Standard touchscreen functionality for new eink stuff


Leading global ePaper display vendor PVI will announce new product Touch EPD in the 2008 Society of Information Display Exhibition in Los Angeles. “Touch Reader combines innovative touch panel technology and PVI’s existing e-paper product.” says PVI Chairman and CEO Scott Liu, “By humanizing e-paper’s user interface, we expect this new product to spur demands for e-books and solidify PVI’s leadership position in the global ePaper market.”
PVI is now the leading vendor for all the available e-book products in the world. Until now none of the major e-book reader products targeting on consumer electronics marker has combined the touch technology with e-paper. One of the strengths of ePaper is that, as a reflective display, reading it does not strain the eye the way reading a traditional computer screen would. However, because e-paper emits minimal backlighting, when combined with traditional resistive touch panels (which has the light throughput of only 80 – 85%), the book becomes too dark to read. Combining capacitive touch panels is also not ideal either, as the cost is too high and stylus handwriting recognition does not work.

http://www.pvi.com.tw/en/news/news_view.php?lists=8

Does anyone know that this means:

Combining capacitive touch panels is also not ideal either, as the cost is too high and stylus handwriting recognition does not work.

Wacom-type touch screens, such as are used on the iLiad and on Tablet PCs, can certainly be used for handwriting recognition. Is this not what's meant by "capacitive touch panels"?

Does anyone know that this means:



Wacom-type touch screens, such as are used on the iLiad and on Tablet PCs, can certainly be used for handwriting recognition. Is this not what's meant by "capacitive touch panels"?

Wikipedia knows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_screen#Capacitive

By "don't work", I assume they mean "don't work well". I've owned a couple of Tablet PCs. Handwriting recognition is something that has to work perfectly, or it isn't worth it. At first you think it does, you start to use it, and then things start to go "Point Blimfark", to borrow a phrase recently exposed here.

A few words are misinterpreted. Ah, no problem, I'll just "train" it a bit more. Then a bit more, then a bit more, before you realize you're in a Cassini fractal of irreducible error, and that you've spent so much time on this that you are thoroughly behind the curve on all those supposed productivity gains, and that you can type faster, anyway.

Then there is the "lag" factor, which you can only accommodate by retraining your brain to accept a temporal delay in the action/reaction feedback loop.

They "don't work".

Handwriting recognition is something that has to work perfectly, or it isn't worth it.

It can never "work perfectly", I don't think - or at least not if your handwriting is as bad as mine. I can't read my own handwriting a week after I've written something, so I wouldn't expect a machine to be able to :).

Seriously, I think that "perfection" is a rather unrealistic goal.

By "don't work", I assume they mean "don't work well". I've owned a couple of Tablet PCs. Handwriting recognition is something that has to work perfectly, or it isn't worth it. At first you think it does, you start to use it, and then things start to go "Point Blimfark", to borrow a phrase recently exposed here.

A few words are misinterpreted. Ah, no problem, I'll just "train" it a bit more. Then a bit more, then a bit more, before you release you're in a Cassini fractal of irreducible error, and that you've spent so much time on this that you are thoroughly behind the curve on all those supposed productivity gains, and that you can type faster, anyway.

Then there is the "lag" factor, which you can only accommodate by retraining your brain to accept a temporal delay in the action/reaction feedback loop.

They "don't work".

Oh, I don't know. I've got a tablet with Vista at work, now. Although, almost everybody is complaining about this OS - the included handwriting recognition is superb. Without any training, it recognized my terrible "spider crawlings" almost perfectly. Since I don't usually use handwriting, that "almost" didn't bother me. But, I was really surprised at the quality of recognition - it gave really a VERY low percentage of errors and you have no idea how terrible my handwriting looks (even to me - or should that be "to myself"?).
Usual disclaimers apply - not associated with MS just the usual unhappy customer ;-)

Cheers,
Klaus

See what you think in a month. Note - I'm not vested in my position. I'd love to hear that it works nowadays.

I use hardwriting recognition a lot on my iPaq. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.

Does anyone know that this means:



Wacom-type touch screens, such as are used on the iLiad and on Tablet PCs, can certainly be used for handwriting recognition. Is this not what's meant by "capacitive touch panels"?

I think they mean that a plastic stylus will not work with a capacitive touch panel rather than handwriting recognition itself (the assumption being that you will want to write with a plastic stylus so as not to scratch the display). The plastic stylus will work with the resistive touch panel but the light transmission is too low to use on a reflective display. If it is only 80% transmissive and the light has to pass through it twice then one third of the light is lost.

This is presumably what Astak will be using in its touch screen versions.

They are going to demonstrate the touch panel at SID International Symposium today and tomorrow. Anyone going to be there?

The zTouch 3.0 demo unit -- as well as a 15" point-of-sale device -- will be on display at the SID International Symposium, Seminar and Exhibition from May 20-22 at the Los Angeles Convention Center. F-Origin and PVI will be exhibiting the zTouch 3.0 demo unit at booth number 627 on the showroom floor. In addition, Scott Liu will be speaking at the Exhibitor Forum to explain the details and benefits of the F-Origin solution for PVI's ePaper displays. The forum, titled "A Human Interface for eReader -- PVI's Innovation in Making eReader more User Friendly," will take place in West Exhibit Hall B at 12:00 PM on May 20th.

They are going to demonstrate the touch panel at SID International Symposium today and tomorrow. Anyone going to be there?


Yes, I saw it in person. The touch screen is awesome!

Yes, I saw it in person. The touch screen is awesome!

Photos pleeeeeeeease!! :jump:

Yes, I saw it in person. The touch screen is awesome!

In what way does it differ from the iLiad's touch screen?

video 2008 display in tokoy :

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In what way does it differ from the iLiad's touch screen?

iLiad -> Wacom -> requires pen -> not pressure-sensitive.

video 2008 display in tokoy :

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Thanks, much appreciated. I am not sure if I am correct, but this appears to be an E Ink panel with Wacom technology. Not the same as what PVI has announced.

If the responsiveness works out, this would open an ebook device for a lot of non-ebook stuff. For enhancing the actual reading experience, not so much for me.

Handwriting recognition can work quite well --- Evernote's RitePen is amazingly good w/ a nice interface.

William

iLiad -> Wacom -> requires pen -> not pressure-sensitive.

It is pressure sensitive. The iLiad doesn't currently DO anything with the pressure information, but it is there.

I must admit that, for something like a bookreader, I prefer a "button driven" interface to one that involves touching the screen. I have an absolutely phobia about fingerprints on the screen - if I see a screen that's not absolutely spotless I have a compulsive urge to clean it! I'd hate to use a UI which involved pressing on the screen - I'd have to use a stylus and that would be a nuicance as far as I'm concerned. I far prefer hardware buttons.

It is pressure sensitive. The iLiad doesn't currently DO anything with the pressure information, but it is there.

I admit I am not 100% certain here, but I do believe that technically, the iLiad screen is not pressure sensitive. What it would require to process pressure information is a pressure sensitive stylus, which is different what PVI proposes here.

But the hardware can support it, right? If so then it's just a software support issue. Okay, a big issue. :shrug:

Well, depends on how you view it. The iLiad relies on the pressure information given by a special pen; it wouldn't work with any other object. The PVI solution discussed here doesn't need any "auxiliary" input device -- in this way the screen is fully pressure-sensitive-enabled.

Okay, if you want to split that hair, I can go follow the logic. :nice:

Okay, if you want to split that hair, I can go follow the logic. :nice:

It is not really splitting a hair. It is a pressure sensitive screen vs. a pressure sensitive stylus. Very different technologies to achieve similar results.

Dale

How much do we need to cram into a reading device? If the idea is to make a tablet computer out of an ereader, then a touch screen is a boon, but I am with Harry when it comes to readers: I want a clean screen and hardware buttons. I don't think there is enough margin room for me to scribble notes, so I would be better off making notes via a keyboard, as I do now on the Kindle. And writing on a screen is quite different from writing on paper: because of the smoothness the writing instrument slides a lot, something I don't like.

I love taking notes on the iLiad, and wish desperately that it had handwriting recognition as good as my Newton Messagepad 2000 had all those years ago (mostly for indexing purposes, so I could find what I've written). As far as I can tell, it's a software issue on the iLiad. I don't know of any Linux-based handwriting recognition packages at this point, free OR for sale. Switching to a "pressure-sensitive screen" instead of a "pressure-sensitive stylus" would not change that.

Does anyone know that this means:



Wacom-type touch screens, such as are used on the iLiad and on Tablet PCs, can certainly be used for handwriting recognition. Is this not what's meant by "capacitive touch panels"?


Capacitive touch panels are coated on top of the display, so it makes the e-paper display less attractive, it dims its contrast ratio. Also, capacitive touch panels cannot do pen input.

I admit I am not 100% certain here, but I do believe that technically, the iLiad screen is not pressure sensitive. What it would require to process pressure information is a pressure sensitive stylus, which is different what PVI proposes here.

My understanding is that the stylus supplied with the iLiad is not pressure sensitive. However, one can use an alternate Wacom stylus on the iLiad which DOES provide pressue information, and that information is then available to software. ie the iLiad "supports" pressure information.

Harry, I hate splitting that hair (hi Nat ;))), but your original question (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=187025#post187025) was not whether the iLiad could support pressure information (IF you had the right stylus and IF the software supported it), but how the iLiad screen differed from the PVI screen. Clearly, there is a difference, in that the iLiad would require auxiliary devices to receive this information (by itself, it knows nothing about pressure), whereas the PVI screen has the technology built-in.

Harry, I hate splitting that hair (hi Nat ;))), but your original question (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=187025#post187025) was not whether the iLiad could support pressure information (IF you had the right stylus and IF the software supported it), but how the iLiad screen differed from the PVI screen. Clearly, there is a difference, in that the iLiad would require auxiliary devices to receive this information (by itself, it knows nothing about pressure), whereas the PVI screen has the technology built-in.

I completely agree with you that there is a difference. The PVI screen senses pressure from the screen itself; in the iLiad the pressure information is supplied by the stylus. No arguments there.

Portalinks Epaper on Windows CE OS -- Part I
:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUZsGnwTEN4

The question is interestingly phrased. I said yes, even though my reading experience will hopefully be completely unaffected by a touch screen. What will dramatically improve is my writing experience... which currently doesn't work at all. I imagine if I got the right pen I could write on my liseuse, but quite probably only once.

The question is interestingly phrased. I said yes, even though my reading experience will hopefully be completely unaffected by a touch screen. What will dramatically improve is my writing experience... which currently doesn't work at all. I imagine if I got the right pen I could write on my liseuse, but quite probably only once.
:p

actually i *already* have touch screen and writing capabilities on my eb1150 (but not handwriting recognition), but i voted "yes" because i found them unexpectedly useful : touch screen allows me to easily look up a word in the dictionary simply by touching the word (i can use the stylus to avoid getting fingerprints on the screen) and the note-taking feature is brilliant when i am reading a PG text which i have formatted myself : i can mark all the OCR errors or incorrect punctuation or format problems as i am reading, to correct them later ; then i can use the "search" feature to search for markups, and jump from one error to the next. it saves a lot of time and effort. i would love for my future e-ink liseuse to also have these features.

I'm currently writing a paper about the pedagogical value of annotating text. Dennis Sumara makes a compelling case for reading and annotating as a focal exercise worth practicing. I've never been able to bring myself to feel comfortable writing in paper books, but I've found I love scribbling on my ebooks (though I can only currently do that with the PDF ones, which have their own limitations). That's why I keep hoping something like DotReader will eventually be ported to the iLiad. (Except that the DotReader website is still down after a week, leading me to wonder if that project is dead.)

Anyhoo, my point is that responding while reading is, for many, an integral part of reading, so having some kind of input can be seen as critical. I happen to prefer pen input, though many would be happy with the sort of keyboard in the Kindle, I'm sure.

By "don't work", I assume they mean "don't work well". I've owned a couple of Tablet PCs. Handwriting recognition is something that has to work perfectly, or it isn't worth it. At first you think it does, you start to use it, and then things start to go "Point Blimfark", to borrow a phrase recently exposed here.
They "don't work".

Although this is for reading devices, having owned and used tablet pcs for 3 years, I have to argue they "do work".:p

Nothing is perfect, put using the TIP in XP Tablet Edition and writing in cursive gives me a 90 - 95% accuracy rate with no training.:cool:

And any hand writing recognition enabled software (like OneNote) is 100% since it is capturing exactly what YOU write. WYSIWYG.:thumbsup:

One thing I'm curious about is that if the basic technology here could also be used in the "readius-like" device. Logically a fully flexible touchscreen would be too difficult right now, but I'm thinking that maybe you could embed sensors into the rigid backing?

I vote for a definite yes.

A killer feature would be to be able to flip pages / zoom and pan with the touch of a finger just like the iPhone picture viewer.

The touchscreeen must however be sensitively enough to allow handwriting with a pen.

A "real" touchscreen would allow us to get away of this WACOM stuff, with their redicolous pricing politics, and its pervasive writing gap.

I'm currently writing a paper about the pedagogical value of annotating text....
A link to the final paper is posted here: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25173

heck, i can't read shopping lists i wrote an hour ago unless i print them :smack:

It can never "work perfectly", I don't think - or at least not if your handwriting is as bad as mine. I can't read my own handwriting a week after I've written something, so I wouldn't expect a machine to be able to :).

Seriously, I think that "perfection" is a rather unrealistic goal.

I can't read my own handwriting a week after I've written something, so I wouldn't expect a machine to be able to :).

I do expect machines to be able to do things I can't.