Hi All,
I have a copyright question.

I've converted a few books from PDF to HTML to LRF for my Sony reader. These books are freely available on the internet as they have been written by authors long deceased, except for the Popol Vu.

The Books are
"The Richest Man in Babylon"
"The Law of Success" by Napoleon Hill
and
"The Popol Vu" translation by Delia Gotez

The last book was not registered nor has it been renewed. I think this is book is still copyrighted by US law. Life+70 yrs.

Anyhow before I upload these files I would like to make sure I'm not breaking any copyright laws by posting them on the internet.

=X=

A translation has its own copyright, independent of that of the original work. In what year did the translator die?

MobileRead's servers are in Canada, which means we follow Canada's Life+50 rule, with a very few exceptions (there are a few books that are PD in the U.S. that aren't in Canada).

Also bear in mind, that translations get their own copyright date, which would depend on the death of the translator, so that translation may not actually be PD.

I can't find anything on Delia Gotez with just a quick look, and George Samuel Clason (The Richest Man In Babylon) died in 1957, so it may be okay, but Napoleon Hill seems to have died in 1970, so unless those books were specifically released into PD early, I'm afraid they're probably not PD.

HarryT is our resident copyright aficionado, so I'd probably better suggest you wait to hear from him.

Ah, I see he's responded while I was googling and wiki-ing. :D

If he died in 1957, then it's OK - it entered the public domain in Canada on 1st Jan 2008. The others, however, are not OK.

If he died in 1957, then it's OK - it entered the public domain in Canada on 1st Jan 2008. The others, however, are not OK.

Individual copyrights can be extended by the owner, so I'm not sure it's good to make generic assessments that if the author is over 50 years dead it automatically means the book isn't copyrighted. It's probably not, but it's not definite unless you do a search for the specific item.

MobileRead's servers are in Canada, which means we follow Canada's Life+50 rule, with a very few exceptions (there are a few books that are PD in the U.S. that aren't in Canada).

Is it not the case that copyright is determined by the country of origin for signatories to the Berne Convention (inc. Canada)?

So British works, for example, would be copyrighted in Canada for life + 70, as they would be in Britain.

Unless I've misunderstood the Convention, which is a distinct possibility :o.

Doh, just double checked and seems local copyright applies to foreign works - apologies for the confusion :o:o

I also thought copyright was determined by the law in the country of origin. Or maybe by the country the owner is a citizen of?

Maybe Mobile Read could consult an attorney and come up with some real guidelines? I know I'd be interested, seems like MR would be interested in getting it right too.

Virtually all the stuff we have here is created from PG sources, and they DO have lawyers to ensure that they get it right, of course. All we can realistically do in cases like the question posed here is ask the uploader to ensure that what they're uploading is in the public domain since nobody here is a copyright lawyer. We know the general way it works, but not the nitty-gritty details.

My understanding of the way it works for printed material is that it's the origin of the publication that matters. That's why, for example, PG stuff in the US has to be scanned from a US edition, since it's only that specific edition that's guaranteed to be out of copyright in the US - a British (or other) edition of the same work may not be (or vice versa).

I also thought copyright was determined by the law in the country of origin. Or maybe by the country the owner is a citizen of?

Maybe Mobile Read could consult an attorney and come up with some real guidelines? I know I'd be interested, seems like MR would be interested in getting it right too.

We have guidelines. the problem we have in this case is that we are unable to apply them because we lack data on the work in question.We do not know the date of the copyright; nor do we know the date of the translator's death, or even if the translator is dead.

The length of term of copyright is different from one country to the next, and is not dependent upon the country of origin. For instance, Laura Ingalls Wilder wrote her books in the USA before she died in 1957. Under US law, her work is still in copyright. But they are not in copyright under Canadian law because she died more than 50 years ago. Since the MobileRead servers are based in Canada, we can legally host a copy.

I did not think Delia Goetz was dead apparently she died in 1996. So it appears her book is still has copyright.

The book is available online with the following excerpt "[1954, copyright not registered or renewed]", but in the states one does not have to register to have their work copyright
Here is the site.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/maya/pvgm/


You know what is weird is I know mobiread has the book "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill. I assumed all his works where PD. If he died in 1970 then his book is still CR. (Unless he PD the book)

Is it not the case that copyright is determined by the country of origin for signatories to the Berne Convention (inc. Canada)?

I am pretty sure this is not how the Berne Convention works.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_an d_Artistic_Works) (emphasis mine):

The Berne Convention requires its signatories to recognise the copyright of works of authors from other signatory countries (known as members of the Berne Union) in the same way it recognises the copyright of its own nationals, which means that, for instance, French copyright law applies to anything published or performed in France, regardless of where it was originally created.

In addition to establishing a system of equal treatment that internationalised copyright amongst signatories, the agreement also required member states to provide strong minimum standards for copyright law.

And the minimal standard for copyright law in Canada is (Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain#Laws_of_Canada.2C_Australia.2C_and_o ther_Commonwealth_nations)):

Canada and New Zealand have not, as of 2006, passed similar twenty-year extensions. Consequently, their copyright expiry times are still life of the author plus 50 years.

Virtually all the stuff we have here is created from PG sources, and they DO have lawyers to ensure that they get it right, of course. All we can realistically do in cases like the question posed here is ask the uploader to ensure that what they're uploading is in the public domain since nobody here is a copyright lawyer. We know the general way it works, but not the nitty-gritty details.

My understanding of the way it works for printed material is that it's the origin of the publication that matters. That's why, for example, PG stuff in the US has to be scanned from a US edition, since it's only that specific edition that's guaranteed to be out of copyright in the US - a British (or other) edition of the same work may not be (or vice versa).

Um, no. Where the work was published doesn't matter. Where it currently is, that's what matters. If you take a book (written by an author who died 55 years ago) from a life+70 country to a life+50 country, you can do whatever you want with it. It's out of copyright under the local laws.

For instance, Laura Ingalls Wilder wrote her books in the USA before she died in 1957. Under US law, her work is still in copyright. But they are not in copyright under Canadian law because she died more than 50 years ago.

One has to be a little careful in saying that, Nate.

A Canadian version of one of her books would indeed be out of copyright, but a US edition would still be in copyright, since it is protected by US copyright law, even in Canada. It would need to be the Canadian edition which one scanned and uploaded. PG are very rigorous about that kind of thing.

One has to be a little careful in saying that, Nate.

A Canadian version of one of her books would indeed be out of copyright, but a US edition would still be in copyright, since it is protected by US copyright law, even in Canada. It would need to be the Canadian edition which one scanned and uploaded. PG are very rigorous about that kind of thing.

You cannot sue someone under US law if you are in Canada. You have to be in the US to do that.

Harry, you are talking to a detail obsessed person who spent a few dozen hours learning this stuff. i know I am correct on this point.

Um, no. Where the work was published doesn't matter. Where it currently is, that's what matters. If you take a book (written by an author who died 55 years ago) from a life+70 country to a life+50 country, you can do whatever you want with it. It's out of copyright under the local laws.

I don't believe that this is correct. My understanding is that the Berne Convention grants the author the same protection in any signatory country that they have in their own country for that specific printed edition.

That is my understanding. I am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong! I do, know, however, that the reason that PG are so careful about which versions they scan is that they say that it has to be an edition printed in the country that the work is now out of copyright in.

I don't believe that this is correct. My understanding is that the Berne Convention grants the author the same protection in any signatory country that they have in their own country for that specific printed edition.

That is my understanding. I am happy to be correct if I'm wrong! I do, know, however, that the reason that PG are so careful about which versions they scan is that they say that it has to be an edition printed in the country that the work is now out of copyright in.

Harry, check my reply a few posts before.

Under the Berne Convention, a member nation agrees to guarantee the works originating in other member countries the rights that its own laws grant to the works created in its own country.

This is not the same as to say that an author has the same protection everywhere within the Berne Union as in his home country.

Harry, check my reply a few posts before.

Under the Berne Convention, a member nation agrees to guarantee the works originating in other member countries the rights that its own laws grant to the works created in its own country.

This is not the same as to say that an author has the same protection everywhere among within the Berne Union as in his home country.

Ah, I see, yes. Thank you for the clarification. In that case, I agree with Nate and happily stand corrected.

Since Harry and Nate the GREAT have different opinions on the guidelines and the "facts" I'd say you don't have clear guidelines. Is there a post with guidelines written by someone who knows the law? Where is it? Or are we playing "interpret the law any way that we want it to go" again?

And I suppose I'll again say that a person or company (copyright holder) can extend a copyright so there are no blanket copyright laws that apply - this according to US law. You'd have to search for a current copyright on each individual book to be sure it hasn't been extended. I believe Gutenberg does this, that's why I intend to stick with distributing Gutenberg books or books with clear cc licenses: I don't have the time, knowledge, or money to go searching the copyright status of every book I might want to post online. And I don't want to illegally distribute anything. I'd rather distribute nothing than steal people's work.

I am thinking that if I copyright a book in the US then other countries don't have any right to decide it's legal to make and sell copies without my permission. There must be international copyright laws. MR could easily consult with a copyright attorney and have some legal guidelines written up.

And wikipedia is good (I love it) but is in no way a source of information you can consider to be accurate enough to use to make legal judgements.

I am thinking that if I copyright a book in the US then other countries don't have any right to decide it's legal to make and sell copies without my permission. There must be international copyright laws.

There is no such thing as international copyright laws. There are only treaties and unions among member countries. Do you know The Pirate Bay, which has existed since 2004? The Americans aren't happy about it, but unless the Swedes adopt their laws, there is nothing that can be done legally to stop them from operating.

I suggest the following news article which serves as a good example of how politics determine copyright laws and how copyright laws today are not harmonized on an international level:

http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/206012

Since Harry and Nate the GREAT have different opinions on the guidelines and the "facts" I'd say you don't have clear guidelines. Is there a post with guidelines written by someone who knows the law? Where is it? Or are we playing "interpret the law any way that we want it to go" again?

And I suppose I'll again say that a person or company (copyright holder) can extend a copyright so there are no blanket copyright laws that apply - this according to US law. You'd have to search for a current copyright on each individual book to be sure it hasn't been extended. I believe Gutenberg does this, that's why I intend to stick with distributing Gutenberg books or books with clear cc licenses: I don't have the time, knowledge, or money to go searching the copyright status of every book I might want to post online. And I don't want to illegally distribute anything. I'd rather distribute nothing than steal people's work.


I do know the law. You are slightly incorrect about extending copyright under US law. Anything created after 1964 is absolutely positively in copyright for a fixed number of years. The works created before 1964 did have to have the copyright renewed in its 28th year.


I am thinking that if I copyright a book in the US then other countries don't have any right to decide it's legal to make and sell copies without my permission. There must be international copyright laws. MR could easily consult with a copyright attorney and have some legal guidelines written up.

And wikipedia is good (I love it) but is in no way a source of information you can consider to be accurate enough to use to make legal judgements.

If your own country can decide to make it legal to make copies without your permission, then why can't other countries? Or, we can turn your assumption around. Why would you think your country can make laws that are legally enforcible in other countries?

P.S. Copyright is a privilege, not a right. At some point the privilege will expire. When it expires varies from country to country.

The link to Mobile Read's ebook posting copyright guidelines?

http://www.mobileread.com/copyright.html

The link to Mobile Read's ebook posting copyright guidelines?And also: http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_uploads#What_Is_In_the_Public_Domain

It is becoming increasingly difficult for me to assume that you do not realize how excruciatingly arrogant you seem when you phrase things in the ways you recently have.

Personally I respect your stance on these matters, but it would be nice to have a little respect displayed in the opposite direction: Just because we don't discuss and formulate forum policies right out in the public areas of the forum does not mean that completely ignore them, and your persistent implication that we do is increasingly seeming like a calculated attempt to offer insult.

Further, just because we don't adhere to a particular interpretation of the subject does not mean that we don't care about it and just do whatever occurs to us at the time. We are working on a volunteer basis here, and do not have the resources you seem to be implying we should (and assuming we do) in order for this forum to be worthy of the privilege of existing.

You have every right to disagree with our policies. Further, there is no inherent problem with you, or anyone else, questioning them, either to find out what the are in the first place, or in an attempt to help us see a better interpretation.

However, I, for one, do not recognize in you any authority to act as some sort of inquisitor, which is the tone your past questions have taken.

If you are so mortally offended that our policies are not the policies you would put in place, or displayed in the fashion that you would display them, that you cannot discuss the topic in a respectful, non-condescending manner, I respectfully invite you to avoid the topic entirely.

For the moment, I'm assuming that copyright definitions allow PD privilege to books published in another country move to a life + 50 country (i.e. Canada).

If so, since I live in a highly restrictive country (U.S.), I can't scan and put books into Canadian PD due to US law (to which I am subject to) which are still in copyright in the US. However, I could provide p-books to somebody else in a life + 50 country to scan legally.

Anybody interested in James Branch Cabell (The 50th anniversary of his death is May 3, his works would then go into PD in life +50 on Jan 1,2009)

The first link (http://www.mobileread.com/copyright.html) goes to a page which gives some copyright guidelines concerning uploading books at mobile read, which is what I was asking about. Which is what the thread is about. Personally I think it could be made even more clear by stating "these are the rules for posting ebooks at mobile read" and then being very clear about what is acceptable and what is not. But it's certainly more clear than the previous discussion in this thread, and it's nice to know that the page exists.

One question: under Canadian law can a copyright holder extend the copyright? If so, then each book would have to be researched individually for it's current status, which was my original point. A blanket assumption that if the author has been dead for 50 years then the book is in the public domain may not be accurate.

One suggestion: make that page more readily accessible to not only people posting books but moderators trying to decide if a book is acceptable at MR. If both moderators were familiar with the page, they wouldn't have had the discussion they did in this thread. If the original poster had read it, he wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

The second link (http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_uploads#What_Is_In_the_Public_Domain) goes to a page that talks in a generic way about copyright and public domain and in fact concentrates on US law, which, if anything, confuses the issue since apparently it's Canadian law which governs what is legal to post here.

For the moment, I'm assuming that copyright definitions allow PD privilege to books published in another country move to a life + 50 country (i.e. Canada).

If so, since I live in a highly restrictive country (U.S.), I can't scan and put books into Canadian PD due to US law (to which I am subject to) which are still in copyright in the US. However, I could provide p-books to somebody else in a life + 50 country to scan legally.

Anybody interested in James Branch Cabell (The 50th anniversary of his death is May 3, his works would then go into PD in life +50 on Jan 1,2009)

And here is an excellent point which could be clarified on the copyright page. If I live in the US but the server is in Canada, can I post an ebook that is legal in Canada but not in the US? You have people from all over the world posting here, that would be a good point to clear up.

And here is an excellent point which could be clarified on the copyright page. If I live in the US but the server is in Canada, can I post an ebook that is legal in Canada but not in the US? You have people from all over the world posting here, that would be a good point to clear up.It would be legal for the book to be on the Canadian server where MobileRead resides which are governed by Canadian law. But it would technically be illegal for Ralph, Sir Edward to post the thing from within the U.S. because U.S. copyright law would apply to his uploading it.

Thank you, by the way, for toning down your phrasing. :nice:

have to search for a current copyright on each individual book to be sure it hasn't been extended. I believe Gutenberg does this

Indeed. PG needs a copy of the title page. If the book was published in 1922 or prior it's in the public domain in the USA.

Please mind that PG only takes in consideration USA's law. PG's ebooks can be read by everyone living in the USA. If you live elsewhere you need to check if the book is in public domain in your own country.

A book published in the USA in 1920 from an author who died in 1950:

can be published, redistributed, downloaded and read in the USA (i. e. by/from PG);
can be published, redistributed, downloaded and read in Canada (i. e. by/from MR)
can not be published, redistributed, downloaded and read in the European Union.


Copyright laws are hard to understand, complex, different from country (countries tend to disagree in what concerns copyright law).

@ cmbs: I am a lawyer with a pos-graduation in copyright law. You can certainly pay me 200 dollars per hour so that I can write up some guidelines for MR. ;)

If a book in the public domain in Canada but it is not in the public domain in the US (where you live), you CAN NOT upload it to MR under US law but MR CAN certainly publish it

@ cmbs: I am a lawyer with a pos-graduation in copyright law. You can certainly pay me 200 dollars per hour so that I can write up some guidelines for MR. ;)


I could make a greedy lawyer joke here... but nah... too easy.

BOb

Indeed. PG needs a copy of the title page. If the book was published in 1922 or prior it's in the public domain in the USA.

Please mind that PG only takes in consideration USA's law. PG's ebooks can be read by everyone living in the USA. If you live elsewhere you need to check if the book is in public domain in your own country.

A book published in the USA in 1920 from an author who died in 1950:

can be published, redistributed, downloaded and read in the USA (i. e. by/from PG);
can be published, redistributed, downloaded and read in Canada (i. e. by/from MR)
can not be published, redistributed, downloaded and read in the European Union.


Copyright laws are hard to understand, complex, different from country (countries tend to disagree in what concerns copyright law).

@ cmbs: I am a lawyer with a pos-graduation in copyright law. You can certainly pay me 200 dollars per hour so that I can write up some guidelines for MR. ;)

If a book in the public domain in Canada but it is not in the public domain in the US (where you live), you CAN NOT upload it to MR under US law but MR CAN certainly publish it

If this were my website, it would be worth it to me to pay an attorney to provide some guidelines because we are talking about potentially illegal activities here. But I don't have money to be hiring lawyers for MR. It is nice to know someone here knows some of this stuff though. :)

If a book is in the public domain in Canada but not in the US I also shouldn't be downloading it, right? So just because a book is on this site, and is legal for the site to distribute it, doesn't mean it's legal for everyone to download it. Right?

All this could go on the copyright page.

If this were my website, it would be worth it to me to pay an attorney to provide some guidelines because we are talking about potentially illegal activities here. But I don't have money to be hiring lawyers for MR. It is nice to know someone here knows some of this stuff though. :)

Well, in the US "safe harbor" rules apply... which is how Youtube hasn't had any problems yet. Not sure if a similar law exists in Canada.

BOb

If a book is in the public domain in Canada but not in the US I also shouldn't be downloading it, right? So just because a book is on this site, and is legal for the site to distribute it, doesn't mean it's legal for everyone to download it. Right?

Right. And right.

All this could go on the copyright page.

Totally agree. The copyright page should be prominently shown (eg., a big link and/or a disclaimer from the download pages.)

MR should probably use some legal advise from folks at PG-Canada.

Canada's public domain follows the life+50 rule. BUT... which editionscan you use? can you use a 2008 edition of Shakespeare's Hamlet? do you have any proof of which edition you have used? (perhaps you should better to).

It should probably be a good idea to centralize the uploading process or at least having someone to check every single new item for copyright status.

Next to the name/title there should be a born-death date.

MR must, indeed, take in consideration that all it takes to shut down the website is having one protected item in the catalog.

MR must, indeed, take in consideration that all it takes to shut down the website is having one protected item in the catalog.

We are VERY well aware of this. That's why we ask people to let us know if they think that anything that's been uploaded is not legal, and remove such items immediately.

Since the overwhelming majority of uploads either originate at PG or are distributed under creative common licences, this has not been a significant issue.

Virtually all the stuff we have here is created from PG sources, ................

A reasonable proportion of what I've seen on PG says

"Not copyrighted in the United States". on the download page , and yet MR doesn't make that clear in any of the creations added to its library , or does it ?

imho copyright is such a minefield it is easy to get your knickers in a twist with what is and what is not allowable - that's before including specific country definitions . and of course much of copyright law appears to pre-date internet days ..

A reasonable proportion of what I've seen on PG says

"Not copyrighted in the United States". on the download page , and yet MR doesn't make that clear in any of the creations added to its library , or does it ?


No, it doesn't. This is a world-wide site and it's very much the responsibility of the downloader to ensure that what they are downloading is legal for them to download. All the books we host here are in the public domain either in Canada or the United states; it's up to the user to determine what he or she is legally able to download - we can't keep track of what's in the public domain (or not) in dozens of different countries.

And we certainly can't keep track of what countries our members are in -- let alone the folks who download things without ever joining! :wreck:

-- let alone the folks who download things without ever joining! :wreck:

now that's a surprise , would have thought it was a members' only option ..

No - you can download without being a member.

now that's a surprise , would have thought it was a members' only option ..Nope. It's open.

We've discussed "closing" it a few times, usually after a batch of "our" books show up on the Darknet somewhere. Would you believe idiots actually take the time to extract them from LRF and repost them? The results of that operation are much worse than the Project Gutenberg originals -- some folks are just dumber than a whole bag of hammers ... oops, wrong thread.

Anyway, the consensus is that we don't want to give folks who drop by the impression that they have to join. A surprising number of "guests" still do decide to join, actually, and we like it that way. :nice:

No - you can download without being a member.

oops - ignore me - i got me ups and downs crossed .. :smack:

Yes, you do have to be a member to upload :D.

Whew. Glad we got that sorted. :wink:

Whew. Glad we got that sorted. :wink:

right - back to :book2: , before I get meself in any more doodoo

:locked:

I think everything's been said here that can be usefully said. If you feel like there is something else on that matter that needs to be discussed, feel free to contact a moderator directly via PM. Thread closed.