View Full Version : What am I just not getting about epub?


brewt
09-25-2008, 11:54 AM
Sure, it's from our friends at Adobe, BUT:

Exporting an epub from InDesign strips out all the coolness you can invoke in InDesign (which would be the biggest draw).

Try as I might, I can't get an InDesign-produced epub to open in Mobipocket.

There's no epub reader for portable devices (like pocket pc, or even dedicated readers).

Should I be using Flash to build it instead?

-bjc

gwynevans
09-25-2008, 12:13 PM
There's no epub reader for portable devices (like pocket pc, or even dedicated readers).

The recent firmware update (V1.1) added ePub support to the current Sony Reader, so there's one, at least...

pilotbob
09-25-2008, 12:20 PM
There's no epub reader for portable devices (like pocket pc, or even dedicated readers).


Does FBReader not support ePub? The website says OEB format... is that ePub?

If not I'm surprised it is not on their roadmap.

BOb

HarryT
09-25-2008, 12:28 PM
ePub is a "successor" to OEB. The principles on which they work is very similar.

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 12:30 PM
also on a pocket pc you can install adobe digital edition which will allow you to read epub on the pc.

and while it has not been implemented yet, bookeen has said they intend to support epub natively as well in the near future.

i'm curious about what you mean when you say that a conversion to epub "strips out" all the indesign goodness... are you referring to tracking / kerning etc. ? epub has other strengths specifically in the context of reflowable, searchable documents that make it much more powerful than any other format currently existing, including things like complete meta-data, true TOC support, true pagination, real footnote support, CSS support allowing you to make more complex and refined layout, support for images including vector images (svg), and in fact the ability to handle even multimedia embedded in books once the devices will be able to exploit this ; like video or sound. not all of these features are yet available on the devices available for purchase today but we all know how fast technology moves, i wouldn't want to put brakes on the format just to keep pace with the devices.

wallcraft
09-25-2008, 12:35 PM
Does FBReader not support ePub? FBReader's current ePub capability is limited by its lack of CCS support and it also can't read the toc.ncx.

brewt
09-25-2008, 03:33 PM
I'm attaching a pic - left side shows what I'm seeing in InDesign, right side shows what I'm seeing in Digital Editions. (the photo [Isaac himself] landed at the bottom of the epub. No font tricks like the initial cap nor italics, no flow tricks, etc.) Kerning isn't bad in the epub, hyphenation doesn't seem to kick in so good. And this is just a "simple" example, nothing groovy like multi-level tocs, haven't even tried footnotes....

...Obviously, I'm doing something wrong.......

Yes, I can see the epub in fbreader and digital editions, but not at all in Mobi - it says "processing", then goes back to the library, and the epub doesn't show up in the library either. Even if I strip out extra doohickeys like photos.

And Adobe hasn't released Digital Editions for Pocket PC (yet).

Are my expectations just wrong?

-bjc

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 04:01 PM
ah, i see why you would be frustrated. that result surprises me quite a bit, to be honest. i've not made an epub from indesign so far (i haven't upgraded to the new version yet, so i can't) so i'm afraid i can't help you, but there MUST be a way to get a better result than that, otherwise i really don't see the point of integrating the feature into indesign.

just a (completely random...) guess : to get the epub, do you "save as" or "export" ? if both are available, try the other one. and see if there is a preferences dialogue box for the epub export, like there is for pdf exports. as i said, i don't know what to do, since my indesign won't make epub, but based on what i know of the app i would expect some possibility like that.

as for mobi, the epub files i've converted have worked fine (the first time, it was accidental ; i double clicked the file thinking i would unzip it that way, and it opened in mobipocket. it did take several seconds). check if you have the most recent version of mobipocket. for me, it opened like any other mobi file : it was added to the library, and it opened the file directly for reading.

brewt
09-25-2008, 04:21 PM
I've done (what looks like) the right settings in cs3 to export the epub - embed the fonts, resize the graphics, etc etc. No "save-as" for epub - it's a "cross-media export", like their idea of html export. (Not quite as bad as Quark's html export, but very close to and-the-point-is?-ed-ness).

Funny, the epub looks remarkably like the original Word document I imported into InDesign, before I started playing. Seems to be a rather unnecessarily pricey word-to-epub converter.

Even the "how to use indesign" books say "you might want to not bother so much with epub - it's not a very complete standard, producing unexpected results". No kidding.

In case nobody noticed, Quark's .lit converter was terrible - even worse than this.

It would be nice to be able to use a real pagination program (like Quark or InDesign) to produce ebooks - after all, that's what's usually used to produce real books. Until then: Epub is better because.....??????

-bjc

kovidgoyal
09-25-2008, 05:04 PM
I'm not trying to be rude, but you dont seem to understand the concept of reflow. The whole idea behind the "ebook" is that there is no longer a concept of "page". Ebook formats, like EPUB, as opposed to paper formats, like PDF, are meant to be reflowable. That means, you simply cannot acheive the level of layout control that you can with page based documents.

The big advantage of reflowable documents is that they can be viewed well on a large variety of screen sizes. If you want to create good looking epub books, use a HTML editor to create a good looking web page and then convert that into a epub book. Trying to produce a good looking reflowable document from software designed for fixed page layouts is futile.

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 05:41 PM
kovid, a lot of what you say makes sense, and i would agree that logically the best way to make epub is to start from html, but nonetheless i think there seem to be a LOT of details that *should* be available from indesign and don't seem to get carried over in the export there, regardless of reflow. things like dropcaps, floated images within a specific paragraph, and italics should all be included. i agree with the op : indesign's epub production is (for the moment at least) disappointing at best, and given that precisely that is one of the big selling points in hypothetical discussions with publishers ("you can integrate ebook creation right into your workflow ! export epub directly from indesign when you do the layout of the print edition !") i would have expected better.

let's just hope that adobe makes more of an effort in later versions of indesign. in the meantime though, it looks like the best option is to make your epub from html.

as usual, i'll point out that (if you don't want to make a print copy, and therefore don't *need* to use indesign) one easy way to make a GOOD epub ebook is using the feedbooks.com interface. especially with the new features hadrien has been implementing it's turning into a really complete and powerful app.

wallcraft
09-25-2008, 05:49 PM
That means, you simply cannot acheive the level of layout control that you can with page based documents. Certainly true, but it is a matter of degree rather than an absolute difference. There is no reason why many of the elements of the fixed page design can't carry over. Almost all the missing distinctive elements here (italics for author, large 1st character, flow around an image) can be achieved using ePub, see Ebook page design (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=255119&postcount=4). I have not seen a large 1st character for a chapter in ePubs (they are an ugly rash all over Amazon Kindle topaz ebooks), and perhaps this is an element best avoided in a reflowable version. Overall, this seems to be a lack of skill on the part of InDesign, particularly in leaving the image at the bottom of the page.

Other elements, like hyphenation, do seem to be lacking in ePub and are not intrinsically disallowed by reflow. Given how may things are required by ePub, some basic standard hyphenation capability would have been nice.

kovidgoyal
09-25-2008, 05:50 PM
Yeah but indesign undoubtedly has its internals designed around the fixed size layout concept, which means that's its probably never going to be good at creating epub.

And really, telling publishers that the advantage of epub is that it can be easily integrated into their existing workflows is somewhat disingenuous. An ebook (especially a well designed one) is a very different beast from a pbook and there is no way that the same workflow is going to be able to produce both good looking ebooks and pbooks.

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 06:00 PM
kovid : interesting point. perhaps this was naÔve on my part but i sincerely expected indesign (particularly given it's an adobe product, and adobe seem to be quite implicated in epub) to be able to make an acceptable epub file. this does not seem to be the case. hopefully it will improve.

it's true, ebooks *are* completely different from pbooks, however i really don't see why the export could not be integrated into indesign, given a certain degree of thinking ahead, both on the part of adobe dev team and on the part of the end user (through new features, and through user-defined preferences) ; if you use a style called "chapter" (or whatever) for your chapter titles, indesign could automatically recognize that, and shuffle off the text to the toc element. this could be defined via a dialogue box ("style x goes in this element, style y in this other element...") if you are properly using styles to create your document this should not pose a problem. options could be added to text boxes to say "every time i force a page break in a certain way, you create a new xhtml chapter element for the epub" (perhaps they could add a new page break called "chapter break" for just this case). images could be linked to the paragraph they're floated next to. dropcaps (wallcraft : large 1st character is called a dropcap) can be done with css.

again, perhaps i'm naive, but adobe does some amazing things, and they should understand epub, so i really don't think this should be impossible.

kovidgoyal
09-25-2008, 06:22 PM
well the basic problem is that indesign will represent things internally in a fixed layout fashion. So whe you add an image to a page, it will represent the position of the image as "10cm from the top and 3 cm from the left" instead of "indetween the sentences so and so" as would be neccessary for reflowable documents.

THis particular problem is relatively easy to fix, however, the point is that the whole of indesign probably make assumptions like that and fixing the whole thing is going to be a rather non-trivial task.

A more philosophical issue is that you often dont want the sorts of structures you create for a fixed layout in a reflowable one. This is because things that look good at a certain page size, dont, at a very different page size. As a result your design tool needs tohelp you to design and preview your document at various page sizes.

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 06:35 PM
well the basic problem is that indesign will represent things internally in a fixed layout fashion. So whe you add an image to a page, it will represent the position of the image as "10cm from the top and 3 cm from the left" instead of "indetween the sentences so and so" as would be neccessary for reflowable documents.

THis particular problem is relatively easy to fix, however, the point is that the whole of indesign probably make assumptions like that and fixing the whole thing is going to be a rather non-trivial task.

A more philosophical issue is that you often dont want the sorts of structures you create for a fixed layout in a reflowable one. This is because things that look good at a certain page size, dont, at a very different page size. As a result your design tool needs tohelp you to design and preview your document at various page sizes.
i see your point. i still think if adobe wants to integrate epub into indesign, they should make the effort and not do it halfway, even if it is a non-trivial task (to be expected, since as you correctly point out, print and reflowable are worlds apart).

the "preview at different sizes" is valid as well, but if type sizes can be converted to proportional instead of points as part of the conversion (i know, i know, yet another diametrally opposed way of thinking, non-trivial feature implementation... :rolleyes:) then a lot of the things that are ok at one size could work at other sizes. i would think the hardest to manage would be floated images on small screens, but new css rules allows zoomable images so there should be a way around that somehow and below a certain screen size the text would not wrap, the image would be inserted in between 2 lines of text (like currently in mobi books). as for image placement, as i mentioned, i could imagine linking the image to a specific paragraph rather than x,y coordinates ; it could easily be a question of only one or two clicks.

i don't know. you make valid points, but i think that true indesign epub integration would really help the transition for people (publishers, or print designers who want to make ebooks but are intimidated about learning a new technique) who have no interest in or even hostility towards ebooks. and adobe should be able to do a better job than the one they did so far.

kovidgoyal
09-25-2008, 07:19 PM
well if they can pull it off, more power to them. I just dont think it's likely.

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 07:24 PM
because technically it's too difficult / impossible, or because they wouldn't want to devote the team hours to the work ? i fully agree it's a non-trivial modification, but adobe has made other really major modifications to their suite in recent versions and i have confidence they are *capable* of doing it right, IF they want to.

but perhaps that is a very big IF, and as the old saying says, "with 'if' you can put Paris in a bottle."

kovidgoyal
09-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Its like trying to modify a sword so that it will be good at both fighting and digging graves.

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 07:41 PM
Its like trying to modify a sword so that it will be good at both fighting and digging graves.

heh... i'll refrain from asking whether ebooks are fighting or digging graves in this analogy... :rolleyes:

but well put.

discouraging, but well put.

i think i'll still keep a tiny, tiny flame of hope in my heart though. ;) i have great confidence in adobe team that they could do even something as insane and difficult as a sword that can also dig graves. (IF they want to, of course !!)

kovidgoyal
09-25-2008, 07:46 PM
Well if anyone can design the Gravedigger's Sword, it has to be Adobe ;)

zelda_pinwheel
09-25-2008, 07:48 PM
right ! ;)

brewt
09-25-2008, 08:21 PM
At the newspaper I work at, we reflow every story on every page every night, using quark and indesign. People keep changing their mind about what to say or how to say it, etc etc. So it's not like these programs are incapable of reflow. We do it until the last possible moment - we then commit to a fixed pagination.

We re-h&j constantly, which is part of the promise of ebooks - they'll re-h&j on the fly, allowing the end reader to pick type sizes, margins, interline spacing, fonts, etc. I got Dad a Kindle so he make the type big enough that he could actually see it again. A good thing.

At the moment, the state of the art in e-book reading software seems to be around circa 1990 html processing: small-medium-large print, only limited size/resolution pictures on a separate line, very limited typographical nuance available (kerning, hyphenation, etc). Not a lot of design available - if the cohice is to read a hardbound book or a dot-matrix printout of the book which would you choose? There is, I believe, value to being able to present more than just the straight word-content of books. Design matters.

The question is can the so-called "big-league" pagination programs be used for ebooks, as they can bring a lot of things to the table.

So far, the answer is "bleah". There being no shortage of what I can't do with indesign, I'll concede early that maybe I just don't know how - it's just not obvious.

So, back to my original question (with a slight addendum): Over mobipocket format, epub will astonish me by demonstrating..........?????? (that's yer cue)........


-bjc

kovidgoyal
09-25-2008, 09:00 PM
So, back to my original question (with a slight addendum): Over mobipocket format, epub will astonish me by demonstrating..........?????? (that's yer cue)........
-bjc

Mobipocket is just HTML 3.2 without even CSS1. The fact that indesign doesn't produce good epub is a limitation of indesign not epub. You can do with epub everything that is shown in the left picture on your sample.

And hyphenation shouldn't be in the file, it should be a function of the reading software.

brewt
09-26-2008, 12:38 AM
Mobipocket is just HTML 3.2 without even CSS1. The fact that indesign doesn't produce good epub is a limitation of indesign not epub. You can do with epub everything that is shown in the left picture on your sample.

And hyphenation shouldn't be in the file, it should be a function of the reading software.

Uh, yeah, I'd go along with that - no matter what I do to the document once it's in indesign, when I export to epub, it reverts to the original form the text once in when imported. If it started out as plain text, the epub is plain text.

This blows.
:(


from the Big Shop (adobe) itself:

"Still, the XHTML nature and the focus on narrative books means that certain items won't be preserved when exporting ePubs from InDesign."
"The EPUBs exported from InDesign can in some cases comply with the IDPF standards, but won't always be compliant. "


-bjc

zelda_pinwheel
09-26-2008, 12:38 AM
Design matters. completely agree. and as kovid has said, you can make a beautiful book using css rules. however, apparently, you cannot (yet ?) do this with indesign. or not well, anyway.

just to test it out, try the wysiwyg interface from feedbooks.com. if you don't know the code it will simplify things for you, and i think the result will be better than indesign. it still has some limitations, and does not yet handle images at all. on the other hand, if you know html / css, you have the option of editing the code manually, just using the interface to gain time. this allows you much more freedom.

brewt
10-03-2008, 02:30 AM
Ok, so I've been still trying to make this idea work out for my needs (which might include shopping for maybe one-a-them new fancy new sonys).

I've been working with MobiPocket for the last year, 'cause I can make books for my Dad's Kindle. And I found it was hard for him to find a book he wanted on the box, if there were 300+ of them. So I hit on the idea of combining bunches of them into single books - like the complete(ish) works of Zane Grey. Or Louis L'Amour. Or Mark Twain. He now has 70 books-of-books - if he feels like O Henry today, he can open it up and navigate around in the book itself to find the sub-book he want. Easilier than page after page of books.

I've been using Konrad's SiteMap Creator http://www.konradp.com/products/sitemap_creator/ to create an external TOC - each top-level file is a book in the TOC, then I generated a single-book-specific TOC inside each book (using Word). Sure, it's 3-4 clicks to get to a specific chapter in a specific book, but it's better than wading through umpteen pages of contents to find the same chapter (using automated TOC generation), and it's a little more horsing around to get it all to work for me, but that's ok.

So far, every attempt to build a similarly-structured book with the current generation of epub-making software has been less than satisfactory. At least, for my meager understanding of how to do it. It seems to require a lot more horsing around, and (gak) hand-coding of html, which I've successfully been able to avoid so far, being all lazy and all as I am. Comes from using iSilo back in the day - now THAT was easy to make a book for.

I see references here of things like "oh yes, just manipulate the OPF", but haven't grokked how to put it all together. I guess I still haven't seen the "ooh---aahhh" of Epub yet. Digital Editions doesn't impress me - if I've got hypertext linkings in a book, say for a footnote: where did they put the [ back ] button?


-bjc
Charter Member,
Deceased Equine Abuse Society

kovidgoyal
10-03-2008, 02:54 AM
If you have a html file that links to all other files, just pass that file to html2epub and you're done.

brewt
10-03-2008, 10:28 AM
If you have a html file that links to all other files, just pass that file to html2epub and you're done.

Roger that - I get an epub with just the toc in it. So I've built my toc wrong? (I'll include it when I can get to where I can conjure up an example...)

[Edit] oohhh-----aaahhhhh I got it to work! Yer, the Man, Kovid! Example included, with Mobi, Isilo, and Epub output. (turned out my original toc was bad).

:thanks::thanks::thanks::thanks::thanks::thanks:

Still don't like DE. Is the sony epub-ification better (as in, worlds)?

Funny. When I open the epub in FbReader, all I get is the TOC, and it crashes shortly after.


-bjc

kovidgoyal
10-03-2008, 12:01 PM
No you should get an epub with a TOC and all the linked files :) Are the links correct? i.e. say if you open that file in a browser and click the links, do they take you to the other files?

brewt
10-03-2008, 12:12 PM
See one-two messages up - got it to work.

Does my example epub work in a sony ok? Could I trouble someone to check?

-bjc

JeffElkins
10-03-2008, 01:32 PM
See one-two messages up - got it to work.

Does my example epub work in a sony ok? Could I trouble someone to check?

-bjc

Cotton_Patch.epub does not work here. It sticks on a blank page 1 of 20 and freezes there. Entering a page #2 does not work either. I'll give it another three minutes and force a reboot.

JeffElkins
10-03-2008, 01:35 PM
Cotton_Patch.epub does not work here. It sticks on a blank page 1 of 20 and freezes there. Forcing a jump to page #2 does not work either. I'll give it another three minutes and force a reboot.

Forced reboot.

brewt
10-03-2008, 02:04 PM
Now, I saw that blanky-pagey-thingy in Digital Editions, and assumed it was 'cause I didn't specify any metadata through html2epub. that's also where fbreader crashed.

Mr. Goyle?

-bjc
boo-frickety-hoo.
Dr Evil

brewt
10-06-2008, 01:03 PM
Hmmmm.

If I specify a Cover image (jpg) through the command line, it'll populate that first page in Digital Editions - I've attached the epub - Jeff, Could I trouble you (or someone) to try again to load this into a Sony?

DE still does not page down from the cover to the first page - I HAVE to use the Toc on the left to navigate beyond the cover. If I do, I can the curse back UP to the cover, but then still can't get back to the text.

Being Sony-less, I can't tell how to get to the TOC on the sony.

If I use the calibre GUI, and attempt to add a cover, I get a little traceback:

gui_title
Detailed traceback:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "calibre\gui2\dialogs\epub.pyo", line 90, in select_cover
AttributeError: gui_title

(Calibre 0.4.91)

Obviously, I'm still doing lots of things wrong - more thoughts?

-bjc

kovidgoyal
10-06-2008, 01:17 PM
The GUI cover adding bug will be fixed in the next release.

brewt
10-06-2008, 08:11 PM
Ok, so now this is starting to get interesting.

I found Cool Reader at SourceForge:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/crengine/

Claims to open epubs.

When I try to open any of the epubs I've made so far with it, it says:

ERROR: Error Reading Epub Format.

So I try to open the toc html file with it, and it says:

No Title

with some garbage further on.

Hmm. So I open my TOC in DreamWeaver, and clean up Word Code HTML, File, and rebuild the epub using command-line-Calibre.

Now the epub opens in DE (still doesn't open in Cool Reader) to the first page of the toc, (not a blank page) but only the root level, not showing the sub-directories files. The TOC is intact off to the left, and I can page down to start reading. But the 2nd level of the Toc isn't there on the page.

Obviously, the culprit seems to be Word-Processed TOCs made by SiteMap Creator.

I've attached the latest generation of the epub, for the Sony-tryers out there.

Just wait'll I get off on a tangent on Styles in DE.

-bjc
Part Bloodhound, Part Buffoon, Part Boo-ya.

kovidgoyal
10-06-2008, 08:23 PM
i hope you've upgraded to calibre 0.4.92 it has various epub related fixes.

brewt
10-07-2008, 11:31 AM
By George, now we're gettin' somewhere! calibre 0.4.92 built an epub through the gui, added a cover image, working toc, working hyperlinks, fairly decent rendition of the styles (but some of that may be DE that I'm seeing as weird - the <Title> style isn't quite what I was expecting). Fabulous Work, Mr. Goyle. :2thumbsup

Attached is the latest-generation epub example, and it works in Digital Editions! Still doesn't load into Cool Reader, and now my fbreader is hopelessly hosed (the app won't even launch). So, we can conveniently say THOSE other apps have issues until proven otherwise.

Can I re-trouble-again someone to load the attached epub into a Sony? (should be better now).

Oh, and has anyone written a css to handle the placements of the page numbers in DE?

-bjc

kovidgoyal
10-07-2008, 12:53 PM
Note that calibre doesn't change CSS information, except for font sizes and line-heights, where it rescales everything. And the name if Goyal, not Goyle :)

brewt
10-07-2008, 03:18 PM
:smack: Typopologies, sir. :smack:

So, if we expect the epub to be read in DE, we need to set a right margin that allows for the page numbers - anyway to have a javascript to detect the reader and reset it back for other non-adobe-readers?

-bjc

kovidgoyal
10-07-2008, 04:47 PM
I dont know of any epub reader that actually executes javascript except, perhaps openberg lector

Dave Berk
10-07-2008, 05:10 PM
Supporting Javascript is part of the epub spec?

kovidgoyal
10-07-2008, 05:25 PM
IIRC, no.

brewt
10-07-2008, 06:55 PM
Openberg Lector 5 doesn't load into Firefox 3, and the openberg sourceforge page is being revamped with WordPress, so it seems to be offline at the moment.

-bjc

Dave Berk
10-07-2008, 07:53 PM
IIRC, no.
Thanks.

WillAdams
10-08-2008, 11:12 AM
What do your stylesheets look like?

If everything is styled as Normal but dressed up w/ local formatting the local formatting will be discarded --- that seems to be what's happening.

In order to get epub to work properly _everything_ must be styled using character and paragraph styles in a suitable hierarchy.

William

brewt
10-08-2008, 02:32 PM
I have noticed that when I make an Epub out of InDesign, the formatting seems to be that of the original source document, and nothing I've done (yet) in inDesign effects the epub. I probably don't have somehting set up good in InDesign.

Message #29 of this thread has an attachment that has all my source. The epub in that zip is bad - Message #39 of this thread has the latest-generation build out of Calibre that I would deem successful.

Epub generation out of InDesign with THAT as the source file group is all still wrong - just the TOC shows up, no links, no nothing.

Not willing to give up on it JUST yet, I:
A) Built an InDesign Book (which is just a container for InDesign Documents)
B) Converted my html source back to Word Docs, in order to:
C) Place the Word Docs in InDesign Documents, 1 .doc per book per document. Ended up with 4 IdCs3 documents (Toc, Philemon, 1st Peter, 2nd Peter) in the InDesign Book.
D) Hmmm. Cross-Media Exporting to Epub is not available for InDesign Books - only InDesign Documents. So if you can't get it all into 1 InDesign Document, IDcs3 cannot export it to Epub - it can only print it. (Kinda like Quark, so the "book" metaphor in both programs are print-only constructs).
E) So I exported a Postscript file of the IDcs3 book, Distilled a PDF, used Any2epub from calibre to make an epub from that pdf (attached here for a laugh) - no hyperlinks, no space between books or chapter, no working toc. The Comments/Footnotes evaporated, too.
F) The PDF doesn't have working hyperlinks either - If I think about it long enough, I might be able to get that to work there.

So, InDesign is still beyond my best understanding for making Epubs. Calibre seems to have worked (thanks to Mr. Goyal's continued efforts).


As far as styles go, I built the original documents in Microsoft Word, and used standard Styles in word - Title, Heading 1, Normal, Emphasis, etc. Saved as Html-Filtered.

Word embeds the style calls into the html itself, so it's kinda like a css, but not quite. If were truly clever, I would build a set of css's to do what I want to mimick the Word styles I'm interested in, and then try again. Thing is, I'm wanting to do tricks I'm having trouble getting Word to accomplish - and I don't feel ready to make the leap to DreamWeaver yet (just too many handy things in Word, like spell checker, grammer checker, macros, etc for me to chuck it)

-bjc

brewt
10-13-2008, 06:55 PM
As if there wasn't enough dead-horse-beating going on around here.....

Ok, so I figured out how to export a multi-document epub from InDesign (it IS in the "book" part of IdCs3 - an "I-didn't-know-it-was-there" menu).

Still wrecks the Word-built sub-tocs in the individual documents - they are now referring off to the original html source. Another thing to figure out in ID.

It does create a toc - of a sort. I don't personally feel like I'm in complete control yet, but it's getting a little better. Yet another epub attached.

So, this leads me off to other obvious huntings on epub creation. I found these at Adobe:

Digital Publishing Center:
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/digitalpublishing/

Creating Epubs with InDesign:
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/indesign-epub.html

Best Practices:
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/digitalpublishing/epubs/EPUBBestPractices-1_0_3.epub

Authoring:
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/authoring/

Of course, before I can get CS3 to work, they want me to upgrade to CS4:
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/

The 300k chunk size limitation comes up regularly, and Adobe seems to think the limitation has to do with Sony Readers. True?

-bjc

DaleDe
10-13-2008, 07:29 PM
As if there wasn't enough dead-horse-beating going on around here.....


The 300k chunk size limitation comes up regularly, and Adobe seems to think the limitation has to do with Sony Readers. True?

-bjc

Well sort of true. They actually say the limit is for portable devices and Sony is certainly one of those. The reader extracts the xhtml file from the container in some fashion and loads it into memory. This is so pagination can be accomplished on the file. I believe the real limit is likely the 100K or so compressed size of the file since it is likely they use it compressed. The Sony 505 has 256K of memory I believe but leaves about 190K for the user. They may be sneaking a bit of user memory for this task or using cache on a memory device but I am not sure. In any event the Sony will choke if the file is too big.

Dale

wallcraft
10-13-2008, 09:06 PM
The Sony 505 has 256K of memory I believe but leaves about 190K for the user. The Sony has 256 MB of flash memory for file storage, but the memory that matters here is RAM and the Sony apparently has 64MB of RAM. This is way more than the 300KB text limit, even allowing for the Operating System's use of memory. For comparison, FBReader always reads the entire ebook into memory and it tends to hang on 5-10 MB CHM files when there is only 64MB of memory, but not on any smaller files. FBReader does not handle CSS and this may make a significant difference, but 300KB is a tiny limit for modern hardware and indicates that Adobe DE is a memory hog.

brewt
10-15-2008, 08:10 PM
Damn wall is winning.

Ok, so now this is making even less sense to me than before.

IF we were to try to use InDesign to build an Epub (which the Adobe forums says is the right thing to do - gotta think about the deals with Sony, etc), you can.

However, one of the features of epub is Css with Xhtml. In fact, were you to rename you .epub to .zip you could extract it and see the html files and the css files and the fonts you embedded.

Except you cannot import those things onto an InDesign Document. You have to import/place a Word Document (or InCopy). So all the cool tricks you can do with Css is lost in InDesign, 'cause it don't see it so good - word strips it out when saving a a Word Doc. And I can't see where to import a css into indesign, because, well, it would ignore it any way because it's using Word Styles. So you have to build the styles into InDesign. Except, they are over-ridden when importing a Word Document by the Word styles, which are then ignored when exported as an epub because they aren't css styles.

So you get a plain epub with nothing cool in it.


Sooooo.... back to Calibre (0.4.95).....if I build an html file in Word, and convert the Word Styles to a .css file and remove the word styles from the html file, I then have to hand-relink it back in Calibre or I get a blank epub - the html is there, but it needs the .css to display.

It seems that font embedding isn't in Calibre (yet) - as the indesign seems to sometimes have (even though my font du jour SAYS it can be embedded, ID is not including it in the package today - 'nother myst'ry), but it really doesn't matter since there seems to be almost no style control in InDesign in the output epub. That at least I have any skill in exerting. It still keeps going back to the source Word doc, if you tell it to NOT export css style names only (guess that makes some sense). otherwise it strips the styles.


Is font embedment/css something to look for in calibre? Or do I just once again not know how?

-bjc


baffled-y-er and baffled-y-er




ooop - forgot the attachment. Word Document, what I'm seeing in Indesign, and the epub. 3 different critters, if you ask me.

kovidgoyal
10-15-2008, 08:28 PM
font embedding is on my todo list

wallcraft
10-15-2008, 08:41 PM
back to Calibre (0.4.95).....if I build an html file in Word, and convert the Word Styles to a .css file and remove the word styles from the html file, I then have to hand-relink it back in Calibre I have not used it, but if you are familiar with Word then BookCreator Tool v2.0 (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28313) (actually now v2.51) is worth checking out. If it is missing some features you want for making ePubs, then =X= may be able to add them for you.

brewt
10-16-2008, 12:16 PM
Yes, thanks, I've whirled up Book Creator. It is very nice. I've got my own macros that do basically the same thing with regard to formatting. Using it to make output seems to limited (at least me) to single-document books, and I'm finding myself happier with multi-doc books.

Also, he has the macros locked down, so I can't modify them directly, and end up needing to re-modify the pages to what I want them to look like. Not that what he has built in is bad, it's just not what I'm working toward.

Back to css in epub: is there a mechanism to change the css used on the fly in the reader? (It doesn't look like there is). So that means that the css is really only used to consistify the appearance of what you make from book to book, not change the whole look-and-feel of the book while you are reading it. Too bad. I might feel a need to read Jane Austen in a handwriting font one day, Garamond the next.

Also: someone (Kovid?) mentioned something about page turn speed in epub. I've noticed that SOME of the epubs I've been experimenting with seem to take a bloody long time to open in DE. Is anyone seeing this on a Reader? Might be a deal-killer: if it takes for-frickin-ever to open a book and turn the page in epub, 'cause of design flaws in the book or the reading software, it becomes even closer to not desirable.

-bjc

"I want, I want, I want, me, me, me, now, now, now."
Captain Hook.

yekim54
10-16-2008, 12:52 PM
I've noticed that SOME of the epubs I've been experimenting with seem to take a bloody long time to open in DE. Is anyone seeing this on a Reader? Might be a deal-killer: if it takes for-frickin-ever to open a book and turn the page in epub, 'cause of design flaws in the book or the reading software, it becomes even closer to not desirable.
So far I have only tried loading one ePUB book onto my Sony Reader and I experienced the same slow page turns that you have mentioned. Page turns were normal speed for the LRF version of the same book.

astra
10-16-2008, 01:00 PM
So far I have only tried loading one ePUB book onto my Sony Reader and I experienced the same slow page turns that you have mentioned. Page turns were normal speed for the LRF version of the same book.

I gave up on epub after that

kovidgoyal
10-16-2008, 01:55 PM
Back to css in epub: is there a mechanism to change the css used on the fly in the reader? (It doesn't look like there is).

Also: someone (Kovid?) mentioned something about page turn speed in epub.

Adobe DE doesn't have user adjustable CSS, but the epub reader i'm developing will. Page turn speed in epub is fine within a flow (a single html file) but becomes slow when trasitioning from one HTML file to the next.

brewt
10-16-2008, 03:02 PM
Kovid:
Have I said "yer d' man" often enough? I think not. Developing an epub reader? Woo Hoo!

:chinscratch:.....If I could only convince you of a Windows Mobile 5 port......


-bjc

kovidgoyal
10-16-2008, 03:07 PM
I dont do device ports, but all the code is open source, so there's nothing preventing someone from porting the reader if they want to.

See http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30639

astra
10-16-2008, 04:10 PM
Page turn speed in epub is fine within a flow (a single html file) but becomes slow when trasitioning from one HTML file to the next.

Maybe I am mixing different things, so I apologize beforehand.
Is not this becomes slow when trasitioning from one HTML file to the next pose a problem? Because of Sony reader? or DE? limitation of some blocks 300kb and forced a book to be divided?

kovidgoyal
10-16-2008, 04:32 PM
Maybe I am mixing different things, so I apologize beforehand.
Is not this pose a problem? Because of Sony reader? or DE? limitation of some blocks 300kb and forced a book to be divided?

Not really since there are typically only a handful of such divisions, so you don't really notice when reading.

DaleDe
10-16-2008, 06:37 PM
Not really since there are typically only a handful of such divisions, so you don't really notice when reading.

yes, those are typically between chapters anyway and good eBook formatting would generally have a page break between chapters.

Dale

astra
10-17-2008, 05:42 AM
Well, guys, I don't know. I have already mentioned it before. I dowloaded The Count of Monte Cristo from feebooks. Opening TOC or changing text size were significantly slower than LRF. I would even get this circle with rotating arrows, so slow was the process. My LRF files of similar size don't have this problem.

=X=
10-17-2008, 05:30 PM
Also, he has the macros locked down, so I can't modify them directly, and end up needing to re-modify the pages to what I want them to look like. Not that what he has built in is bad, it's just not what I'm working toward.


Locked? This is not by design, I have no desire to hide the source. I was not even aware there was a way to lock the Macros. Is there a way to unlock them?

Right what I have build really was suited for my taste. Often enough all one has to do is change the styles to get ones look feel. What are you trying to change?


=X=

ProDigit
10-20-2008, 01:58 AM
one thing I've noticed is that epub seems much larger in filesize than any other format (if Sony's format = about 100kb, epub=about 150 per book).
Why can't it be compressed zip (or even rar) as well?

Also, is it true reading from a compressed format takes the reader longer than reading from uncompressed data like txt or .doc or .html?

Alfy
10-30-2008, 07:22 AM
I've been playing with inDesign export to epub option as well, and it's a complete mess. One small question: does the epub format have the ability to produce justified text? Because not only can't I get my own texts to be justified, but the few epub books I've purchased (from Amazone) aren't justified either...

Alfy
10-30-2008, 07:34 AM
Sorry, got the answer to my own question from feednooks:
Lack of justified text: While we can display advanced ePub files on the PRS-505, with embedded fonts, CSS, SVG and even XSL-FO, Adobe doesn’t provide any sort of support for justified text yet. Justification and hyphenation are the two main reasons why I’m still using PDF files on my device. Sure, it should be fairly easy to add support for justified text in the future, but it doesn’t make any sense to support something as advanced as XSL-FO first.

Honestly, that's very poor. I don't see myself using epub until justified text is sorted out...

DaleDe
10-30-2008, 12:33 PM
Sorry, got the answer to my own question from feednooks:
Lack of justified text: While we can display advanced ePub files on the PRS-505, with embedded fonts, CSS, SVG and even XSL-FO, Adobe doesnít provide any sort of support for justified text yet. Justification and hyphenation are the two main reasons why Iím still using PDF files on my device. Sure, it should be fairly easy to add support for justified text in the future, but it doesnít make any sense to support something as advanced as XSL-FO first.

Honestly, that's very poor. I don't see myself using epub until justified text is sorted out...

This is not an ePUB issue but an Adobe one. ePUB uses CSS and justified text is certainly available in CSS. Of course as a preference item that could be turned on and off by the user justification would have to be a setting in the reading software not the format.

Dale

brewt
10-31-2008, 11:25 AM
As of right now, Calibre is a better epub building tool than InDesign. <plug>

Sure, you can try to justify the expense of CS3/4 and invoke apologetics for its shortcomings as all being user error and user misunderstanding of how to do it, but the truth is, that Adobe's first-run implementation of epub creation is non-intuitive, clumsy, and frustrating. Not altogether different from Quark's first run with .lit creation, which never got better.

When the make-a-gazillion-dollars-with-ebooks awareness gets higher up onto Adobe's (or Quark's) radar, things might get better. Until then, us lesser mortals will find better solutions, like.......(shall I say it again?).........

-bjc

Hadrien
10-31-2008, 11:36 AM
As of right now, Calibre is a better epub building tool than InDesign. <plug>

Sure, you can try to justify the expense of CS3/4 and invoke apologetics for its shortcomings as all being user error and user misunderstanding of how to do it, but the truth is, that Adobe's first-run implementation of epub creation is non-intuitive, clumsy, and frustrating. Not altogether different from Quark's first run with .lit creation, which never got better.

When the make-a-gazillion-dollars-with-ebooks awareness gets higher up onto Adobe's (or Quark's) radar, things might get better. Until then, us lesser mortals will find better solutions, like.......(shall I say it again?).........

-bjc

It's fairly easy to create ePub files with Feedbooks too: http://www.feedbooks.com/help/publishing

Take a look at this book for example, that an author submitted yesterday: http://www.feedbooks.com/userbook/1900.epub

LesleyBrown
11-10-2008, 08:08 AM
Hi guys, I've found this thread so useful in the past few weeks while trying to put our Indesign CS3 into use for epubs. Everything seems to be fine, but I've gotten snagged on one thing - I've created paragraph and character styles as the good people at adobe say must be done

http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/indesign-epub.html

but I'm loosing character styles after exporting to epub - for instance, italicised words are lost. It seems like it won't recognise a character style layered upon a paragraph style. Am I missing a stage in the process or is there an exporting option I need to tick somewhere?

Thanks for any pointers.:thanks:

brewt
11-13-2008, 05:43 PM
CS3 exports into Epub what was in the base imported document for styles. If you didn't import anything, it strips pretty much any indesign-invoked styling right out.

CS4 does have a coupla options when exporting epubs over CS3 - it's on the main menu instead of a submenu, and there's an additional button now for CSS Styles:
Base for CSS Styles
1) Local Formatting
2) Defined Styles
3) Style Names only

The [ Defined Styles ] is a step in the right direction. Not all style parameters seem to get exported when using defined styles - despite the xhtml file being exported having a <justify> tag, everything seems to be flush left in DE. Haven't figured that one out, yet.

The Epub from CS4 is being reported by Calibre's Epub viewer as having DRM, (and therefore doesn't open) but I can't find where that happens in CS4 yet.

Oh, also, theres a
Format for EPUB Content
1) XHTML
2) DTBook
set of output options now, too. For whatever that does.

It still seems mostly not-quite-intuitive with CS$ (oops, 4), and I've had nowhere near enough time to play with it yet.


Big Quote from the Big House itself:

"InDesign CS4: EPUB export with NIMAS-ready DAISY XML

We squeezed EPUB export into InDesign CS3 before the final IDPF standard was approved, when even the name of the format was still in doubt ( thus the feature name: "Export for Digital Editions"). The just-released InDesign CS4 takes EPUB support to a whole new level, adding embedded font support and TOC generation (which we had made available as a separate update after CS3 shipped), as well as floating anchored images, option to emit CSS for local (non-style-driven) formatting, and improved mapping of TOC structure to XHTML heading levels. But the biggest feature by far is the new option to choose DTBook (aka DAISY XML) content within EPUBs, compatible with the NIMAS standard that has been mandated in the U.S. for providing access to K-12 instructional materials for the visually impaired. Our lead tools developer writes about the new features here, in our digital publishing tech blog. A very important next step on the client SW side is enabling "screen reader" support for DRM-protected eBooks, something we are committed to doing ASAP."

(from http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2008/10/indesign_cs4_ep.html )

(And another maybe-relevant link: http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/2008/10/export_epub_from_indesign_cs4.html#more )


-bjc

igorsk
11-13-2008, 05:50 PM
Not all style parameters seem to get exported when using defined styles - despite the xhtml file being exported having a <justify> tag, everything seems to be flush left in DE. Haven't figured that one out, yet.
This is a limitation of the viewer, not format. Hopefully Adobe implements full justification at some point.

LesleyBrown
11-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Right Brewt, I'll go back to the Word doc and make sure the paragraph and character styles are properly set up there, thanks for the pointer.
That seems to be the trick. Now I'm just picturing all the book files that have already been formatted in Indesign, going back to Word and trawling through does not inspire me that much!
And now on a completely different topic - can anyone point me in the direction of a thread about creating cover images in epub? I'm off to look through the threads...

Had been wondering what exactly CS4 was offering and whether it is really worth upgrading, so that's all good to know too.

brewt
11-20-2008, 01:17 AM
Yeah, it seemed outright stooopid to me, to have to create a real Word document to import into Indesign to get the styles in the epub to do anything at all, just to have indesign attempt to work with css and xhtml on the export - why couldn't I import the html with css to start with? bleah.

The limitations for the epub export css seem to be limited to what one can build in Word - Word styles have their own limitations that css can't break. So again, all the cool things one can do in Indesign is for naught.

I haven't even gone back to embedding images in text - my first stab was grim.

Maybe after the holidays (gad - that long?) I'll get some time to throw at this.....

-bjc

LesleyBrown
11-20-2008, 05:36 AM
I did manage to include an image in the text through Object-insert anchored object or some similar, but I keep coming across references on threads on adobe that the book cover image is automatically made from whatever is the first page of the doc. That's not how it's looking for me - when I open Digitial Editions it's just a plain, grey book image. Where does one load the image in the exporting process???

And yes, it's only just sinking in about the extra work and processes that will be needed if we will have to go back to word docs, I'm not at all technically minded but I would have thought that any styles etc you introduce in indesign would supercede those in Word. Ah well...

Alfy
11-21-2008, 06:12 AM
Honestly, when you're getting at that level of complexity, would it not be easier to create a PDF adapted to the size of your ebook? I know it's not the point, but it'll be faster...

brewt
11-21-2008, 11:38 AM
Unfortunately, reading an elaborately-formatted pdf on the diminutive screen I get to look at (HP/IPAQ4700 - glorious as it is), is a crappy reading experience - the pdf viewer from Adobe on Pocket PC, while it "can" reflow, it relows the whole document at every page turn. Takes for-frickin-ever on a large document.

While Mobi seems ok, Isilo is really the best reading utensil on Pocket PC.

Since I got my dad the Kindle, I've had to settle for Mobi. So we could both read stuff.

Epub promises better formatting options that html3.2 (mobi), though it took me a while to see some of the features of it - css would be a good thing. (anybody figture out how to user user-dicated css's on a Sony yet?)

The viewers for epub seem to fall generally short these days (calibre excepted) and there's nothing for Pocket PC, though I'm trying to encourage uBook to take it on.

If I can wrangle epub to do things I want it to, I'd pop for a Sony. If If If - if the epub viewer is the Sony is good, and I don't have to recompensate for everything again. If one could trigger the mp3 player on the Sony, that would also be cool - have it play the musical examples in a Music History textbook, for example.

-bjc

LesleyBrown
12-18-2008, 07:34 AM
So, I've been using a trial version of Indesign CS4 to see what advantages there are and it's struck me as a bit hit and miss, some of the local formatting does convert through and in other cases it doesn't. And of course, justification still flies over it's head.

Anyway, plowing on I've been putting together a proper book and all the individual chapters are exporting to epub fine, but I've just got to about 7 chapters on my Indesign 'Book' and in the resulting epub there are chunks of text missing. I'll navigate to chapter 4 and there will be a blank page and then it starts halfway through, or the last paragraph in another case. Individually these chapters are all appearing fine in epub. I've unzipped the book in case I had horrendously large files, but the largest is 32KB - still way within the 300KB chapter limit - right?

Any pointers? I'm going to start a fresh 'book' and see if it the other got corrupted somehow when I was assembling it...

brewt
12-19-2008, 02:07 PM
Hmmm. Unfortunately, "push the left button instead of the right" isn't going to fix this one. We'll have to tear things apart, back to the source level.

In the original files you imported - (I'm assuming Word here), be sure that the styles don't have the [ Page Break before ] paragraph checky boxy checked where you don't want it to - not on line separator styles, or normal or bodytext styles, etc.

I've noticed that Heading Styles take on [ Page Break Before ] in the reading software, even when I've specified it to not do that in the base file. Makes me have to rethink some emphasis style ideas, away from Heading styles (H1, H2, H6, etc).

In your blank space (I'm assuming Digital Editions) can you select where the text should be? If it looks like lines and paragraphs, then something could be goofy with the coloring of your styles - the base coloring of the text and background should be [ default ] or [ none ] with additional colors layered on top of that - I don't know what something that was originally reversed and then recolored back to black-on-white would do in an epub - it might ignore parts of the recoloring....I've seen that happen in mobi.

When you were creating the original files - did you import them from html into word? Multiple <html> tags embedded into the word doc will cause the building apparatus to think it's done with a section - Save Chapter 4 as html from word and open in a text editor and a browser and poke around for weirdnesses.

When you unzipped the epub - again, open the xhtml's in a text editor and look for multiple <html> tags. Also - can you see your missing text in the xhtml file? (could be some kind of failure of ID4 to convert their styles to css).

And as long as you've got the epub unziped, does opening the chapters in a browser give you a different result? And does the css work?

As far as the justification problem goes, that's a function of Adobe Digital Editions - they ignore the the <justify> tag so they can put their page numbers where they want them - in the middle of the "page" on the right. If it was fully justified, your text would run into it all the time, instead of just some of the time. Adobe needs to move (or remove) their page numbers to get Justify to be workable in DE.

I'm beginning to think that the "300k limit" is more a neccesitated function of the reading software, and not the base book. Has to do with how much of the book will be repaginated at hyperlinks and page turns, etc. I've built some test epubs with truly large base (1-2 megs) xhtmls in the output that seem to work ok - unless I've just delusioned myself again. The splits that come out of Calibre don't seem to wall themselves up at 300K - I guess I don't understand it very well.

Also: did you try font embedding? If you did that with a font that won't embed, it might not know what to do when it hits that point - might make it blank.

-bjc

mtravellerh
12-20-2008, 03:05 PM
Does FBReader not support ePub? The website says OEB format... is that ePub?

If not I'm surprised it is not on their roadmap.

BOb

FBReader does indeed support epub, though not very well

LesleyBrown
12-22-2008, 11:36 AM
Hi Brewt - thanks for the pointers. The trouble is that this book already exists as a printed book and all the corrections have been taken in in Indesign - so I'm hoping very much that I won't have to take it all the way back to Word.

Yup - only reading in Digital Editions thus far and I'm able to navigate to where the missing text should be on the lefthand navigation pane (I started a fresh 'book' and have now encountered this same problem further on chapter-wise). It's just an empty, blank page. When I've got it unzipped it seems to have some bulk but opening in a browser again it's blank.

I have had a true type font fail to embed previously, and there was a substitute put in its place. I found it as an open type version and that has worked no problem - is that a general rule of thumb - open types will work better?

brewt
12-22-2008, 01:44 PM
I've been planning to throw some time at Indesign after the holidays - I'll try a big-honking font embedding test then (I've got fontfolio8 and fontfolio11 to try). I've had spotty hits and misses so far with font embedding - sometimes open types work better than truetypes, sometimes not. I think it has to do with the licensing embedded in the individual fonts, and I just haven't worked out the specifics of how it works.

Having Microsoft's font Properties Extension http://www.microsoft.com/typography/TrueTypeProperty21.mspx helps discern things - until you hit a type 1 font. Doesn't offer so much info on those. (Are you using a Mac or aPC - I've forgotten).

I've run across some weird output formatting in Calibre, too - carriage returns and style changes that are not in the source, etc. I haven't been able to replicate it yet, so I'm not sure what I'm looking at.

Maybe the real questions are about 2-fold problems:
1) Problems specific to the epub reading software
2) Problems specific to the epub generation software.

I'm finding that problematic epubs behave very differently in different reading softwares. I can't get fpreader to run at all on my computer anymore, the reader for opera won't open anything I can throw at it, calibre's won't open output from indesign, and DE is just plain weird - chapter headings need to be really short, or the TOC doesn't work right, for example.

For being a "standard", the implementations (of both generation and reading softwares) seem to be catering to specific developer's stances, and universality is still a ways away.

Reminds me of Java.

-bjc

P.S., oh, uh, things to try:

I've found that editing in Indesign is hit-or-miss in the output. Seems that the source all pretty much needs to be perfected before importing into ID4 - you should be able to copy and paste your bad chapter back into word, and then re-export it as text, html, and doc's to see if anything shows up as weird. Tweak in Word, Then reimport from the word doc back into ID4.

Hope that helps.

LesleyBrown
02-13-2009, 12:43 PM
Just in case anyone else out there has encountered the same problem as me (missing chunks/chapters when exporting a book from indesign to epub) I've found a real life human being at adobe technical support and hope they'll be helpful. On an adobe forum I came across a guy who said he'd been told to remove certain plugins (no mention of which) which solved the problem but Tech support guy had never encountered it himself.

sladwig
04-13-2009, 12:29 PM
Brewt-
I am attempting to "evolve" from FrameMaker to Adobe InDesign --> epub and I'm just not enjoying this. You cannot anchor a graphic. I spent 3 days last week trying to make figures stay close to their text. Coolness is one thing, useful documentation is another. I'm a technical writer and I like pictures, pictures, pictures to get stuff through to users. Alas.

Does Adobe tell us much about this? I haven't seen it, only a blog or two from their InDesign expert. If I do find any helpful documentation I will let you know. But you are not alone!

Susan