I was one of the first to order a DR1000S, and because Irex won't deign to communicate with me I've had a fair amount of time to ponder the features of the Digital Reader. I've come to realize that it costs too much and does too little.

At $750, the DR1000S has to compete with similarly price laptops. I think it needs to be able to match the document handling abilities of a laptop. I know it doesn't have a keyboard, but that wasn't my point: it also lacks Wifi. And this shortcoming is the killer. I want Wifi because I want the Digital Reader to be able to match 3 abilities of a $750 laptop:

1. print using a network printer;
2. send and receive documents from an email account;
3. download and open files from a network hard disk.

The DR1000S cannot do this. Instead, it requires that you plug it in to a computer anytime you want to transfer a file. This makes it a $750 accessory to your computer. I don't want an accessory. For what this thing costs, I want it to be completely independent.

I know someone is going to counter with a comment about how Eink is a more pleasant experience. I agree, it is better that LCD. However, I must ask: is it the better experience worth $750 extra to add the DR1000S as an accessory to your computer? Since I am not bothered by LCD screens, I do not think so.

And yes, I do know about the DR1000SW and that it has Wifi. But until I know that it can do the 3 things I listed, my position will not change.

Certainly it's a "PC accessory". So is every eBook reader on the market (except, arguably, the Amazon Kindle). I have no problem with that, personally, since my PC is where I store my eBooks.

I originally indicated I would buy a DR1000S, but I now think WiFi is "worth" an extra $100 if the DR1000SW has a workable web browser. It would then support web-based email at least.

I like the fact that 3rd party apps run on the iLiad, and this would be a plus for me if the same is true of the DR. Note that a touch screen greatly expands the universe of existing Linux 3rd party apps, and so high-end devices from other vendors will likely have the hardware to support these apps next year too. On the other hand, I am also interesting in what Amazon will do in this area because they are probably not going to focus on the business user but perhaps instead on the college market. Also, they already have internet connectivity and a web browser. Their device will be closed to 3rd party apps, but it may be "good enough" with the provided software.

Sounds like you should have waited for the SW to be released.

I know the iLiad can already do #3, and #2 as well with third party software, so I assume it'll be similar with the DR.

With #1, do you mean printing from a PC to the DR as a network printer, or printing from the DR to another network printer? I know they've said you can print to it but I don't know if that will work over WiFi or if it's only as a USB connected device. Printing from it would be interesting. I don't know if they'll support that, but it sounds possible with third party software.

I want Wifi because I want the Digital Reader to be able to match 3 abilities of a $750 laptop:

1. print using a network printer;
2. send and receive documents from an email account;
3. download and open files from a network hard disk.


If I could get a tablet format PC with a battery life of 20hours I would certainly prefer it to a DR1000 type device. This is due to as you say the capabilities of a PC compared to a dedicated reader.

However, format, weight and battery life are what you are paying the premium for.

Something like this would be nice: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/products/mobile/tablet_pcs/stylistic_st.html but I bet that's gonna cost close to $2000.

BOb

I can think of some situations where wifi would actually be an undesirable thing -- I'm thinking of ones where privacy considerations are very big. :shrug:

Those folks may or may not be the majority, of course.

Personally, if it will do the stuff I need it to, the better visibility of the e-ink, and the greater battery life that goes with it would more than off-set the lack of "laptop" features. But I'm not looking for a fully stand-alone device in the first place, but rather a data appliance. :nice:

I can think of some situations where wifi would actually be an undesirable thing -- I'm thinking of ones where privacy considerations are very big. :shrug:


Do you mean people like doctors and so on? Modern WiFi security is pretty "robust" isn't it? Not much likelyhood of your data being intercepted, I wouldn't have thought.

The company I work for does military "secret" stuff, and they're happy to have WiFi networks with the appropriate level of security enabled on it.

Do you mean people like doctors and so on? Modern WiFi security is pretty "robust" isn't it? Not much likelyhood of your data being intercepted, I wouldn't have thought.I was thinking about docs and lawyers, yes. And I agree that the encryption is pretty danged good.

However, if you'd like to explain that to someone who has both an M.D. and a Ph.D. (in fields completely unrelated to computers), and regards that collection of letters as proof that everything is exactly as he perceives it to be at first glance, and who has heard all about how you can sniff wifi with a Pringles can (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantenna#Construction), thank you very much, and is making the infrastructure decisions here, you just be my guest. :wreck:

I'm still trying to explain to them that they have to read user notices that I put up on the application, because not everything can be so obvious as to need no explanation. :tired:

Seriously, the number one (or two, depending on the year) Cancer Research Institute in the U.S., possibly the world, has only recently moved away from the position that "we will never have wireless networking here" because it's too unsecure.

Seriously, the number one (or two, depending on the year) Cancer Research Institute in the U.S., possibly the world, has only recently moved away from the position that "we will never have wireless networking here" because it's too unsecure.

They take an interesting approach to wireless at my office. Rather than having a WPA password that they have to distribute the wireless is fully open. However, it is outside of the firewall in the DMZ as they call it. So, if you connect to it in the office you can surf the web and such, but can't get to the internal stuff. If you want to do that you have to use the VPN. Of course, the VPN is secure end-to-end so even though the wireless is open, the traffic is encrypted.

I am aware of several places that do this. However, if you are talking about a reader I doubt it would be able to run the VPN software.

Anyway... I think the security risk with a WiFi device... assuming they are running WPA is weeker in the device it self. You steal the reader you've got access to everything on it. These things don't have security at all from what I understand. So, unless you are talking about ONLY using it as sort of a dumb terminal browser I don't think it would be the best choice for a portable browser device for say a Dr. or Lawyer's office.

BOb

Personally, if it will do the stuff I need it to, the better visibility of the e-ink, and the greater battery life that goes with it would more than off-set the lack of "laptop" features. But I'm not looking for a fully stand-alone device in the first place, but rather a data appliance. :nice:

Agreed.

I don't look at these devices as an alternative to a computer or a laptop, but an alternative to paper. If I can do it with a piece of paper or notepad, I want to be able to do it with the reader. ;)

You also have to think about the fact that for many companies, just having a device which could be 'potentially' used to get online is considered a distraction or dangerous.

In such places, the requirement that it be plugged in could actually be considered an advantage, with workers only plugging it in a couple of times a day to transfer in new stuff.

Anyway... I think the security risk with a WiFi device... assuming they are running WPA is weeker in the device it self. You steal the reader you've got access to everything on it. These things don't have security at all from what I understand. So, unless you are talking about ONLY using it as sort of a dumb terminal browser I don't think it would be the best choice for a portable browser device for say a Dr. or Lawyer's office.

BOb

How is someone stealing the device and somehow accessing a terminal window on the iLiad/DR even remotely likely?
Apart from the fact that you're going to stand out quite a bit carrying that thing around, it's not like you can do very much with the OS itself.
apart from that the thing is running linux, so having an open network connection doesn't automatically mean you're sharing everything you own with the world even while the WiFi is on.

How is someone stealing the device and somehow accessing a terminal window on the iLiad/DR even remotely likely?


No I mean if someone steals the device and looks at the stuff on it. Light portable devices are pretty easy to steal.

BOb

I don't look at these devices as an alternative to a computer or a laptop

I agree. An ebook device isn't a laptop, and isn't trying to be one. They serve different purposes.

If you want a laptop like reader buy an Eee PC, 10" :>. For me the most important is the screen. I've tried reading on a laptop and after 2 hours my eyes hurt.

They take an interesting approach to wireless at my office. Rather than having a WPA password that they have to distribute the wireless is fully open. However, it is outside of the firewall in the DMZ as they call it. So, if you connect to it in the office you can surf the web and such, but can't get to the internal stuff. If you want to do that you have to use the VPN. Of course, the VPN is secure end-to-end so even though the wireless is open, the traffic is encrypted.

I am aware of several places that do this. However, if you are talking about a reader I doubt it would be able to run the VPN software.

Anyway... I think the security risk with a WiFi device... assuming they are running WPA is weeker in the device it self. You steal the reader you've got access to everything on it. These things don't have security at all from what I understand. So, unless you are talking about ONLY using it as sort of a dumb terminal browser I don't think it would be the best choice for a portable browser device for say a Dr. or Lawyer's office.

BOb


I think we are talking about two different types of security here. One, the unauthorized access of sensitive data (which is what has been talked about so far). Wifi with strong encryption is quite good enough for that. The second security is unauthorized tracking data. And that is inherent to a Wifi setup. Things like spyware, or vicinity tracking. Maybe it's the Cave-man in me, but I don't choose to allow marketers to track what I'm currently reading, or people to see at what Wifi hot-spot my reader is at. I will cheerfully pay the price of loading files from my PC for this privelege.

Well you do bring up an important point. At this price level ($700+) it is competing with a number of laptops which have far more functionality. For the moment we'll put the screen type and how it is easier on eyes aside.

Laptop will certainly do much more and include Wifi and other ports at no extra cost. Screen size is comparable too. In fact, for some/many people laptop makes more sense when using more interactive apps like browsing and e-mail.

However, for the most part laptops are limited to 2-3 hour run time. Sure there are bigger batteries and carrying extra batteries, etc. However when using my own laptop even for the most mundane tasks I am always worrying about the battery and how much longer do I have. I find it very limiting, especially when on the move.

Even if I had a small one that is not much bigger than a reader, can I just use it any place for hours? With the reader I no longer have to worry about battery making it much more mobile. My laptop is like having an anchor that keeps it close to an outlet and charger. Very frustrating.

So I agree that for many people a laptop will be more appropriate at the price level. However, I still think these devices have a market as well.

With #1, do you mean printing from a PC to the DR as a network printer, or printing from the DR to another network printer? I know they've said you can print to it but I don't know if that will work over WiFi or if it's only as a USB connected device. Printing from it would be interesting. I don't know if they'll support that, but it sounds possible with third party software.

I was referring to printing from the DR.

Do you mean people like doctors and so on? Modern WiFi security is pretty "robust" isn't it? Not much likelyhood of your data being intercepted, I wouldn't have thought.


The security at places like conferences and hotels are pretty non existent.

Perhaps a better way to phrase it is that for $750 I want a complimentary device, not a subordinate one. The DR cannot be used without a PC. I want a device that can do some of the document editing functions of a PC; upload and download documents directly from the source (email, printer, NAS) and does not need the PC to accomplish this.

Printing from it would be interesting. I don't know if they'll support that, but it sounds possible with third party software. This is possible from a Nokia N800, which seems to be an approximately equivalent device at the basic Linux level. On the N800, it seems to be relatively easy if you already have a CUPS (Common UNIX Printing System) server on the network, otherwise the N800 needs to run its own CUPS server.

Printing via bluetooth might also be an option.

I was thinking either cups and/or samba. The iLiad is already acting as a samba client, I believe, which is how it syncs documents with a PC via wifi (and probably the DR will too). In theory it should be possible to connect to a samba shared network printer as well. You'd just need a way of sending the print job, but there are basic linux command line tools that can do that. I would assume those tools will work with shell access.

Sounds like you should have waited for the SW to be released.

I'm not getting any of them. I will not buy complicated delicate electronics from a company so lacking in customer service. This was one of the reasons I did not buy an Iliad. (Somehow I made myself forget the lack of CS when I ordered the DR1000S.)

Did you cancel your order then, Nate? Did you already say that and I missed it?

I don't know that I will be able to cancel the order. That event is dependent upon Irex responding to a customer. It might never happen.

Perhaps a better way to phrase it is that for $750 I want a complimentary device, not a subordinate one. The DR cannot be used without a PC. I want a device that can do some of the document editing functions of a PC; upload and download documents directly from the source (email, printer, NAS) and does not need the PC to accomplish this.

Sounds like you'd be better off with a Tablet PC.

Nate, the posts title is "My Opinion of the DR1000". Wouldnt it have been better to write "My Opinion of the DR1000S"?

Gogolo

My experience with Iliad tells me that it doesn't make sense to compare the device to laptops or tablet pc. Though iLiad and 1000sw does support wifi, the internet access is too unreliable and slow. I think 1000sw will not change that because eInk is not responsive enough for a convient browsing or emailing.

Still, iLiad and RD1000 will serve me for a single purpose: to read lots of long technical papers and books. I think that should be THE reason to buy this expensive device. Otherwise, you will be disappointed.

I was one of the first to order a DR1000S... I'm not getting any of them... Somehow I made myself forget the lack of CS when I ordered the DR1000S.

Now I'm just confused. :shrug:

Now I'm just confused. :shrug:

Nate seems to be (understandably) annoyed that iRex is ignoring his order.

My experience with Iliad tells me that it doesn't make sense to compare the device to laptops or tablet pc. Though iLiad and 1000sw does support wifi, the internet access is too unreliable and slow. I think 1000sw will not change that because eInk is not responsive enough for a convient browsing or emailing.

Still, iLiad and RD1000 will serve me for a single purpose: to read lots of long technical papers and books. I think that should be THE reason to buy this expensive device. Otherwise, you will be disappointed.

I did not say I wanted a browser. I listed 3 specific document handling activities that I want. I can perform those activities on a laptop without the need for the DR1000. I cannot perform them on the DR 1000 without a computer. This is a shortcoming, in my opinion.

I did not say I wanted a browser. I listed 3 specific document handling activities that I want. I can perform those activities on a laptop without the need for the DR1000. I cannot perform them on the DR 1000 without a computer. This is a shortcoming, in my opinion.

With the very greatest respect, Nate, the fact that a particular device doesn't do what you personally want is not a shortcoming in the device; it simply indicates that the device isn't suitable for your specific needs.

With the very greatest respect, Nate, the fact that a particular device doesn't do what you personally want is not a shortcoming in the device; it simply indicates that the device isn't suitable for your specific needs.

Exactly. What Nate's comparison basically says is that the DR1000 is not a laptop. He's right, but I didn't think it was supposed to be one.

Exactly. What Nate's comparison basically says is that the DR1000 is not a laptop. He's right, but I didn't think it was supposed to be one.

That is not at all what I said. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I don't get the impression that he's trying to put words in your mouth, Nate, so much as trying to summarize what it sounded to him like you were getting at. :shrug:

It's just an attempt to make sure of understanding, I expect. :nice:

I, on the other hand, would summarize it that for the price, you're looking for more features than the DR is going to have, and that those features would mostly be filled by a laptop or tablet at a similar, if not lower price point.

Does that come closer to what you're saying?

That is not at all what I said. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Isn't that basically what this means?


I can perform those activities on a laptop without the need for the DR1000. I cannot perform them on the DR 1000 without a computer.


If not, then I'm misinterpreting you and/or summarizing poorly. But, it sounds to me like what you really are looking for is a laptop/tablet, not an ebook device. You are correct in that for your requirements, an ebook reader is not a stand alone device that is able to exist without the need for a supporting computer. But is it supposed to be?

I don't think ebook readers are meant to replace laptops. They fill a different need.

That is a reasonable interpretation, but I think you took it out of context. I saw it as questioning the value of adding a $750 accessory to perform an activity that can be accomplished without the accessory. But that sentence could be interpreted both ways.


The viewpoint of your last two sentences raise an interesting point. Why do you (and a bunch of other people) see the DR1000 as _only_ an ebook reader? It seems like once the label was applied no one considered how capable the hardware really is. I see the DR1000 as a slate PC with a 10" Eink screen. I want Wifi on this slate PC so I can move PDFs & etc on and _off_ easier.

The viewpoint of your last two sentences raise an interesting point. Why do you (and a bunch of other people) see the DR1000 as _only_ an ebook reader?


Because that's what it's being marketed as? I agree there is more potential there compared to other readers, and it's more of a general document reader and note taker, but it's not really meant to replace a laptop/tablet/slate PC either.

It seems like once the label was applied no one considered how capable the hardware really is. I see the DR1000 as a slate PC with a 10" Eink screen. I want Wifi on this slate PC so I can move PDFs & etc on and _off_ easier.

The SW model does have Wifi, and sounds like it will do most of what you are asking for.

The problem that devices have is that they do a bunch of stuff half @$$ed. I like that the ebooks are marketed as ebooks not as laptops or web browers or music devices or TVs or video players. Its silly.

If I want to listen to music I have an iPod that does a great job, if I want to watch a movie I watch it on my TV, if I want to surf the web I use my computer. I dont understand why people now want every device to do everything, I'd much rather have my iPod get 20 hours of music life than to get 2 hours because it jams a bunch of other useless stuff in there.

Wifi is pointless for an eBook reader, if you have an ebook reader you probably have a computer, if you dont then I feel very sorry for you. They need to strip these devices down and get the functionality working seamlessly and stop adding more stuff on. The more you add the more you can ignore core problems. Concentrate on speeding up boot time and page turns dont worry about web browsing.

People aren't not buying ebook readers because they can't watch TV on it, its because there isn't content regularly available and the devices are slow. Companies should concentrate on that and throw the bells and whistles on at the end. As Obama said about Palin, its like putting lipstick on a pig

I see it more as an document handling appliance. As such, yeah, it's kinda pricey. However, if it fills the niche well enough, professional users will make it up in paper and toner right quick, real fast, and in a hurry. :shrug:

The DR1000SW might eventually be able to function as a slate in the way Nate seems to want, but I think that will be after the SDK is released and the community has a chance to enhance the capabilities of the system. It doesn't look to me like iRex plans to invest a lot in the software functionality. (For example, they haven't bothered to provide a plugin to access MS documents in their viewer -- when that's probably the kind of document most people will want to read.)

The viewpoint of your last two sentences raise an interesting point. Why do you (and a bunch of other people) see the DR1000 as _only_ an ebook reader? It seems like once the label was applied no one considered how capable the hardware really is. I see the DR1000 as a slate PC with a 10" Eink screen. I want Wifi on this slate PC so I can move PDFs & etc on and _off_ easier.

That's an interesting idea.

I originally thought of the iLiad as a tablet computer. But because of the nature of the e-ink screen, you can't really use it like that. Every user function has to have a new interface built for it. So, many seldom used features are left out.

If eink devices were standardized and could run the same operating system across models, perhaps that would change. But in the meantime, you're at the mercy of the priorities of the manufacturer, and what they think is important to program.

If eink devices were standardized and could run the same operating system across models, perhaps that would change. But in the meantime, you're at the mercy of the priorities of the manufacturer, and what they think is important to program.

I have high hopes for OpenInkpot.

I don't know that I will be able to cancel the order. That event is dependent upon Irex responding to a customer. It might never happen.
Do a CC chargeback via your bank, should amount to the same thing :)

Do a CC chargeback via your bank, should amount to the same thing :)

That's what I'll probably do, yes.

a) can you still read and
b) does the device start to charge automatically when plugged in via USB?

Because that is an annoying trait of the PRS-505. One that would shorten the life of certain type of batteries.

I know I would be using the device throughout the day as a third screen for reading documents, and on the train ride back home... So the plug-in, plug-out would be quite frequent...

a) can you still read and
b) does the device start to charge automatically when plugged in via USB?

Because that is an annoying trait of the PRS-505. One that would shorten the life of certain type of batteries.

I know I would be using the device throughout the day as a third screen for reading documents, and on the train ride back home... So the plug-in, plug-out would be quite frequent...

I believe in the Manual which was posted earlier it says you CAN read while the USB is plugged into a computer and charging. It just doesn't charge as quickly.

Yes you can read while plugged in. Unfortunatly, it comes with a standard usb mini b plug that gets in the way, but I am going to order a low profile right angle mini-b that will be less in the way.

To say that the DR1000 is an accessory to a computer is sort of like saying a book is an accesory to a bookstore. Yes, it does need power, but a $10 AC to USB adapter works fine. The DR1000 is a book. In fact, it is all books. It has some features a paper book does not have, like you can scribble on any PDF and (with some added software) convert the scribble to computer text, but why in God's name would you want to print documents from the DR1000? Indeed, the whole demographic for the device is business people who are to use it instead of printing reports!!

Personally, I don't plan to buy another paper book (including sheet music) as long as I live. I won't be using a DR1000 for the rest of my life, but the PDF and CHM files I am accumulating are here to stay, and the 60 pounds of technical manuals, 30 pounds of sheet music and 20 pounds of random personal reading I like to keep around, those are going out the door.

The DR1000 is still a little rough and way too expensive, yes. They are still refining the firmware, and the device is a tad slower than I would like (although it mostly turns pages faster than I can when reading music, and plenty fast when reading anything else). It isn't as slick as an Ipod (or the tablet Captain Picard used to read from on Star Trek TNG) but it's pretty good, pretty easy to use, and veryt open. To me none of the smaller form factors are real products. They might be okay for reading novels, but that's about 1% of my reading. The DR is the first ebook reader in the history of the world to be light, portable, and with a large enough screen and high enough resolution to really and truely display A4 documents, sheet music, magazines and large format books. Yes it's cutting edge and you pay the price, but I carry it with be all day and to me it's worth it.

To say that the DR1000 is an accessory to a computer is sort of like saying a book is an accesory to a bookstore. Yes, it does need power, but a $10 AC to USB adapter works fine. The DR1000 is a book. In fact, it is all books. It has some features a paper book does not have, like you can scribble on any PDF and (with some added software) convert the scribble to computer text, but why in God's name would you want to print documents from the DR1000? Indeed, the whole demographic for the device is business people who are to use it instead of printing reports!!


Your analogy is wrong. Can you use a book without visiting a bookstore? Yes. Can you use the DR1000S without a computer to load files on to it? No.

Your analogy is wrong. Can you use a book without visiting a bookstore? Yes. Can you use the DR1000S without a computer to load files on to it? No.

The DR is a computer accessory. That's not a startling revelation - so is every other eBook Reader on the market, with the possible (and rather limited) exception of the Kindle.