A search here for Baen Free Library brings up too many results to be immediately useful, as does SF or SciFi recommendations, etc. So I'd like to add to the noise of course, by starting a new thread.

Let's limit it to the current Free Library offerings. I want top 5 recommendations from everyone. If it helps, I'm a fan of the following SF authors in no particular order, so anyone who writes as well would be a great find for me:

1. Greg Bear, Eon and Eternity were both mind-blowing
2. Vernor Vinge, his Zones of Thoughts novels were excellent, best-realized aliens I've yet read
3. Neal Stephenson - Snow Crash, Diamond Age? Wow.
4. William Gibson - we're not worthy

I like Asimov, of course, but more from nostalgia. I don't need to re-read the Foundation series or the Robots of the Dawn series... I read them 50 times as a teenager.

I loved Old Man's War by Scalzi.

That should be enough to give SF readers a good idea of what I like. So, what should I download from BFL and read next?

Based on Vinge, I would recommend the RCN series by David Drake. There are certain similarities in writing style that might appeal to you. I don't know quite how to put it.

The first novel is With The Lightnings.

P.S. After you try it, tell me if you like it or not.

Will do, thanks.

Baen's author list isn't a good fit with your current favorites, but I would read the following five first:
1632 by Eric Flint
On Basilisk Station by David Weber
Oath of Swords by David Weber
Fallen Angels by Jerry Pournelle, Larry Niven and Michael Flynn
The Mountains of Mourning by Lois McMaster Bujold
The first three are each the 1st in a series. Fallen Angels is a one-off, but worth reading as are the non-free Oath of Fealty and The Mote in God's Eye. The Mountains of Mourning is the only free Bujold, it is a good, but perhaps not the best, intro to the Vorkosigan Saga.

Ok, here are mine, based on what you said you liked.

1. The Course of Empire by Eric Flint and Kathy Wentworth. A further alien contact story, or actually, a "how to live with alien" story. I think this one takes some new thoughts about how humans might fit with another race. A stand-alone novel (at least to date)

2. There Will Be Dragons but John Ringo. While the main story appears to be a "return to old/lower technology" story, the details about how such things are possible really make the technology appear to be magic. There are 4 books in this series to date.

3. A Hymn before Battle by John Ringo. a completely different alien contact story, with completely different technology, but this one does a different job of integrating alien tech with human tech. Lots of follow up books that extend the story in different ways, and with co-authors. Lots of military battles and such.

4. The Mountains of Mourning by Lois Bujold. This one won a Hugo, and EVERYONE needs to read Lois. The Vorkosiverse doesn't have non-human aliens, but the human ones are alien enough. Lots of other books in this series, and Lois is currently working on another one. (she only finishes about one book per year.)

5. Redliners by David Drake. A good story of hard core military people interacting with true civilians. This one stands alone, but there's lots by David Drake available.

Now for MY tastes, I'd add a couple more, just because they start a good series, but they're more fantasy and/or alternate history


6. 1632 by Eric Flint (but realize that this scenario has been further developed by half a dozen novels, 2 Ring of Fire anthologies and 16 or more editions of the Grantville Gazette, an online-only magazine (although a few of the earlier gazettes have also been printed on paper.)

7. An Oblique Approach by Eric Flint and David Drake (Drake did the original outline and consulted, Flint wrote most of the words) Starts a 5 book series of alternate history.

8. On Basilisk Station by David Weber. Starts the Honor Harrington saga, space opera with lots of technical detail that makes it feel like Napoleonic naval warfare.

9. The Shadow of the Lion by Flint, Freer, and Lackey. a good collaboration on the beginning of a fantasy series, 3 books currently but contracts for at least 3 more. Some alternate history leanings, but magic works.

10. oh, the hell with it. read the whole library!

I'm of wallcraft's opinion, Baen doesn't really have cyberpunk or hard SF authors like those you mentioned. Still, here's my recommendations in addition to those mentioned.

Tinker by Wen Spencer (not in Free Library but available on Baen CDs).
Mother of Demons by Eric Flint.
Mutineer's Moon, and The Apocalypse Troll by David Weber.
Sheepfarmer's Daughter by Elizabeth Moon.
A lot of Keith Laumer's books are available in Free Library. My favorites are Dinosaur's Beach (included in Odyssey) and The Great Time Machine Hoax (from The Lighter Side).

Check also Baen CDs (http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/) for additional free Baen books.

"Sunrise Alley" by Catherine Asaro
"Black on Black" & the sequel "Stars Over Stars" by K. D. Wentworth
"West of Honor" by Jerry Pournelle
"The Shadow of the Lion" by Mercedes Lackey, Eric Flint and Dave Freer
"Star Soldiers" & "Time Traders by Andre Norton :book2:

I'm not sure that Baen is a publisher whose taste matches yours.

While I've enjoyed most of the books listed so far, they are more martial in tone than your listed favourites. Also, a lot of them lean towards American conservative ideals, which also doesn't seem to feature in your list of faves.

That said, you might try:

Wizard's Bane, and Wizardry Compiled by Rick Cook

In this series, magic is activated by a process very similar to computer programming. A computer hacker from our universe finds out that he is a master wizard in the magical universe.

In writing style, Rick Cook reminds me a bit of Rudy Rucker.


Fallen Angels by Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, and Michael Flynn

No world-shaking new concepts, and not much computing, this is a story of astronauts fallen from space into a US which has turned its back on scientific research and intellectualism. This is an "if this goes on" tale somewhat in the vein of Heinlein's Future History.

I assume you are familiar with both Niven and Pournelle.

I'd like to widen the search of this thread.

What is your "Top Ten List" of freely available Sci-Fi/Fantasy. Free could be Public Domain, Creative Commons, or Copyrighted (Bean, etc) doesn't matter, as long as it can be legally obtained in the US/Canada for nothing more than the price of download time?

BOb

We already have those threads, don't we? I wanted recommendations specifically from the Baen Free Library. Let's not widen this topic. :emotifcation:

We already have those threads, don't we? I wanted recommendations specifically from the Baen Free Library. Let's not widen this topic. :emotifcation:

If so, please point the way I couldn't find one limited to free stuff. I was going to start another thread but thought it would be to close in topic to this here one here.

BOb

[Pull yourself together man!]

I dunno, search for SF or start another thread. Or co-opt this one, if you really want to. I'm not a moderator, I just sling my opinions with considerable force.

And I'm done with this thread anyway, since I got a lot of good recommendations. Maybe we could let a thread die a natural death for once?

Mike Brotherton's _Star Dragon_ (Creative Commons licensing) is quite good, but it's Hard SF (w/ some sexual content).

William
(who did the .pdf version available at www.mikebrotherton.com )

Mike Brotherton's _Star Dragon_ (Creative Commons licensing) is quite good, but it's Hard SF (w/ some sexual content).

William
(who did the .pdf version available at www.mikebrotherton.com (http://www.mikebrotherton.com) )

Sounds good actually. Not sure what "hard SF" is. Does that mean alot of technobabble? And, I like me some sex. :rolleyes:

Is this a stand alone book. So much SF/Fantasy is multi-book series and the "other" ones are not free or findable as ebooks.

BOb

_Star Dragon_ ... available at www.mikebrotherton.com ) Interesting web site, but FeedBooks has a better formatted MOBI version and the version right here on MobileRead also has the cover.

I have not been able to Filter FeedBooks to only list Science Fiction Novels but browsing FeedBooks by Type=Novels and Order=Year gets only novels and mostly Science Fiction for the 1st couple of pages.

"Sunrise Alley" by Catherine Asaro
"Black on Black" & the sequel "Stars Over Stars" by K. D. Wentworth
"West of Honor" by Jerry Pournelle
"The Shadow of the Lion" by Mercedes Lackey, Eric Flint and Dave Freer
"Star Soldiers" & "Time Traders by Andre Norton :book2:
Don't bother with Time Traders as the entire series is not available as eBooks since the series switched publishers.

pilotbob, yes, it's a stand-alone book.

wallcraft, ``better formatted'' is arguable --- the .pdf I made doesn't have any stacks, orphans or widows, and if read 2-up (I formatted it initially for my Fujitsu Stylistic 2300) the facing pages base align.

William

wallcraft, ``better formatted'' is arguable --- the .pdf I made doesn't have any stacks, orphans or widows, and if read 2-up (I formatted it initially for my Fujitsu Stylistic 2300) the facing pages base align. I was comparing MOBI versions, i.e. better formatted than the MOBI version on the web site (which for example has no TOC).

Interesting web site, but FeedBooks has a better formatted MOBI version and the version right here on MobileRead also has the cover.


I downloaded it from feedbooks right onto my Kindle. Now that is pretty sweet. I am liking this Kindle. Perhaps soon I will even start reading a book on it.

Searching the feedbooks text file doesn't seem to work for me though.


I have not been able to Filter FeedBooks to only list Science Fiction Novels but browsing FeedBooks by Type=Novels and Order=Year gets only novels and mostly Science Fiction for the 1st couple of pages.

Perhaps they could break out the guides by Genre. I would like to have an SF only and Fantasy only guide for Feedbooks.

BOb

I downloaded it from feedbooks right onto my Kindle. Now that is pretty sweet. I am liking this Kindle. Perhaps soon I will even start reading a book on it.

Searching the feedbooks text file doesn't seem to work for me though.



Perhaps they could break out the guides by Genre. I would like to have an SF only and Fantasy only guide for Feedbooks.

BOb

I haven't enabled a way to filter a book using multiples types yet.

For the search, you need to wait a little while before your Kindle finish indexing everything. It'll work once it's indexed.

If you'd like to browse SF or Fantasy only, I'd recommend using the mobile website instead. Inside the Kindle Guide if you click on Fantasy or Science-Fiction you'll be redirected to the right page, or you could use the browser and open the following URI: http://feedbooks.mobi

Although you can't filter with multiple types while browsing, you can already make advanced search queries. In the search field you could for example enter: type:"Fantasy" author:"Kadrey"
You could enter multiple types this way too. I need to extend the number of results you can get from the search (I'll let the user select a value and use multiple pages to display them).

For the search, you need to wait a little while before your Kindle finish indexing everything. It'll work once it's indexed.


Yep, that was it. After I had it on the Kindle for a while, I searched for the _Star Dragon_ book reco above and was able to download it, using Wispernet, SWEET! That is the first book I am reading on my Kindle.


If you'd like to browse SF or Fantasy only, I'd recommend using the mobile website instead. Inside the Kindle Guide if you click on Fantasy or Science-Fiction you'll be redirected to the right page, or you could use the browser and open the following URI: http://feedbooks.mobi


Great, I'll give it a try. Great website and service. How do you guys afford the time and money to run these great free sites. I hope you make loads of money off adds.

BOb

Don't bother with Time Traders as the entire series is not available as eBooks since the series switched publishers.

The first four, written between 1958 and 1963, (The Time Traders, Galactic Derelict, The Defiant Agents, and Key Out of Time) are all available as free ebooks from www.feedbooks.com. The volume available at Baen as "Time Traders" is actually the first two of those books. The rest of the series, Firehand, Echoes in Time, and Atlantis Endgame, were written between 1994 and 2002. Since anyone following the series had to wait 31 years between volumes four and five, I doubt it would do much harm to *start* reading! :) The rest will probably be ebooks before another 30 years has passed.

Andre Norton's SF and the Heinlein juveniles were what got me into SF in the late 1960s - I can still picture that particularly exciting shelf in the local children's library. Haven't seen them for years, but they're now on the virtual read-pile of my iLiad. I wonder if I'll still enjoy them?

Andre Norton's SF and the Heinlein juveniles were what got me into SF in the late 1960s - I can still picture that particularly exciting shelf in the local children's library. Haven't seen them for years, but they're now on the virtual read-pile of my iLiad. I wonder if I'll still enjoy them?

You still _might_ enjoy them. I'm reading Verne's "Mysterious Island" (one of my favourites from younger days) and literally cringe in some places :stunned:
Hope you enjoy your books

DrS

Baen have recently released quite a few of Heinlein's "juvenile" books. I still find them great reading, personally - echoes of a more "innocent" age. Having said that, though, I'm a big fan of juvenile fiction anyway, so others might not share my tastes.

The first four, written between 1958 and 1963, (The Time Traders, Galactic Derelict, The Defiant Agents, and Key Out of Time) are all available as free ebooks from www.feedbooks.com. The volume available at Baen as "Time Traders" is actually the first two of those books.

Baen also have "Time Traders II" which contains "The Defiant Agents" and "Key Out of Time".

Baen also have "Time Traders II" which contains "The Defiant Agents" and "Key Out of Time".

I've started reading the Baen Books version of Time Traders, and discovered that it's been revised for this edition, as compared with the old out-of-copyright version available on feedbooks. Just minor things -- the bad guys are no longer the Soviets, but a resurgeant "Greater Russia", and there are rather less atomic-powered vehicles (probably a good thing!). Presumably this is to make them tie in better with the new volumes; it certainly makes them feel less dated. Volume 6, Echoes in Time, is available as an ebook, though not from Baen (I've spotted it on Fictionwise and Books On Board), but not volumes 5 and 7. :smack:

I've started reading the Baen Books version of Time Traders, and discovered that it's been revised for this edition, as compared with the old out-of-copyright version available on feedbooks. Just minor things -- the bad guys are no longer the Soviets, but a resurgeant "Greater Russia", and there are rather less atomic-powered vehicles (probably a good thing!). Presumably this is to make them tie in better with the new volumes; it certainly makes them feel less dated.

That's not necessarily the reason for revision. The out-of-copyright versions of "modern" SF are almost always the original magazine stories for which copyright was not renewed. It was entirely normal for the stories to be re-written somewhat when republished as novels (which are still under copyright protection). You'll find the same if you compare the magazine versions of E.E.Smith's early "Lensman" books (for which the magazine copyright wasn't renewed) with the novel versions of the same stories.

That's not necessarily the reason for revision. The out-of-copyright versions of "modern" SF are almost always the original magazine stories for which copyright was not renewed. It was entirely normal for the stories to be re-written somewhat when republished as novels (which are still under copyright protection). You'll find the same if you compare the magazine versions of E.E.Smith's early "Lensman" books (for which the magazine copyright wasn't renewed) with the novel versions of the same stories.

I'm pretty sure in this case that the revisions are recent -- the collapse of the Soviet Union, the moon landings, and our failure to continue manned space exploration after the moon landings are all in the Baen edition from 2000, and the previous edition was published in 1979, when nobody much was predicting the end of Soviet power.

I'm pretty sure in this case that the revisions are recent -- the collapse of the Soviet Union, the moon landings, and our failure to continue manned space exploration after the moon landings are all in the Baen edition from 2000, and the previous edition was published in 1979, when nobody much was predicting the end of Soviet power.

Baen does seem to like to do that with the older fiction that they acquire, which is why the manuscripts for the original Godwin and Schmitz stories that were changed a lot were presented for free on Baen's site.

Most seem to be relatively minor edits, tho.

Jason

Time Traders while a good series is one of those really annoying series. You can get into it and then you hit a brick wall as you'll then have to purchase pBook editions as not all are eBooks. If you don't mind, go for it. If you mind, give the series a miss. I've read the first two books so far and am still deciding if I want to continue.

I'm also kinda lost on where to start with the Baen freebies, and it certainly doesn't help that I've read nothing by any of the authors listed on there. Lately I've really been into Philip José Farmer, John Brunner, Harry Harrison, and Roger Zelazny. If anyone could recommend something new for me based on this, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

I'm also kinda lost on where to start with the Baen freebies, and it certainly doesn't help that I've read nothing by any of the authors listed on there. Lately I've really been into Philip José Farmer, John Brunner, Harry Harrison, and Roger Zelazny. If anyone could recommend something new for me based on this, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

A good way to start would be to try to read one book by each author. For some authors, you should try one book from each series. Some have written both SF and Fantasy, so if you don't like the SF by an author you might like the fantasy.

I'm also kinda lost on where to start with the Baen freebies, and it certainly doesn't help that I've read nothing by any of the authors listed on there. Lately I've really been into Philip José Farmer, John Brunner, Harry Harrison, and Roger Zelazny. If anyone could recommend something new for me based on this, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

Based on what you like about Harry Harrison (ie: are you a Make Room, Make Room kind of guy? Deathworld? Stainless Steel Rat?), you could try:

Any of the collections of Keith Laumer (but stay away from The Road to Damascus which is a Bolo story by John Ringo; I thought it was a stinker). Laumer often writes science fiction with a touch of humour and social commentary (like Harrison) although he also does great cliffhanger action. His Retief stories are sort of a commentary on Big Power meddling in small states.

Interstellar Patrol and Pandora's Legions are collections of related Christopher Anvil stories which are also pretty good. Beware that you need to read Pandora's Legions as a collection of short stories. I think Eric Flint (the editor) tried to stitch them together, but it feels clumsy if you read it as a novel. These stories are less action oriented that the Laumer ones and are more in the problem solving vein (like, say Larry Niven short stories)


If you like Harrison more in his Deathworld style, then I think you could try With The Lightnings by David Drake (and its sequels) which is about a young man in the navy who gets caught up in a war (much better written than the Harrington books imo)

They have a Fred Saberhagen "Bezerker" collection up. I'm sure that needs no introduction.


If you like Zelazny, you might also like Mercedes Lackey.

Any of the collections of Keith Laumer (but stay away from The Road to Damascus which is a Bolo story by John Ringo; I thought it was a stinker).

Interesting how different things appeal to different people. "Road to Damascus" is one of my favourite SF books. Superb, IMHO.

Interesting how different things appeal to different people. "Road to Damascus" is one of my favourite SF books. Superb, IMHO.

Hmmm... My problem with it is mainly that I didn't notice the author was John Ringo until too late. I thought it was going to be a Bolo story. But it turned out to be a John Ringo story that borrowed the name Bolo for one of the main characters :angry:

I don't generally mind Ringo all that much; his plotlines are usually exciting and he writes battles well. But some of his writing ticks really started to bother me after reading a few of his novels.

For example, his habit of injecting contemporary US conservative views into his science fiction novels is up at L.Neil Smith levels of annoying. And the way he puts domination into his sex scenes is awful. I'd love it if it were done in a sexy way, but he wastes so much time explaining sub/dom that it comes off more like a Wikipedia article instead. In one of his books he is gimmicky enough to have one of his characters make fun of him as an author of trashy potboilers. Ugh!

Actually I kind of like Ringo. I have the "Road to Damascus" but hadn't read it because I lose interest in the Bolo books if I read too many of them. I guess now I'll have to read this one.

I'm also kinda lost on where to start with the Baen freebies, and it certainly doesn't help that I've read nothing by any of the authors listed on there. Lately I've really been into Philip José Farmer, John Brunner, Harry Harrison, and Roger Zelazny. If anyone could recommend something new for me based on this, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

Some recommendations:

Fantasy:
* Sheepfarmer's Daughter (http://www.webscription.net/pc-587-1-sheepfarmers-daughter.aspx)
* Wizard's Bane (http://www.baen.com/library/rcook.htm)
* The Sea Hag (http://www.webscription.net/p-363-the-sea-hag.aspx)

SF -- non-human sentient races:
* Black on Black (http://www.webscription.net/pc-33-1-black-on-black.aspx)
* Stars over Stars (http://www.webscription.net/pc-402-1-stars-over-stars.aspx) (sequel to Black on Black)
* Genellan: Planetfall (http://www.webscription.net/p-762-genellan-planetfall.aspx)

SF -- Navy in space
* On Basilisk Station (http://www.webscription.net/pc-304-1-on-basilisk-station.aspx)
* With the Lightnings (http://www.webscription.net/pc-469-1-with-the-lightnings.aspx)

Hmmm... My problem with it is mainly that I didn't notice the author was John Ringo until too late. I thought it was going to be a Bolo story. But it turned out to be a John Ringo story that borrowed the name Bolo for one of the main characters :angry:

I don't generally mind Ringo all that much; his plotlines are usually exciting and he writes battles well. But some of his writing ticks really started to bother me after reading a few of his novels.

For example, his habit of injecting contemporary US conservative views into his science fiction novels is up at L.Neil Smith levels of annoying. And the way he puts domination into his sex scenes is awful.

Yes, I agree with you about the politics - his political views are diametrically opposed to my own! - and in some of his books the "kinky sex" scenes are just ghastly (the "Ghost" series I wouldn't touch with the proverbial barge-pole), but I don't recall there being any such scenes in "Road to Damascus". He's such a good writer that I can forgive him his political views, even though I regard them as being utterly wrong.

When browsing the Baen site, I was curious about John Ringo's books. But then I've read this article/opinion and I thought I should just pass it. Now Harry T says it's one of the BEST... I'm confused.

Here's the article "OH JOHN RINGO NO": http://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html?format=light

What do you think of it?

When browsing the Baen site, I was curious about John Ringo's books. But then I've read this article/opinion and I thought I should just pass it. Now Harry T says it's one of the BEST... I'm confused.

Here's the article "OH JOHN RINGO NO": http://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html?format=light

What do you think of it?

This is an excellent review of the series. Even Mr. Ringo thinks this is a great review. He posted a reply on the second page of comments.

When browsing the Baen site, I was curious about John Ringo's books. But then I've read this article/opinion and I thought I should just pass it. Now Harry T says it's one of the BEST... I'm confused.

Here's the article "OH JOHN RINGO NO": http://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html?format=light

What do you think of it?

Please go back and read what I said more carefully - I said that I liked "Road to Damascus", but that "Ghost" and its sequels are absolutely dreadful and that I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole. They portray an ultra-right-wing xenophobic attitude which I find frankly disturbing, mixed up with extremely unpleasant "hard core" sex scenes which I find revolting.

I like most of Mr. Ringo's stuff, but "Ghost" and its sequels are horrible books. Avoid! I honestly cannot imagine who they are written to appeal to, but I don't think I'd like to meet the sort of person who shares the viewpoint that they portray.

Harry, go read that review. Please.

I have done. I still think that these are truly revolting books. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. Did you actually enjoy reading "Ghost"?

No. But I did enjoy reading the review.

Try the book and let us know what you think of it :).

Oh, I've read those books. Not gonna do it again.

Some recommendations:

Fantasy:
* Sheepfarmer's Daughter (http://www.webscription.net/pc-587-1-sheepfarmers-daughter.aspx)
* Wizard's Bane (http://www.baen.com/library/rcook.htm)
* The Sea Hag (http://www.webscription.net/p-363-the-sea-hag.aspx)

SF -- non-human sentient races:
* Black on Black (http://www.webscription.net/pc-33-1-black-on-black.aspx)
* Stars over Stars (http://www.webscription.net/pc-402-1-stars-over-stars.aspx) (sequel to Black on Black)
* Genellan: Planetfall (http://www.webscription.net/p-762-genellan-planetfall.aspx)

SF -- Navy in space
* On Basilisk Station (http://www.webscription.net/pc-304-1-on-basilisk-station.aspx)
* With the Lightnings (http://www.webscription.net/pc-469-1-with-the-lightnings.aspx)

Fully concur on the SF books.

Yes, I agree with you about the politics - his political views are diametrically opposed to my own! - and in some of his books the "kinky sex" scenes are just ghastly (the "Ghost" series I wouldn't touch with the proverbial barge-pole), but I don't recall there being any such scenes in "Road to Damascus". He's such a good writer that I can forgive him his political views, even though I regard them as being utterly wrong.
I enjoyed Ghost, and the succeeding books in the series.

I don't consider the viewpoint xenophobic, though I can see where others might. I've met Ringo, and "xenophobic" is too simple a reading of where he's coming from. The BDSM I basically shrugged about. I know some people who are into that lifestyle, and Ringo has it more or less correct for a segment of that population. It just doesn't happen to be my kink.

Who was he writing it for? Himself. His publisher decided to take a flyer on it, and enough other folks liked it that it became a popular series.

I wouldn't call it SF (though you might stretch and call it Alternate History). It's action adventure thriller, with lots of combat and lots of sex. There's a market for both.

I was amused when I heard that Ringo's mother had written him out of her will because she recommended her son's book to patrons at her beauty salon, quite unaware of what sort of book it was, and was unpleasantly surprised when they told her. :p

(And if you look, I think you'll find most BDSM fiction published these days is written by female authors for a female audience, and tends to be shelved in the Romance section. In the genre, consider the popularity of Jacqueline Carey's "Kushiel" series. Her protagonist is a masochist, and Carey has gotten complaints from female readers that she doesn't go far enough, and tends to have the action take place behind closed doors and not explicitly described. The series is popular enough that Tor has an editor specifically looking for more books like that.)
______
Dennis

The blue one, next to the fish.

(I thought that comment might find interesting new contexts within this thread.)

(And if you look, I think you'll find most BDSM fiction published these days is written by female authors for a female audience, and tends to be shelved in the Romance section. In the genre, consider the popularity of Jacqueline Carey's "Kushiel" series. Her protagonist is a masochist, and Carey has gotten complaints from female readers that she doesn't go far enough, and tends to have the action take place behind closed doors and not explicitly described. The series is popular enough that Tor has an editor specifically looking for more books like that.)
I couldn't finish Kushiel's Dart, and it wasn't really the BDSM stuff that was offputting so much as the fact that the entire universe conspired to beat up on poor Phèdre. My emotional reaction was much like when I read Lord Foul's Bane. I just couldn't like the main character.

I couldn't finish Kushiel's Dart, and it wasn't really the BDSM stuff that was offputting so much as the fact that the entire universe conspired to beat up on poor Phèdre. My emotional reaction was much like when I read Lord Foul's Bane. I just couldn't like the main character.
I understand the problem. I read the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant way back, and liked it, I think, because it wasn't Yet Another Tolkien Clone. I didn't find Covenant as annoying as many have, but I didn't find the second series based on him as appealing as the first, and I've felt no urge to re-read either.

In general, I don't have a problem with violence, politics, or sex in books per se. I have a problem when any of them are gratuitous, or when the book becomes a forum to push a viewpoint. (Later H. G. Wells titles tended to suffer from this, as his Fabian Socialist leanings took front and center.)

The world in which things are set can also present issues. For example, I enjoy David Drake's RCN series featuring Daniel Leary and Signals Officer Adele Mundy, but I don't much like the Republic of Cinnabar. The capital, Xenos, is a snake-pit of feuding houses, and it's just as well for Daniel he spends most of his time elsewhere. Daniel is a good guy, but the cause he fights for is "good" only relative to the Alliance of Free Stars, and not a place I'd want to live.

Sympathetic main characters are an interesting problem. I don't have to like the main characters to enjoy the books, but I do have to understand them. For instance, I've read books where the villains are sympathetic: decent, honorable folks, doing their duty for a cause they believe in, who just happen to be working for the wrong side.

And believable villains are a whole other issue. I've read otherwise enjoyable works that failed because I couldn't believe the villains. They were crudely drawn, with no indication of what formed and motivated them. I always liked Robert A. Heinlein's dictum "No man is a villain in his own eyes". Keep that in mind, and make me understand what the villain wants and why, and how they came to be that way, and you'll have a lot better chance of holding my interest.

(Speaking of which, how many fantasy titles, starting with Tolkien, have a Great Enemy who is essentially a spoiled deity throwing a cosmic tantrum because he can't have his way? I love Tolkien with a passion, but Melkor/Morgoth's motives are envy and spite because he can't make his own music and do his own creation.)
______
Dennis

I couldn't finish Kushiel's Dart, and it wasn't really the BDSM stuff that was offputting so much as the fact that the entire universe conspired to beat up on poor Phèdre. My emotional reaction was much like when I read Lord Foul's Bane. I just couldn't like the main character.

New thread? Books with protagonists you couldn't like? S. M. Stirling's "The Change" novels. I hated them for so many very good reasons, but the main one was that I found each of the main characters intensely unlikeable. The only thing that kept me turning the pages was the faint hope that Juniper or Havel would meet a gruesome death on the next page. Spoiler: at least Stirling killed Havel. I cheered. Those books went immediately into the "Used Book Delivery Bin". I recall physically frisbee'ing the last one into the box with a nice thunk and a loud "so mote it be!"

The "Island in the Stream of Time" series was better, somewhat. Still childish/adolescent but with characters that were at least likable.

I started reading Stirling with a book about an alternate universe California, not part of either/any series, and I liked it, and hoped the other books he'd written would be as good. They weren't.

I started reading Stirling with a book about an alternate universe California, not part of either/any series, and I liked it, and hoped the other books he'd written would be as good. They weren't.
I know Steve slightly, and he's a nice enough chap, but I understand your point about unsympathetic characters.

I recently finished a batch of collaborations Stirling did with David Drake. I enjoyed them (though with some technical reservations), and didn't find the protagonists unlikeable, but I suspect that was Drake's doing rather than Stirling's.
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Dennis

I don't consider the viewpoint xenophobic, though I can see where others might. I've met Ringo, and "xenophobic" is too simple a reading of where he's coming from.

Where is he "coming from"? The way the books came across to me - and perhaps this is an American/British cultural difference - is as playing unashamedly on the "the Islamic world is out to destroy us" paranoia which a certain segment of the US population seems to be afflicted by. The UK is an extremely "multi-cultural society" and I have many friends who are Muslims. I would be deeply embarrased to have any of them read these books.

It's one thing to have nasty aliens in SF books (I have no issues with his "Posleen" books, and very much enjoyed them). I do have major issues when someone appears to be deliberately setting out to "demonize" all followers of a major world religion, and to cause them gross offence, which, to my mind, is what "Ghost" and its sequels do.

Sorry, but I just find them horribly offensive books.

Where is he "coming from"? The way the books came across to me - and perhaps this is an American/British cultural difference - is as playing unashamedly on the "the Islamic world is out to destroy us" paranoia which a certain segment of the US population seems to be afflicted by. The UK is an extremely "multi-cultural society" and I have many friends who are Muslims. I would be deeply embarrased to have any of them read these books.

It's one thing to have nasty aliens in SF books (I have no issues with his "Posleen" books, and very much enjoyed them). I do have major issues when someone appears to be deliberately setting out to "demonize" all followers of a major world religion, and to cause them gross offence, which, to my mind, is what "Ghost" and its sequels do.

Sorry, but I just find them horribly offensive books.

First, this series is _supposed_ to be over the top. Mr. Ringo has said repeatedly that the Ghost series is not in any way connected with reality. If needed for the story, he'd have the sun come up in the West.

Second, I want to understand where you are coming from. In your opinion, how much would the xenophobia have to be toned down before there is an element of truth?


P.S. There is a book I want you to read, Harry. It was in the April Webscriptions bundle. "Caliphate" by Tom Kratman

First, this series is _supposed_ to be over the top. Mr. Ringo has said repeatedly that the Ghost series is not in any way connected with reality. If needed for the story, he'd have the sun come up in the West.

Yes, I'm well aware of what he claims to be the reasons for writing it; I'm afraid that I still find them to be quite horrid books. I honestly wonder if Mr. Ringo is aware of how astonishingly offensive he is being in these books - that's why I wonder if it is a "cultural" thing and they come across as more "acceptable" to American readers.

Second, I want to understand where you are coming from. In your opinion, how much would the xenophobia have to be toned down before there is an element of truth?

I don't believe that making generalisations about nationalities or religions can ever be justified. Individuals are "terrorists"; nations / religions are not.

P.S. There is a book I want you to read, Harry. It was in the April Webscriptions bundle. "Caliphate" by Tom Kratman

I have it; haven't yet read it. I'll let you know what I think of it when I do.

I know I'm going to get pummelled for this, but hear me out. I loved the first five or six books of the Gor series by John Norman. The intensity of the world that was created was hypnotising. The characters were bold and well drawn. I became hooked.

Then, he veered off into a BDSM rant that has been going on for 20 books, while throwing in a few bones every now and again to further the plot arch that morons like myself were hooked on. The books were nearly unreadable becasue of all the wordy, uninteresting, gynophobic rants.

So, I have been reading the latest releases from FictionWise, because I want to find out what happened. They are fast reads, because whenever I see a paragraph that takes up the whole page (or three) I just thumb through until I get to the story again. I skip any chapter that is titled, "What occurred..."

The characters ahve become quite a bit more unidimensional, and the world is becoming quite a bit less interesting. I may not be able to finish the series, which saddens me a great deal.

I don't believe that making generalisations about nationalities or religions can ever be justified. Individuals are "terrorists"; nations / religions are not.



Now, this is interesting. I didn't want to list particular issues or viewpoints because (while I am aware of them) I do not beleive in them strong enough that I want to defend them.

This is something we can discuss, though. It sounds like you disagree with making judgments at all, not just the ones made by this author. I disagree, Harry. I think it's okay make judgments about other cultures.

I'm not going to argue about the number, but there is a sizable minority of people in the USA who don't share this belief of yours.

The US is big. Even people born in the US don't realize how big. To make a generalization such as "that must be a US viewpoint" is to make a BIG generalization. When I travel outside of the US, I encounter two viewpoints which I will call "NYC" and "LA". That's how most of the world tends to view Americans. Even many Americans do that, because that's also what the media does. The US is not NYC and LA, though. It's Nebraska, and Arizona, and Maine, and Oregon and Kansas, and Texas. Radically differing viewpoints. Heck, Texas is Dallas, and Houston, and Austin, and El Paso... each having radically different "viewpoints".

So I'm always suspicious when someone speaks about a "typically American" outlook. Which America?

That's why I said, Taylor, that I wondered if there might be a difference between the cultural perspective of British and American readers - I don't know if there is, or if there isn't. I'm certainly not making "generalisations" - that is, after all, precisely what I'm criticising Mr. Ringo for, so it would a little hypocritical of me to engage in such a practice myself :).

Oh, I understand. My post was "inspired" by yours, rather than being reactionary or accusatory. I haven't read the novels in question, so can't comment on them. From the reviews and descriptions, I can say that I have indeed met people who would love 'em.

So I'm always suspicious when someone speaks about a "typically American" outlook. Which America?
The one reflected in mainstream media.
The US is big. Even people born in the US don't realize how big. To make a generalization such as "that must be a US viewpoint" is to make a BIG generalization. When I travel outside of the US, I encounter two viewpoints which I will call "NYC" and "LA". That's how most of the world tends to view Americans. Even many Americans do that, because that's also what the media does. The US is not NYC and LA, though. It's Nebraska, and Arizona, and Maine, and Oregon and Kansas, and Texas. Radically differing viewpoints. Heck, Texas is Dallas, and Houston, and Austin, and El Paso... each having radically different "viewpoints".
Agreed. And 40 years ago, each of these areas were much more different from each other than they are today. That's because the majority of Americans consume their news from the same national outlets -- the major networks, CNN, and the newpaper syndicates. The regional perspective is dwindling to some extent.

On the day that the US attacked Iraq, I was flying from the US to England. When I took off, there were rumors of war. When I landed, it was a fact. For the first 4 weeks of the conflict, I was able to view the BBC and other European news broadcasts as well as the CNN International channel carried on the hotel television. It was quite interesting to see the differences in what got covered -- even though the UK troops were allied with the US -- and point of view was even more divergent.

I have to work very hard to expose myself to other points of view. Even with satellite TV, I still do not get unfiltered news from the rest of the world. I'd love to receive CBC news as well as BBC news (not BBC-America). At least some of the public radio stations carry the BBC radio news broadcasts -- often in the middle of the night, though. So the best way for me to see how world events are perceived elsewhere is to use the Internet. I believe, however, that most Americans rely on television for their news.

Now, this is interesting. I didn't want to list particular issues or viewpoints because (while I am aware of them) I do not beleive in them strong enough that I want to defend them.

This is something we can discuss, though. It sounds like you disagree with making judgments at all, not just the ones made by this author. I disagree, Harry. I think it's okay make judgments about other cultures.


I didn't express myself very well, Nate; permit me to try and clarify.

I have absolutely no problem with criticising cultures or governments. For example, I am perfectly willing to say that I very strongly believe that the current war in Iraq is illegal and immoral, and I strongly condemn the British and American governments for their involvements in it.

What I believe is unacceptable however - and this is what extremists of all varieties do - is to extend that and say "I hate what the British government is doing, so it's fine for me to hate all Britons", and to commit acts of terrorism against Britons using that as a justification. That was the attitude of the suicide bombers who caused such carnage in London a few years ago, and I regard it as completely morally unjustifyable.

Now, to return to books and be at least a little on-topic, that is just the attitude that Mr. Ringo has embodied in the central character (I can't use the word "hero") of "Ghost" and its sequels - a fanatical extremist who "hates" and kills people whose "crime" is to be a citizen of a nation or a member of a religious group that he (the character, that is) despises. I find that attitude completely morally repellant.

Now I'm certainly not saying that the views of the protagantist of "Ghost" represent the personal views of Mr. Ringo. For all I know, he might have deliberately set out to write a book with a completely repellant central character; if that was his aim, he's succeeded admirably. What I will say is that I get no pleasure from reading such a book, and could never recommend it to anybody.

Where is he "coming from"? The way the books came across to me - and perhaps this is an American/British cultural difference - is as playing unashamedly on the "the Islamic world is out to destroy us" paranoia which a certain segment of the US population seems to be afflicted by. The UK is an extremely "multi-cultural society" and I have many friends who are Muslims. I would be deeply embarrased to have any of them read these books.
I know some folks who would like the BDSM stuff, and others who would be deeply offended. I don't recommend the series to the latter. By the same token, I'm not going to recommend them to Muslims. But I'm not embarrassed by them. I didn't write them.

It's one thing to have nasty aliens in SF books (I have no issues with his "Posleen" books, and very much enjoyed them). I do have major issues when someone appears to be deliberately setting out to "demonize" all followers of a major world religion, and to cause them gross offence, which, to my mind, is what "Ghost" and its sequels do.

Sorry, but I just find them horribly offensive books.
Harry, from where I sit, this isn't really about Islam at all. But saying why I think so will take a bit while I explain the assumptions I make. Patience, please. There's a pot of something at the end of this rainbow. Whether it's a pot of gold or a chamber pot is up to you.

Different people in different places have different cultures, and see the world in very different ways. One of the most common mistakes people make is assuming others are just like them. Not so, and often tragically not so.

Culture is sometimes defined as "everything we know and do", and that's true as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. Culture is like the proverbial iceberg: 90% of it is invisible, happening on an unconscious level and handled by reflex. Culture is learned by osmosis growing up, as the child observes and imitates the behavior of adults around it. The model I use has culture as an extended form of communication. Cultural patterns evolve to cope with the environment in which a society exists, and many we find inexplicable are there because they once contributed to the survival of the sociey that practices them.

Animal behaviorists have the concept of the "action chain". An action chain may be thought of as an extended reflex. It is triggered by a stimulus, and proceeds through a set of steps in a particular order to produce a result. Mating behavior is an example of an action chain. So is nest building. Two key points apply here: first, if all steps in the chain are not carried out, in the defined order, the result does not occur. Second, animals are not capable of "picking up where they left off". If you interrupt an animal in the middle of an action chain, it must start over from the beginning.

There is pretty conclusive evidence that action chains exist in human behavior, too. To give a pertinent example:

During the later stage of WWII, hundreds of thousands of American GIs were bivouacked in Britain, waiting for the Joint Chiefs to set the date on which they would board their transports for the Normandy Invasion. Allied command got a number of complaints from a girls in a British village that had an American base nearby. The girls called the GIs "pushy" and "sex-crazed". The GIs called the girls prudes or whores. A little investigation revealed what was happening.

A GI would take a village girl on a date. Thinns would go well, and they would enjoy each other's company. When he took her back home, the GI would attempt to kiss the girl goodnight. The kiss, in Britan at the time, was a specifically erotic act, that did not occur until much later in the relationship. Culture as communication: the GI thought he was just conveying "That was fun! I like you! Let's do this again!" What the girl got from it was that she had to either scream and run or get ready to have sex. The actions chains in mating had the steps in a different order in Britain than they had in the US, and potentially tragic misunderstandings occurred.

This misunderstanding took place between two peoples with a common origin, shared language, and common history up until a century and a half or so earlier. Imagine the potential for disaster between cultures that don't have that common heritage, especially when the action chains involve "fight or flight" behavior and conflict resolution. Each side will do something expecting a particular response from the other, and not get it. Things will deteriorate rapidly, and the results won't be good.

The conflict between Israel and its Arab neighbors can be viewed in this fashion. Jews and Arabs are both semitic peoples, who consider themselves descended from a common ancestor (Abraham), and share the concepts that there is a single all powerful God, whose word is given in a holy book, and whose thoughts are communicated through prophets. They have similar languages and similar dietary and religious taboos. In biblical times, Jews and Arabs lived together in relative peace on a village level. Then came the destruction of the Temple and the Diaspora. The Jews scattered all over the world.

In the aftermath of World War II, many Jews were left without homes to return to, or with homes in places they didn't want to go back to, like Russia. The Allies had the question of how to handle hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees. For various reasons, some practical and some due to simple Antisemitism, the Allies didn't want them. Neither Britain, France, nor the United States were enthusiastic about providing a haven for hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews.

The UN fastened upon the idea set forth in the Balfour Declaration to carve a new Jewish state out of what had been Palestine, as a new homeland for the Jews. The partition was approved by the UN, the state of Israel was created, and Jews emigrated to it to create a homeland. Palestine had been a British protectorate, but the British were leaving, and Israel would be on its own.

The surrounding Arab states saw an opportunity in this. When the British left, they would invade and push the Jews into the sea, increasing thier own territories. The Jewish settlers recognized existing deeds, and most Palestinian Arabs living in what became Israel retained their homes. But the surrounding Arab states sent agents into Israel to tell the Arab population their land was about to become a battle ground, and that they might be wise to go elsewhere for the duration. They were told they would get more land when they returned after the Arab states were victorious. Many took the bait and left. The Arabs weren't victorious, and a large number of former residents of Israel were left homeless refugees, unable to return.

Arab culture features the concept of the mediator. When two Arabs have a dispute they cannot resolve between themselves, they go to see the mediator. The mediator may be a village elder, or imam, or tribal sheik. He is someone all agree will be impartial, and is empowered to listen to both sides and render a judgment which should be followed. This permits both sides in the dispute to back down without losing face, and avoids many conflicts. (The rabbi serves this function in many Jewish communities.)

There was no such mediator in the dispute over Palestine. A good deal of the Arab resentment over Israel centers on the fact that no one ever listened to their side of the story.

The Jews who returned to Israel after WWII were not the same Jews who had left nearly two thousand year before. Underlying cultural patterns had changed radically. Unconscious assumptions on each side about how the other thought and would react were untrue. An Arab general during one of the Israel/Arab conflicts commented "We aren't fighting Jews! We're fighting Europeans!" He was spot on. The culture of the Israeli settlers building the new state derived from Europe, not the middle east. They weren't at all the same people the Arabs used to live with.

You mave have noticed that Judaism and Islam aren't mentioned above. For good reason, because the underlying conflict isn't Jew vs. Muslim.

Religion governs what we believe. The culture in which we grow up determines how we express it. This is certainly true of Christianity, as witness the variety of beliefs, from Roman and Orthodox Catholic though a bewildering variety of Protestant sects. The US has continuing problems with fundamentalist Christians who take the Bible literally, believe that God created the heavens and the earth in six days of 24 hours each, and that this all happened a bit over 4,000 years ago. Any evidence to the contrary is the work of Satan.

Religious belief operates on a gut level, not a rational one. From where I sit, a lot of believers cherry pick scripture, selecting the bits that support and defend their particular biases, and ignoring or rejecting the others. Fundamentalist condemnation of homosexuality falls into this bucket. The underlying emotions are fear and loathing. The portions of scripture selected to support their position don't cause the position -- they simply allow them to justify what they already believe, and tell themselves it's OK because God says so.

There are as many schisms and flavors in Islam as there are in Christianity. Start with Sunni vs Shia, stemming from a dispute among the descendants of Mohammad over who rightfully inherited control of Islam, since Mohammad died without a son to be clear successor. There are also differences in underlying cultures. There is interesting evidence coming out that climate change long ago caused a split in the Arab peoples, with some (the Bedouins) remaining nomadic herders and adapting to the arid climate, while others settled around oases or migrated to more fertile areas and became agriculturalists, forming essentially two separate peoples with rather different viewpoints.

An old friend of mine (who is a Jew and an ardent conservative) thinks the conflict in the middle east is fundamentally a civil war between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims, and we simply happen to be caught in the middle. He makes a good case for it. Folks like Osamu Bin Laden are attempting to cast the conflict as a struggle between Islam and the West. From his point of view, it is. He champions a fundamentalist state organized on tribal lines with government by a hereditary aristocracy (The usual successor to a tribal sheik is his eldest son), and law based upon the sharia of Islam. This sort of culture is quite incompatible with that of the West. He sees Western influence as eroding the basics of his desired culture, and he's right, it is. I recall an interview with an old Imam in Saudi Arabia who lamented that the young men would go off to the west for schooling, and when they returned, they weren't interested in Islam any more.

So we are left with questions. Is it possible there are human cultures that are simply incompatible, and contact between them will inevitably result in violence, and the possible destruction of one or the other? In a multi-cultural society, how far do you go to accommodate practices of member cultures, and at what point do you draw the line and say "We don't do that here, and if you do, you can't live here!". How do you enforce that line once drawn? (As a horrible example, take clitoridectomy, practiced by some middle eastern and African cultures. Those who do so are Muslim, but Islam isn't the cause. The practice is rooted in the structure of the society. The reasons for it have been removed by technology, but cultural habits don't go away that simply. Cases of it pop up in the US once in a while among immigrant populations.)

Bottom line, I don't think Ringo is a xenophobe, not do I seem him as demonizing all Muslims. I think he sees a particular subset of the Muslim population who stem from cultures and hold beliefs that are fundamentally antithetical to ours, and that a peaceful resolution of conflict with them probably isn't possible.

Frankly, I think I agree.

Note: the concepts I use above aren't original. One of the most influential sets of books I read were the writings of Edward T. Hall, an anthropologist doing studies in comparative culture. Before he could meaningfully compare cultures, he and his research partner Norman Trager had to come up with a theory of culture, to define what functions culture fulfilled and what they were comparing. I read Hall, and a lot of pieces of a puzzle suddenly fell into place. See Hall's books _The Silent Language_, The Hidden Dimension_, _Beyond Culture_, and _The Dance of Life_, available in Doubleday Anchor trade paper editions. See also his website, at http://edwardthall.com/, and the Wikipedia entry for him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_T._Hall

Hall has been surprisingly missed by SF writers. I'd think his ideas would be naturals for SF and stories of alien contact and relations. The only SF author I know who drew upon Hall's work was the late Janet Kagan, particularly in her Tor novel, _Hellspark_.

If none of the above convinces you, I'm afraid we'll have to disagree.

Regards,
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Dennis

I know I'm going to get pummelled for this, but hear me out. I loved the first five or six books of the Gor series by John Norman. The intensity of the world that was created was hypnotising. The characters were bold and well drawn. I became hooked.
I won't pummel you, because I agree.

I have the first six or so of the Gor novels around somewhere. I'd call them space opera a-la Edgar Rice Burroughs. It you successfully buy the premise - that there is a "counter-Earth" hidden on the opposite side of the sun called Gor, carefully maintained there by the advanced science of the insectoid alien Priest-Kings, and that for centuries, people from Earth have been kidnapped and dropped upon Gor in a Priest-King experiment, they are a fun read. Norman's setting lets his hero encounter stuff drawn from all over Earth's history in his travels. Women are usually slaves on Gor, but this is a bit of cultural background that can be more or less accepted as part of the story. The biggest problems are the occasional massive expository lumps, such as the great sea battle which gets interrupted in the middle for a multi-page digression on Gorean shipbuilding and naval techniques. Aarrgghhhh.

But after about the first six books, the female slavery went from sub-plot to dominant element. The closer Tarl Cabot came to becoming the ideal Gorean male, the more shallow and one dimensional he became, and the less interests the plots held.

Norman was originally published by Ballantine Books, and switched after about the first six book to DAW Books. He's quite sure DAW didn't cancel the series for poor sales, and that they were doing well till the end. He believes he was cut because DAW founder Donald A. Wollheim died, and his daughter Betsy who took over and her senior editor, Sheila Wiliams, both simply objected to the slavery theme and refused to publish it on feminist grounds.

He may be right, but I'd stopped reading long before. I didn't stop because they were sexist or offensive. I stopped because they were boring.
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Dennis

The US is big. Even people born in the US don't realize how big. To make a generalization such as "that must be a US viewpoint" is to make a BIG generalization. When I travel outside of the US, I encounter two viewpoints which I will call "NYC" and "LA". That's how most of the world tends to view Americans. Even many Americans do that, because that's also what the media does. The US is not NYC and LA, though. It's Nebraska, and Arizona, and Maine, and Oregon and Kansas, and Texas. Radically differing viewpoints. Heck, Texas is Dallas, and Houston, and Austin, and El Paso... each having radically different "viewpoints".

So I'm always suspicious when someone speaks about a "typically American" outlook. Which America?
Precisely. There are something like seven distinct regional cultures in America, with rather radically different viewpoints and assumptions in a number of areas. I happen to live in NYC, but I travel enough to be aware that the regional culture I live in is not the one that obtains elsewhere.
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Dennis

That's why I said, Taylor, that I wondered if there might be a difference between the cultural perspective of British and American readers - I don't know if there is, or if there isn't. I'm certainly not making "generalisations" - that is, after all, precisely what I'm criticising Mr. Ringo for, so it would a little hypocritical of me to engage in such a practice myself :).
There certainly is, but you have to specify which cultural perspective you refer to.

I can think of one fundamental difference between Britain and the US, and it's related to size. Britain is a lot smaller than the US, with what I venture is a more homogeneous culture and population. You live in a multi-cultural area. So do I. But America is large enough that there are many places that aren't, with only a distant notion of other cultures. An old friend is an ordained Orthodox Catholic priest. She graduated from Union Theological Seminary in Princeton, NJ, a rather famous and influential institution over here. She described encountering seminary students from some of the "Bible Belt" areas of the Midwest who were genuinely surprised to discover Jews didn't have the devil horns they'd been told of as kids.

Folks from an area like that will see the world from a very different perspective than I do.
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Dennis