View Full Version : Giving away or lending an Ebook


stustaff
09-11-2008, 05:52 AM
I would quite happily send anyone on here a paperback I would otherwise throw away so they could have a read or even give it to a charity so they can sell it.

What happens now Ebooks are introduced to the mix?

Can I send you a legally purchased DRM free ebook to read?
Can I lend it my wife to put on her reader If i purchased it?
Can I put it on disc and give it to a charity shop to resell?
Can I sell a disc with them on at a market stall?

thoughts?

Personally I think all of the above are fine with a paperback and are done all of the time so surely it would be ok to do the same with an Ebook? why not?

HarryT
09-11-2008, 05:54 AM
Most DRM formats provide a mechanism to share the book with your friends, family, etc. No, you can't re-sell them, generally speaking; this will be specified by the T&C at the store where you buy the book from.

Patricia
09-11-2008, 05:58 AM
I suppose that one difference is that if you give away a paper book then you no longer have it. But if you give away copies of ebooks then you do still have it.

This could lead to a proliferation of copies, so that the author loses out on royalties. And whilst your family are doubtless honest people, there are others who might put the book on torrent sites.

stustaff
09-11-2008, 06:13 AM
Most DRM formats provide a mechanism to share the book with your friends, family, etc. No, you can't re-sell them, generally speaking; this will be specified by the T&C at the store where you buy the book from.

Good point but i did say non DRM ebooks and Paper backs also contain the same notice in the fronto of books stating not for hire or resale... yet i dont see the police seizing materials from my local secondhand bookstore.

Patricia the author loses out on the royalties if I lend the paperbook around to 4 or 5 people as I and those people wont purchase it (some reference books I may but not a general novel)
The torrent one is a non issue really for me and not relevant! someone could borrow a pbook from me and put it on a torrent!

acidzebra
09-11-2008, 06:28 AM
If I can sell my old pbooks, why can't I sell my old ebooks? If I can't sell them, do I own them at all, or am I just renting them? I'm pretty sure I own my paper books, and second-hand bookstores will happily take them.

Cookie Monster
09-11-2008, 07:38 AM
Good point but i did say non DRM ebooks and Paper backs also contain the same notice in the fronto of books stating not for hire or resale... yet i dont see the police seizing materials from my local secondhand bookstore.


That's the first sale doctrine. This is where if you acquire an item legally, like a book, you can sell or give it away without permission from the copyright owner to whomever you please

stustaff
09-11-2008, 07:44 AM
That's the first sale doctrine. This is where if you acquire an item legally, like a book, you can sell or give it away without permission from the copyright owner to whomever you please

So I can give away an ebook to whoever i please legally?

dadioflex
09-11-2008, 07:45 AM
Edit.

Cookie Monster
09-11-2008, 07:53 AM
So I can give away an ebook to whoever i please legally?

Software is a grey area. Are EULA or other contracts binding when they say you can't resell? Some courts have said yes and some no.

amgoforth
09-11-2008, 08:49 AM
Most DRM formats provide a mechanism to share the book with your friends, family, etc. No, you can't re-sell them, generally speaking; this will be specified by the T&C at the store where you buy the book from.

He said non DRM!!!

amgoforth
09-11-2008, 08:49 AM
PLEASE read the whole Question.

JSWolf
09-11-2008, 09:44 AM
Now to take this one step farther.. let's say I wanted to sell my 505 and I put on content that I will never reread that I legally purchased. Can I sell it with this content on it? I should hope so. Some of it could have DRM and some not. But that should not matter. If the content was legally purchased and I won't be rereading it, then giving it away/selling it should be legal (IMHO).

Format C:
09-11-2008, 10:11 AM
I look at the whole thing in another way.
When I buy a paper book, I actually own the paper, not the book. In effect I can't rewrite the story, I can't use the characters in another book I write and so on.
When I own the paper, I get an implicit license for a limited use of what's written in the paper (I can read it, but if the ink fades, I lose it and I cannot have another free or warranty covered copy; and I still own the paper).
Being the legal owner of that bunch of paper sheets, I can do what I want with it, even to light a fire.
I'm not the owner of the printed words in it.

The implicit license for the limited use of the book goes with the paper. So, if I lend or resell the paper, the new owner gets the limited license too.

The same applies to e-books. I own the disk where the book is stored, I can sell it, lend it or burn it. But I can't do nothing withe content of the book (not even read it in the device of my choice, in some cases).
So when I buy the e-book, I'm buying the bytes of it, non its content. Actually I'm buyng nothing at all (and I pay a fair price for it!!!!). The e-books, which I don't own, comes with an explicit license for a very limited use (more limited than p-book...).

An e-book is more like a movie theater ticket than a p-book.
The difference is in the fact you can read a book more than once with the same ticket, but sooner or later it will be changed and reders will be charged per page display.

;)

Format C:
09-11-2008, 10:14 AM
Ah, slightly off-topic: in my country I can't read aloud in a public place the book I bought.

;)

tompe
09-11-2008, 10:31 AM
You can in most countries legally copy the paper book and then lend the paper book to a friend.

Format C:
09-11-2008, 10:57 AM
I would quite happily send anyone on here a paperback I would otherwise throw away so they could have a read or even give it to a charity so they can sell it.

What happens now Ebooks are introduced to the mix?

Readers are called "pirates", "thieves" and "criminals". Sometimes "customers" and "consumers", if they behave properly...

Can I send you a legally purchased DRM free ebook to read?

If you want to spend 4 years in jail, yes, you can.

Can I lend it my wife to put on her reader If i purchased it?

If you purchsed it from Mobipocket, you can (they, in their infinite generosity, let you put the book onto up to five devices). With other providers, it can be different.

Can I put it on disc and give it to a charity shop to resell?

No. You can't even dream of it.

Can I sell a disc with them on at a market stall?

That's worse than selling drugs at school!!!!!!!!!!!!

thoughts?

Personally I think all of the above are fine with a paperback and are done all of the time so surely it would be ok to do the same with an Ebook? why not?

It's not "ok" with paperbacks.
It's simply impossible to enforce a law who forbid it all.
If RFIDs will make it feasible, public libraries will be called "prates", like P2Ps.

Ebook technology permit a heavy limitation on usage, it's easier to enforce (with the ISP cooperation) so it's widely used.

;););)

norg1
11-13-2009, 05:23 PM
The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book.......I suppose if someone wanted to make copies of their pbook and sell copies.........but again..not the same thing...one would need a publishing house type setup to get "retail quality" pbook copies....the ebook...all one needs to do is..well, copy it.....then it is the same quality as the original....that`s the rub now isn`t it?

As long as the human race is capable of deceptive activities, there will always be a need for protective practices..........

Those who abuse the system are the reason that those who do not, suffer under ever gowing rules and restrictions....a good place to start if anyone ever felt the need to call something evil........

calvin-c
11-13-2009, 05:43 PM
You can in most countries legally copy the paper book and then lend the paper book to a friend.
Not in any country that *I* know of.
There are 2 legal issues with eBooks that generally aren't faced with pBooks. Other than that, your legal rights are the same with both.

1) The license. As someone pointed out, there has been no definitive decision as to whether or not violating the license on an eBook carries any legal penalty. 2) It's also undecided as to whether stripping DRM is a legal violation.

In the case of selling a device with eBooks loaded, DRM or not, #2 wouldn't apply. I'm certain selling the device with books on it wouldn't violate copyright (provided you didn't keep copies of the books), so all that's left is #1. I doubt if a publisher would pursue that, and even if they did I think it's likely that it would be ruled legal.

CleverClothe
11-13-2009, 06:04 PM
Zombie thread is smelly. :skull:

pdurrant
11-13-2009, 06:18 PM
The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book

:rofl:

Ummm... No.

Hellmark
11-13-2009, 07:45 PM
The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book

I've not ever heard that argument, even from those who make and use DRM. DRM is in place to prevent someone getting a copy for free.

tompe
11-13-2009, 10:17 PM
I've not ever heard that argument, even from those who make and use DRM. DRM is in place to prevent someone getting a copy for free.

I believe that is wrong to. DRM exists because of its lock in effect.

calvin-c
11-13-2009, 11:16 PM
I believe that is wrong to. DRM exists because of its lock in effect.
Lock in to what?
AFAIK the main effect of DRM is making it difficult to convert ebooks to a different format. Of course I don't use a format-locked device, I use one on which I can load a program to read whatever format I prefer (well....there's a few formats for which I've yet to find a program that works on my handheld, but if I wanted to badly enough I'm sure I could write my own, it's just usually easier to find a program to strip the DRM & convert the book).

HansTWN
11-14-2009, 12:18 AM
I believe that is wrong to. DRM exists because of its lock in effect.

That may be true for Sony LRX and Amazon. But for epub?

HarryT
11-14-2009, 04:49 AM
That may be true for Sony LRX and Amazon. But for epub?

Unfortunately the ePub standards committee missed the boat on this one. There is no "standard" for ePub DRM. All currently-available devices use Adobe's DRM mechanism for ePub, but soon we'll have a different DRM mechanism for the B&N nook, and it's conceivable that in a few years we'll have half a dozen different and incompatible DRM systems, all of which will perfectly correctly be able to call themselves "ePub".

tompe
11-14-2009, 06:56 AM
Lock in to what?


Amazon for example.

DawnFalcon
11-14-2009, 10:43 AM
The DRM is in place to stop the abusers who would sell copies of a book

No, it's there to make sure that the companies get their restrictions on the ebook's usage enforced. This is largely ineffective against people unwilling to jump through hoops (they'll go to the darknet), unwilling to abide by the restrictions (they'll crack the DRM) and will simply cause problems for the rest of your customers and reduce your customer base to those willing to put up with that or crack the DRM.

saoir
01-13-2011, 01:50 PM
A lot of nonsense is being written here about it being illegal to sell or lend eBooks.

Firstly under the law in the UK and US it is not the case that sellers can just sit back and add in any old conditions into their TOS and have them enforced by the law. It just doesn't work that way. And no court has yet made a definitive judgement on the case of these conditions of sale and eBooks. Otherwise Ford could include conditions about only driving on specific quality roads, or only allowing four people in the car. What nonsense.

Secondly Amazon and other sites use a "BUY" button. That in and of itself commits them to selling you the eBook outright.

We however have to be careful about what is meant by sell and lend. If I want to sell you my eBook, then even under the normal accepted and traditional copyright law, I have to delete my own copy. I think that is fair.
In addition if I want to lend you my eBook, I would again need to delete my own copy. When you return it you would need to delete your copy.

Too many people have written all over the web about the 'fact' that it is illegal to sell/lend. No law makes such a statement. No law deals with eBooks or text in an electronic format. The closest it has come is referring to software and software games. Even in this area no court has made a definitive judgement about selling on purchased software. There has been a mix of decisions, some of which have gone completely in favour of the customer.

elcreative
01-13-2011, 01:54 PM
saoir, many people already know this but you've hit the nail right on the head... for some reason, with electronic media, people want sell/lend to include retaining one's own copy... after all it's only ones and zeroes...

Daithi
01-13-2011, 02:19 PM
The last court ruling of which I'm aware has held that the "First Sale Doctrine" does NOT apply to "software" and that when you buy software you are only buying a license. The link I provided below is to the appeal of the famous Autodesk ruling that said the "First Sale Doctrine" did apply. The original ruling happened back in 2008 and the latest ruling was about 4 months ago. (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2010/09/10/09-35969.pdf)

As far as I know there has been no ruling specifially applied to ebooks, but IMHO the "software" ruling will apply to ebooks as well.

I'm not saying I agree with this ruling. I'm just saying what the lastest ruling was.

elcreative
01-13-2011, 02:31 PM
And that case is now still ongoing but I think it will be rather more difficult to treat software and eBooks the same... we won't know until someone cares to challenge a publisher in court...

boxcorner
01-13-2011, 03:02 PM
What's newsworthy about this thread?

NVash
01-13-2011, 04:01 PM
Isnt Amazon working on something so people can lend out books for the Kindle? Thatd be great, I recently got one and would love to lend some out to friends. However theyd come with a time limit and truthfully I dont see the point in that. When a book comes with a time limit it can be more of a pain than anything else. Im reminded of one time I got a book from the library. Actually, many times I got books I got too busy to finish them. Very seldom do I go back and purchase them, they usually just get tossed on my 'To Read' list and forgotten about. I dont know about anyone else but I have quite a large list of books I intend to read someday. Finding its way back on there, half read or not, is a bad thing. Whether I got halfway finished or not doesnt matter because by the time I get it Ill have to start all over again.

Which poses a question. Saying they actually allow book lending how would they do it if its so flawed with a time limit? Just lend it to them and it be like their own copy? Thatd be great BUT what of the 'lost' purchase? They could send it from the original persons Kindle and transfer it to the new one but surely someone would see this 'lending' as a free give away and a 'lost sale'. I doubt theyd ever allow such a thing.

Belle2Be
01-13-2011, 04:16 PM
Isnt Amazon working on something so people can lend out books for the Kindle? Thatd be great, I recently got one and would love to lend some out to friends. However theyd come with a time limit and truthfully I dont see the point in that. When a book comes with a time limit it can be more of a pain than anything else. Im reminded of one time I got a book from the library. Actually, many times I got books I got too busy to finish them. Very seldom do I go back and purchase them, they usually just get tossed on my 'To Read' list and forgotten about. I dont know about anyone else but I have quite a large list of books I intend to read someday. Finding its way back on there, half read or not, is a bad thing. Whether I got halfway finished or not doesn't matter because by the time I get it Ill have to start all over again.

Which poses a question. Saying they actually allow book lending how would they do it if its so flawed with a time limit? Just lend it to them and it be like their own copy? That'd be great BUT what of the 'lost' purchase? They could send it from the original persons Kindle and transfer it to the new one but surely someone would see this 'lending' as a free give away and a 'lost sale'. I doubt they'd ever allow such a thing.
They do allow lending now, same rules as libraries and the nook, 2 weeks, only loanable once(nook, not library),and loan-ability depends on the publisher.

ETA the book is unreadable by the original owner (assuming the wifi is turned on) during the 2 weeks, and it disappears from the lendee's Kindle( again, assuming the wifi is turned on). It can be kept for longer if the person just keeps their Kindle wifi off until they are done with the book. It's not known yet if the file "self destructs".

saoir
01-16-2011, 03:21 PM
What's newsworthy about this thread?

It's important because we are entering a new era in reading where eBooks we buy are no longer our property in the way paper books are our property - if we go by what Amazon and others are trying to implement.

I believe there is a fundamental difference between software and eBooks. Software is written to produce an action or a product. Continued use produces continued product or continued action. eBooks do not do such a thing and are simply passive texts.

The soon a definitive consideration is issued by the courts the better.

On the other hand whatever the courts say this is never ever going to go the way of the publishers. If the courts decide lease then piracy is going to skyrocket and torrent sites along with them. People, imho, have no intention of standing by and allowing this kind of appalling rip off.

boxcorner
01-17-2011, 06:36 AM
It's important ...
Thanks, I understand your point and sorry if my post was ambiguous. My comment was intended to be a query relating to the choice of thread, News rather than, say, General Discussions.

stustaff's original post didn't seem to be news; I was just puzzled about why some threads get moved, and not others. I'm still comparatively new around here and trying to get my head around some of the forum rules. Two Moderators added comments, without deeming the thread to be misplaced, and Daithi's reference in Post #30 was news, albeit 4-months old, so perhaps my comment was completely inappropriate, or out of order. Sorry, no offence intended.

It's important ... The soon a definitive consideration is issued by the courts the better ...
I agree it's important, but by definition it's also complex - not just limited to a single country and its laws, or even to a group of countries and their laws. I am assuming that the global use of e-books and readers is going to continue increasing.

saoir
01-17-2011, 01:57 PM
Thanks, I understand your point and sorry if my post was ambiguous. My comment was intended to be a query relating to the choice of thread, News rather than, say, General Discussions.I actually agree with you on that. :thumbsup:

Jaime_Astorga
01-17-2011, 06:41 PM
My opinion on eBook lending is summarized in this (http://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2010/fall/lending-a-solved-problem) wonderful essay by John Sullivan titled "Lending: A solved problem".

I actually agree with you on that. :thumbsup:
Thirded. I found it odd that this thread was in News.

boxcorner
01-18-2011, 04:04 AM
My opinion on eBook lending is summarized in this (http://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2010/fall/lending-a-solved-problem) wonderful essay by John Sullivan titled "Lending: A solved problem" ...Excellent; thanks for the link.

HarryT
01-18-2011, 04:18 AM
We've moved this to the "General Discussions" forum. It's really not "News".