I found a couple of texts by Frigyes Karinthy whom i mentioned (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174682&postcount=5) in the "obscure books" thread, and i wanted to upload them.

they are : the novel Please, Sir ! (http://mek.oszk.hu/00700/00770/00770.htm) and a short story in this collection here (http://vmek.oszk.hu/00400/00433/00433.htm#18) (i don't know about the pd status of the other authors in the collection, so i probably would add the short story by Karinthy to the novel and make one ebook).

Karinthy died in 1938, so his work is PD in Canada already and will be in the US and France next year (if i have understood everything correctly...) however in this case the texts are translations, how does this work ? i have found reference to an István Farkas (translator of Please, Sir !) online but he was a hungarian painter, who died in 1944 ; i don't know if it is the same man.

there is a bibliography here (http://www.frankfurt.matav.hu/angol/irok/karinthy/public.htm), and scrolling down there is a list of "Foreign Language Publications" where i found mention of this version of Please, Sir ! however i don't really understand it. The information it gives is :
Tanár úr kérem!
Please, Sir! Tr. by István Farkas.
Budapest: Corvina, 1968.
Berlin-Leipzig: Vogel, 1925.
Warsaw: Nasza Kriegaia, 1959.
Prague: Ceskoslov. spisovatel, 1959.
Tel Aviv: Éked, 1960.
Tallin: Ajalehtede Ajakinjade Kinjasten, 1960.
Bucharest: Ed. Tineretului, 1961.
Novi Sad: Forum, 1965.
Ozoir-La-Ferriére: In fine, 1992.

It is the correct version (translator István Farkas), however why so many dates ? are they dates of publication ?

it also mentions the short story :
A cirkusz
Berlin: Reurs-Pollack, 1913.
Prague: Odeon, 1975; Dilic, 1959.
Brussels: Van Belberghe, 1995.

short version of my question, can i upload these texts ?

A translation (even of a work that's in the public domain) has its own copyright - ie the translation doesn't enter the public domain until 70/50 years after the death of the translator.

ok, so what do i do in the case of this mysterious István Farkas ? i cannot find any specific information about Farkas, translator, other than a list of his translations (http://www.babelguides.com/view/person/5889). if it is the painter (perhaps he was multi-talented), he died in 1944, it is pd in canada. if it is not, i have no idea. there is no copyright info in the pages where i found the texts.

Looks like he's still alive. See:

http://www.translationdirectory.com/translators/english_hungarian/istvan_farkas.php

... although it's possible it's not the same person. There is a link on that page to e-mail him, however, so you could send him an e-mail and ask him.

i did see that actually, however i don't think it's the same person, as he is listed as a translator since 2000, whereas the translations i am talking about were first published in the early 1900's (1925 for the novel, 1913 for the short story). i think it's highly unlikely that the translator would still be alive ; it's a question of finding out when he died.

Yes, I see what you mean!

A further Google search shows books translated by him in 1971 (a translation of the letters of the composer Bartok), so I'm afraid that would mean that he's certainly not in the public domain anywhere yet.

I couldn't find anything on the translator.

Darn it. Why didn't he have the courtesy to start his Wikipedia article before he died? :rofl:

A further Google search shows books translated by him in 1971 (a translation of the letters of the composer Bartok), so I'm afraid that would mean that he's certainly not in the public domain anywhere yet.
if we suppose it's the same guy... there are already 2 of them, for all we know this name is the hungarian equivalent of "John Smith" in english...

I couldn't find anything on the translator.

Darn it. Why didn't he have the courtesy to start his Wikipedia article before he died? :rofl:
i KNOW !!!! sheesh, some people are so inconsiderate...

It might be worth sending an e-mail to the one who is still around and asking him if he knows anything about his "namesake". Perhaps it's the "family business" :).

you know, if ever there were a poster child for the advocates of simplifying copyright law, this case is it.

just to keep y'all updated (because i know you are fascinated by this saga, and waiting impatiently to know whether you will be able to read ebooks by Karinthy soon... :rolleyes:), i have sent a mail to the translator homonym of Farkas. now, just waiting to see if he will reply, and whether he knows anything about his homonym...

I have a different question about copyright/public domain. This may have been answered in another thread, if so..I'm sorry.

Looking through Kindle books on the Amazon site, I am seeing books for sale that are in the public domain (found on Gutenberg, ManyBooks, etc).

Is this legal? Should I quit my day job and start an 'e-publishing' house for pd books?

I have a different question about copyright/public domain. This may have been answered in another thread, if so..I'm sorry.

Looking through Kindle books on the Amazon site, I am seeing books for sale that are in the public domain (found on Gutenberg, ManyBooks, etc).

Is this legal? Should I quit my day job and start an 'e-publishing' house for pd books?
what ? unscrupulous publishers ???? making an easy dollar off the unsuspecting public ??? shocking !!!
you let me know if you open that e-publishing house, maybe i'll buy stocks.

back to my own topic (:rolleyes:), the present day István Farkas has very kindly replied to my mail to tell me that no, not only is he not the Farkas in question nor even a member of his family, but in fact he had never heard of him until i wrote ("Zelda Pinwheel : reuniting hungarian translators with their long lost, probably dead homonyms, since 2008"... that's my new tagline, yo). he does not personally have any idea when Farkas One died, however he did give me the email address of the Press, PR and Marketing Manager for the hungarian publisher who published the book, as well as the email address of the copyright agency. I have now written to both of these.

let me tell you, if it turns out this work is in the public domain, i will upload the ebook, and every last one of ye better read it.

I have a different question about copyright/public domain. This may have been answered in another thread, if so..I'm sorry.

Looking through Kindle books on the Amazon site, I am seeing books for sale that are in the public domain (found on Gutenberg, ManyBooks, etc).

Is this legal? Should I quit my day job and start an 'e-publishing' house for pd books?

Certainly it's legal - have you never seen a work by William Shakespeare or Charles Dickens in a bookstore?

You can do anything you wish with a work that's in the public domain, including publishing it, selling it, etc.

back to my own topic (:rolleyes:), the present day István Farkas has very kindly replied to my mail to tell me that no, not only is he not the Farkas in question nor even a member of his family, but in fact he had never heard of him until i wrote ("Zelda Pinwheel : reuniting hungarian translators with their long lost, probably dead homonyms, since 2008"... that's my new tagline, yo). he does not personally have any idea when Farkas One died, however he did give me the email address of the Press, PR and Marketing Manager for the hungarian publisher who published the book, as well as the email address of the copyright agency. I have now written to both of these.


Fascinating! Please do keep us informed!

Is this legal? Should I quit my day job and start an 'e-publishing' house for pd books?Yup, it's absolutely legal. Once works are in the public domain, anyone can legally use them for any purpose, including commercial ones.

However, if you'll look next time you're in the bookstore, those PD books are usually priced a good deal lower than more recent stuff. The exceptions there will be ones which include a lot of literary supporting material (footnotes, explanations, commentary, etc.), in those cases the extra price covers that material.

If you want to start your own e-publishing house for PD books go right ahead. :nice:

Duh..never thought about Shakespeare or Dickens being public domain. I guess it really opened my eyes being able to compare free (donation-supported) websites vs. for-profit booksellers for books. When only pbooks were available the choices were buy it or borrow it.

I have conflicting feelings about this subject and the long-term effects of buying public domain books from a bookseller.

I do agree that special editions or ebooks that took extra effort on the publishers part require payment.

Thanks for turning on the light bulb for me..
Also, I have no plans on quitting the day job anytime soon.. :)

let me tell you, if it turns out this work is in the public domain, i will upload the ebook, and every last one of ye better read it.


Yes'm ma'am. After I read it, will you take your curse off me?? ;)

I have conflicting feelings about this subject and the long-term effects of buying public domain books from a bookseller.Theoretically, all they're charging for is their cost to print, bind, and deliver the book to the store. :shrug:

As for the long-term effects ... this has been going on for decades -- I think we've seen any long-term effects we're likely to. :wink:

I'm more concerned with the long-term effect of ebooks on bookstores, myself. :rolleyes:

Yes'm ma'am. After I read it, will you take your curse off me?? ;)

oh, i won't curse anyone unless i actually get permission (or some concrete evidence that it's in the pd) to upload the book (don't hold your breath). so no worries there. besides, some notable exceptions* aside, "empty threats" would probably be more my style. :rolleyes:


*whole different sack of knots (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=175454&postcount=35). but i might take my curse off you someday. we'll see.

I've long regarded all threats as empty: I figure if they were going to really do it, they wouldn't mouth about it, they'd just carry them out. It's the approach I follow anyway, and why I always make a point of making my own threats patently ludicrous.

For instance when I was working a couple of summers at a youth camp during college (11~13 year olds), I'd threaten to glue their cheeks together, wait a moment for them to draw the obvious conclusion, then inform them that I didn't mean those cheeks. Then I'd follow up with: "in front."

They never took it seriously, of course, but it usually diverted them from whatever they were doing that I wanted them to stop, and that was the whole point. :D

Easy Zelda and Nat. Just teasing off of one of Zelda's posts...

curse you, ralph sir edward ! and all the rest of ye ! my reading list was already probably too long to reasonably fit inside one lifetime, and now look what you've done.

i really think i will have to quit my job, and do nothing else, but read. (oh, the torture :rolleyes:)

on that note, i'm going to bed (to read...) now.

I'm adding "a whole different sack of knots" to my list of colloquialisms. :D

I'm adding "a whole different sack of knots" to my list of colloquialisms. :D

i am honoured to enrich your collection. i probably have a few more lying around somewhere, if you're interested. :wink: for instance, in the same circumstances, i could have said "it's another pair of sleeves." i love colloquialisms too. :smiley:

i'm still going to keep the glue far away from you, just in case. although there is something you have to admire about a threat that is "patently ludicrous." maybe we could start a list of those as well.

i am honoured to enrich your collection. i probably have a few more lying around somewhere, if you're interested. :wink: for instance, in the same circumstances, i could have said "it's another pair of sleeves." i love colloquialisms too. :smiley:I shall unabashedly steal that one too -- that's how I get all my best material you know.

Most of mine have a decided "country" flavor, mostly "American" Southern and Texan, so they tend to be a bit earthy.

Here's one of my favorites, it's properly applied to folks who are perceived as not doing the job they should be doing:

"They're just standin' around with their teeth in their mouth."

I've copied these posts to a new thread in the Lounge entitled "Colloquiallisms [threatens to be Unutterably Silly] (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23374)" -- let's continue this discussion there, so we don't hijack yet another thread. :D

We now return the rest of you to your previous discussion of copyright questions.

since i'm sure all of you have been refreshing this thread impatiently (and in vain) every 5 minutes for the past 2 weeks, here's the latest news, still hot from the presses :

i've just received a mail from the person i contacted at Corvina Press letting me know that she is still waiting for a reply from her colleague, and will let me know as soon as she has some information.

there may yet be hope...

i have received yet another reply in the saga of my quest to determine the copyright status of the book by Karinthy :

Dear Ms. K,

the name "István Farkas" is rather common in Hungary. In order to find the correct one in our database, we would need some more personal data (like date of birth, pseudonyms, etc.), or otherwise unfortunately we cannot help you in your query.

Best Regards,


Péter Tóth
--
Dr. Péter Benjamin TÓTH
legal counsel
Society Artisjus Hungarian Bureau
for the Protection of Authors' Rights
H-1016 Budapest, Mészáros u. 15-17.
HUNGARY
Tel: (+36-1) 488 2636
Fax: (+36-1) 212 1544
web: www.artisjus.hu
e-mail: ptoth@artisjus.com

and my reply :
Dear Péter Toth,

I thank you for your kind reply. Unfortunately, the information you request from me is exactly the information I was hoping to obtain from you, so it seems we are at an impass. I don't know anything about this István Farkas except that he translated Frigyes Karinthy's novel "Please, Sir !" into english, and I would like to know whether this book is in the public domain or not (which depends on the date of death of the translator).

If any information about this particular book comes to your attention, I would be very grateful if you could communicate it to me.

Best regards, and thank you again for your time,

A K
it would seem my quest has arrived at its profoundly frustrating end, and no doubt legally, since the doubt remains complete, i should abstain from creating an ebook and uploading it here. after all, better that a brilliant work / author should fall into complete obscurity, within a century of their death, than to risk infringing the highly dubious but nonetheles possible but absolutely unverifiable copyright of the translation. right ? :angry:

again, i say that if ever there were an argumant in favor of reforming copyright / orphan works laws, this case is it.

...it would seem my quest has arrived at its profoundly frustrating end, and no doubt legally, since the doubt remains complete, i should abstain from creating an ebook and uploading it here. ...

:computer:

The Hungarian Electronic Library page for 'Please Sir!' at:
http://mek.oszk.hu/00700/00770/index.phtml
has an 'Informacio' button that provides an Email link for more information and help - just wondering if it might be worth dropping them a line.

(I may be out of date -apologies if you've already tried.)

thanks Sparrow, that's very nice of you, but to be honest i'm fed up with the whole thing. i already have contacted a random homonym of the translator, the publisher, and the Hungarian copyright agency, and none of them has been able to help me.

given that the book in question is *definitely* in the public domain (Karinthy died in 1938), and the translation is quite *probably* in the public domain (since it was published in 1925), and even if it's not no-one knows anything about this translator, how to find him, whether or not he's alive, or when he died, AND that the text is actually already freely available online (though not in ebook form), but that nonetheless i can't compile it into ebook form and upload it here (with absolutely no commercial motivation), this whole mess seems completely absurd, worthy of a Kafka story, and leaves me feeling incredibly irritated at the ridiculous state of copyright law. and i beleive i *will* make an ebook of the text to read offline, for my own personal use, even though i cannot share it here.

i should mention, for the record, that everyone i corresponded with in Hungary has been unfailingly kind and helpful (to the best of their abilities, anyway).

Yes, resolving copyright issues would give Sisyphus nightmares. :(

I've taken the liberty of emailing the Hungarian Electronic Library to see if they can clarify the situation.

I'll pass on what I hear back (if I hear back)).

thank you so much Sparrow ! i probably should have done that myself, but i am feeling very cranky and discouraged today and couldn't dredge up the motivation. i sincerely appreciate your efforts. have some karma for that and a hug too.

well well well, it looks like this story has not quite come to an end after all, since today i received another mail from Corvina :

Dear A.,

Thank you for your inquiry re. Frigyes Karinthy’s novel, Please, Sir!
We have not responded earlier because Corvina is
Planning to republish the work, but has not yet come to a final
decision. It should be made soon, at which time I will
get back to you without delay.

All best,
Judith Szollosy
Senior Editor
Corvina


naturally i leapt immediately into the breach, here is my reply :

Dear Judith,
I sincerely appreciate your communication. Please do keep me informed. May I ask most particularly, whether you have plans to publish a digital edition (e-book) of this work ? Allow me to most enthusiastically encourage you to do so ; I for one would love to have all of Karinthy's works in digital format (thus indeed my original inquiry, concerning the copyright status of the translation of Please, Sir, which is available online in digital format but not as an ebook which can be read on a dedicated device such as the Bookeen Cybook Gen3 or Sony Reader for example), and I sincerely hope that you will make these available in the very near future. I would be very interested to know your plans on this subject.

If you are interested in digital publishing, may I also invite you to take a look at the site http://www.mobileread.com, where you can get a lot of information about the current state of digital publishing, dedicated devices, and dialogue with a very friendly, knowledgeable and passionate community on every aspect of these questions, including the hoped-for evolution of the industry and emerging best practices.

Thank you again for your kind replies,
Best wishes,
A K

further updates as events warrant, of course...

Karinthy's books are available FREE in electronic format in Hungary.
http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/human/szepirod/magyar/karinthy/

You should not worry about the copyright, except maybe for the translation.

A translation (even of a work that's in the public domain) has its own copyright - ie the translation doesn't enter the public domain until 70/50 years after the death of the translator.

Not necessarily.
It depends on what entity owns the IP of the translation just like it depends on who owns the IP of the original work.

Example: I used to work for a game company and wrote under contract. The IP is copyright by the company I worked for and thus follows different laws (95 years from original publication date if after a certain date, IIRC). So even if I were to die tomorrow a work I wrote 2 years ago would not necessarily be public domain in 2084 and even if I lived until 2083 (fat chance ;) ) the work would probably go PD in 2101 IF I have the copyright/IP stuff correct as it would follow the corporate date of creation, and nothing to do with my life.

Just saying. Copyright and IP are complex issues and thus the province of lawyers (who have insurance) rather than a mere mortal like myself.

Karinthy's books are available FREE in electronic format in Hungary.
http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/human/szepirod/magyar/karinthy/

You should not worry about the copyright, except maybe for the translation.

thank you, BlackVoid, but the original question was in fact about the translation, since i (alas) cannot read hungarian.