My Question

I appreciate being a member of the Rewards program. However you exclude e-books. You sell the Sony Reader, but don't provide any content for it. I'm forced to use the Sony eBookstore, which, though you've co-branded it, doesn't participate in the Borders Rewards program.

This is a serious issue for me, and is degrading my enjoyment of Borders. You promote and sell the Sony Reader, co-brand the eBook Library software, but remain at arm's distance from content.

I shop your store to find books I want, then go home and shop Sony to see if they are available, and if they aren't, go BACK to the store and reluctantly purchase the printed edition. You can understand how this is not a pleasant shopping experience. If I DO find the book on Sony's site, I can't use your coupons. This is a lose-lose situation, and I'm on the verge of taking ALL my business to Amazon.

Borders' Response

Thank you for contacting Borders Customer Care with your comments and Borders.com inquiry.

Feedback from valued customers like you is essential to us as it allows us to keep in touch with areas where we can improve our services. Your suggestion will be included in our regular reporting to our various departments and in information presented to the executives at Borders. While I cannot guarantee that a change will be made, we appreciate your sending us your ideas.

We are currently making improvements to the Borders.com web site. As a result, you may encounter some service interruption. Be assured that we are working to enhance your online shopping experience as quickly as possible and we encourage you to visit us again soon. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Thanks again for taking the time to write to us. If you should have any other thoughts on how we can improve the shopping experience at Borders stores, please don?t hesitate to share these with us.

My Reply

This is non-responsive. I purchased the Sony Reader at a Borders book store. The Sony Install CD had the Borders name and logo on it. It was reasonable to assume, then, that I could purchase books from Borders to run on this device. I feel I was misled. Telling me you'll float the idea up the chain of command until eventually an executive notes my objections as a tick mark on a bar graph does not address my concern.

Borders' Response

Thank you for contacting Borders Customer Care with your inquiry,

You can go online to www.borders.com and purchase the e- books for the Sony reader. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

I hope that this information is helpful. If you should have any other questions or comments, please don't hesitate to contact us.

My Reply

NO, you cannot. Please re-read my original email. You provide a link from your site to the Sony site. When I thus purchase a book, I'm purchasing it from Sony, which doesn't participate in the Borders Rewards program. Again, please re-read my original email for a full discussion of the problems with the current system.

Borders' Latest Response

Thank you for contacting us about Sony e-readers,

Due to the high prices of electronics and restrictions set by the manufacture they our excluded from our coupon offers and Borders rewards program.

Thank you again for writing. If you have any other questions or comments, please don't hesitate to contact us at rewards@bordersstores.com

Translation:

Look, dude. I'm just a flunkie getting paid in coffee and pizza. I can't fix this for you. So, I'll forward it along, but I don't know what to tell ya.

The point is, each reply gets progressively further away from the issue. If you're going to sub-out your e-book business to Sony, at least integrate your storefronts and Rewards programs. The answer? Uh, electronics are too expensive to discount. Ok... and what is the price of tea in China?

exactly why I see Borders going out of business in the near future

This is why I stopped buying anything at Borders several years ago and do my shopping at B&N. The local Borders store was as irrelevantly responsive as Borders.com is when it comes to customer service.

I really think you're asking too much. TCV put it well.

I agree with your point, in general.... but that's also "how it is." You don't have to pay to be in the Rewards program, it's free. But there are other companies involved in this business, and just having Borders involved doesn't mean their discounts mean anything or that you should even, really, expect it.

When you're getting discounts, etc, for free.... I think the "gift horse in the mouth" adage is appropriate. If you bought a Sony Reader and were thinking you'd get a discount then you didn't read the print on every single coupon Rewards offers that says, clearly, that these do not apply to electronic devices. Either way, it may be a point of contention but I was getting these emails from you I'd be dismissive, too.

Yes, there is a degree of feigned ignorance in my replies. I wanted to provide general feedback about the overall shopping experience, but every one of their email us, Contact Us, Feedback forms were broken, so I sent my frustrations to the "rewards" email address. Their completely irrelevant, clueless replies spurred me to get more and more blunt.

I posted the above exchange mainly for the entertainment value and as a Cautionary Tale for potential Sony Reader purchasers. Had I to do it over again, I would have bought the Kindle.

So sad. If I could buy Amazon books for my Reader I would be in Heaven.

Just to be clear:

I am sympathetic to the representatives (and, yes, it's very likely more than one) on the other end. I've worked in phone support for years and am occasionally drawn into things about which I have no control. The folks replying to the mails here likely do not have the answer you're looking for. They're stalling. There's nothing to say. Pushing someone like this -- especially over email -- is likely to produce nothing but nonsense answers and half-hearted promises to send things along.

I agree largely with your points, Taylor514ce. Still, I don't think you're going to get anymore than this. Try another avenue if you want a better answer, but don't expect much.

Whoa, whoa. There is a difference between not knowing the reply and saying so, and not knowing the reply and so giving a completely irrelevant answer. There's also, in most major companies, an escalation process. I know, I've had to design them! In all of the above, except for the first response, it's been the same rep. Why hasn't the rep escalated up to someone who at least knows what an e-book is?

All I can give is my experience, professional and personal. In this case, it seems to me the rep (or reps) doesn't know the answer and won't say, "I don't know." Why won't they say this?

Well, I've worked with companies who believe that customer support and helpdesks should be neither seen nor heard. Agents are discouraged from passing things along. If you would prefer other proof, just grab Consumerist's RSS feed for the gory details.

Honestly, I can't tell you if that's going on here. I can tell you as an agent that if I have no one to send your request to -- or if I know there's not going to be any meaningful response -- it's maddening, but I can't tell you that, ESPECIALLY in email.

You should take ALL your business to Amazon. Problem solved!! LoL

1.1 Service Unavailable :D

Just a couple quick thoughts:

1) Remind me again which B&N coupons are good towards eBooks

2) If you don't want a robo-letter then don't send it to a robo-rep with no authority to say anything other than what is (pre)written in their manual. Start at the top of the chain. Borders has a president, multiple vice-presidents and their names and titles are posted right on their web site. They have their own staff who can more (if only slightly so) directly answer your question. And write your letter on paper, not email. It gives it more urgency and personalization.

3) Odds are Sony's agreement with Borders doesn't allow Borders to discount. That is the SONY way. As the Sony reader format is proprietary Borders may have little say in the matter. Perhaps your issue is with Sony, not Borders.

4) I don't see the nexus between Border's eBook Store, Border's replies to you, and the fact you wish you know wish you bought a Kindle. If you did your research before you bought a reader you already knew the Sony/Borders store is the only way to get current books from major publishers. I certainly did.

5) Remind me again, what coupons does Amazon accept for Kindle books? Also how to I sign up for the Kindle Rewards program?

6) If you pine for a Kindle now go sell your Reader and buy a Kindle. It really IS that simple. If you don't want to do that b/c you will "lose" your Reader books, well then maybe you should not have bought in to an eReader that relies on DRM'd books. But you knew that was a risk going in. Kindle books are no less DRM'd.

The only thing I would add to this discussion is that for content I wish I had bought a Kindle, but for the reading experience I am definitely glad I bought the Sony, and when my PRS 500 breaks, I will definitely buy a PRS505, not a Kindle.

In the meantime, I wouldn't stop shopping at Border's simply because their support personnel are clueless. B&N's support people are even more clueless about the world of ebooks! I never make my purchasing decisions in the technology realm based on the knowledge of the tech support personnel (or even the customer service personnel) -- if I did that, I'd never buy anything technological, because they're ALL clueless!

I never make my purchasing decisions in the technology realm based on the knowledge of the tech support personnel (or even the customer service personnel) -- if I did that, I'd never buy anything technological, because they're ALL clueless!

That's very harsh, David; there are many companies who are both knowledgeable and extremely helpful. The level of technical knowledge and customer service at Fictionwise, for example, is nothing short of superb, in my experience. That's the main reason that I buy so many books there.

Just a couple quick thoughts:

1) Remind me again which B&N coupons are good towards eBooks

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post. B&N doesn't sell e-books so discount coupons for e-books are a nonissue with B&N. I was commenting on Borders' customer service at our local Borders store and reflecting that when I buy p-books, I go to my local B&N and not to Borders. I also do not shop at Amazon, preferring B&N.com for p-books that I buy online.

For e-books, I have bought directly from Baen and Sony, and am considering buying a membership in Fictionwise (I haven't yet done so because I currently enough e-books to read for the next several months, as well as enough p-books for the next several years). I have always gotten good customer service from B&N so I buy from B&N. When I did buy at Borders, the customer service was so bad that I simply stopped. Nothing to do with e-books, just to do with customer service.

The only thing I would add to this discussion is that for content I wish I had bought a Kindle, but for the reading experience I am definitely glad I bought the Sony, and when my PRS 500 breaks, I will definitely buy a PRS505, not a Kindle.

I have both a PRS-500 and a Kindle and I think the "reading experience" on them is the same. The Kindle does have 6 font sizes to the Sony's three. Finding content I want at a decent price and getting it onto the device is much easier with the Kindle. (The better Kindle screen not withstanding because the 505 resolves that.)

In addition to the "reading experience" the Kindle adds the ability to lookup words using the dictionary, annotate books, take clippings of books, search through the books on the device, use Wikipedia from the device, jump to a title or author on the menu screen, etc.

But, to each his own.

BOb

I really think you're asking too much. TCV put it well.

I agree with your point, in general.... but that's also "how it is." You don't have to pay to be in the Rewards program, it's free. But there are other companies involved in this business, and just having Borders involved doesn't mean their discounts mean anything or that you should even, really, expect it.

When you're getting discounts, etc, for free.... I think the "gift horse in the mouth" adage is appropriate. If you bought a Sony Reader and were thinking you'd get a discount then you didn't read the print on every single coupon Rewards offers that says, clearly, that these do not apply to electronic devices. Either way, it may be a point of contention but I was getting these emails from you I'd be dismissive, too.

Maybe I missed something, but wasn't the author of this thread talking about having Borders Rewards tagged to the content?? I mean, rather than the electronic device?? Granted, the coupons cannot be used for "electonic devices" ... so .... why should that mean they cannot be applied to electronic content? I see the two things as very different.

If Borders was smart (and there are very few commercial organizations out there that I consider "smart"), they would sell content for the digital readers they sell, and, they would make it a part of Border's Rewards just to encourage people to purchase more ... of whatever content they sell.

It's all about getting the consumer (1) in the door -- whether in your physical store or online, (2) interested in your product, (3) and out the door, product in hand feeling like they got a good deal, that (4) you make a nice profit on.

Pretty simple really, and I don't think Border's response shows it has the slightest handle on that.

Maybe I missed something, but wasn't the author of this thread talking about having Borders Rewards tagged to the content?? I mean, rather than the electronic device?? Granted, the coupons cannot be used for "electonic devices" ... so .... why should that mean they cannot be applied to electronic content? I see the two things as very different.
Even if they won't accept your Reward certificates toward purchase of an e-Book, if they gave you the Reward points for buying the e-Book, then they'll see you coming back to spend that Reward coupon on paper books. And if you do that in a brick & mortar store, then you're likely to give in to impulse and spend even more. 'Cause we know that bibliophiles who keep up with Reward coupons have very little self-control when it comes to shopping in a book store!

To the previous two posters: bingo!

I have both a PRS-500 and a Kindle and I think the "reading experience" on them is the same. The Kindle does have 6 font sizes to the Sony's three. Finding content I want at a decent price and getting it onto the device is much easier with the Kindle. (The better Kindle screen not withstanding because the 505 resolves that.)

In addition to the "reading experience" the Kindle adds the ability to lookup words using the dictionary, annotate books, take clippings of books, search through the books on the device, use Wikipedia from the device, jump to a title or author on the menu screen, etc.

But, to each his own.

BOb

I haven't held a Kindle, and unfortunately since they're not sold in stores, I can't try that out before I buy it, but the device looks like it would be unwieldy to read from single-handed. My PRS500 (and the PRS505 which I have held at Border's) fits my hand perfectly so I can read one handed. The Kindle appears as if it would be more like the newer, elongated paperbacks, which I don't like the balance of in my hand.

And I realize that no two people's hand-size nor finger-strength are identical, so it's the sort of judgement call that can only be made by actually holding them both in my hand and comparing them

I realize the screens are identical (except for the Kindle's wider selection of font sizes, but I'm quite happy with Sony's font sizes) so the actual visual reading experience would be the same. I was referring (not too clearly) about the overall reading experience, where it looks as if the Kindle would have to be held in both hands for balance.

I sure with Amazon would start selling them through stores like Best Buy or B&N or Border's (like that would ever happen) so that we could actually touch one and physically try it out.

That's very harsh, David; there are many companies who are both knowledgeable and extremely helpful. The level of technical knowledge and customer service at Fictionwise, for example, is nothing short of superb, in my experience. That's the main reason that I buy so many books there.

You know, I have to admit that I agree with you and I realize my statements were harsh. I should have qualified them to be "hardware and software giants" that I don't depend on the tech support for.

Fictionwise is very knowledgeable and very willing to help, as opposed to larger companies where when you finally speak to a person it's clear they've never used the product but are simply reading from their computer screens or out of a notebook.

That's very harsh, David; there are many companies who are both knowledgeable and extremely helpful. The level of technical knowledge and customer service at Fictionwise, for example, is nothing short of superb, in my experience. That's the main reason that I buy so many books there.

From my experience, Fictionwise is the exception. They are almost the only company that seems to have competent staff. Offhans, I can't think of any other company that had a customer service department that was helpful, or showed the least glimmer of intelligence.

So, when (in my experience) 99% of customer service is clueless, I think his summary qualifies as accurate.

From my experience, Fictionwise is the exception. They are almost the only company that seems to have competent staff. Offhans, I can't think of any other company that had a customer service department that was helpful, or showed the least glimmer of intelligence.

So, when (in my experience) 99% of customer service is clueless, I think his summary qualifies as accurate.

Too true. And, there is nothing worse (short of actual torture) than talking to a customer service rep and becoming all too aware that you know more about the product line than they do. Happens to me constantly when I am purchasing computer parts ... and it makes me crazy.

If you are going to have a department called "customer service" it would be nice if they actually provided some service to the customer. Novel thought, I know .... argh. :eek:

I haven't held a Kindle, and unfortunately since they're not sold in stores, I can't try that out before I buy it, but the device looks like it would be unwieldy to read from single-handed.


I can use the Kindle with a single hand, both right and left. It is a bit heavier than the PRS500, but by lust a little. But, I usually hold it with my left hand and press the turn page button on the right edge with my right hand to turn the page.

I could not use the PRS500 with only my right hand... I guess there is a hack to turn pages with the joystick, but I never installed this.


I sure with Amazon would start selling them through stores like Best Buy or B&N or Border's (like that would ever happen) so that we could actually touch one and physically try it out.

You can buy a Kindle and return it within 30 days for your money back. With the Sony you probably have the basic 10 day return policy from most stores.

BOb

I haven't held a Kindle, and unfortunately since they're not sold in stores, I can't try that out before I buy it, but the device looks like it would be unwieldy to read from single-handed. My PRS500 (and the PRS505 which I have held at Border's) fits my hand perfectly so I can read one handed. The Kindle appears as if it would be more like the newer, elongated paperbacks, which I don't like the balance of in my hand.

And I realize that no two people's hand-size nor finger-strength are identical, so it's the sort of judgement call that can only be made by actually holding them both in my hand and comparing them It's not the same as holding in your own hand, but here are some quick photos I just took.

I'm right-handed so most of the time, I hold the Kindle in my left hand so I can do other things (like munch bon-bons or sip my diet coke) with my right hand. Here's how I usually hold the Kindle when reading:
http://www.elsi123.net/~crafty/pics/Kindle1.jpg

and you can see how easy it is to just lift my thumb onto the Next Page (or even the Previous Page) button.
http://www.elsi123.net/~crafty/pics/Kindle2.jpg

The big problem that I have is that I have had to change the way I hold a book when reading in bed. With paper books, I lay on my left side and hold the book from the top like this:
http://www.elsi123.net/~crafty/pics/Paper1.jpg

I then reach over with my right hand to turn the page. But, I'm not comfortable holding the Kindle from the top like that, instead, I prop it against a pillow so I can continue to hold it pretty much the same in bed as when sitting up.

Now see, I would have trouble holding a paperback like that because a cat would plant him or herself right on top of it. I have to be able to hold the book and turn the pages with one hand, and it needs to be either hand because I never know which side of my body will be cat vacant at any one time.

I'm hoping the Kindle will be the answer to my prayers ... also that it will allow me to read my favorite books again without the need to remove the plexyglass that covers the lower bookshelves everytime I want to get one. Must have the plexyglass because some of my cats are prone to spraying ... not good for books.

@dhBailey:

Am not trying to pick a fight, but if you can find me the e.mail of a president of a big company like Palm or Borders on one of their websites, either I am an incompetent clog or you are a genius.
It seems to me that generally, the only recourse most consumers have to make a complaint is either via a very vague system accessed on a website or using a general toll-free number.
A friend of mine once advised that if I was really so angry, that I should pen/type an actual letter to an exec. Gee, I wonder how many letters addressed to "Senior Executive Officer" c/o Palm, Inc. actually get delivered.

Taylor, I understand your aggravation at lack-lustre resolution of your query. Sometimes contacting the company and getting a ridiculous, off-topic response is worse than never contacting them at all.

On a related note, it is frustrating that all the customer/technical support staff feel obliged to go through their whole "I'm sorry, please allow me to help you with that by following my prolix script" rather than saying "Okay." Second, it stings a little that the threat of lost business really does not phase anyone anymore. Guess there are simply too many consumers for one person's monetary vote to count.

I never said you could find the email of the president of a big company like Palm or Borders on their web-sites. And reviewing the messages in this thread, I can't see where anybody claimed that, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.

But you can eventually find their names, if you keep pressing links on the Contact Us page, especially for publicly traded companies where you can find their financial reports, which list the names of the board members and the officers, so you can address mail to them directly and not by any generic "President, Border's Books" term.

...and today, the Borders/Sony saga will continue. I kept a careful log of my starting/ending pages during my reading sessions since my last full, overnight charge, and I'm only getting about 500 page turns before the battery is depleted.

I will be going, receipt and complete packaging in hand, to Borders today to attempt an exchange. I don't want to deal with Sony for a "refurbished" product. I bought it at Borders, Borders is an official Sony Retailer, Borders has new Readers in stock, this should be a simple matter.

We'll see.

.I will be going, receipt and complete packaging in hand, to Borders today to attempt an exchange. I don't want to deal with Sony for a "refurbished" product. I bought it at Borders, Borders is an official Sony Retailer, Borders has new Readers in stock, this should be a simple matter.


Good luck. How long have you had it? You are only getting 500 pages without any memory cards?

Perhaps you can just return the thing and get a Kindle.

BOb

@ dhbailey:

My mistake, Spec2 is the one who claimed that the contact for the president, et al is "right there on their website." Sorry to single you out like that.
Guess that I am simply not as determined as you lot. Considering that my internet connexion is only viable for five minutes at a time on good days might go a long way to explaining that.

Taylor: Good luck with your return. Why an android with a mind the size of a planet needs an external device to read I surely do not know, but that's your business.

Peer pressure.

the ancient one returns at last !!!

"peer pressure", pfff... :rolleyes:

Peer pressure.

Maybe you should quit while your ahead....

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/image.php?u=14714&dateline=1212760666 (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/member.php?u=14714)

BOb

I walked in to my local Borders, where everybody knows my name. Miss Funky Cute was there... I have such a crush. Today she was being "British", with an 'orrible attempt at Cockney. I don't know why, but I was "guv" this evening. Customer service desk, with the young man with way too long and way too pretty hair. Clueless, as usual, so I wandered around until I found the sweet, smart manager. I explained the situation to her. At first she was giving me the "I'm about to give you bad news as soon as you finish" expression, but when I said "exchange", she brightened, and with no fuss whatsoever, exchanged my Reader.

Hopefully this one will have a battery that works as advertised.

Yaaaaaay!!!

it's his overwhelming charm, you know. he can get away with anything. resistance is useless.

Prepare to be whelmed.

Hopefully this one will have a battery that works as advertised.

Nice Job govna... now that you have a new in box unit, you can take it back and return it. <G>

Then you can get a proper Kindle.

BOb

Border's doesn't take returns on the Sony Reader for any reason. It's in plain sight on the Reader display in my Border's, and when I bought mine I asked (not that I really thought that I would want to return it) and was told in no uncertain terms that they can't take any returns on the Reader.

Nice Job govna... now that you have a new in box unit, you can take it back and return it. <G>

Then you can get a proper Kindle.

BOb

i doubt it's still in the box. he's had it for hours now.

Elsi, Thank you for posting those pictures of the Kindle. Those bottom three inches (or is it four inches) with the keyboard section make it appear to be much less comfortable for my hand than the Sony Reader is. Since I know the screen size is the same as the Sony Reader, I can judge fairly accurately that my first thoughts are probably valid.

I really appreciate your taking the time to take those pictures and to post them! Thanks!

Hello there,

My opinion.

Living in Spain, it is impossible for a guy to buy books from Sony. He won't have a warranty either. The solution for e-books seems to pass by buying some .lit, if available, and then hack the DRM and convert it via Calibre or similar.:eek::eek:

These companies have to be kidding. The best, fastest and most efficient way to get a book nowadays, for a guy around here, is emule or similar. Yep, not legal (not illegal either, depending where), but when it is not a matter of paying, but of going crazy in the process of getting to read certain book and achieving it, emule is a straight forward solution. And that is the only way when the books you want to read are unavailable at shops straight away (try to buy e-books in Spanish, for example).

Search for a book, download it, edit, convert it and read it. One wouldn't mind if paying was in the process. What can they expect when getting the book for free is so much easier and faster than buying it? Are they dumb? Are we dumb?

About the copyright and the illegality of this, as much as we can find it fair to pay for it once, it is not so fair when you buy something a 2nd time. Many of us bought LPs then cassettes (for my car) then CDs of the same album and no company refunded us a single cent, when we should just have paid the value of the hardware. we bought VHS and then DVD, the same. We have books repeated in paperback and hard cover and if we want to have the e-book we have to pay again as though it was the first time.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I tell you plainly, many people will buy when they make it easy, comfortable and add some extra value to my paying. They will never pay twice for the same piece of info, specially if it is digital, and they will care about the companies' rights when they care about ours. We seem to accept that the customer is the weak end of the equation and we jump once and again through the fire ring whenever they say hop. Well, that is not so.

This people don't care if Borders keeps their rewards, if Sony and Amazon have non compatible documents so they have to stick to one of them. They don't care for buying and de-DRMing when they can get un-DRM'd for free and faster. These companies are like vultures using, abusing, and ignoring their main source of income, their customers.

Don't get me wrong, I have been years spending my weekend pay in reading, and later on it has been my main stable expenditure. I buy paper essays regularly and a couple of p-books every month. The essays are for me. The books are for my wife. I am an active customer. And will be. But I am so astonished at the effort you people make to actually pay for the books...

The day they tell us we can buy a book once, error free (which they are not now), fully editable (except contents), and that we can download it in any format, any time and as many times as we care to, all this people will consider buying.

In the meantime, only if they can't help it.

In Spain there is a canon on DVDs, CDs VHSs and Cassettes. In case you might plan on recording some copyrighted material onto these platforms, they charge you with a quantity of money. You are paying copyrights for your own Holidays pictures. It is simply preposterous. Again, copying a book, LP or DVD is not illegal if not done for making money.

Well, that is my point of view of all this, more or less.

how much Borders sell Sony 505?