I bought my iLiad V2 in July because it
1) was the only reader I could use for A4 pdfs
2) had a strong community and company support (but poor complaint handling)
3) was not restricted to proprietary file types
4) had just launced the Book edition and I expected that there would be some time until next product launch
5) it seemed like a very strong product

Now, I'm
1) waiting for a box to ship the thing to repairs because the buttons stopped working
2) am incredibly disappointed by the sudden launch of a successor (likely to kill the iLiad community - fearing I will never have a fully working djvu reader) and abrubt halt of iLiad features that were promised - comments from iRex employees have been floating around for long about e.g. a new, streamlined reader.

All in all, I am stuck with a reader that I would never have bought if I would have been informed a mere 3 months prior to launch of its successor - I would have waited and both the successor instead!

Irex, you have to understand that you DO NOT launch successors to a very expensive prototype without giving a notice in advance - unless, of course, you have a replacement policy ready.

I feel ripped off. And I just don't buy the 'complementary' product line comments - to me they're 100% substitutes.

And I just don't buy the 'complementary' product line comments - to me they're 100% substitutes. I agree. What does the iLiad do (using iRex software) that the DR does not also do?

Irex, you have to understand that you DO NOT launch successors to a very expensive prototype without giving a notice in advance - unless, of course, you have a replacement policy ready.
I think that may be a bit unfair to iRex. Devices have successors come out all the time, almost never with any warning -- new types of products doubly so.

The iLiad has been out for almost two and a half years, it's not all that shocking that they've been working on something during that time. The only other model they've brought out is the iLiad without wireless: a step down. I'd remark about the hazards of being on the "bleeding edge," but after 27 months it seems to me that the blood's pretty thoroughly dried on the iLiad. The farther you get from the fresh blood, the more likely a successor becomes in any given month, not less. :shrug:

Nobody says we have to like it, but it's not like it's some egregiously unique thing that only iRex is doing. :unafraid:

I agree to some extent, but there are three things that stand out:
1) Normally there some kind of communication a while on beforehand
2) This is a very premature product - the change between generation 1 and 2 is far greater than between 8 and 9 - and customer disappoinment will be much stronger
3) The biggest issue here is software support, for instance a way to use the wireless connection (currently pretty much useless), bookmarks, switch between documents etc.

It's not the hibernation, increased ram or bigger and better screen that annoys me - it's that I'm left with a premature product which should be improved quite a bit before/while moving on (this has also pretty much been promised from Irex)

2) am incredibly disappointed by the sudden launch of a successor (likely to kill the iLiad community - fearing I will never have a fully working djvu reader) and abrubt halt of iLiad features that were promised - comments from iRex employees have been floating around for long about e.g. a new, streamlined reader.


I personally don't think the DR1000 is a successor to the iLiad. I think they are two product lines that will continue. They have different markets.

Many think though that the iLiad will/should have a price drop, but it may not... even the book edition has the watcom tablet. There is no iLiad version that compares to the DR1000. Perhaps they will come out with a Book Edition lite?

iLiad Book Edition (8inch, Watcom) $599
DR1000S (10inch, Watcom) $749

So, for the same features you get a bigger screen for $150. Seems pretty in line actually.

iLiad V2 (8inch, Watcom, WiFi) $699
DR100SW (10inch, Watcom, WiFi/BT/3g) $849

So, I'll extrapolate that the 1000SW will also be $150 more than the V2. I think that is in line with the price estimates we've seen.

So... no. I don't think the DR line is a successor to the iLiad line, but an additional product line.

I think iRex's biggest problem is that the Book Edition competes with the Sony, Kindle, CyBook, BeBook, Astak which are all in the $300-$350 range (sony actually $250). If they want to compete here they will need to reduce the BE price or maybe come out with a 6inch screen or a DE without the Watcom part.

BOb

1) Normally there some kind of communication a while on beforehandEhm ... do you have an example of that sort of beforehand communication which you can share? I'm not coming up with any recollection of any such .... :headscratch:


2) This is a very premature product - the change between generation 1 and 2 is far greater than between 8 and 9 - and customer disappoinment will be much strongerWell it seems to me that whether it is premature or not is rather a matter of opinion.

Wait, are you saying the iLiad was premature, or that the DR1000 is premature? I'm not sure I'm following you, and I know you've lost me on the 1,2 -- 8,9 thing.


3) The biggest issue here is software support, for instance a way to use the wireless connection (currently pretty much useless), bookmarks, switch between documents etc.Again, on the iLiad or the DR1000? It's sounding like the DR1000 has those things (with the possible exception of bookmarks), how can adding them to the new model be a disappointment to customers?


It's not the hibernation, increased ram or bigger and better screen that annoys me - it's that I'm left with a premature product which should be improved quite a bit before/while moving on (this has also pretty much been promised from Irex)Oh, I see, you're saying that the iLiad was premature, in your estimation, and that the further software support that they've committed to (I haven't been following iLiads enough to know the details on what they've committed to, I'm afraid) hasn't materialized, and you're concerned it now won't do so.

Did I get that correctly?

Assuming I did so, then yeah, that's annoying, but again, not terribly surprising. The iLiad forum here is lousy with complaints that they haven't done this or that which they agreed to do. Again, I don't like it, but corporations sometimes don't keep their promises for various reasons, it's no shocker. And while they haven't kept them yet, they are saying that they plan to continue to support the iLiad for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I agree that they probably aren't foreseeing very far here. :rolleyes:

I personally don't think the DR1000 is a successor to the iLiad. I think they are two product lines that will continue. They have different markets.I see them as two separate lines also, pilotbob.

I think it's really easy to fall into the logical trap of viewing every device in terms of the purpose for which I want it. I.e. if I'm looking for a reading device, I tend to evaluate everything in terms of how suited it is for that purpose. Another example is the way Gizmodo sometimes seems to think everything should be a cell phone or a laptop, and deride devices for not matching those parameters.

It seems to be difficult for folks (and I firmly include myself here) to look at a device in terms of its actual features and consider what that feature set is aimed at.

In my view, the DR line is not at all aimed at casual reading. It's too big, it's too expensive, it's battery life is (maybe?) too short for that pursuit, and it has a lot of features (note taking, web browsing?, ppt support for crying out loud!) that are just so much bragware when I sit down to read a book. Sure it can read books, but so can my desktop PC. That doesn't make it a book reader any more than a quad-core pentium with a 30" monitor is a book reader.

I see the DR line as being aimed at being a professional device. It's suited for handling documents that are in a "standard" business size: Letter/A4. It supports reading and marking up those documents, it supports taking notes in meetings, it supports connecting back to a PC wirelessly to get the document I just realized I need in this meeting. Those aren't "reader" functions. In my view they really should call this thing the "Document Reader" rather than "Digital Reader" -- "digital" is so blatantly obvious as to be redundant, but "document" would tell you something about the device's intended purpose.

You could make some of the same arguments about the iLiad's suitability as a reading device, of course. I find the wireless and Wacom to be bragware for my reading purposes, they're better suited to a professional device. Strip out those features and leave the rest and I think you have a much better reading device ... well, it still needs better battery life. :whistle:

Another point: iRex has never made a secret that their primary aim is B2B, not consumer, and they really only sell directly to consumers because those consumers raised such a stink. In the earliest stages, they actually required a formal, written acknowledgment from individual customers that the device wasn't meant for consumer use, and was still in their estimation a beta device.

I see them as two separate lines also, pilotbob.



I did however find the following on their DR FAQ.

Q: Will iRex continue to support the iLiad with new firmware?
A: We will continue to support the iLiad but we have no immediate plans to add new functionalities.

Q: Will the iRex iLiad and iRex Digital Reader 1000 be sold together, or is the iLiad being phased out?
A: The iLiad series will be continued next to the iRex 1000 series, each of these series are addressing a different user group and both product ranges are part of our suite of e-reader products.

Q: Will any of the new software programs be back ported to the iLiad?
A: No, for this the iLiad and the DR1000 hardware infrastructure differ too much.


So, I think "no immediate plans to add new functionalities" is a mistake. They should be planning updates to this product if it is still being sold. Support for booksmarks in Mobi reader makes perfect sense. Also, support of the ePub format would be nice.

You can't say "we still sell the iLiad" and then basically say it is a "legacy" device. Legacy means to me not sold or updated any more but supported.

BOb

***Deleted double post***

Ehm ... do you have an example of that sort of beforehand communication which you can share? I'm not coming up with any recollection of any such .... :headscratch:

I'm referring to pretty much any trade show / industry conference open to public. It's not usual to show the product a week prior to launch.

Well it seems to me that whether it is premature or not is rather a matter of opinion.

Wait, are you saying the iLiad was premature, or that the DR1000 is premature? I'm not sure I'm following you, and I know you've lost me on the 1,2 -- 8,9 thing.

I meant that the change from the first to second generation of products is generally larger than from the eight to ninth. And iLiad --> DR is an example of the former.

Again, on the iLiad or the DR1000? It's sounding like the DR1000 has those things (with the possible exception of bookmarks), how can adding them to the new model be a disappointment to customers?

I'm saying that the wireless feature of the iLiad was useless (you can only do iLiad software updates), the audio output wasn't used etc. And the reader itself is poor - bookmarks and in-between document switching should be there. Any professional reviewer would say the same. It's an unfinished beta.

Oh, I see, you're saying that the iLiad was premature, in your estimation, and that the further software support that they've committed to (I haven't been following iLiads enough to know the details on what they've committed to, I'm afraid) hasn't materialized, and you're concerned it now won't do so.

The committed support has materialized in the form that they confirmed that they won't add further functionalities. Hence, it will remain an unfinished beta.

Did I get that correctly?

Assuming I did so, then yeah, that's annoying, but again, not terribly surprising. The iLiad forum here is lousy with complaints that they haven't done this or that which they agreed to do. Again, I don't like it, but corporations sometimes don't keep their promises for various reasons, it's no shocker. And while they haven't kept them yet, they are saying that they plan to continue to support the iLiad for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I agree that they probably aren't foreseeing very far here. :rolleyes:

Even though it may be no shocker, I'm in my full right to complain when things are unfair. They should dedicate some resources to fix the basic stuff for the iLiad and indicate launch earlier next time.

They are saying that they will support it, but not add further functionalities - which is what support of the iLiad requires apart from also fixing the ones that are broken. Hopefully, a proper release will come.

Sorry for the double post!

Q: Will iRex continue to support the iLiad with new firmware?
A: We will continue to support the iLiad but we have no immediate plans to add new functionalities.

This is different from what it said in this post:
"So we will continue to support the iLiad and yes there might be new firmware updates for the iLiad, however we do not plan to introduce new functionalities for the iLiad."
http://forum.irexnet.com/viewtopic.php?t=2854&start=15

Two alternatives:
1) There is hope after all
2) The FAQ contains a politician's way of saying what is stated in the post.

I see them as two separate lines also, pilotbob.

I think it's really easy to fall into the logical trap of viewing every device in terms of the purpose for which I want it. I.e. if I'm looking for a reading device, I tend to evaluate everything in terms of how suited it is for that purpose. Another example is the way Gizmodo sometimes seems to think everything should be a cell phone or a laptop, and deride devices for not matching those parameters.

It seems to be difficult for folks (and I firmly include myself here) to look at a device in terms of its actual features and consider what that feature set is aimed at.

In my view, the DR line is not at all aimed at casual reading. It's too big, it's too expensive, it's battery life is (maybe?) too short for that pursuit, and it has a lot of features (note taking, web browsing?, ppt support for crying out loud!) that are just so much bragware when I sit down to read a book. Sure it can read books, but so can my desktop PC. That doesn't make it a book reader any more than a quad-core pentium with a 30" monitor is a book reader.


The price is pretty much the same as the iLiad, and it is an (active) reading device.
Textbooks and anything else annotable is what I use my iLiad for, but when I bought it 6 months ago there was a fairly clear expectation of "future updates" on my behalf.

If I would've had the choice then between waiting 6 months and getting a device that was bigger (and had a chance of being updated) or not waiting and buying something that was pretty much EOL even then, both for exactly the same price..
Well, i'm sure you can guess where i'm going (I don't care about WiFi, only about the Wacom)

It feels rather like being duped, only there is no other company selling comparable products to turn to if you want to be pissed off about it, which is somewhat frustrating..

Sure, one can argue that it's meant for "business" only, but why would iRex want to artificially limit your market.. Academia is a fairly rich market too, considering their spending habits on other things.

If I would've had the choice then between waiting 6 months and getting a device that was bigger (and had a chance of being updated) or not waiting and buying something that was pretty much EOL even then, both for exactly the same price..
Well, i'm sure you can guess where i'm going

Well, that is probably the reason why they kept the device a secret before they had something ready to ship.
They did not want to see the usual drop in sales when a new future device/potential successor is announced. For a one product company this can be a big hit...

Nevertheless. I would fell a bit bad too if I had just bought an iLiad.

Q: Will iRex continue to support the iLiad with new firmware?
A: We will continue to support the iLiad but we have no immediate plans to add new functionalities.

So, I think "no immediate plans to add new functionalities" is a mistake. They should be planning updates to this product if it is still being sold. Support for booksmarks in Mobi reader makes perfect sense. Also, support of the ePub format would be nice.

You can't say "we still sell the iLiad" and then basically say it is a "legacy" device. Legacy means to me not sold or updated any more but supported.That could (and I stress could) be an example of poor translation, or they may have phrased it badly (you'd think in a written FAQ they'd be careful about phrasing though). They might mean to say that they aren't adding features, without meaning they don't intend to continue to develop existing features.

... Or they might be doing exactly as you're concerned they are.:rolleyes:



Ehm ... do you have an example of that sort of beforehand communication which you can share? I'm not coming up with any recollection of any such .... :headscratch:

I'm referring to pretty much any trade show / industry conference open to public. It's not usual to show the product a week prior to launch.Okay, can you give me a specific example?

I can give you a few specific counter examples:

Sony PRS500: we knew it was coming, but not when exactly, they didn't announce that until the actual day it went on sale.
Sony PRS505: we didn't know it was coming until the day it went on sale.
Kindle: despite the leaked FCC filing, we didn't know it was coming until the day it went on sale. In fact in the days right before launch there was heated debate here as to whether it even existed.
The iLiad Book version: again, no word until it was ready to go.
And of course the DR series.

Actually, iRex did tell us the V2 was coming ahead of time, so they've actually been more communicative than other players.

Well it seems to me that whether it is premature or not is rather a matter of opinion.

Wait, are you saying the iLiad was premature, or that the DR1000 is premature? I'm not sure I'm following you, and I know you've lost me on the 1,2 -- 8,9 thing.

I meant that the change from the first to second generation of products is generally larger than from the eight to ninth. And iLiad --> DR is an example of the former.Okay, I see what you're saying: that there ought to be a bigger jump between the iLiad and the DR series.

Okay, I agree that there is arguably not that much difference between them ... of course if there's not that big a jump, then there's not as much lost by having the iLiad vs. the DR.

On the other hand, viewing (as I do) the DR series as professional devices, the extra features that are just so much bragware for a reader are in themselves quite large improvements over the iLiad as a professional device. In my opinion, of course. :nice:


Again, on the iLiad or the DR1000? It's sounding like the DR1000 has those things (with the possible exception of bookmarks), how can adding them to the new model be a disappointment to customers?

I'm saying that the wireless feature of the iLiad was useless (you can only do iLiad software updates), the audio output wasn't used etc. And the reader itself is poor - bookmarks and in-between document switching should be there. Any professional reviewer would say the same. It's an unfinished beta.I'd agree with that myself, actually ... but that kinda goes along with iRex's B2B focus, doesn't it? They intended to sell the iLiad to other companies, for those companies to put their own software on them. The fact that that never really happened doesn't retroactively change the original intent of the device. :shrug:

I'd suggest that fiddling around with trying to meet individual customer needs took resources away from pursuing their original B2B plan, and certainly had some impact on its not coming to be, whether that was a deciding factor or not, I couldn't guess. :shrug:

Oh, I see, you're saying that the iLiad was premature, in your estimation, and that the further software support that they've committed to (I haven't been following iLiads enough to know the details on what they've committed to, I'm afraid) hasn't materialized, and you're concerned it now won't do so.

The committed support has materialized in the form that they confirmed that they won't add further functionalities. Hence, it will remain an unfinished beta.At the risk of sounding obnoxious (which I don't mean to do), I can only conclude that you felt that the iLiad was finished enough for your purposes, or you wouldn't have bought it. I don't think it's ever a good idea to buy things based on what might develop for them later.

I remember when my mother was looking at buying one of the first e-Macs: I recommended that she not do so because the only connectors on the fool thing were USB -- at the time there were no USB peripherals. As it turned out, USB peripherals have come to be (and how!), but there wasn't anything at that time except an expectation of them. Obviously Apple was willing to bet on them, but they didn't have all that great a track record at that time so I wasn't willing to suggest my mother place her bets with theirs. As it was, it took several years for things to settle out and prove the USB thing to be a good notion, and Apple had another model (or two?) out in the meantime.

Did I get that correctly?

Assuming I did so, then yeah, that's annoying, but again, not terribly surprising. The iLiad forum here is lousy with complaints that they haven't done this or that which they agreed to do. Again, I don't like it, but corporations sometimes don't keep their promises for various reasons, it's no shocker. And while they haven't kept them yet, they are saying that they plan to continue to support the iLiad for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I agree that they probably aren't foreseeing very far here. :rolleyes:

Even though it may be no shocker, I'm in my full right to complain when things are unfair. They should dedicate some resources to fix the basic stuff for the iLiad and indicate launch earlier next time.Absolutely you do!

I didn't mean to suggest that you didn't have that right! :no: And I apologize if I seemed to do so, it was not my intention at all.

Of course, I also have the right to express a different opinion of the situation, and we're having a healthy discussion of the situation as a result. :nice:

They are saying that they will support it, but not add further functionalities - which is what support of the iLiad requires apart from also fixing the ones that are broken. Hence, I won't call it support. Hopefully, a proper release will come.There's some room in their statement to improve the existing functions, but I think your doubts on that point are probably well founded. :sad:

I will say that if they really do intend to continue selling iLiads, they're going to have to demonstrate some genuine support for the line, otherwise folks will decide it's discontinued (in fact if not name), and stop buying them. :shrug:

I agree that it may seem smart but its only in the very short term. You will recover 95% of the sales 1/2 year later - probably at a higher price point and without disgruntled customers.

Sure, one can argue that it's meant for "business" only, but why would iRex want to artificially limit your market.. Academia is a fairly rich market too, considering their spending habits on other things.I imagine they'd consider Academia to be, if not a "business" environment, certainly a professional one, so they wouldn't be trying to edge them out at all. :shrug:




I also should add that I completely understand the feelings of being, as you put it, "duped." It's perfectly normal to feel that way, and I've been in the that position myself more than a few times myself. :yes:

I've just reached a point where I can be a bit philosophical about it because I've seen it happen enough times to more or less expect to be caught this way from time to time.

That doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to your feelings and reactions, just that I have a different view of such things, that's all. :shrug:

I agree that it may seem smart but its only in the very short term. You will recover 95% of the sales 1/2 year later - probably at a higher price point and without disgruntled customers.But in the meantime it can be hard to keep the lights on, which in many cases can mean that there will be no more sales at any price point. :shrug:

I doubt that, considering everyone has to pay iRex royalties for the display controllers.. OTOH, if a report on sub-standard customer care were to hit slashdot, iRex would be in far more trouble, i imagine. Potential future sales being as important as they are, and all.

considering everyone has to pay iRex royalties for the display controllers.

Really, who licenses their controller ? (Not doubting your word -Just curious)

to NatCh:
In term of trade shows, I was referring any gadget that has been previewed. Also, I don't mind initial launches (like kindle and sony500) coming out of nowhere as there is no installed base of customers to take care of.

The thing about Gen1-->2 - what I meant is that it is a lot worse to be left with a Gen1 production when Gen2 comes than to be left with Gen8 when Gen9, the reason being that Gen1 is often premature. Hence, customers will get very frustrated when suddenly Gen2 comes out of nowhere. For Gen9 to come out of nowhere, on the other hand, is fine because Gen8 probably is very good.

But I see your point, it may be that such generally products come out of nowhere - and even though I find it very frustrating - I can deal with it. Just as I can deal with not having hibernation etc.

The thing that I have strong issues with, however, is that suddenly the iLiad feels left dead cold. And I think that a lot of people purchasing the iLiad in the last 6 months feel the same.

Regarding iRex' B2B focus - I wasn't told anything about that when I shelled out 700€ for the iLiad. The day you start selling to customers, you can't defend yourself by afterwards claiming B2B focus.

Regarding the USB analogy: What I'm asking for in terms of support is to me the same as that nVidia should update the drivers to their graphics cards to make sure that bugs are ironed out. It's not much - and it should be the bare minimum.

All in all, I still love my iLiad but it's just not ready yet.

I doubt that, considering everyone has to pay iRex royalties for the display controllers....I believe you're mistaken on that point -- Philips (from which iRex spun off) has rights to develop and license e-Ink displays (I believe it may only be exclusive to Europe, not sure on that point). PVI (http://www.pvi.com.tw/en/index/index.php) (located in Taiwan) is the only maker of the displays, at present (including the ones iRex uses), with e-Ink Inc. (http://eink.com/) holding the patent on the displays themselves.

I don't see how iRex gets any royalties in that situation ....

The thing that I have strong issues with, however, is that suddenly the iLiad feels left dead cold. And I think that a lot of people purchasing the iLiad in the last 6 months feel the same.I'm sure they do, I've been there myself, not with an iLiad, but still. It feels pretty crummy, even if you do half expect it to happen. :shrug:

Regarding iRex' B2B focus - I wasn't told anything about that when I shelled out 700€ for the iLiad. The day you start selling to customers, you can't defend yourself by afterwards claiming B2B focus.Their B2B focus has been there since the beginning, way back in 2006. When they first allowed themselves to be arm-twisted into selling the iLiads to individuals in June of that year, they required a formal, written statement (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6933) that each buyer acknowledged that the device was still beta.

In the intervening time they haven't squawked all that much about the B2B side of things, but I think that's partly because they let all the individual consumers distract them from it, and they likely lost sight of the fact that folks who came to e-ink devices fresh in the meantime (as I'm guessing you did) wouldn't have any way to already know about their B2B thing.

I know that's doesn't keep it from being as frustrating as all get out, but at least it's an oversight rather than a deliberate deception. :shrug:

Regarding the USB analogy: What I'm asking for in terms of support is to me the same as that nVidia should update the drivers to their graphics cards to make sure that bugs are ironed out. It's not much - and it should be the bare minimum.I'd agree with you there completely -- if they're going to continue selling the iLiad, they ought to continue to improve the existing firmware for it, in as much as the hardware itself permits. That's always the kicker, isn't it? :sad:

All in all, I still love my iLiad but it's just not ready yet.I'm glad that you can still see the things that made you choose it in the first place. That's something, at least. :nice:

The P&L of iRex is none of my concern and whether they get royalties or not is uninteresting for me.

What I care about is that I bought a REALLY expensive piece of equipment with great potential but premature and a few months later the project seems to effectively get closed and a new project launches. So then I scream and stomp and shout to make them hear me - simply because it feels unfair.

The P&L of iRex is none of my concern and whether they get royalties or not is uninteresting for me.

What I care about is that I bought a REALLY expensive piece of equipment with great potential but premature and a few months later the project seems to effectively get closed and a new project launches. So then I scream and stomp and shout to make them hear me - simply because it feels unfair.I understand what you're getting at. :yes:

I think ppxnouse was trying to point out that if iRex had shut down because of a drop in sales due to a premature announcement, there would have been no further iLiad firmware improvements, no more iLiad repairs, and no new DR series at all.

However likely it was or wasn't in this particular case, doesn't necessarily dictate how the iRex marketing folks might have seen the situation, and they're the ones who get to make the call in such situations. :shrug:

I'm quite disturbed about the DR1000 FAQ, because even a couple of months ago iRex was still promising the new viewer that would support all formats, and I think some of the community developers have held back on spending a lot of effort on iPDF enhancements or creating a combination version because they believed iRex was going to come out with a new viewer.

I've had my iLiad for a year and a half, and I'm not sorry I have it, but I don't think iRex is treating iLiad customers very well here if they don't come out with further enhancements for the iLiad. There are still a lot of unkept promises, and I don't like to see them diving into a new product with those promises still out there.

I also note that they are promising better power management "later." We heard that promise plenty of times with the iLiad in the early days, before they finally admitted that their hardware design wouldn't support sleep or hibernate modes. I'd recommend being very cautious about buying a DR1000 assuming that the power management problems will be addressed. If the current functionality of the device will meet your needs, fine, but I wouldn't recommend that anyone buy an iRex device on the basis of any future development promises.

I'm saying that the wireless feature of the iLiad was useless

I use the wireless feature a lot on mine. That's how I sync documents between it and the PC. I hardly ever use the USB connection.

I agree that it may seem smart but its only in the very short term. You will recover 95% of the sales 1/2 year later - probably at a higher price point and without disgruntled customers.

Do you think that a small company with a single product line can afford to wait 1/2 year before their revenue stream recovers? If they tried that, they'd likely be out of business before the 1/2 year.

Really, who licenses their controller ? (Not doubting your word -Just curious)

Pretty much everybody. The only eInk device I know of which doesn't use an iRex controller is the Sony PRS-505. I don't know how long they can survive on controller licenses alone though, without the iLiad revenue.

I believe you're mistaken on that point -- Philips (from which iRex spun off) has rights to develop and license e-Ink displays (I believe it may only be exclusive to Europe, not sure on that point). PVI (http://www.pvi.com.tw/en/index/index.php) (located in Taiwan) is the only maker of the displays, at present (including the ones iRex uses), with e-Ink Inc. (http://eink.com/) holding the patent on the displays themselves.

I don't see how iRex gets any royalties in that situation ....

There are two main components that go into producing a display, a screen and a controller. E-Ink has a patent on the screen, iRex designed the controller. PVI manufacturs them, but they didn't design the parts.

Think of it like a monitor with a built in video card. E-Ink created the monitor, iRex created the video card.

I'd agree with you there completely -- if they're going to continue selling the iLiad, they ought to continue to improve the existing firmware for it, in as much as the hardware itself permits. That's always the kicker, isn't it? :sad:


They have said that while they don't have anything planned right now, they do expect there to be firmware updates for the iLiad. However, they've also said that there will not be "new functionality", whatever that means. Depending on how you interpret that, it could mean that there will only be bug fixes, or it could mean they'll continue to improve current functionality, but no major new features (like viewers for new document types, etc). It's hard to tell at this point.

but I wouldn't recommend that anyone buy an iRex device on the basis of any future development promises.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy any device on the basis of future development promises.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy any device on the basis of future development promises.
I agree-- but most of the other e ink products come with a fairly fixed set of features. I think iRex is one of the worst for putting products on the market with claims to offer more functionality "soon." I attribute a lot of that to the fact that they never wanted to be in the direct customer market in the first place-- they wanted B2B sales in which some other company would develop software and handle customer support.

There are two main components that go into producing a display, a screen and a controller. E-Ink has a patent on the screen, iRex designed the controller.Ah, yes, I see now. Thank you for clarifying that, I misunderstood what you meant before. Probably in too much of a hurry. :smack:

I agree-- but most of the other e ink products come with a fairly fixed set of features. I think iRex is one of the worst for putting products on the market with claims to offer more functionality "soon."

True. But another way to look at that is the other manufacturers aren't failing to live up to their promises... because they're not making any.

It all goes back to the notion of buying a device because of what it can do out of the box, not because of what you think it should be able to do, or what the company promises that it can do in the future. If you bought an iLiad because it already did what you needed, then the fact that it isn't a fixed set of features is a bonus. All of the promises of future capability haven't panned out, but a lot of them have. You don't really get any of that with most of the other devices.

People tend to forget just how much iRex has improved the iLiad since the initial release, compared to what other companies have done with their devices. They only get a bad rap because they haven't lived up to everything they've said they'd do. Would the general opinion of them be different if they never made promises, but still came out with the same improvements/updates that they have?

The basic rule of customer service: set appropriate expectations, and then meet or exceed them.

iRex is pretty bad at setting appropriate customer expectations. Sure, the customers here and elsewhere had some very high expectations for iRex, but iRex encouraged those high expectations with promises they couldn't keep (for whatever reasons).

I bought my iLiad after FBReader had been ported, and virtually all of the time that I'm using it, I'm using community-developed software. I'm ok with that. By the time I bought mine, I knew about the power management problems, and that they would not be fixed. It took iRex a long time to admit that, and even after they admitted it, there were some pretty misleading statements on their marketing web pages about battery life. Talk about poor management of customer expectations!

And this trend continues. By continuously promising something like the multi-format viewer, iRex has in fact discouraged some community developers from working to solve the problems with the current set of viewers. That's what really annoys me. It's bad enough that iRex has failed to support the iLiad to the extent that they promised, but they've made it much harder than necessary for anyone else to pick up the slack.

If they're going to abandon any further development for the iLiad, as seems very likely, I hope they'll at least consider releasing source on the Content Lister so the community developers can fix it.

Meanwhile, the DS1000 is another "not there yet" product, in my opinion. Maybe iRex will deliver this time. Maybe they'll take the business world by storm and a couple of years from now they'll have almost completely replaced the use of desktop printers in businesses. But I, for one, am going to wait until they've got the product to a state where I think it would be usable as-is before buying, or recommending that anyone else buy.

You've stated that very correct and presicely, nekokami. Although I have great gadged lust - by the given history it is sage having patience.
Gogolo

The basic rule of customer service: set appropriate expectations, and then meet or exceed them.

That's my motto, I try to push at work, but sometimes people are over zelous.

"Under promise, over deliver!" best strategy always.

BOb

"Under promise, over deliver!" best strategy always.I have a friend who's quite fond of that saying. :nice:

I have a friend who's quite fond of that saying. :nice:

I am glad it is Steve Sinofsky's motto too.

In case you don't know who he is. He is the new head of Windows group at Microsoft. The previous guy, Jim Alchin, while I'm sure a great guy and good at his job made a major mistake with Vista. Well before it came out they were promising a whole list of features and performance that it just turned out could not be delivered. This is one of the main reasons Vista isn't liked so much. It is a perception.

Steve Sinofsky is keeping the new Windows 7 info very close to his vest. He is making sure that if they say Windows 7 will be or do something that it does that and more. Actually, I think he even said that his goal was to Under promise and over deliver.

So, I'm sure this mistake applies to iRex. When will companies, espesially those that involve software ever learn?

BOb

That's what really annoys me. It's bad enough that iRex has failed to support the iLiad to the extent that they promised, but they've made it much harder than necessary for anyone else to pick up the slack.


That's certaily a valid frustration, but how many of the other eInk companies even allow users to pick up the slack? Do any of the others openly allow user community development and open source most of their software? I don't know.


If they're going to abandon any further development for the iLiad, as seems very likely, I hope they'll at least consider releasing source on the Content Lister so the community developers can fix it.


I agree that would be great. Not only fix the content lister as it stands, but with enough information about the hardware interaction between that code and the iLiad, it should be possible to clone some functionality of the new DR1000 UI.

But I, for one, am going to wait until they've got the product to a state where I think it would be usable as-is before buying, or recommending that anyone else buy.

Yep. Absolutely good advice, no matter what product/company you're talking about. I think a lot of people lost sight of that with the iLiad, and are now mad that it didn't fulfill their expectations for additional features. If you bought it because of what it could do at the time, then you're a lot less likely to be upset now.

I think many people are finding that they've learned that lesson the hard way. Personally, I bought mine a year and a half ago with software version 2.9.5 (?), and was happy with it then. 2.10, 2.11 and 2.12 were just bonuses as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I'm disappointed that development isn't going to continue, but I don't feel ripped off about it.

Moral of the story: Don't rely on undeveloped features to justify the purchase cost.

People tend to forget just how much iRex has improved the iLiad since the initial release, compared to what other companies have done with their devices. They only get a bad rap because they haven't lived up to everything they've said they'd do. Would the general opinion of them be different if they never made promises, but still came out with the same improvements/updates that they have?

Other people seem to forget how much iRex lied to it's inital customers.

Would our opinions be different if they hadn't:


Lied to us.
Actively attempted to cover up their changing (lowering) specs.
Failed consistantly to live up to their responsibilities.

Assuming I did so, then yeah, that's annoying, but again, not terribly surprising. The iLiad forum here is lousy with complaints that they haven't done this or that which they agreed to do. Again, I don't like it, but corporations sometimes don't keep their promises for various reasons, it's no shocker. And while they haven't kept them yet, they are saying that they plan to continue to support the iLiad for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I agree that they probably aren't foreseeing very far here. :rolleyes:

They have also said, unfortunately, that while they do plan to continue supporting the iLiad there are no plans to add any further functionality to it. So say goodbye to the power management etc that's been an ongoing promise...

That also indicates that they consider the DR a successor to the iLiad - if they were complementary then they would continue development on both so as to serve the different markets that each is meant for.

They have also said, unfortunately, that while they do plan to continue supporting the iLiad there are no plans to add any further functionality to it. So say goodbye to the power management etc that's been an ongoing promise...

I'm not sure specifically which promise you're referring to, but they've said that power management is pretty much done on the iLiad. They did originally promise suspend/hibernate and later said that they won't be able to deliver it. That's old news though. In one of the recent updates they started throttling back the CPU in between page turns, which has made a big difference in the battery life. That's about as good as they can get it though, which is what they're currently saying. I'm not aware of any recent power management promises which they have made.


That also indicates that they consider the DR a successor to the iLiad - if they were complementary then they would continue development on both so as to serve the different markets that each is meant for.

They've said that the main reason they are not continuing development of the iLiad is that they don't have enough resources to work on both. They made a decision to focus most of their efforts on the new device only. I think whether they discontinue the iLiad completely in the future, or else continue to sell it and provide minimal software development, probably depends on what the sales are like. If sales almost entirely switch over to the DR, then they'll probably treat the iLiad as a dead product. If the iLiad continues to sell though, that gives them motivation to budget at least some time towards working on it (likely only bug fixes and small improvements though).

If the iLiad continues to sell though, that gives them motivation to budget at least some time towards working on it (likely only bug fixes and small improvements though).

If it continues to sell doesn't that mean they "don't" need to do anything to it? If it doesn't sell they either need to improve it or drop it.

BOb

At this point, I think iRex is better off giving the source to the community, which is what they seem to plan on doing. That's fine. It would be great if they could also cut the price of the iLiad and sell it as-is, since they don't seem to want to support it anyway, but I suppose the nominal amount of each unit price that they set aside for support wouldn't make much difference anyway. :shrug:

If it continues to sell doesn't that mean they "don't" need to do anything to it? If it doesn't sell they either need to improve it or drop it.

BOb

I was thinking in terms of revenue/cost. If it continues to bring in revenue, then it's easier to get management to approve of budgeting some money towards software support. If it doesn't bring in revenue, then I expect they'll eventually drop it. I don't see them budgeting money to improve it if it's not selling at this point. If it were a new product, yes, but not now.

At this point, I think iRex is better off giving the source to the community, which is what they seem to plan on doing. That's fine. It would be great if they could also cut the price of the iLiad and sell it as-is, since they don't seem to want to support it anyway, but I suppose the nominal amount of each unit price that they set aside for support wouldn't make much difference anyway. :shrug:

I agree. I also wonder if iRex would be interested in making any of the community improvements available as "official" releases. For example, I'm thinking if the community fixed the content lister limitation, would iRex take that and release it as 2.13. That would make a lot of iLiad users happy who aren't savy enough to download/install third party software. It would also be a big PR boost for iRex in that there would be "new updates" without them having to task their resources with it. They'd have to do some testing and create a release, but it's a lot less work if they don't have to do the development.

I was thinking in terms of revenue/cost. If it continues to bring in revenue, then it's easier to get management to approve of budgeting some money towards software support.

Not my experience. The products that have low support calls, customers that like it they ignore and don't market, sell or develop. The new products that have tons of problems, high support calls, unhappy customers they spend more money developing and fixing.

The bean counters will say "why spend money on this when it is selling well and we are making money on it"?

BOb

They did originally promise suspend/hibernate and later said that they won't be able to deliver it. [...] I'm not aware of any recent power management promises which they have made.

That's pretty well what I was referring to. I wasn't aware of the later announcement.

However, promising to deliver something that you don't even know is possible isn't exactly the brightest move. It smacks of "Look we're working on it, please just shut up and go away." I don't really think it was that way but perception can be everything - it can make or break a single product company.

They've said that the main reason they are not continuing development of the iLiad is that they don't have enough resources to work on both.

In which case it isn't a complementary product, by definition, unless it's considered 'complete' as it is now.

Hands up all those who think the iLiad is complete as it stands?

Don't get me wrong - I love my iLiad. But there's so much more it could be, and I think it's a bit rough to expect people to lay out the premium price they charge for either an EOL product or a completely new one if you want something that will have the features that you were told the original would have.

Don't get me wrong - I love my iLiad. But there's so much more it could be, and I think it's a bit rough to expect people to lay out the premium price they charge for either an EOL product or a completely new one if you want something that will have the features that you were told the original would have.

IMO, that's why you don't lay out the price until it can do what you need it to.

IMO, that's why you don't lay out the price until it can do what you need it to.

Oh, it does what I needed it to, at the time. I didn't find out about a lot of the other possibilities until after I already had it.

I'm not so much disappointed in the iLiad as I am in the company.