Having recently made up my mind to move from the grab-bag of devices I have used in the past to a dedicated ebook reader, I now find myself getting quite depressed over the alternatives.

At first I was very excited over the Kindle. It has a bunch of wonderful features, but the prospect of not being able to move books onto the desktop/laptop when I am working with them I find extremely unattractive. And I know that there are ways to change Kindle protected files into Mobi but I don’t put it past Amazon to close the loophole and, in any case, I don’t want to spend my time chasing down elusive (and probably illegal) scripts on the internet.

So I started to look at something like the Cybook – being a spendthrift I’d be quite happy if it kept me going for a year until something better came along. I already have fair stock of Mobi format files anyway. But then I don’t trust Amazon not to begin tipping the market towards Kindle by slowing the introduction of material for non-Kindle devices. I think it’s quite possible that when the dust settles from the format wars only Kindle will remain standing for those who want as near as possible a complete choice of titles. Anybody want to by a second-hand Betamax machine?

If I really went over from paper to a handheld I would be investing a lot of money – I spend a lot on books and would probably spend more because the space limitations would be lifted. (My wife would kill me if I put up another set of bookshelves – so it’s more a personal safety than a space issue). Would I be left with a bunch of expensive redundant files a couple of years down the line. Which is what is happening to my eReader and MSReader files if I move to Kindle or Cybook.

I find myself quite unable to see a safe route into the future and, amazingly for someone who buys more gadgets than is quite healthy, I find myself turning away from the idea of protected ebooks entirely. I’ll still read Dickens on the smartphone but I can’t see myself continuing to pay out for files I can’t transport to other devices and can’t guarantee will last longer than my current gadget. And it’s mostly because I don’t trust Amazon, which seems a ridiculous thing to say given how much I spend with them and how happy I am with the service.

And when will publishers begin to realize just how much the current DRM mess is costing them when a gadget addict like me is actually thinking of walking away.

A depressed Argel

I was in the same boat, and decided:

1. Get what you can get today, realizing full well that things, they are a-changin'.
2. Read what you can read on it, rather than bemoan what you can't.
3. If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

That second is hypocritical, because of course I still bitch about publishers and DRM and so on, but I don't let it spoil my enjoyment of the device.

I was in the same boat, and decided:

1. Get what you can get today, realizing full well that things, they are a-changin'.


I'm really glad that works for you but I spend, in most months, between $100 and $200 on books. That's too much to walk away from if they become redundant in a couple of years, as has happened with my eReader files.

Most of all, though, it's the loss of the concept of the library. My shelves groan with books I have bought over four decades and the collection gives me great pleasure. I would be happy to have a digital library as long as it, too, is a lasting possession. We bought one of the very first CD players to come to the UK - 25 years later the disks that ran on it still work, but now on a player designed primarily for DVDs! Their contents are anyway digitally stored and backed up - they are mine for life. Is it asking too much that the same should be true of my books?

I may buy a cheap E-ink device to read free content - still have some Dickens to go - but that's a far cry from the dream of carrying my library in my pocket. But, as I say, I'm glad it works for you.

Argel

I spend about the same. I still do. Nothing is redundant. If a title I want is available as an ebook, that's how I buy it. If not, I buy the printed version. No redundancy. The key to happiness with an e-book (reader) is setting the proper expectation level. Things aren't ideal, but many, many people have managed to become quite happy with e-book ownership.

As a very satisfied Kindle owner, I'll encourage you to take Taylor's advice and go ahead and purchase a device, even if it's not the Kindle.
At first I was very excited over the Kindle. It has a bunch of wonderful features, but the prospect of not being able to move books onto the desktop/laptop when I am working with them I find extremely unattractive. Well, on your PC you can't *read* the DRMed .azw files you purchase from Amazon, but you can read the DRM-free books you purchase from elsewhere. (I actually don't like reading on the PC any way.)

And you can move books onto the PC from the Kindle and then back to the Kindle from the PC. I even back up my books on two external hard drives. Amazon says they will keep a permanent backup on their servers, and so far that's been true, but I just like knowing that I have a safe backup. And, since I've been purchasing from other vendors, I don't want to count on one of them to allow me to download the book later and discover that they don't offer that service.

I spend quite a bit for books each month -- I'm afraid to track how much because my hubby might realize how much it is and try to impose curbs. I also actively trade books both online and in person. I have several hundred TBR books in my family room and a smaller set of "keep forever" books in my spare bedroom. If you were to explore my bookshelves on BookCrossing (http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf), you'd see that I have owned multiple copies of quite a few books. That happens to me if I've purchased a book & not yet read it and then find it in the store again.

Since I keep very few books for the long term, I'm not too worried about my eBooks -- but I also try to buy few of them with DRM protection. The few "new release" books I buy at Amazon are typically much less than 1/2 price of the hardback edition. This offsets the cost of the Kindle itself and gives me immediate gratification to read them *now* instead of having to wait for them to come out in paperback at the same price.

The question really boils down to:
** Will I enjoy using the book reader with whatever content I choose to get?

The current devices aren't perfect. And the current publication and distribution isn't perfect. But I'm still having fun.

I have a Cybook that I like quite a lot. As you know the Cybook handles DRM Mobipocket books very well. I have had some concerns about getting so fully vested in Mobipocket format, especially since they are owned by Amazon and I share some of your thoughts about how Amazon might handle Mobipocket in the future.

There is software - you can look through these forums to find it - that allows you to convert MSReader, Mobipocket & eReader books to a different format. Worse case scenario for me would be that Amazon makes it impossible for me to continue purchasing and reading Mobipocket books on my Cybook. If that happens, I'll just switch over to MSReader books and use this software to convert it to a format I can use on my Cybook. I don't like DRM and would prefer not to have to deal with circumventing it, but if it comes down to me being able to freely read books that I invested money in or being locked out of those books....well I'm glad for the tools that remove that concern for me.

I have book cases a plenty. About every 10 years I go through a painful purge of books. Now I am evaluating software that I can use to catalogue my books (paper & electronic) - creating a virtual book case, if you will. I am close to making my selection and am looking forward to getting all my books inventoried and organized in my new software. Some of this software provides a really beautiful user interface.

Right now, I feel a bit disoriented, because my eBook collection is not in any kind of format that I can view and reflect on. But I think it will be very gratifying to "see" all my books on my computer. And a nice benefit is that I will always know what books I have, what books I want to buy, the status of books I've lent out (well I don't lend books so much these days), and since a benefit of having an electronic catalogue is that I can carry it around on my pocket pc, I won't buy a book because I've forgotten that I already have it.

At first I was very excited over the Kindle. It has a bunch of wonderful features, but the prospect of not being able to move books onto the desktop/laptop when I am working with them I find extremely unattractive.


One question I would ask... Why do you need to put the books (read) on the PC? You can have your Kindle with you while you work on your PC. It will also free up the PC screen for things other than that book.

That said, you could decide to by .lit books and "downconvert" them, then transfor them to any type of archive format you prefer... .txt or .mobi seem like good choices. (Is this illegal, perhaps in some countrys? Some people would say it isn't illegal since it is a civil offense. However, the way I feel, if I pay for an eBook, I should have the "right" to read it on the device I own. I also speed sometimes which is also illegal.)

If you do the above (convert to text) you can read pretty much any book you buy on just about any reader (does Kindle support .txt?). Also, you will have a library that is not device or DRM provider dependant.

If I hadn't bought the Sony (got as a Cristmas gift) I would have got a Kindle. I like it for two main reasons... 1) Content... Kindle seems to have the most avilable for it... what you can't find on Amazon you can get other places. I think Fictionwise will send stuff to your Kindle and Feedbooks can get your public domain books. 2) The digital library... (which I admit I do get on fictionwise but not in the format the my Sony can consume.)

Do you actually re-read or sell your books? I've gotta admit, the majority of books I buy (fiction) get read (perhaps by one or two people) then get donated and/or trashed. Sometimes sold in a yard/garage sale. The exception here is some tech/reference books. But, even those get outdated for the most part. (Yes I know there is a whole other thread about this.)

Comeon... join the club. I think Amazon gives you a 30day return policy too. Once you start reading on an eInk device you will probably feel different about the "downsides" to it.

BOb

Hi Argel,
Life's too short to get depressed over such issues. Hopefully my 411 below get you back to "Getting excited" about life :)

Currently you place a importance on being able to read on he PC and on an EINK device. I think once you get your device you will find it hard to read on the PC. However since you ask...

The I know of two formats that allow a user to read on the PC and on an EInk First is the Mobi format. There are a few EBook Readers are Cybook and the Illiad that handle this format natively. Mobi is also supported on blackberrys and Win CE(WM5/WM6)

Second is the SONY reader, the online reader is quite nice. The reader features (search/bookmark) work on all supported formats (PDF, txt, Doc,.etc..), but I don't use it as I find it hard to read eBooks on the PC

Currently many SONY buy LIT/Mobi format and convert it to LRF. Of course that requires hunting down apps/scripts that you mentioned above.
The side benifit is here you can read LIT/MOBI/BeBB on the PC as well as on your reader.

--
Hope this helps
=X=

Likely there will never be a perfect device, or just when you think you found one a new one will come out and be even better.

OK, OK, I give in. Thanks for all the replies, though I think that many of you have a very different attitude to the buying and owning of books. My idea of the bare essentials would be the complete contents of the Bodleian Library (for starters).

I think I’m going to have to fall into the arms of Bezos, because it seems to me inevitable that he is going to win and, as a result, that is the only place where I’m going to be able to get anything close to all the books I want, when I want them. I say that with a certain heaviness of heart because I do mistrust Amazon’s motives in the long term.

It’s for that very reason that I won’t be buying any protected work in other formats, including Mobi. I can’t see that Amazon will allow loopholes in uploading to continue once the Kindle is established as market leader. Given that the Millennium Act provides for fines of $500,000 and five years in prison for circumventing DRM, I am amazed at the optimism of people who are cheerfully doing just that and then putting the files onto a device that is in constant radio contact with a company which relies on DRM to protect its bottom line. Good luck with that.

In any case, in stark financial terms, from the titles I’ve been looking at, the difference in price between Kindle editions and others is significant, and not just for best-sellers. I will even save money over my current paper-based buying.

And so, with grim resignation I have to say ‘Give me the contract Mr Bezos, I’m ready to sign over my soul. What’s that? I can’t buy the Kindle in the UK and you can’t tell me if and when I might be able to?’

Now I'm really depressed.

FX: Sound of sobbing fades into the distance....

Argel

I am amazed at the optimism of people who are cheerfully doing just that and then putting the files onto a device that is in constant radio contact with a company which relies on DRM to protect its bottom line. Good luck with that. *MY* Kindle has an on-off switch on the back of the device that allows me to disable the cellular antenna. Due to the regulations requiring that transmission facilities be disabled during flights, it is highly unlikely that the Kindle would have the ability to turn on the cell feature when the switch is in the off position. I have no DRMed content except that purchased from the Kindle store, but even if I did, I could make sure that none of it were on the Kindle when the radio is active. Of course, there may be an activity log of some kind which is sent to the big Kindle server in the sky ...

It’s for that very reason that I won’t be buying any protected work in other formats, including Mobi. I can’t see that Amazon will allow loopholes in uploading to continue once the Kindle is established as market leader.

95% of the world's population can't buy a Kindle. Given that MobiPocket is a world-wide business, compared with the Kindle's very limited single-country market, Amazon would have to be raving lunatics to shut down Mobi. They paid a lot of money for it, and they did so for a very good reason - it's a highly-profitable business.

Amazon would have to be raving lunatics to shut down Mobi.

Never said that Amazon would shut down Mobi, but it does make sense for them to ensure that Mobi DRMed books don't open on the Kindle - or at least those which were bought from other vendors - and vice-versa. It's one of the ways in which they will seek to make the Kindle a 'must have'.

Argel :end:

So dramatic! If that is truly your view of Amazon and the Kindle, why in the world would you want to contribute to it?

Aw well, whatever you decide will probably ultimately work for you.

Good luck on your decision.

If that is truly your view of Amazon and the Kindle, why in the world would you want to contribute to it?

Good question. Same reason we buy from Amazon even though it means the little bookshop down the road is going to disappear, along with the owner who devoted his life to spreading the love of books. Or from the supermarket even though it kills off the small shopkeeper who treated us like a friend.

It's better for me.

Given that the Millennium Act provides for fines of $500,000 and five years in prison for circumventing DRM, I am amazed at the optimism of people who are cheerfully doing just that and then putting the files onto a device that is in constant radio contact with a company which relies on DRM to protect its bottom line. Good luck with that.



At least the Cybook doesn't have to divulge its contents to the world , so circumventing DRM , or otherwise doesn't have to be known .

I too worried about the longer-term possibilities that my next reader may not be able to read my present library - but life's too short for that kind of worry .

If it does happen there will , I'm sure , be ways around it - albeit illegal perhaps , but if I've spent money on e-books then I think " fair use " should allow me to adjust the e-book structure to fit any new reader formats , in much the same way that there is a tacit acceptance that a CD can be burned onto an MP3 player for own use .

Good question. Same reason we buy from Amazon even though it means the little bookshop down the road is going to disappear, along with the owner who devoted his life to spreading the love of books. Or from the supermarket even though it kills off the small shopkeeper who treated us like a friend.

It's better for me.

Actually it is one of the reasons, I did not buy a Kindle for myself.

Never said that Amazon would shut down Mobi, but it does make sense for them to ensure that Mobi DRMed books don't open on the Kindle - or at least those which were bought from other vendors - and vice-versa. It's one of the ways in which they will seek to make the Kindle a 'must have'.

My theory on why they don't interoperate is that Mobipocket has agreements with the companies that sell books in its format that it shall not undercut the price. Mobipocket.com sells books. You'll notice the prices are insane compared to other resellers. This agreement is why. I think Amazon is trying to keep the Mobipocket business and the Kindle business separate so it can argue that it is not violating this agreement while still being able to charge competitive prices. The .azw books, despite being Mobipocket format, are not nominally the same and cannot be read on Mobipocket software or anything other than a Kindle without using ToS-violating and possibly illegal methods.

Like Harry said, Kindle is only US. There are still plenty of people around the world that make a good market for Mobipocket.

Actually it is one of the reasons, I did not buy a Kindle for myself.

Same here.

My theory on why they don't interoperate is that Mobipocket has agreements with the companies that sell books in its

There is another reason. If they only have their own format can can update all software in the Kindles they can change the format so it supports new things. If people could buy MobiPocket books then they could not offer this new functionality for MobiPocket books and the total experience of the reader would be less.

You'll notice the prices are insane compared to other resellers.

Even worse, if you live in an EU country you get charged the French VAT rate of 19.6% on top of the already high prices :).

Given the favourable state of the US$ against both the Euro and the Pound, it makes a lot more sense for us Europeans to use US bookstores like Fictionwise.

Actually it is one of the reasons, I did not buy a Kindle for myself.

An interesting answer, despite fact that I was referring to cheap internet books as the cause of the loss of bookstores, not Kindles. But, allowing the subject to be changed, no-one who switches to ebooks can excuse themselves from the guilt of the local bookstore's closure. Buy paper locally and the store stays open. Not rocket science.

Change hurts; the least we can do is accept our complicity in the pain - especially when the main reason is so we can have neat new gadgets.

At least the Cybook doesn't have to divulge its contents to the world , so circumventing DRM , or otherwise doesn't have to be known .

I too worried about the longer-term possibilities that my next reader may not be able to read my present library - but life's too short for that kind of worry .

If it does happen there will , I'm sure , be ways around it - albeit illegal perhaps , but if I've spent money on e-books then I think " fair use " should allow me to adjust the e-book structure to fit any new reader formats , in much the same way that there is a tacit acceptance that a CD can be burned onto an MP3 player for own use .

I agree with everything you say. Fair use means that I take the stuff I have paid full price for and use it on any device I choose. Sadly, however, our American friends have passed a law saying that if we break their DRM we can go to jail for a long time. And as every UK citizen knows, if the US wants us then we will be handed over. But rest assured that I will sign the petition protesting at your extradition.

Seriously though, my main problem is that I think that the Kindle is going to be the only game in town for those who want the widest, cheapest and most immediate range of choices. And if I have a Kindle - soon, please God - then Jeff will know if I do naughty things with it.

My theory on why they don't interoperate is that Mobipocket has agreements with the companies that sell books in its format that it shall not undercut the price. Mobipocket.com sells books. You'll notice the prices are insane compared to other resellers. This agreement is why. I think Amazon is trying to keep the Mobipocket business and the Kindle business separate so it can argue that it is not violating this agreement while still being able to charge competitive prices. The .azw books, despite being Mobipocket format, are not nominally the same and cannot be read on Mobipocket software or anything other than a Kindle without using ToS-violating and possibly illegal methods.


Maybe I'm being stupid - often the case - but I'm not sure I see the arument here. You think that the publishers won't notice that Amazon is using basically the same format to publish books cheaper?

In any case, why does Amazon need to tread carefully? Who do you think really owns the book market today - Amazon or the publishers?

Seriusly though, my main problem is that I think that the Kindle is going to be the only game in town for those who want the widest, cheapest and most immediate range of choices.

Maybe. At present, though, among the books I am interested in, I don't find anything available for the Kindle that I can't get for my Cybook in Mobi format. And my average book price via Fictionwise & BooksOnBoard is about the same.

The availability of tools to strip DRM will make those books usable if I decide to upgrade to the next generation Kindle. Not that I would advocate using such tools, of course.

The availability of tools to strip DRM will make those books usable if I decide to upgrade to the next generation Kindle. Not that I would advocate using such tools, of course.

Of course you wouldn't. :) Not least because your future Kindle would immediately tell Jeff that you had loaded illegal files onto it.

Maybe I'm being stupid - often the case - but I'm not sure I see the arument here. You think that the publishers won't notice that Amazon is using basically the same format to publish books cheaper?

In any case, why does Amazon need to tread carefully? Who do you think really owns the book market today - Amazon or the publishers?

Oh, they know about it. They just don't care. In this case we are talking about books licensed to Mobipocket from publishers. The publisher sets the retail price, and the publisher gets paid a percentage of that retail price for each book sold.

Mobipocket sells ebooks, but it also distributes ebooks to other retail websites. Amazon is of the retailers. If Amazon chooses to sell some ebooks for less than retail, it doesn't matter to the publisher because the publisher's cut is based on the suggested retail price. The amount the publisher is paid doesn't change if the ebook is sold for less.

Yes. It's not the publishers I was referring to possibly having an issue, but the other resellers of Mobipocket books.

Oh, they know about it. They just don't care. In this case we are talking about books licensed to Mobipocket from publishers. The publisher sets the retail price, and the publisher gets paid a percentage of that retail price for each book sold.

Mobipocket sells ebooks, but it also distributes ebooks to other retail websites. Amazon is of the retailers. If Amazon chooses to sell some ebooks for less than retail, it doesn't matter to the publisher because the publisher's cut is based on the suggested retail price. The amount the publisher is paid doesn't change if the ebook is sold for less.

So in other words, Mobi can sell the ebook for whatever price it chooses, as long as it pays the correct percentage of the agreed retail price? Or have I misunderstood...

So in other words, Mobi can sell the ebook for whatever price it chooses, as long as it pays the correct percentage of the agreed retail price? Or have I misunderstood...

That's what he said. I think I heard somewhere that Amazon was taking a loss on alot of the best sellers... he was hopping publishers would come around and lower the wholsale prices on ebooks rather than price them the same as pbooks.

Although I don't know how amazon taking a loss is going to hurt the publishers or change their minds. Unless he figures the other ebook retailers that don't want to take a loss on these books will together put pressure on the publishers buy not selling these books, or whatever.

BOb

Although I don't know how amazon taking a loss is going to hurt the publishers or change their minds. Unless he figures the other ebook retailers that don't want to take a loss on these books will together put pressure on the publishers buy not selling these books, or whatever.

Amazon is all about market share. In an economy devoted to the quick return, Amazon had the courage to base their strategy on the long term. They have taken enormous flak from investors and commentators over their low margins and small profits. And each year their share of the market has grown because their stuff is cheaper and their service is better. Their profits are still pitiful for a concern of their size but who cares, they are gradually putting everyone else out of business.

I assume they will not change the business model for ebooks – in fact it works even better. They own the most popular format and their hardware standard will soon be the main game in town. So they have a few loss leaders. Who cares? We will all soon be locked into their format. Compared to the competition that Amazon have already trounced, the ebook retailers are extremely small beer.

It is the publishers who should worry. Ask yourself what would happen if Amazon set up their own publishing house and signed a basketful of the world’s top authors. Would anyone (in the real world) actually notice that Random House, for instance, had disappeared?

Amazon is all about market share. In an economy devoted to the quick return, Amazon had the courage to base their strategy on the long term.

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.

BOb

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.BOb

I don’t see what the mystery is. In effect, Amazon control the independent hardware market by owning Mobisoft and insisting on exclusive DRM deals with new manufacturers. If you want protected Mobi books on your device – and of course you do – then sign here and agree not to use other protected formats. Meanwhile they’ll be competing with you in the hardware market, selling the same files slightly cheaper. Heads I win, tails you lose.

The only possible alternative route is if the publishers put their collective foot down and insisted on a single DRM standard to which all hardware had to conform. But they won’t do it and, in the not too distant future, the existing publishing houses will be irrelevant anyway. Who needs them in the age of print on demand (via Amazon) and self-publish ebooks (via guess who).

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.


They want to sell the Kindle hardware. Standard Mobi books can also be read on PCs, PDAs, cell phones, Cybooks, etc.

They are still making money on Mobipocket for people outside the U.S. -- and those who prefer to read on a device other than the Kindle.

While if you are in the US they would prefer you buy a Kindle, they make some money either way.

They want to sell the Kindle hardware. Standard Mobi books can also be read on PCs, PDAs, cell phones, Cybooks, etc.


I'd actually be MORE likley to buy a kindle if a "kindle" book was actually a Mobipocket book. I think the truth is the reverse... they wanted people that bought a Kindle to only buy kindle books. It is the back end book sales where they make thier money.

BOb

I'd actually be MORE likley to buy a kindle if a "kindle" book was actually a Mobipocket book. I think the truth is the reverse... they wanted people that bought a Kindle to only buy kindle books. It is the back end book sales where they make thier money.

I think you're right on both counts but we also need to remember that they play the long game. The question is what happens two years down the line when you start looking for your next device.

For Kindle owners – or at least for those who are not techie and/or willing to break the law – the next generation Kindle will have a huge head-start because it will be the only device capable of reading their files. And the more Kindle-only files they persuade you to buy, the more you are tied in.

In the short term, provided they don’t make too much of a loss, they can be happy as long as the Kindle user-base is growing, because a high percentage of those users are likely to be Amazon customers for life.

Well said, I agree with your analysis. Although what I don't understand is why buy Mobipocket and then turn around and create a close system that uses a different file format and delivery model? That just didn't make sense to me... unless they plan to shut down Mobipocket.

BOb

Just a quick note that they HAVEN'T used a different file format - at least not for the overwhelming majority of Kindle books. It's just Mobi format with a "hidden" Mobi PID. That's why it's so easy to use Igorsk's Python script to "tweak" the header of any DRM-protected Mobi file so it'll run on the Kindle. They bought Mobi presumably so that they would have access to their DRM technology to use on the Kindle, and that's exactly what they've done.

There is a new file format called TOPAZ for the Kindle, but very, very few books use it. It supports font embedding, which Mobi books don't.

I'd actually be MORE likley to buy a kindle if a "kindle" book was actually a Mobipocket book.

Er, it is.

Just a quick note that they HAVEN'T used a different file format - at least not for the overwhelming majority of Kindle books. It's just Mobi format with a "hidden" Mobi PID.

While that may be "technically" true... pratically it is not.

Practically:
1. You can NOT read a DRMed MobiPocket book on a Kindle
2. You can NOT read a Kindle book on any device but a Kindle.

Those are the practical facts for the majority of customers. Yes, for a SMALL SMALL number of users that want to dig in, hack, use converters you can possibly do number one (1) above.

BOb

They bought Mobi presumably so that they would have access to their DRM technology to use on the Kindle, and that's exactly what they've done.

Next to Google, Amazon probably have as much practical computing power and expertise as any commercial organization on planet Earth. The idea that they needed to buy a [then] miniscule concern like Mobipocket in order to own a form of DRM that their programmers could probably have surpassed in a long weekend's work is faintly amusing.

Amazon bought Mobi because it gave them the opportunity to take effective control of the independent hardware market. It was simply quicker and cheaper than establishing their own standard in the marketplace. It's the old Microsoft tactic – when you notice a marketplace you don't control, buy one of the players and use your strength to make it the market leader.

Having bought Mobi I presume there was no reason not to tweak it for use on the Kindle in the short term – after all they had a stock of 50,000 files ready to go in the format. But you can be sure that they will close the door finally on interoperability between Mobi and Kindle whenever it suits them.

The Kindle is meant to be a straightjacket – it's just that it's a more comfortable straightjacket than any of the others on sale.

While that may be "technically" true... pratically it is not.

Practically:
1. You can NOT read a DRMed MobiPocket book on a Kindle
2. You can NOT read a Kindle book on any device but a Kindle.

Those are the practical facts for the majority of customers. Yes, for a SMALL SMALL number of users that want to dig in, hack, use converters you can possibly do number one (1) above.

BOb

OK, so you need to use a tool for DRM-protected books. But there are goodness knows how many DRM-free Mobi (and Kindle) books around, and these can be freely swapped between Kindle and Mobi devices. Kindle books ARE Mobi books.

But there are goodness knows how many DRM-free Mobi (and Kindle) books around, and these can be freely swapped between Kindle and Mobi devices. Kindle books ARE Mobi books.

Isn't that like going into a bookshop to be told 'We only sell out-of-copyright books but there are loads of them'?

Most of the books I really want are copyright and cannot be transferred. And I agree with Bob that the vast majority of users are not going to trawl the internet for [probably illegal] tools which appear and disappear like will-o-the-wisps.

Realistically, most people should not expect transfer between the two formats to be easy or even possible in the longer term.

Igorsk's tool is not illegal - it's not a DRM circumvention tool. It allows you to buy any DRM-protected book in a Mobi store, using the perfectly legitimate Mobi PID that your Kindle has, and then makes a very minor "tweak" to the book's header to allow the Kindle to read it. Absolutely not illegal.

The tools you are referring to such a "MobiDeDRM" are absolutely illegal in most countries, and personally I wouldn't touch such tools with the proverbial barge-pole.

Again, there are not "two formats". Kindle books ARE Mobipocket books - full stop!

Again, there are not "two formats". Kindle books ARE Mobipocket books - full stop!

The fact that you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

I will happily accept your assertion when you post an official response from Amazon and Mobi confirming that altering the file is not a breach of the EULA and not regarded as circumventing the DRM (which is illegal).

But I won't be holding my breath...

You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the file formats for yourself. Your carrying on saying that the formats are different equally "doesn't make it so".

Take any DRM-protected Kindle file. Rename it to ".prc" or ".mobi" and load it into MobiPocket Reader. What happens?

The results should be proof enough for anyone that it's a Mobi file.

You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the file formats for yourself. Your carrying on saying that the formats are different equally "doesn't make it so".

And mice and men share 97.5% of the same DNA but few mice can drive a car - no more can you open a protected Mobi file on a Kindle without making changes to it. Format is as format does, as Bob pointed out.

And mice and men share 97.5% of the same DNA but few mice can drive a car - no more can you open a protected Mobi file on a Kindle without making changes to it. Format is as format does, as Bob pointed out.

The reason you can't open it is because the Kindle device PID isn't present in the Mobi file. That does not mean that the files are in a "different format", which is what you are claiming. If I buy a Mobi book and you try to read it on your Mobipocket device, you won't be able to, for precisely the same reason. Doesn't mean that it's a different file format; it just means that it's not encoded for your device.

Oh my God, this is terrible. One of the angels just fell off the head of the pin - we have to stop before any more get hurt. :)

Copyright has generally been seen as a licence between the author/publisher and the reader. When the copyright holder issues a MOBI file authorized for the Kindle's PID, both of these parties agree that the ebook can be read on the Kindle. The party that disagrees is Amazon, but that clearly isn't an ebook copyright issue but instead an attempt to turn on its head the legal tradition that a purchaser can do whatever they want with the stuff they buy.

It is strong evidence for the legality of Igor's script that Amazon has not issued a take down notice for the software. What Amazon has done is prevent ebooks wholesaled by MobiPocket from accepting the Kindle PID. This is arguably violating the rights of publishers, but no publisher has any incentive to sue Amazon.

Copyright has generally been seen as a licence between the author/publisher and the reader... an attempt to turn on its head the legal tradition that a purchaser can do whatever they want with the stuff they buy.


Errr... your argument deconstructs slightly. An item under licence can only be used according to the terms of the licence. Purchase is a different concept, involving the surrender of rights by the seller.

But if you are right then all the publishers have to do is enforce their agreement with Amazon or decline to issue books in Mobi format. Given that ebooks are such a small part of the market, it would cost them very little and would put Amazon out of that market.

I'm genuinely interested in the implication of your post that Amazon do not have separate agreements with publishers for Kindle. Does this mean that when best-sellers appear for $15-$20 in Mobi and $10 for Kindle, this is just Amazon taking the hit, not a separate contract?

You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the file formats for yourself. Your carrying on saying that the formats are different equally "doesn't make it so".

Take any DRM-protected Kindle file. Rename it to ".prc" or ".mobi" and load it into MobiPocket Reader. What happens?

The results should be proof enough for anyone that it's a Mobi file.

The important point is that because they have full control over the format and the update of the reading software they can change it. Also there is nothing that says that a kindle file will display correctly in a MobiPocket reader. Why should they keep the bad limitations of the MobiPocket format when they have full control over all readers?

I'm genuinely interested in the implication of your post that Amazon do not have separate agreements with publishers for Kindle. Does this mean that when best-sellers appear for $15-$20 in Mobi and $10 for Kindle, this is just Amazon taking the hit, not a separate contract? Not all Kindle ebooks are sold under MobiPocket contracts. However, under MobiPocket's standard agreement (https://www.mobipocket.com/ebookbase/en/Homepage/pub_agreement.asp) with publishers, Amazon can also sell the ebook for the Kindle on the same terms (35% of the "Digital List Price" going to the publisher). Amazon is taking a hit but it has no wholesaler in the loop (it is the wholesaler), also $9.99/0.35 = $28.54 and the average list price of a new ebook is probably less than $28.54.

Well after all that, I've ordered a Cybook.

I was originally inclined to wait for a Kindlle but in the end I decided that if Amazon want to treat me like a second-class customer because I live outside the US, then I don't feel any great need to wait for them to change their minds. In fact, as a result, I've reduced my (very considerable) purchases of all kinds from Amazon only to those where there's no alternative source.

If only there were a way to buy ebooks in a format that doesn't provide Amazon with income and then reformat them to work with Mobi. :rolleyes: <-- feigned innocence

Well after all that, I've ordered a Cybook.

You won't regret it...


If only there were a way to buy ebooks in a format that doesn't provide Amazon with income and then reformat them to work with Mobi. :rolleyes: <-- feigned innocence

No comment (good luck)... :chinscratch:

If only there were a way to buy ebooks in a format that doesn't provide Amazon with income and then reformat them to work with Mobi. :rolleyes: <-- feigned innocence

I'll give you the answer in one word...

ConvertLIT

I'll give you the answer in one word...


Shhhhhhhhhhhh. I did say 'feigned' innocence. :)

Shhhhhhhhhhhh. I did say 'feigned' innocence. :)

:rolleyes:

Shhhhhhhhhhhh. I did say 'feigned' innocence. :)

Sorry, you said "what" ?

fainted in horror?

G.
(There are no innocents here)...

OK, OK, I give in. Thanks for all the replies, though I think that many of you have a very different attitude to the buying and owning of books. My idea of the bare essentials would be the complete contents of the Bodleian Library (for starters).

I think I’m going to have to fall into the arms of Bezos, because it seems to me inevitable that he is going to win and, as a result, that is the only place where I’m going to be able to get anything close to all the books I want, when I want them. I say that with a certain heaviness of heart because I do mistrust Amazon’s motives in the long term.

It’s for that very reason that I won’t be buying any protected work in other formats, including Mobi. I can’t see that Amazon will allow loopholes in uploading to continue once the Kindle is established as market leader. Given that the Millennium Act provides for fines of $500,000 and five years in prison for circumventing DRM, I am amazed at the optimism of people who are cheerfully doing just that and then putting the files onto a device that is in constant radio contact with a company which relies on DRM to protect its bottom line. Good luck with that.

In any case, in stark financial terms, from the titles I’ve been looking at, the difference in price between Kindle editions and others is significant, and not just for best-sellers. I will even save money over my current paper-based buying.

And so, with grim resignation I have to say ‘Give me the contract Mr Bezos, I’m ready to sign over my soul. What’s that? I can’t buy the Kindle in the UK and you can’t tell me if and when I might be able to?’

Now I'm really depressed.

FX: Sound of sobbing fades into the distance....

Argel

Constant contact?? Nooooooo. Amazon has no earthly idea of what I keep on my Kindle. For one thing, most of my content is stored on my SD card, which is removable. And, I generally keep the Whispernet off. If I were really paranoid about Amazon snooping on my content, I would simply remove the SD card before turning on Whispernet.

Although, I see you bought a Cybook. So, it's really a moot point.


:D

Whispernet, strange name for the sssshhhh-channel...

if Amazon want to treat me like a second-class customer because I live outside the US, then I don't feel any great need to wait for them to change their minds.

Please... Amazon is not treating you as a second class customer any more than Telestra in Austraila treats me as a second class customer because they can't provide me phone service here in the US or the London Electric company won't provide me electrical service here in Florida.

BOb

Sadly, however, our American friends have passed a law saying that if we break their DRM we can go to jail for a long time. And as every UK citizen knows, if the US wants us then we will be handed over. But rest assured that I will sign the petition protesting at your extradition.


That is easily said from the comfort of your own Home, God forbid nothing infringes on an individuals rights to do or say whatever they are so inclined to at any given moment. I seriously hope that trying to decide on a Reader is the most traumatic event in your life. I wouldnt want you to suffer any more emotional stress!

Well after all that, I've ordered a Cybook.
I was originally inclined to wait for a Kindlle but in the end I decided that if Amazon want to treat me like a second-class customer because I live outside the US, then I don't feel any great need to wait for them to change their minds. In fact, as a result, I've reduced my (very considerable) purchases of all kinds from Amazon only to those where there's no alternative source.


Please... Amazon is not treating you as a second class customer any more than Telestra in Austraila treats me as a second class customer because they can't provide me phone service here in the US or the London Electric company won't provide me electrical service here in Florida.

BOb

I am going to try and keep a civil Hand while typing, However I am about tired of people complaining about U.S. only products, It has been that way since the beginning of commerce Some products are regional that is a fact of life, from car models to electronic gadgets I mean Korea gets some of the best cell phones in the world 2 years before they hit the States if we get them at all. Bottom line if you dont like the selection where you are then by all means Move! Otherwise make do with what you have or accept the limitations of the alternatives Oh and Bob you hit the nail on the head with your response I just included your quote so not to repeat.

JJ

Please... Amazon is not treating you as a second class customer any more than Telestra in Austraila treats me as a second class customer because they can't provide me phone service here in the US or the London Electric company won't provide me electrical service here in Florida.

BOb

Your point would make some sense if it were not for the fact that that a Kindle will work perfectly well in the UK except for the wireless connection. The only problem is that Amazon refuse to sell me one.

That is easily said from the comfort of your own Home, God forbid nothing infringes on an individuals rights to do or say whatever they are so inclined to at any given moment. I seriously hope that trying to decide on a Reader is the most traumatic event in your life. I wouldnt want you to suffer any more emotional stress!


It's not at all clear what your point is. The quote you have extracted was a light-hearted reply to someone who asserted their right to strip DRM from files and change the format. However if you wish to take issue, it is a fact that British citizens can be extradited to the US with very little right of appeal. It is also a fact that your government have refused to ratify the treaty which would grant reciprocal rights to UK courts.


I am going to try and keep a civil Hand while typing, However I am about tired of people complaining about U.S. only products, It has been that way since the beginning of commerce Some products are regional that is a fact of life, from car models to electronic gadgets I mean Korea gets some of the best cell phones in the world 2 years before they hit the States if we get them at all. Bottom line if you dont like the selection where you are then by all means Move! Otherwise make do with what you have or accept the limitations of the alternatives Oh and Bob you hit the nail on the head with your response I just included your quote so not to repeat.

JJ

Well clearly you failed in your aim to maintain a civil hand but never mind, perhaps it's the habit of command. In any case it's good to hear a member of the US military arguing for the acceptance of geographical limitations - they are more usually found invading other countries.

It's not at all clear what your point is. The quote you have extracted was a light-hearted reply to someone who asserted their right to strip DRM from files and change the format. However if you wish to take issue, it is a fact that British citizens can be extradited to the US with very little right of appeal. It is also a fact that your government have refused to ratify the treaty which would grant reciprocal rights to UK courts.



Well clearly you failed in your aim to maintain a civil hand but never mind, perhaps it's the habit of command. In any case it's good to hear a member of the US military arguing for the acceptance of geographical limitations - they are more usually found invading other countries.

Interesting interpretation What does anything I have said have to do with Political issues? I was simply saying Product availability has always been regional. (We are not talking about a necessity here just an indulgence.)

Europe really shouldn't protest when their own protectionist trade barriers bite them in the hind quarters. CE directives basically copied existing regulations from elsewhere, many from the US, and then declared that products certified to the pre-existing regulations that the European Union copied are no longer legal to sell in Europe unless the foreign (American) company pays tens of thousands of dollars to have a European certifying authority re-certify something that has already been certified to fully equivalent specs. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Well clearly you failed in your aim to maintain a civil hand but never mind, perhaps it's the habit of command. In any case it's good to hear a member of the US military arguing for the acceptance of geographical limitations - they are more usually found invading other countries.

And good to see you being so civil. Comments like this make me long for an "ignore user" function on this forum.

And good to see you being so civil. Comments like this make me long for an "ignore user" function on this forum.

"Ditto"

And good to see you being so civil. Comments like this make me long for an "ignore user" function on this forum.

"Ditto"

Glad it wasn't just me.....

There is an "ignore user" function. Go to user CP and it's on the left hand side.

That is easily said from the comfort of your own Home, God forbid nothing infringes on an individuals rights to do or say whatever they are so inclined to at any given moment. I seriously hope that trying to decide on a Reader is the most traumatic event in your life. I wouldnt want you to suffer any more emotional stress!
JJ

So this is not a personal attack, completely unprovoked? Hypocrisy personified.