothing to do with it. Essentially, you have to have explicit permission of the owner of the DRM to break it (otherwise CS students in cryptography classes everywhere would be going to jail).

I know all of this is silly. Personally, I understand why some form of DRM might be necessary, but for the most part, the current legal structure is draconian, and really serves no purpose. Real pirates (i.e. those who copy intellectual properly without permission and distribute it widely) are never stopped by DRM. That being said, I would prefer stay safe and avoid what I consider to be draconian DRM'd books. Non-DRM and and non-centrally served DRM (like eReader) are the only books I am planning on buying.

--
Bill

I think the whole DRM argument is silly. If I wanted to let my mother read my copy of any book in paper, I could do this in five minutes and it wouldn't be illegal at all. Or she could go get it from the library for free. Anyone who wants free books just for the sake of having free books has plenty of legal ways they can get them.

My sister has in the past given me access to her Fictionwise account. About 95% of it didn't interest me because she's a little more into the smut than I am :) Of the fifty-off titles she showed me, I did download two of them. One of them was okay, I am not sorry I read it but it would not have been something I would have picked out on my own and I did not, as a result of reading it, seek out any of the author's other books. The other was the first in a series. I really liked it. But as I said, my sister has different tastes than me. She did not like it so much and only had book 1. So I did go out and buy the subsequent ones on my own. I don't feel like I did anything illegal, either. I don't see the difference in that and in my sister loaning me a print book and then the same result happening: either it was not for me, in which case I would not have bought it anyway, or I liked it and am on my own for acquiring the author's other works, as it should be :) Either way, in e or not, the author who has won me over on their merits gains a sale they would not have otherwise had because I get introduced to their work by another reader. So what's the problem?


Because legally, you made a full copy of a work that you were not given permission to make a copy of by the author of said work. It would legally be the same as if you just made photo-copies of your sister's books for yourself (but much easier of course). Generally, I think the courts have found such copies to stretch beyond the bounds of fair use for private indivduals (I think it is sometimes ok for teachers....).

--
Bill

It's listed as having Read-Aloud disabled for all formats except .LIT. But suppose I chose another format like Mobipocket or eReader and I wanted to enable those to be read aloud. How would I do that? Note that this title is a FictionWise Multi-Format ebook, so it does not have DRM.

So far as I can tell, the only "major" Reader with a built-in read aloud option is MS Reader. There are also accessibility tools that can read off the screen, but the problem for DRMed reader software is that 3rd party text to speech starts with text and if the speech app can get the text so can a DRM cracking program. So none of the reader apps "cooperate" with text to speech programs.

I have never seen text to speech enabled on a DRM ebook (it would only be effective for LIT anyway, since the others don't have text to speech). This means that the following current, November 2006, exception from the prohibition against circumvention of access-control technology in the DMCA (see Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA#Anti-circumvention_exemptions)) probably applies to all ebooks, and they can all be format shifted for personal use by anyone in the US:

Literary works distributed in ebook format when all existing ebook editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling either of the book’s read-aloud function or of screen readers that render the text into a specialized format.


The only certain exception to the exception would be when the publisher makes a version available via an 'authorized entity' (a nonprofit organization or a governmental agency that has a primary mission to provide specialized services relating to training, education, or adaptive reading or information access needs of blind or other persons with disabilities). Perhaps all publishers are routinely doing this, but I have not seen any "outreach" e.g. when I buy an ebook there isn't a FAQ saying read aloud disabled but go to this web site to get a free version if you need this capability.

Note that writing DRM cracking programs and helping others get them working is still illegal, even when using such programs is legal.

How do I know if my Mobipocket book is DRM? Its a .prc file. I thought I could use Bookshelf to read mobipocket books?

Can anyone answer my question? Also is there a reader that I can use to read my purchased ebook from mobipocket? Its a .prc file

Can anyone answer my question? Also is there a reader that I can use to read my purchased ebook from mobipocket? Its a .prc file

You can read your .prc file in Mobi Reader on your PC, or in Mobi Reader on a handheld device such as a PDA. If you don't have that software, you can download it for free from Mobipocket. Did you say what kind of device you wanted to read it on? If so, I missed it.

I would guess that if you can read the file without supplying any kind of code, then your file is non-DRM.

Others here have more detailed knowledge than I do, so if I haven't answered your question, hopefully someone else will.

Can anyone answer my question? Also is there a reader that I can use to read my purchased ebook from mobipocket? Its a .prc file

You can't tell if it is a DRM file by just looking at it. There are several readers that can read DRM files Mobi format. The iLiad, the Digital Reader, both from iRex; The cybook and the Hanlin (EZ Reader, BeBOOK, Walkbook, lBook) can all read this format. With igorsk scripts you can also read DRM Mobi on a Kindle. Non DRM can be read directly on all of these devices.

If you have already purchased the book then you will have to register the device and redownload the book to read it if it has DRM.

Dale

How do I know if my Mobipocket book is DRM? Its a .prc file. I thought I could use Bookshelf to read mobipocket books? If you had to select one format before buying the ebook then most likely it has DRM. If you have a Windows PC, try reading it with Windows MobiPocket Desktop Reader. If it does not open (e.g. you get an error about vendor not found), then it has DRM and it is not authorized for your PC. If it does open, then in the library view right click on the ebook and select options to see if it is encrypted or not. On a Mac, try reading it with Stanza - if it does not open it probably has DRM.

A DRMed MOBI ebook can be authorized for up to 4 devices, so if your target device has Reader software from MobiPocket available all you need do is register its PID and redownload the ebook. However, MobiPocket does not have a reader for the iPod Touch yet. So your best option is to use mobidedrm to strip the DRM and then use Stanza (say) to read the ebook.

How do I know if my Mobipocket book is DRM? Its a .prc file. I thought I could use Bookshelf to read mobipocket books?
Do you know the PID? If you do, you can run it through MobiDeDRM.py 0.04 amd see if it removes the DRM. Or you could try viewing it with Mobipocket Reader that has a different PID.

I got Bonjour working with Shelfserver for the Bookshelf. But, says device not autorized. So, I take it I need to remove the DRM? I guess I'll just download the book, through fictionwise and read it on ereader. Bummer, spent money on mobipocket book...what a waste!

I guess I'll just download the book, through fictionwise and read it on ereader. Bummer, spent money on mobipocket book...what a waste!

More bad news, I am afraid. You cannot read Mobi books with eReader. Once you have purchased and downloaded the book in a protected format (Mobi, in this case), you cannot generally get it in another secure format, such as eReader.

The Bandit

No, I mean buy the book again, but through ereader. Which is what I did. Works perfectly with my touch now!

By the way, can I bookmark with ereader? How?

No, I mean buy the book again, but through ereader. Which is what I did. Works perfectly with my touch now!

By the way, can I bookmark with ereader? How?

Just tap the upper right corner of the page. It should put a graphic there that looks like dog-eared paper.

The Bandit

How do I know if my Mobipocket book is DRM? Its a .prc file. I thought I could use Bookshelf to read mobipocket books?

What was its format described as in the eBook store that you bought it from? Did you have to enter a device PID when you bought it?

i have a touch2.0 i use my touch as a pda, yes there is actually a great pda program out for the touch now and i've had pda's since the palm pro(and every other device since) this is the best pda i've ever seen, ok aside from that i use it to read a lot pdf's i'm back in college and all my books are in pdf now, the itouch looks amazing, it puts my ds to shame if it had the same viewable area as my psp it'd put that to shame too, and i actually find it more comfortable to read on the touch than my laptop or computer.

i use airsharing it was free when i downloaded it, it's simple to use, download it, put in a few settings and you copy, yes thats right you can copy all the pdfs you need to the touch from wifi, none of that stupid read online storage crap, it lets you actually use the 8/16gigs for more than music or video storage.

the screen is beautiful, if apple made a novel size version of the touch(like sony prs or kindle) i would buy that instantly i love this so much, navigation is a blessing, however it is damn small!!! i can flip it horizonal and read w/o scrolling side to side but i just have to scroll up and down, lots.

i find myself using the touch to read with a lot but i find myself wishing apple would make a bigger version, like now(cuz i have no idea how the sony does pdf's), oh i hate apple btw, i even engraved that they are the evil empire since they offered free engraving.

Hi lanx,

What's this great PDA software that you use? I'd like to check it out.

airsharing

I'm already setup with free transfer/access with ssh (winscp) and there's a free USB transfer program who's name escapes me. Diskaid (http://www.iphone-hacks.com/2008/10/16/diskaid-for-usb-file-transfer-mac-pc/), that's the one.