Adobe released a final version of Digital Editions 1.5 (http://www.adobe.com/products/digitaleditions/) yesterday.

According to the DE official blog (http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/):
Adobe has updated its popular Digital Editions software, a lightweight, rich Internet application for reading, acquiring and organizing digital books and other publications. Version 1.5 features enhanced DRM flexibility through named activation so that users can move content across platforms and mobile devices using an Adobe ID. In addition, ADE 1.5 is localized in French and German and has support for Mac® OSX 10.5 (Leopard). Adobe Digital Editions supports both PDF and IDPF EPUB, a standard format designed to reflow for the screens of mobile reading devices, which has gained broad acceptance among book publishers.

Adobe Digital Editions has over 1 million installations since the June 2007 launch. The new software will be automatically provided to users who have installed Digital Editions 1.0, and is available at the product site .

Adobe has also released an updated Digital Editions installer and launcher for distributors of eBooks. The installer is used to detect and install the latest version of ADE for retail or library customers of Adobe eBooks. The software is free to use and available with implementation instructions .

I've experienced some troubles updating DE on one of my computer, and a few users are experiencing the same bug: http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b53d03

To fix this:
I've found a workaround. I downloaded the zipped exe file available from the following link and replaced the existing digitaleditions1x5.exe file.

http://www.adobe.com/go/kb403051

I assume that this exe is designed Vista, but it works fine on XP Pro.

Any thoughts on DE from Mobilereaders ? Now that DE 1.5 is ready, when can we expect support on mobile devices ? Will publishers start to massively support ePub now ?

The quote you posted seems to indicate that mobile devices are supported in this version:

. . .features enhanced DRM flexibility through named activation so that users can move content across platforms and mobile devices using an Adobe ID. . .

By your question, this makes me think it Adobe Digital Editions still does not support mobile devices....so which is it?

I tried the first version, which messed me up quite a bit....I won't install this software again to my computer and attempt to use it with any DRM books until I am also able to use it on my Pocket PCs.

Well according to the features list, the desktop version of DE 1.5 can sync content to a mobile device.

But no mobile device has for the moment proper support for DE. Obviously, if they already added a way to sync content to mobile devices, support on mobile devices shouldn't be too far away...

If you're asking about hardware support for DE... like, on the Kindle or Sony Reader, etc... I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

It seems like the most the hardware companies only see their own proprietary formats as in their best interests, and don't seem to be too hep on supporting anything other than their own format (and perhaps PDF, as it is already ubiquitous). So they're not jumping on the ePub bandwagon... and DE is essentially a whole new interface for files, in formats they don't really want to support.

I don't expect any hardware makers to support DE until after they wholeheartedly support ePub, when and if they see ePub as within their best interests. Even then, if they don't see any benefit to their hardware for the DE interface, and their hardware will run ePub files without it, they might not support that.

Check out Nate's post on the Sony DE announcement (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23883)...

If you're asking about hardware support for DE... like, on the Kindle or Sony Reader, etc... I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

It seems like the most the hardware companies only see their own proprietary formats as in their best interests, and don't seem to be too hep on supporting anything other than their own format (and perhaps PDF, as it is already ubiquitous). So they're not jumping on the ePub bandwagon... and DE is essentially a whole new interface for files, in formats they don't really want to support.

I don't expect any hardware makers to support DE until after they wholeheartedly support ePub, when and if they see ePub as within their best interests. Even then, if they don't see any benefit to their hardware for the DE interface, and their hardware will run ePub files without it, they might not support that.

Nate just saw a live demo of DE on the 505. Guess you're wrong ;-)

What the DE Help (http://www.adobe.com/products/digitaleditions/help/#transfer_items) says:
If you have authorized your computer, Adobe Digital Editions does not "lock" your eBooks and other digital publications to that computer — they are assigned to you through your Adobe ID. This means that you can transfer library items to up to six computers or supported mobile devices.

I assume the PRS-505 may be one of the first mobile devices, however the help implies that this transfer is a 5 step manual process.

What the DE Help (http://www.adobe.com/products/digitaleditions/help/#transfer_items) says:


I assume the PRS-505 may be one of the first mobile devices, however the help implies that this transfer is a 5 step manual process.

Thanks for the clarification....seems it won't work on my Pocket PCs until Adobe comes up with a reader for it....so.....Adobe Digital Editions.....no thanks. Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Reader 7.0 works just fine for my needs.

Thanks for the clarification....seems it won't work on my Pocket PCs until Adobe comes up with a reader for it....so.....Adobe Digital Editions.....no thanks. Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Reader 7.0 works just fine for my needs.

Adobe Digital Edition also supports PDF files so these should go ok to a Pocket PC. Many seem to think that Digital Edition is only ePUB but that is not the case.

Dale

Adobe Digital Edition also supports PDF files so these should go ok to a Pocket PC. Many seem to think that Digital Edition is only ePUB but that is not the case.

Dale

Yes, DE 1.5 can also display PDF pretty well. And according to Nate, DE on 505 can reflow PDF files too.

Sure Digital Editions supports PDF files, but my issue with it is that it would not transfer DRM books to my Pocket PC so I could read them there. When I installed DE to my computer (well I didn't install it to my computer - it installed itself to my computer, but that's a different issue), DE automatically assigned itself as my default PDF reader. It took me quite a bit of time to get my computer back to normal again - even after uninstalling the software - and then I was locked out of the DRM books altogether! (this was an early version of DE).

I don't want to waste my time again installing this software and then find out that it still will not let me transfer DRM books to my Pocket PC. The library that I use to check out PDF books has pretty good documentation about the software to use to read these books and even includes PDAs. Up to now, the library has advised its patrons to avoid DE. I'll monitor the library's documentation about this and, when they say DE will work with my Pocket PC, then maybe I'll give it another try.

Some interesting stuff from the DE FAQ:

What is content portability? Some users have eBooks and other digital publications on their computers that have been licensed with Acrobat, Reader, or earlier versions of Digital Editions using Easy Activation. These items cannot be moved to a new computer and are, for all intents and purposes, locked inside a particular computer. To solve this problem, Digital Editions allows you to convert items to a license associated with a named account. This allows digital content to be backed up, copied, and read on other computers. All items subsequently downloaded to an authorized computer with Digital Editions are licensed to the named account.
Adobe wants your eBook experience to be as easy and seamless as possible. Naturally, this includes protecting your eBooks from being lost or damaged. This is one of the key reasons that Digital Editions features content portability.
This feature also enables a new breed of mobile devices designed to be used with Digital Editions. Furthermore, Digital Editions will be introducing new social features in the future that will enhance the use and enjoyment of the user's eBooks, such as sharing annotations and reading lists. Use of these social features will require that you have a personal identifier, even if you only use one computer.


What are the requirements to get an Adobe ID? An Adobe ID is a free and a nonintrusive way of identifying users — you need only provide a name, country, and e-mail address. You can create your Adobe ID when prompted within Digital Editions as you authorize your computer, or go directly to the Adobe.com membership site (http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/membership/index.cfm?nl=1&nf=1&loc=en_us).

What is the maximum number of computers and devices that I can authorize? You can activate up to six computers and devices. If you reach the limit, contact Customer Service (http://www.adobe.com/support/digitaleditions/) to increase your allowable activations.
Why do some PDF documents look different in Digital Editions than they do in Acrobat and Reader? Digital Editions utilizes Adobe PDF technology that has been optimized for small code size and lower system requirements. This technology has shipped in hundreds of millions of mobile phones and other embedded devices. It is optimized for performance and onscreen readability, rather than graphic arts or prepress-level fidelity. As a result, some minor differences in graphics and font rendering are to be expected. In addition, the Digital Editions PDF implementation does not support several enterprise-oriented PDF features. These features are not typically used in PDF-based eBooks, and if present, they are ignored but may cause certain documents to render incorrectly.

While we all know how much DRM sucks... having something that can span devices would be nice. Of course, Mobipocket offers this but not all devices support it. The more you see and read about eBook DRM the more you realize its not about protecting copywritten material it's about vendor lockin. So, those reader vendors that also have their own store will generally only support their own DRM. But, in that case it is interesting that it looks like Sony is going to support DE... I wonder if it will support the DE DRM. We'll see.

BOb

I still don't trust Adobe for eBooks.

Nate just saw a live demo of DE on the 505. Guess you're wrong ;-)

Well, shet my mouth and call me corn-pone! Yeah, I'm surprised, all right... didn't expect that from Sony. Hopefully it won't turn out to be a long wait for availability, too.

Further, Adobe probably doesn't mind letting others use their DRM as they neither make devices nor sell books directly. I think they're more interested in becoming the de-facto eBook standard the way they're already the de-facto printable document standard.

Further, Adobe probably doesn't mind letting others use their DRM as they neither make devices nor sell books directly. I think they're more interested in becoming the de-facto eBook standard the way they're already the de-facto printable document standard.

Agreed. I was going to point out that Software only or Hardware only vendors have less of a stake. Although Adobe must have some monitization plan. I know with the Free reader it is Acrobat.. but now there are so many free replacments for that product.

BOb

Agreed. I was going to point out that Software only or Hardware only vendors have less of a stake. Although Adobe must have some monitization plan. I know with the Free reader it is Acrobat.. but now there are so many free replacments for that product.

BOb

They may try monetizing through licensing schemes. That would be my first guess. They'll allow basic functionality for free and then the extended/expanded functionality will cost money.

Well according to the features list, the desktop version of DE 1.5 can sync content to a mobile device.

But no mobile device has for the moment proper support for DE. Obviously, if they already added a way to sync content to mobile devices, support on mobile devices shouldn't be too far away...

Yeah, one would think. But I don't think mobile carriers or handset makers will be rushing to do this since they are far more interested in nickle and dime-ing us for other services.

Mobile device makers and carriers at their next meeting:
"Allow a way for them to read e-books? For free!?! Suuuurrrre. We'll get "right" on that." :rofl:

Further, Adobe probably doesn't mind letting others use their DRM as they neither make devices nor sell books directly. I think they're more interested in becoming the de-facto eBook standard the way they're already the de-facto printable document standard.

This move seems to prove that Adobe views eBooks as having an important role in the future. After all, Adobe's cost center is InDesign. But as nice as InDesign is, Adobe has to put as many ePub capable readers as possible out in the world to make it to sell.

This all works well for the future of eBooks.
:thumbsup:

I still don't trust Adobe for eBooks.

Why??

Why??

http://www.freesklyarov.org/

Why??

My own experience with Adobe formats (particularly PDF) is that they seem biased toward the creator's desires at the expense of the user's needs. PDF is a wonderful format for anything I want to print. I find it much less useful as a reading format.

I also have had issues with using Adobe software in the past. Earlier versions of Acrobat reader were incredibly slow-- even with relatively fast computers-- and I find the updater to be annoying as well.

It's this combination of documents that I have to struggle to read because they won't reflow to fit my screen, and software that gets in the way that makes me distrust Adobe products.

My own experience has caused me to react negatively to Adobe products because I associate them with slow software and being forced to jump through unnecessary hoops.

(Try reading several hundred pages of double column PDF documents for work where you have to do the scroll down and jog up thing because no matter what combination of resolution and zoom you pick it's impossible to get the whole page on the screen and still have it be legible.)

I bought a laser printer specifically so I could print out the PDF versions of the HERO Games rules that I bought, because it was easier than trying to deal with them on-screen.

I like the idea of epub: Past experience leads me to believe that Adobe software will cause me to focus more on the software and less on the document.

My own experience with Adobe formats (particularly PDF) is that they seem biased toward the creator's desires at the expense of the user's needs.

Coming from a company of SW creators--especially a company that has been victim of rampant product piracy in the past--I'd think that's understandable.

I also have had issues with using Adobe software in the past. Earlier versions of Acrobat reader were incredibly slow-- even with relatively fast computers-- and I find the updater to be annoying as well.

It's this combination of documents that I have to struggle to read because they won't reflow to fit my screen, and software that gets in the way that makes me distrust Adobe products.

My own experience has caused me to react negatively to Adobe products because I associate them with slow software and being forced to jump through unnecessary hoops.

I wouldn't consider product quality a reason for "distrust"... just dislike. And as later versions of Acrobat are faster than older versions, and as reflow works on my PC and my PDA, for instance, using actual Adobe SW (and not someone else's emulator), I'm not sure product quality is as much of an issue as you suggest. If you use an emulator, you might direct your distrust at the emulator makers.

(Try reading several hundred pages of double column PDF documents for work where you have to do the scroll down and jog up thing because no matter what combination of resolution and zoom you pick it's impossible to get the whole page on the screen and still have it be legible.)

Sure, scrolling up and down multi-column text sucks on any format. (Maybe you need a larger screen?...) But again, this isn't a fault of PDFs, it's a fault of bad formatting for screen-based use, the fault of the PDF creator, and not a reason to "distrust Adobe."

The point is, Adobe SW does what it's supposed to do, and Adobe is a business doing just what businesses generally do. If you have specific needs (like reading columns of text), you should make sure you have the proper equipment to do that, and not blame Adobe because your task isn't suited to the equipment or methods you'd prefer to use. Dislike them for being draconian, or expensive, fine. But blaming them beyond that is like my blaming Hyundai because my car can't fly.

Let me rephrase my original statement, because you do make some very good points Steve.

I do not trust Adobe to produce a product that I will want to use or enjoy using.

http://www.freesklyarov.org/

That story is much more complex then this site presents it.

Do you distrust all vendors who support DRM, then?

Let me rephrase my original statement, because you do make some very good points Steve.

I do not trust Adobe to produce a product that I will want to use or enjoy using.

But, of course, the decision to use an Adobe product to read a PDF file is probably inevitable since you are reading documents that were created (not by you) in PDF format. PDF documents are pervasive.

I dislike the multiple column format too - these look great as hard copy newspapers, magazines and printed articles and may be more efficient in that medium, but they do not translate well to electronic files and so they are really hard to read in any electronic format and in any electronic reader. These documents are nothing more than scanned images, and I do not consider them to be true electronic documents. People who intend to publish electronic newspapers, magazines and articles should understand this and change the format....some of them have.

I'm not willing to install DE to my computer until I have confirmation that using this software will not disrupt my reading of DRM PDF files on my Pocket PC. However, I think Adobe recognized that Adobe Acrobat and Adobe Reader were slow, bloated and more than the average reader needs and that is why they've come up with DE. In the end, I think DE will be the best and most efficient PDF reader around.

But, of course, the decision to use an Adobe product to read a PDF file is probably inevitable since you are reading documents that were created (not by you) in PDF format. PDF documents are pervasive.

Of course there are non-Adobe solutions to view PDFs. The FoxIt reader comes to mind. I'm sure there are others.

BOb

Let me rephrase my original statement, because you do make some very good points Steve.

I do not trust Adobe to produce a product that I will want to use or enjoy using.

That sounds more like a challenge ;-)

Ok, just curious. I downloaded DE and installed it. It found the 18 PDFs that I had in the "My Ebooks" folder. It told me if I didn't get an AdobeID (which appears to be your email address) that the documents would be lock to this computer. Wha? Wait, they aren't protected in the first place. I wasn't worried, I can redownload them if needed and already have copies on my home PC.

It seems pretty similar to Mobipocket reader for PC. They had a link on their store web site to get some free DE books, but the link didn't seem to work. I also see no way with DE to access any book stores/libraries, etc.

It is nice to be able to catalog the PDFs, but I can do that with Calibre and Mobipocket too.

BOb

ProfJulie: DE may well be the best and most efficient PDF reader around. It's not only possible but probable; but I don't really care that much since my preference for any document I want to read is any other format than PDF.

PeterSorotokin: I know it wasn't aimed at me, but personally while I don't necessarily distrust all vendors who utilize DRM I do distrust the mindset behind it. To the best of my knowledge DRM has never prevented copyright infringement. However, it has produced clear cases of vendor lock-in and such idiocy as DVD region coding.

The primary purpose of DRM seems to be to force you to pay for the content again if you want to use a different device or program to make use of it.

Let me rephrase my original statement, because you do make some very good points Steve.

I do not trust Adobe to produce a product that I will want to use or enjoy using.

Course, the product you were using wasn't designed for the purpose you wanted to use it for, so no wonder you were disappointed.

I don't see that as a reason to distrust Adobe.

Jason

Course, the product you were using wasn't designed for the purpose you wanted to use it for, so no wonder you were disappointed.

I don't see that as a reason to distrust Adobe.

Jason

Ummmmmmmm.... I wanted to use Adobe Acrobat or Acrobat Reader to read PDF documents... Isn't that the primary function of Acrobat Reader?

Ummmmmmmm.... I wanted to use Adobe Acrobat or Acrobat Reader to read PDF documents... Isn't that the primary function of Acrobat Reader?

But, the document that was produced as a PDF was NOT designed to be read on the screen. I have to admit, that isn't Adobe's fault.

Did you try to turn reflow view on? That might help alot in this case.

BOb

That story is much more complex then this site presents it.

Do you distrust all vendors who support DRM, then?

Which part is more complicated? That in the days prior to 9/11, federal agents, rather than answer calls about, you know, 19 dudes in Florida who were learning how to fly planes but not land them, instead at the behest of one corporation that made shoddy software, attended a hacker convention, arresting the guy that proved it? Or that after Dmitry, no one else has even thought of trying this move for books? Or, that Adobe backed off from this after the damage was done, and a jury found Dmitry not guilty and the law abhorrent?

I'll confess I don't worry too much about DRM per se, as after all the outcry over Dmitry was such that the Library of Congress approved anti-circumvention exemptions to the Digital Millenium Copyright Act specifically for books.

However there is still very much the possibility that Adobe DRM, an absolute market failure in the wake of Mobizon, can still be used to lock out players from educational markets. But of course you'd need the power of regulation to do that, something that can only be achieved by whispering campaigns and astrotrufing, and not, say, by having programmers do any actual programming. Not that Adobe doesn't love the little guy, but, of course, your own vice president is on record trashing the achievements of self-publishers.

http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2008/04/selfpublishing.html

That Astroturfing might be a fear of mine, but then, a former IDPF head, now with Adobe, was just caught lying to a semi-influential mailing list about Amazon's Epub support (Mobizon supports OEBPS 2.0 as a conversion source, like everyone else, and in fact Mobi was the first major ebook software company to do so.):
http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/04/keep-your-eye-on-the-epub-ball-but-play-nice.html

Now, with your programmers so busy chatting up folks on blogs, there might be a few weaknesses in the software itself. But that's OK, as despite the fact that, you know, in the age of $5 1 GB SD cards, Adobe's software chokes on a couple hundred K of text, we're told that it's "best practices" to chop every book up (even classics like Moll Flanders or Tropic of Cancer that don't have chapter breaks):
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/2008/05/file_size_limits_in_digital_ed.html

The above site is perhaps my favorite little bit of deception, as of course this failing of Adobe's makes all other means of creating .epub files (the DAISY Pipeline, Mischa's OEB2Epub, whatever Bookglutton's running) untrustworthy... but of course that's the fault of the user, not Adobe.

I'd have more, but the O's might just mount a comeback.

Of course there are non-Adobe solutions to view PDFs. The FoxIt reader comes to mind. I'm sure there are others.

BOb

Yeah sure, but last time I checked Foxit did not reflow documents. Does it now?

ProfJulie: DE may well be the best and most efficient PDF reader around. It's not only possible but probable; but I don't really care that much since my preference for any document I want to read is any other format than PDF.

I think most of us prefer to read in any other format than PDF. But unfortunately, in quite a lot of cases PDF is the only format that is available.

Yeah sure, but last time I checked Foxit did not reflow documents. Does it now?

i'm not sure, but found this in their forum about the mobile version supporting it soon.

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=15370

Which woud be great for the Jetbook since they use the FoxIt reader. They could update to this version it would add alot of value to that device.

BOb

EDIT: Actually found this in the FoxIt Mobile Reader PDF... About the Pro version. Not sure if this cost money or what.

The reflow mode provides the best reading
experience for Pocket PCs because text and
images in PDF files can be easily reflowed to fit
the screen size. It can make PDF documents
easier to read on the small screen of a mobile
device, without the need to scroll horizontally to
read each line of text.

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/solutions/FoxitMobileSolution.pdf

I think most of us prefer to read in any other format than PDF. But unfortunately, in quite a lot of cases PDF is the only format that is available.

Actually, that's the challenge Peter Sorotokin should take up. To try and make PDF something other than people's last choice of format.

i'm not sure, but found this in their forum about the mobile version supporting it soon.

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=15370

Which woud be great for the Jetbook since they use the FoxIt reader. They could update to this version it would add alot of value to that device.

BOb

Bob; I'd been looking for your review of the jetBook. But with the potential of the Mentor, is the jetBook still that good a value?:chinscratch:

5 inch lcd at $349.99 list compared to 5 inch eInk at less than $200?:chinscratch:

Nice to know they use FoxitPDF but I never saw your review listed to see if it was worth it.

And, unless the Mentor turns into vaporware, I think I'll wait until they release the 5 inch Mentor and potentially save myself at least $150.:thumbsup:

That in the days prior to 9/11, federal agents, rather than answer calls about, you know, 19 dudes in Florida who were learning how to fly planes but not land them, instead at the behest of one corporation that made shoddy software, attended a hacker convention, arresting the guy that proved it?

I guess there is no way for me to argue with this kind of reasoning...

Not that Adobe doesn't love the little guy, but, of course, your own vice president is on record trashing the achievements of self-publishers.

http://blogs.adobe.com/billmccoy/2008/04/selfpublishing.html


The post says basically that if you want to sell several thousands copies you still need to get a publisher involved. How that is trashing?

That Astroturfing might be a fear of mine, but then, a former IDPF head, now with Adobe, was just caught lying to a semi-influential mailing list about Amazon's Epub support (Mobizon supports OEBPS 2.0 as a conversion source, like everyone else, and in fact Mobi was the first major ebook software company to do so.):
http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/04/keep-your-eye-on-the-epub-ball-but-play-nice.html

Of course, Nick was talking about native EPUB support with no conversion to a vendor-specific format. You need that if you want to move the same book between, say, a cell phone, PC and dedicated eBook reader device.

But that's OK, as despite the fact that, you know, in the age of $5 1 GB SD cards, Adobe's software chokes on a couple hundred K of text.

Not that amount of storage in the card helps with a lack of RAM and CPU cycles...

we're told that it's "best practices" to chop every book up (even classics like Moll Flanders or Tropic of Cancer that don't have chapter breaks):
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/2008/05/file_size_limits_in_digital_ed.html


Remember the goal is to make it work well on hand-helds. Yes, with more coding it is possible to handle very long chapters even on the devices and we'll get there eventually, but short runs will work better on all devices and all viewers.

The above site is perhaps my favorite little bit of deception, as of course this failing of Adobe's makes all other means of creating .epub files (the DAISY Pipeline, Mischa's OEB2Epub, whatever Bookglutton's running) untrustworthy... but of course that's the fault of the user, not Adobe.

Let's see. We try to use the standard format. There are limitations and gotchas that we have encountered and we spend time documenting and discussing those. Others use a format of their own and in many cases keep all the info to themselves. You are telling me that we are somehow evil and shutting others off?

Now, with your programmers so busy chatting up folks on blogs, there might be a few weaknesses in the software itself.

That's the most polite way to say "shut up" that I know. I guess I'll follow your advice.


Peter

Nice, an Adobe developer intimately involved with ebooks shows up to discuss with us (what a great opportunity to hear from the "real" source!). Given Peter's post, blog, etc it is clear he is a key member of the DE team, all of which have obviously been working their arse off to bring us EPUB and reflowable PDF on the Sony reader, and content portability with DE -Today! Does anyone congratulate him for his recent achievement? Encourage ongoing support of open standards? Perhaps even, gasp! thank him? No, some wackjob chases him off while the rest of us sit here like we were at the Coliseum. I'm ashamed. We all have such an attitude of entitlement that it is sickening.

Peter, If you are still listening. Thank You! This is huge for publishers small and large. And huge for me since I love my Sony Reader. DE is not perfect, but I understand it is a 1.0 effort, and I can't wait to see 2.0. Huzzah!

Perhaps even, gasp! thank him? No, some wackjob chases him off while the rest of us sit here like we were at the Coliseum. I'm ashamed. We all have such an attitude of entitlement that it is

Perhaps the audience is silent, 'cuz the something ain't gibing.

Example:

Of course, Nick was talking about native EPUB support with no conversion to a vendor-specific format. You need that if you want to move the same book between, say, a cell phone, PC and dedicated eBook reader device.

Bogaty:

What .epub really gives publishers is leverage. They can say to their vendors and channels, "ok, I'm now only giving you .epub and you better either provide software that reads .epub or provides an automatic conversion from .epub to Y format."

Again, Amazon does provide automated conversion of .epub; has since the beginning. It's an effort to defraud, or at best mislead.

On McCoy:

The post says basically that if you want to sell several thousands copies you still need to get a publisher involved. How that is trashing?

'Cuz it's obviously untrue. Amazon's Kindle store, the only democratic one, has this Stephen Windwalker guy:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-text/

And he's at 15, 20k books sold by now. In four months. At a set-up cost of $0 (well, maybe he had to buy a Kindle). With no outside help; and apparently no editing. I'll wager his net against any O'Reilly "building .epub" manual you could name.

Then there's the Real Soon Now:

Remember the goal is to make it work well on hand-helds. Yes, with more coding it is possible to handle very long chapters even on the devices and we'll get there eventually, but short runs will work better on all devices and all viewers.

Kindle's been around since December. There was maybe a time, when they couldn't stock Kindle, that it would have been really good to come out with DE for Sony Reader... that time was December. Kindle's in stock, and Adobe's still sorting through issues.

Let's see. We try to use the standard format. There are limitations and gotchas that we have encountered and we spend time documenting and discussing those. Others use a format of their own and in many cases keep all the info to themselves. You are telling me that we are somehow evil and shutting others off?

I'm saying that every single business line of Adobe, the method is pretty much:

Postscript--"Own" the standard, get folks using it, add enough "extras" to lock in most users to Adobe's software.
PDF--"Own" the standard, get folks using it, add enough extras to lock in most users to Adobe's software.
Flash--"Own" the standard, get folks using it, add enough extras to lock in most users to Adobe's software.


Gee, what do you think they're trying to do with .epub?

But nonsavante, what's ludicrous about this whole spiel is that Adobe clearly does not own the standard. The de facto standard is mobipocket; and Adobe is in no position to be veering away from the guidelines or fudding the competition.

Obviously this fact is recognized in other circles. I mean heck, Publisher's Weekly didn't even cover Digital Book 08, despite BEA not being for another week or two, but maybe the silent crowd is reflecting the fact that something about .epub smells not quite right.

If I'm banned, have a day.

nonsavante,

Thank you for your kind words.

Perhaps, I did not express myself clearly: I am not going to continue that particular discussion, but it's not like I am leaving this forum: there is too much interesting things going on (and I am not offended if someone tells me that my software or my company or my company's file format suck).

Peter

yes! we should be greatful for another player in the DRM market!

I barely had it installed, with no books in it at all, not even trying to buy a book with it, and already it starts bugging me that I should sign up to adobe-DRM, while trying to turn being able to read my own ebooks on multiple computers a great new feature.

Huzzah, indeed!

http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/04/keep-your-eye-on-the-epub-ball-but-play-nice.html
Now, with your programmers so busy chatting up folks on blogs, there might be a few weaknesses in the software itself. But that's OK, as despite the fact that, you know, in the age of $5 1 GB SD cards, Adobe's software chokes on a couple hundred K of text, we're told that it's "best practices" to chop every book up (even classics like Moll Flanders or Tropic of Cancer that don't have chapter breaks):
http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/2008/05/file_size_limits_in_digital_ed.html

The above site is perhaps my favorite little bit of deception, as of course this failing of Adobe's makes all other means of creating .epub files (the DAISY Pipeline, Mischa's OEB2Epub, whatever Bookglutton's running) untrustworthy... but of course that's the fault of the user, not Adobe.


Peter explained why multi-flows are necessary months ago (on this forum too). That's the reason why I switched the ePub output from Feedbooks to multi-flow. Aside from Adobe or Feedbooks, anyone else could do the same as long as they use elements that indicate the subdivision of a book, or use some page-break CSS properties. It only took me a day or two to change this on Feedbooks.
But I agree: for some books it's almost impossible to divide them into multiple flows. For example, open a book from Proust: you won't find a single page break and they're barely divided into 2 or 3 parts.

what happens when ADOBE decides your reader device is no longer worth supporting? Yet it works just fine thank you very much...

what happens when ADOBE decides your reader device is no longer worth supporting? Yet it works just fine thank you very much...

That's a hard question. Even in the desktop software business one has to pick the new platforms and drop the old ones just to survive, unfortunately. Mobile world is much more fragmented, which makes the problem even worse. And many of these platforms are closed solutions, so there are cases when it is not even possible for us to update the software/firmware unilaterally.

It would have been nice to have a handful of standard mobile platforms, but that would commoditize the mobile hardware, so there is resistance to that...

Hmmm by the way... Still no support for justification in DE ? For multi-column documents using XSL-FO, justification is necessary. Multi-column without justification is just plain ugly...

That's a hard question. Even in the desktop software business one has to pick the new platforms and drop the old ones just to survive, unfortunately. Mobile world is much more fragmented, which makes the problem even worse. And many of these platforms are closed solutions, so there are cases when it is not even possible for us to update the software/firmware unilaterally.

It would have been nice to have a handful of standard mobile platforms, but that would commoditize the mobile hardware, so there is resistance to that...

Maybe Android will succeed ?

Peter explained why multi-flows are necessary months ago (on this forum too). That's the reason why I switched the ePub output from Feedbooks to multi-flow. Aside from Adobe or Feedbooks, anyone else could do the same as long as they use elements that indicate the subdivision of a book, or use some page-break CSS properties. It only took me a day or two to change this on Feedbooks.
But I agree: for some books it's almost impossible to divide them into multiple flows. For example, open a book from Proust: you won't find a single page break and they're barely divided into 2 or 3 parts.

Yeah, Proust, Joyce, Miller, Burroughs, Kerouac... we could make a Modern Library of titles that have to be altered. If it's a software thing, fine, but "Best Practices?" Where's the honesty?

Yeah, Proust, Joyce, Miller, Burroughs, Kerouac... we could make a Modern Library of titles that have to be altered. If it's a software thing, fine, but "Best Practices?" Where's the honesty?

It's both a software and a hardware thing. Mobile devices have limited CPU cycles and RAM, and the normal way to parse XTML/CSS is to parse the whole flow. With limited CPU cycles, this can take time, and with limited RAM it's hard to cache this.

While it's technically possible to parse the data in another way, it's a lot harder to implement compared to the usual techniques.

But if you can divide your text into multiple flows, then it is definitely a best practice to divide it into multiple flows instead of using a CSS property for page breaks.

It's both a software and a hardware thing. Mobile devices have limited CPU cycles and RAM, and the normal way to parse XTML/CSS is to parse the whole flow. With limited CPU cycles, this can take time, and with limited RAM it's hard to cache this.

While it's technically possible to parse the data in another way, it's a lot harder to implement compared to the usual techniques.

But if you can divide your text into multiple flows, then it is definitely a best practice to divide it into multiple flows instead of using a CSS property for page breaks.

Yeah, but there is nothing in the .epub specification which requires the division of text. It's certainly possible; anyone who's lived with Sony has done it, but it's not in the spec and by definition not the fault of the content provider. This need to divide should be properly labeled, and other open-source programmers (like DAISY, if they still care about .epub) should be informed.

Come on, we're talking text. Just... text. In 2008. Compare the hardware in the average smartphone to the hardware in a typical PC running Windows 95...

/Aside, ever noticed that books from the Sony store by major publishers appear not to have any divisions or tables of contents whatsoever? I'm probably not the only one who will resent this attitude...

Yeah, but there is nothing in the .epub specification which requires the division of text. It's certainly possible; anyone who's lived with Sony has done it, but it's not in the spec and by definition not the fault of the content provider. This need to divide should be properly labeled, and other open-source programmers (like DAISY, if they still care about .epub) should be informed.

Come on, we're talking text. Just... text. In 2008. Compare the hardware in the average smartphone to the hardware in a typical PC running Windows 95...

/Aside, ever noticed that books from the Sony store by major publishers appear not to have any divisions or tables of contents whatsoever? I'm probably not the only one who will resent this attitude...

Yes, I fully agree with you regarding the specs. It is an issue that should be discussed within IDPF. I think that the main problem here is that IDPF designed ePub as both a source format and an end-user format.

From a source format perspective, there's no reason to discuss these sort of issues. But from an end-user perspective, you really need to think about these sorts of problems.

Pagination can be a real resource hog: ask Kovid for example, when he wrote his LRF viewer. That's also one of the reasons why LRF books are pre-processed on the desktop if you use Sony's software to transfer books to your PRS.

I'm waiting to see if DE shows up on more open hardware, such as the Iliad. I've been seriously burned before by orphaned DRMed PDFs and will not purchase anymore until I *know* that I'm not just purchasing a limited license.

ePub with the capability to convert to my favorite format is possible okay but what about the DRM? How would that convert? IMO, it won't and if you want a DRMed ePub ebook you'll be stuck with DE. Too bad that 90% of the technical ebooks I want are in such a restrictive format. I spend all day on the computer I want to able to do actual reading on an eInk device. Don't say Sony because I'm not buying *another* piece of hardware just to read a locked in format. Put DE on more than the Sony Reader.

Yes, I fully agree with you regarding the specs. It is an issue that should be discussed within IDPF. I think that the main problem here is that IDPF designed ePub as both a source format and an end-user format.

From a source format perspective, there's no reason to discuss these sort of issues. But from an end-user perspective, you really need to think about these sorts of problems.

Pagination can be a real resource hog: ask Kovid for example, when he wrote his LRF viewer. That's also one of the reasons why LRF books are pre-processed on the desktop if you use Sony's software to transfer books to your PRS.

I'm hoping that people are going to get rid of the concept of pages. THey dont really add anything to the reading experience (of a reflowable format) and make reading software a lot more resource intensive. If I ever write an epub viewer it will be without pages and wont suffer from the need for the epub to be sliced into parts.

I wonder how hard it is to get customer support to authorize DE to more than 6 devices. I can imagine installing it on my laptop, desktop and perhaps a reader if and when that option becomes available. Count in a few reformatting of the computers, os upgrades or device upgrades and I would reach the original 6 allowed authorizations in probably a year or two. I know some users might reach this cap faster if the software becomes available on more mobile devices.

I just hope it isn't too much of a hassle. Wish it was like the sony software where you have the ability to de-authorize a device that needs to be upgraded or formatted so it didn't count against the 6 original allowed authorizations.

I read almost all my PDF files on DE's and I love the way it looks and it does all the things I need but the DRM thing is so annoying. It's like a punishment for those who legitimately bought their books.

I'm not that knowledgeable on tech but I just wish there was one standardized format for ebooks and if I purchased it, I could read it on any device that handles ebooks for as long as I want. The inability to do this is the only reason I haven't been to enthusiastic about ebooks.

I'm hoping that people are going to get rid of the concept of pages. THey dont really add anything to the reading experience.

I fervently hope they don't.
I cannot imagine reading a book without a page count.

I think the day they do it I will be back to paper books.
For me reading it is not just the content, it is also the procedure itself and removing page count will totaly destroy the atmosphere.

I fervently hope they don't.
I cannot imagine reading a book without a page count.

I think the day they do it I will be back to paper books.
For me reading it is not just the content, it is also the procedure itself and removing page count will totaly destroy the atmosphere.

Try it, after 10 minutes you wont even notice there isn't a page count, as long as there is a progress indicator.

Try it, after 10 minutes you wont even notice there isn't a page count, as long as there is a progress indicator.

Don't want to.
Moreover, quite often I go to TOC and check how many pages are left until the end of the chapter, either to understand how soon the event is going to resolve or should I stop right now and go to sleep or should I proceed another 10-15 minutes and finish the chapter etc.
I never read books with less than 300 pages, but usually no less than 400+. Don't like short stories.
It is an important part of reading experience for me. I am not saying it is a good or bad trait of me, however, it is part of the enjoyment and I don't see any reason why should I force myself to give up on it. It is my hobby and I like it as it is.

Silkpag, I apologize for the wackjob label. I just get so frustrated with the pervasive negativity I find on forums sometimes. I'm in software, and know how hard everyone works, and how thankless it can be. Seems like no matter what improvements you put other there, the immediate response is always complaints and suspicion.

All I'm saying is lets occasionally recognize efforts, be positive, be gracious and grateful. We are people, not corporate pawns.

Don't want to.
Moreover, quite often I go to TOC and check how many pages are left until the end of the chapter, either to understand how soon the event is going to resolve or should I stop right now and go to sleep or should I proceed another 10-15 minutes and finish the chapter etc.
I never read books with less than 300 pages, but usually no less than 400+. Don't like short stories.
It is an important part of reading experience for me. I am not saying it is a good or bad trait of me, however, it is part of the enjoyment and I don't see any reason why should I force myself to give up on it. It is my hobby and I like it as it is.

You THINK it's an important part of reading, but that's your perception now. I thought so too, but after using my Cybook for a while, my perception has changed.

The Cybook does not use page numbers and, really, for an electronic book on an electronic book reader, page numbers are not very relevant - at least the page numbers that are associated with a paper book. The progress indicator that runs along the bottom of the screen is a much better indicator for an electronic reading device.

I was reading a PDF book the other day on my Pocket PC and Adobe Reader does not provide a progress indicator. Adobe Reader preserves the page number of the paper version of the book. On my Pocket PC one paper page spans many pages. The page number really was meaningless and I really missed the progress indicator. On my Pocket PC, I had no sense of where I was in the book and how much further I had to go to complete it. I had to check the bookmarks to gauge my progress through the book and that disrupted my reading experience.

I'm waiting to see if DE shows up on more open hardware, such as the Iliad. I've been seriously burned before by orphaned DRMed PDFs and will not purchase anymore until I *know* that I'm not just purchasing a limited license.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong... but from what I read in the FAQs DE will convert any DRMed PDFs that you have to the new DE "adobeid" DRM so that it will be portable to any device that supports DE... which right now currently seems to be Windows PCs.

BOb

I wonder how hard it is to get customer support to authorize DE to more than 6 devices. I can imagine installing it on my laptop, desktop and perhaps a reader if and when that option becomes available. Count in a few reformatting of the computers, os upgrades or device upgrades and I would reach the original 6 allowed authorizations in probably a year or two. I know some users might reach this cap faster if the software becomes available on more mobile devices.

It is 6 desktop/laplop devices and 6 handhelds. I cannot talk about specifics, but there is clear understanding that device lifetime is 2-3 years and one will need to activate more devices without calling customer support. I know that this still may feel too restrictive, but many publishers won't authorize their content for unlimited number of devices.

I just hope it isn't too much of a hassle. Wish it was like the sony software where you have the ability to de-authorize a device that needs to be upgraded or formatted so it didn't count against the 6 original allowed authorizations.

It is my understanding that there should not be a need to re-activate it when upgrading the software (but that depends on how exactly Sony implemented their updater).

I read almost all my PDF files on DE's and I love the way it looks and it does all the things I need but the DRM thing is so annoying. It's like a punishment for those who legitimately bought their books.

It is understood that DRM adds hassles. I think that can be improved a lot, though. The good thing is that most people are much more realistic now about the level of protection that it can provide against a motivated attacker (very low), so it can be made into much more lightweight and robust component.

I'm not that knowledgeable on tech but I just wish there was one standardized format for ebooks and if I purchased it, I could read it on any device that handles ebooks for as long as I want. The inability to do this is the only reason I haven't been to enthusiastic about ebooks.

That's the goal.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong... but from what I read in the FAQs DE will convert any DRMed PDFs that you have to the new DE "adobeid" DRM so that it will be portable to any device that supports DE... which right now currently seems to be Windows PCs.

BOb

Mac as well ;-)

Seriously, what we do it to burn enough information into PDF (or EPUB), so that same document can be opened on any device activated by the same user. This is a different approach from Acrobat days, where the PDF file was re-encrypted and locked to a particular handheld device.

You THINK it's an important part of reading, but that's your perception now. I thought so too, but after using my Cybook for a while, my perception has changed.

The Cybook does not use page numbers and, really, for an electronic book on an electronic book reader, page numbers are not very relevant - at least the page numbers that are associated with a paper book. The progress indicator that runs along the bottom of the screen is a much better indicator for an electronic reading device.


Have you tried reading a short story collection on the Cybook and one were some of the stories are bad so if they are short you will finish them but otherwise you will skip them? Page number is irrelevant but an indicator that tells how long a chapter or a short story is is very relevant and for me necessary.

Before buying the Cybook I did not think this was important.

Mac as well ;-)

Seriously, what we do it to burn enough information into PDF (or EPUB), so that same document can be opened on any device activated by the same user. This is a different approach from Acrobat days, where the PDF file was re-encrypted and locked to a particular handheld device.

So, am I right in that it will convert any currently DRMed PDF's using the Acrobat approach to work with the DE DRM? That seemed to be what the dialog said when I first installed and imported the PDFs on my machine.

What was a bit weird is that the PDFs on my PC were not protected in any way. But, DE seemed to imply that it was going to apply the DE DRM to them. Is this correct? Or was that dialog a little ambishish?

BOb

So, am I right in that it will convert any currently DRMed PDF's using the Acrobat approach to work with the DE DRM? That seemed to be what the dialog said when I first installed and imported the PDFs on my machine.

Yes, your reading is correct

What was a bit weird is that the PDFs on my PC were not protected in any way. But, DE seemed to imply that it was going to apply the DE DRM to them. Is this correct? Or was that dialog a little ambishish?


We do not know if any particular file is DRM-protected or not until we open it. But, of course, we don't apply DRM to anything that was not DRM-protected, non-DRMed files stay as is.

Peter

We do not know if any particular file is DRM-protected or not until we open it. But, of course, we don't apply DRM to anything that was not DRM-protected, non-DRMed files stay as is.


Ah... that's good, and what I would expect. (It's good when software does what you expect it to.) However, the message was a bit misleading and should probably be tweaked.

Thanks for the info.

BOb

Have you tried reading a short story collection on the Cybook and one were some of the stories are bad so if they are short you will finish them but otherwise you will skip them? Page number is irrelevant but an indicator that tells how long a chapter or a short story is is very relevant and for me necessary.

Before buying the Cybook I did not think this was important.

Yes, I have read all your arguments in support of page numbers for short stories. I don't share your perspective there either. I've read several collections of short stories on my Cybook, and page numbers have never been a big deal for me with short stories. I don't need them and never really consider them for short stories even when reading a paper book collection of short stories.

Downloaded DE 1.5 and the sample EPUB Alice in Wonderland book. The reflowable text works very well with the embedded pictures. I am impressed!

I cannot wait for PRS 505 compatibility to be released!

Downloaded DE 1.5 and the sample EPUB Alice in Wonderland book. The reflowable text works very well with the embedded pictures. I am impressed!

I cannot wait for PRS 505 compatibility to be released!

Why don't you plug in your 505 and see if DE recognizes it?

Why don't you plug in your 505 and see if DE recognizes it?

Won't that need new firmware at the 505 end of the connection?

It is 6 desktop/laplop devices and 6 handhelds. I cannot talk about specifics, but there is clear understanding that device lifetime is 2-3 years and one will need to activate more devices without calling customer support. I know that this still may feel too restrictive, but many publishers won't authorize their content for unlimited number of devices.

Well thanks for clearning that up. 6 desktops/laptops AND 6 handheld devices would go a long way as well as an understanding that we do replace these devices.


It is my understanding that there should not be a need to re-activate it when upgrading the software (but that depends on how exactly Sony implemented their updater).

Probably just a bad explanation on my part. I meant that whenever I have to format my computer I can deauthorize the computer before I do so. That way when I authorize it again after the computer format, the computer only counts as being authorized once. Wasn't referring to upgrade of the sony software.

Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns.

Won't that need new firmware at the 505 end of the connection?

Maybe, maybe not. The 505 appears as a USB drive. It's entirely possible that DE might already know to check for attached USB devices.

Won't that need new firmware at the 505 end of the connection?

No, for instance calibre recognizes the reader.

I see what you're saying, yes. I was sort of assuming (perhaps wrongly) that it would work a little like the Mobi Desktop Reader which does "smart things" with a portable Mobi device plugged in via USB. You can set it up, for example, to automatically sync new content to the attached device. That requires it to specifically recognise the device that's connected as being another Mobi device, rather than merely an external USB file system.

It is probably very close to MobiDesktop. But MobiDesktop does all the work, not the portable device.

I see what you're saying, yes. I was sort of assuming (perhaps wrongly) that it would work a little like the Mobi Desktop Reader which does "smart things" with a portable Mobi device plugged in via USB. You can set it up, for example, to automatically sync new content to the attached device. That requires it to specifically recognise the device that's connected as being another Mobi device, rather than merely an external USB file system.

Yeah, you can actually setup calibre to do that as well (though only from the command line at the moment). Basically you can recognize when a SONY reader is plugged in because although it is mounted as a disk drive in the OS, the OS also has the vendor and product id information of the device available to it. USB devices always make this information available to the host OS.

Why don't you plug in your 505 and see if DE recognizes it?

I plugged in the PRS 505. It was not recognized by DE. We await the software update.

You THINK it's an important part of reading, but that's your perception now. I thought so too, but after using my Cybook for a while, my perception has changed.

The Cybook does not use page numbers and, really, for an electronic book on an electronic book reader, page numbers are not very relevant - at least the page numbers that are associated with a paper book. The progress indicator that runs along the bottom of the screen is a much better indicator for an electronic reading device.

That's why you are using CyBook and I am using Sony Reader :D
To each its own.

Mac as well ;-)

Seriously, what we do it to burn enough information into PDF (or EPUB), so that same document can be opened on any device activated by the same user. This is a different approach from Acrobat days, where the PDF file was re-encrypted and locked to a particular handheld device.

So does that mean if the provider no longer supports the PDFs (Amazon after they stopped selling PDFs), I would still be able to access the PDFs. I'm not referring to ones already orphaned by Amazon, that would be too good to be true, but to current and future purchases from various vendors.

Your protection scheme sounds similar to the one from eReader where the DRM info is locked into the document not the device.

So does that mean if the provider no longer supports the PDFs (Amazon after they stopped selling PDFs), I would still be able to access the PDFs. I'm not referring to ones already orphaned by Amazon, that would be too good to be true, but to current and future purchases from various vendors.

Your protection scheme sounds similar to the one from eReader where the DRM info is locked into the document not the device.

Yes the migration process will work irrespective of where you bought the PDF files, and only requires an connection to Adobe servers. There are some cavaets however.

The most important is that you must still be able to read the PDF file (in either Adobe Reader 6,7 or DE 1.0) on the computer where you are doing the migration.

The second is the PDF files which you purchased are associated with an existing activation account. DE 1.5 will associate only one such activation account with an Adobe ID. This works relatively well if you purchased all of you books on one computer. If however you purchased your content on multiple computers, and those computers were activated separate accounts (either different named activations, or "Easy" anonymous activations), you will not be able to consolidate all of you books under a single AdobeID.

Hmmm by the way... Still no support for justification in DE ? For multi-column documents using XSL-FO, justification is necessary. Multi-column without justification is just plain ugly...


Any answer ?

Hmmm by the way... Still no support for justification in DE ? For multi-column documents using XSL-FO, justification is necessary. Multi-column without justification is just plain ugly...

Yes, it is not yet supported. We'll have it eventually, of course.

The reason is that we need to pull new low-level line layout code which would support bidi, glyph composition, etc. and we are hesitant to add features to the current branch.

Yes, it is not yet supported. We'll have it eventually, of course.

The reason is that we need to pull new low-level line layout code which would support bidi, glyph composition, etc. and we are hesitant to add features to the current branch.

Sure I can understand why you're hesitant to add new features to a stable branch.

There's a lot of newspapers in France working on e-paper editions, I'm sure that they would be amazed by the sort of things possible with proper use of CSS+XSL-FO in a mobile environment. Multi-columns layouts with justification and hyphenation that would reflow with a different number of columns... That's something that would be gorgeous to demo.

Hyphenation is the main reason why I still use PDF instead of another format on the current crop of e-paper devices. I can't help thinking that the text looks like a screen instead of a book, without some of these basic typesetting rules.