And the prose. Oh, dear goodness, the prose, with dialog that read like it was graven in stone tablets, brought down off a mountain by a prophet, and intended to be spoken IN ALL CAPS.

If you want to push theories using fiction as a medium, it helps if you can write good fiction. From where I sit, Rand couldn't.
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Dennis

I never gotten into her. But I do wish I could share how this part of your post registered in my head. While I'm sure you were sincere with your post, the voice that took over the reading almost seems like a Mel Brooks character reading it.

Thank god I'm not into drugs, this would have been too much on my system.

I will say this for Atlas Shrugged, it was the book that finally turned me off to Ayn Rand. :D


I tried to read it a couple of times.

In the end I just settled for listening to a few Rush albums instead. ;)

I tried to read it a couple of times.

In the end I just settled for listening to a few Rush albums instead. ;)

Sounds like a plan. Do you mind if I listen to a couple of Falco singles on repeat instead though?

...
And the prose. Oh, dear goodness, the prose, with dialog that read like it was graven in stone tablets, brought down off a mountain by a prophet, and intended to be spoken IN ALL CAPS....

"This is John Galt speaking"...or should that be "THIS IS JOHN GALT SPEAKING"?

The thing is, I thought it was an okay book as a story, but it sometimes felt so crammed with philosophising shoved into any possible nook and cranny that it felt like sitting on an overstuffed chair (I should concede, though, that Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance might feel like this to some people too, though I loved it)

I hear that Rand's The Fountainhead is better though.

On another tack, I know some people dislike Moby Dick, and I've heard it expressed that this was possibly because they had to slog through it at school. Down this way, we didn't get a lot of Am.Lit. (mostly Eng.Lit., with increasing amounts of Aus.Lit. gradually being added), so the White Whale wasn't on the syllabus. I read it a couple of years ago, and quite enjoyed it - far more approachable than I expected. It was the kind of book that made me want to attend a study group on it, just for a couple of weeks to extract the a decent amount of filling from its rich, creamy centre.

On the other hand, my last attempt at Crime & Punishment (admittedly over twenty years ago, while in my mid-to-late teens)...well, it wasn't a success. It's a "Worst" that deserves a review on my part though (since I didn't come close to completing it, or even starting it properly). I could say the same about ~gasp~ The Silmarillion.

Cheers,
Marc

"This is John Galt speaking"...or should that be "THIS IS JOHN GALT SPEAKING"?
Pretty much.

The thing is, I thought it was an okay book as a story, but it sometimes felt so crammed with philosophising shoved into any possible nook and cranny that it felt like sitting on an overstuffed chair (I should concede, though, that Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance might feel like this to some people too, though I loved it)

I hear that Rand's The Fountainhead is better though.
I liked Zen, too.

And the overstuffed chair analogy is apt, save that not only was the chair overstuffed, it was lumpy, uncomfortable, and you best not peer too closely at what was used for stuffing.

On another tack, I know some people dislike Moby Dick, and I've heard it expressed that this was possibly because they had to slog through it at school. Down this way, we didn't get a lot of Am.Lit. (mostly Eng.Lit., with increasing amounts of Aus.Lit. gradually being added), so the White Whale wasn't on the syllabus. I read it a couple of years ago, and quite enjoyed it - far more approachable than I expected. It was the kind of book that made me want to attend a study group on it, just for a couple of weeks to extract the a decent amount of filling from its rich, creamy centre.
I haven't attempted Moby Dick in many years, since it was part of the syllabus here. Being force fed something isn't a good way to develop a taste for it.

On the other hand, my last attempt at Crime & Punishment (admittedly over twenty years ago, while in my mid-to-late teens)...well, it wasn't a success. It's a "Worst" that deserves a review on my part though (since I didn't come close to completing it, or even starting it properly). I could say the same about ~gasp~ The Silmarillion.
I happen to love the Silmarillion, but I understand why it isn't to everyone's tastes. People coming to it expecting a continuous narrative with a consistent set of characters will be disappointed.

I tell new readers to imagine they are in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell, listening to the lore masters recount tales of the Elder days, The stories will vary in style and tone, depending upon the tale and the teller.

I was particularly taken with Tolkien's version of the creation myth, with Iluvatar as a composer, propounding theses of music, and the Valar and Maiar as a heavenly orchestra, taking the themes and expressing them, each according to its own nature and ability. The music brings forth a vision os Arda, the world, which so entrances some of the Valar they beg Iluvatar to make it real so they might dwell there. He does, and things begin.
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Dennis

I recently downloaded Cory Doctorow's collection Overclocked, and damn, some of the stories in it are bad. It started out decently with Printcrime, nice message, interesting twist at the end. Then came When Sysadmins Ruled The Earth. That is quite possibly the worst story I have ever read. The plot is threadbare, the characters are unlikable, and the modern-day net jargon and slang is laughable. It's like he tried to cram every acronym, every technology, anything he had ever heard about the net into one short story. I don't think I've rolled my eyes more times while reading any other story.
It reads somewhat better if you are a SysAdmin. The jargon is accurate enough, and I know people like the ones in the story.
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Dennis
Who is peeved that his ISP has dropped newsgroup services, and he has to find another place to read alt.sysadmin.recovery

:smack: I don't think you and I will be trading book choices any time soon!

I will say this for Atlas Shrugged, it was the book that finally turned me off to Ayn Rand. :D

Jim

Sounds like a good plan to me. Some people think that reading a book is about reading best sellers. Others think it's about great literature. Personally I just want a story that I think is entertaining and well told. Best seller & great literature be damned if I don't care for it.

And yes I know that I have weird tastes, but they're mine and I'm the one who is paying for my entertainment.

Bye y'all! :book2:

Sounds like a good plan to me. Some people think that reading a book is about reading best sellers. Others think it's about great literature. Personally I just want a story that I think is entertaining and well told. Best seller & great literature be damned if I don't care for it.

And yes I know that I have weird tastes, but they're mine and I'm the one who is paying for my entertainment.

Bye y'all! :book2:

There ARE people that are all about the best sellers and I think they're literary snobs and quite close minded.

I'm quite picky in my selections of books. I don't pick it by the pitchman, but about the story and if possible, previous work. In the past, I've struggled to find something that intrigued me, but only recently picked up reading outside of the genre' I frequented (sci-fi, Fiction,humor) is when I things that entertained and expanded my overall view (Biographies, True Crime, Recent Events, political) sometimes a friend's taste doesn't mesh with yours. Don't take it as a personal insult, but acknowledge they have different tastes than yours.

The only book that I can say I truly disliked was "Seasons of Plenty" by Colin Greenland.
It still has an undigested bookmark in it for one of those evenings where jabbing a hot poker in my eye can't do the trick.

"Boat of a Million Years" by Poul Anderson also lies untouched. And I love most of his work too.

I liked Battlefield Earth. A bit too predictable though.

And as for HP Lovecraft. His stories pale by our standards of today, but imagine how the readers of the day would have reacted.

The only book that I can say I truly disliked was "Seasons of Plenty" by Colin Greenland.
It still has an undigested bookmark in it for one of those evenings where jabbing a hot poker in my eye can't do the trick.

Nicely phrased. :)

Cheers,
Marc

"Boat of a Million Years" by Poul Anderson also lies untouched. And I love most of his work too.
While I don't consider it the best of Poul's work, it's worth a read. He does a decent take on the problems of immortals in a mortal society, with more or less the same solution Heinlein used - leave the Earth and explore the stars.

And as for HP Lovecraft. His stories pale by our standards of today, but imagine how the readers of the day would have reacted.
Lovecraft also encouraged other writers to write tales set in his universe, and carried on a lively correspondence with many of them.
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Dennis

Pretty much any book I had to read in high school (Scarlett Letter, Red Badge of Courage etc.) I think by subjecting students to some of these books is why we have so many alliterates out there.

Lovecraft also encouraged other writers to write tales set in his universe, and carried on a lively correspondence with many of them.

Lovecraft's work is great just to see how horror writing got it's start. There's only a handful of his stories I enjoy purely for the story and characters. The rest though serve as these little tiny time-machines, to take you back to a different style of writing and plot. It's great to see all the differences in tone and style, and the choice in words to convey the story. I love too how innocent his horrors are in todays context, and to think what people of his era may have thought if they could read the horror stories of today. People used to a climax where Lovecraft reveals "but in fact the man was DEAD!", would whither reading something like King where he takes an entire chapter to describe how someones bones crack and splinter as they are forcibly pulled through a 3 inch slot.

Lovecraft's work is great just to see how horror writing got it's start. There's only a handful of his stories I enjoy purely for the story and characters. The rest though serve as these little tiny time-machines, to take you back to a different style of writing and plot. It's great to see all the differences in tone and style, and the choice in words to convey the story. I love too how innocent his horrors are in todays context, and to think what people of his era may have thought if they could read the horror stories of today. People used to a climax where Lovecraft reveals "but in fact the man was DEAD!", would whither reading something like King where he takes an entire chapter to describe how someones bones crack and splinter as they are forcibly pulled through a 3 inch slot.
Yes, it's tame stuff by modern standards. But I think current writers might take a lesson or two. The most effective horror is the stuff that happens in our own heads. I think modern writers in several genres err by showing their hand too soon.

For example, one of my favorite grade B SF films is an oldie from the 50's called "Them". The creatures are giant mutated ants, the results of nuclear tests, but we never even see them for half of the film. We just see the destruction they cause, with scenes like the little girl in catatonic shock after the ants have destroyed the family farm and killed her parents. She sets bolt upright, wide eyed, on her stretcher as the ant's high pitched warbling noises swell in the background, then sinks slowly back into catatonia as the sound fades. The "My God, what's happening here?" anticipation makes the film.

It's been a while, but as I recall, most of Lovecraft's stuff happens off stage. You know something terrible is occurring, but you don't know what, and your mind fills in the blanks. I contrast unfavorably that with the modern "splatterpunk" school of horror, which wants to get right to the vivid blood and gore.

There's a difference between horror and nausea, and I think some folks have lost sight of it.

Incidentally, a chap named Daniel Saroff has nice Mobipocket versions of complete H.P. Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith collections posted on Memoware. (http://www.memoware.com/?screen=search_results&DirectSearch=Y&p=contributor_id^!42487~!) If I can track him down, I'm going to invite him to repost them here.
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Dennis

:coffeebreak:Hi Everyone! These are my opinions, so please love me for my differences as well as my sames. Here goes:


4. Battlefield Earth 1 & 2 - For all of the reasons stated by others, and also because it is the only set of books I ever read that made me angry twice: First for wasting so much time reading the first book, and then secondly, for making me angry again by fooling myself that surely the second book must be better. It wasn't. But at least I learned that it's OK not to finish a book.

You may have to explain this entry. Battlefield Earth 2? There is no such animal that I am aware of and no listing on Fantastic Fiction or any other book listings that I could find. Perhaps you have this confused with another series of two books? If not, I'd love to know the title of the second book.

John Travolta has express interest in a second movie but I've never heard of a sequel to this book.

Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey is a book I found dreadful. I started reading it not long ago and found that the plot just sat there and stagnated at best. The characters were dull and had no life of their own. All it was was a bunch of wealthy people playing silly party type parlor games. I got into it about 12-14 chapters and had to stop for I was dreading each new word.

4. Battlefield Earth 1 & 2 - For all of the reasons stated by others, and also because it is the only set of books I ever read that made me angry twice: First for wasting so much time reading the first book, and then secondly, for making me angry again by fooling myself that surely the second book must be better. It wasn't. But at least I learned that it's OK not to finish a book.
You may have to explain this entry. Battlefield Earth 2? There is no such animal that I am aware of and no listing on Fantastic Fiction or any other book listings that I could find. Perhaps you have this confused with another series of two books? If not, I'd love to know the title of the second book.
The original Battlefield: Earth was a fairly thick volume. It's possible DixiGal has a two book re-package I'm not aware of.

The other possibility is that she's conflating it with the ten volume "Mission: Earth" series.

John Travolta has express interest in a second movie but I've never heard of a sequel to this book.
John Travolta will have lots of luck getting financing to make a sequel. The original was a notable bomb that was largely laughed out of the theaters, and badly damaged Travolta's career. Prior to it, he was a bankable star. Afterward, producers thought hard before casting him, and his output has been uneven at best.
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Dennis

Battlefield Earth was horrible and way too long. It should have ended 1/2 way into it and yet it kept going on and on and on.

An ex-GF had me read the Outlander by Diana Gabaldon. It was horribly written romance with some time travel back in time to Scotland. It was dreadful and unless you like really bad romance novels, stay away.

Lovecraft's work is great just to see how horror writing got it's start. There's only a handful of his stories I enjoy purely for the story and characters. The rest though serve as these little tiny time-machines, to take you back to a different style of writing and plot. It's great to see all the differences in tone and style, and the choice in words to convey the story. I love too how innocent his horrors are in todays context, and to think what people of his era may have thought if they could read the horror stories of today. People used to a climax where Lovecraft reveals "but in fact the man was DEAD!", would whither reading something like King where he takes an entire chapter to describe how someones bones crack and splinter as they are forcibly pulled through a 3 inch slot.


Oh... Horror should be an art. Lovecraft's stories and today's horror stories are like comparing erotica and porn. Sure porn is more explicit, but erotica can be so much more engaging, sensual.

There's nothing that we fear more than the unknown. The invisible. What we can't control. Loevcraft played more with that ideia. He hightens our senses to the point that "revealing a DEAD" can be a great climax, compared to the disgusting and numbing gore.

The book was "Dahlgren." I know I can not get those painfully wasted hours I spent reading that "book" back again ... but oh, how I wish I could.
OTOH, I read and liked Dhalgren. I viewed it as an exploration of what happened when the usual constraints of civilization are removed. One character comments that in that situation, you become "...what you are." In his case, it was homosexuality no longer repressed, with a leather fetish tossed in.

There are also strong suggestions that the protagonist isn't sane, and not a reliable witness.
______
Dennis

The thing is .... a few years later, I picked up a book, I "think" it was called, "Titan" or something like that. Read it ... loved it ... turns out it was by the same author.
Samuel R. Delany. Brilliant (if uneven) writer, and a nice guy.

The book you're thinking of was _Triton_, set on the moon of Saturn with that name. Technology has reached the point where you can change sex on an outpatient basis, and the protagonist does so in response to a failed love affair. I'd love to see a separate collection of the Notes Towards the Modular Calculus scattered through the book.

_Titan_ was a novel by John Varley, and part of a series including _Demon_ and _Wizard_. The original hardcover publication was illustrated, and I knew the illustrator and several of the folks who served as models.
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Dennis

ah, i've found one of the two others of my worst books - it's called vampire beat and the author is vincent courtney. it's poorly written, but that's not the problem... i like illogical things that are supposed to be illogical, but in this book it's so badly thought out that even thinking about reading it again makes me want to smash my head into a wall over and over and over...

Looking back over the 50 years I have been reading, I don't remember any bad books. I remember some I did not like, but I can't call them bad for that. This subject is too subjective, there is no yardstick by which to measure. Some of the books listed here are among my favorites. Others, I didn't like at all. Books are like wives (or husbands), no one can say which is good and bad except the one reading (living with) it. If it works for you, great. If not, great, there are many books from which we may choose. Besides, the worst book I ever read was much better than the best business meeting I had to attend.

Van

Looking back over the 50 years I have been reading, I don't remember any bad books. I remember some I did not like, but I can't call them bad for that. This subject is too subjective, there is no yardstick by which to measure.

Well, the thread is about the worst books you've read, so the yardstick would be your own subjective taste.

.... Besides, the worst book I ever read was much better than the best business meeting I had to attend.

Exactly! We all have worst books. :)

..... there are many books from which we may choose. Besides, the worst book I ever read was much better than the best business meeting I had to attend.

Van
How timely. I just spoke to a friend of mine who was in a meeting bad enough he wondered if suicide was a viable option to get the meeting to end.

He was seriously eyeing the letter opener on a desk.

I'm both notorious and admired in my business circles for being able to end a meeting with tact. "Tact" was once defined as the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a manner that they look forward to the trip.

Most meetings I'm in these days use GoToMeeting or WebEx. It's so nice to be able to say in a deep voice, dripping with authority, "I think we've covered all the points on the agenda today. Thanks for attending, I'm ending the meeting now." Then click the red X. "End meeting for all?". Yes.

Most meetings I'm in these days use GoToMeeting or WebEx. It's so nice to be able to say in a deep voice, dripping with authority, "I think we've covered all the points on the agenda today. Thanks for attending, I'm ending the meeting now." Then click the red X. "End meeting for all?". Yes.

i wish i could do that in real life sometimes.

i wish i could do that in real life sometimes.

You can! One technique I use is to simply close your notebook (paper or laptop!), smile, stretch, and stand up. People have a tendency to look for direction, to respond to peer pressure, to "follow the leader". So be the leader.

A few of the people still talking will look surprised or annoyed when 5 other people automatically follow my lead and stand up, too. But they quickly fall into line as I reach out to shake their hands, or I hold the door open politely, forcing people to walk through it.

quite the puppetmaster, aren't you ? ;)

Even if you don't like Harry Potter, I really don't think you can put one of the best selling books in all of history on the bottom of the totem pole.
I thought this was exactly the kind of place where you could do that? Wasn't that the point of the thread?

Oh yes. I'm diabolic, manipulative, devious... you haven't realized that yet?

You need to get yourself powdered coyote (...)

Recipe?

You can! One technique I use is to simply close your notebook (paper or laptop!), smile, stretch, and stand up. People have a tendency to look for direction, to respond to peer pressure, to "follow the leader". So be the leader.

A few of the people still talking will look surprised or annoyed when 5 other people automatically follow my lead and stand up, too. But they quickly fall into line as I reach out to shake their hands, or I hold the door open politely, forcing people to walk through it.
If you are calling the meeting, another useful technique is to hold it standing up. It's astonishing how quickly meetings can progress in such conditions... :p
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Dennis

I thought this was exactly the kind of place where you could do that? Wasn't that the point of the thread?
I don't care where you place a book. I'd just like a coherent reason why.
______
Dennis

I guess you disagree with the millions of readers around the world who love the books. This isn't the place for a Harry Potter commentary (there's probably already a thread) but I disagree. Even if you don't like Harry Potter, I really don't think you can put one of the best selling books in all of history on the bottom of the totem pole.

The bestselling newspapers are tabloids which are trash: Quantity != quality.

I've read all of the Potter books and most were enjoyable (as long as you didn't think about them too much) but they certainly weren't great and the final book was horrendous. The problem for me was simply that Harry Potter himself is a complete dolt and the final book demonstrated that to such an extend that I actually skipped larger parts.

Apart from that, the series belongs to the Things Just Work Out In The End category of books and I'm really tired of this kind of books. Other examples are (in no particular order):

Honor Harrington Series
Lt. Leary Series
Lord of the Isles
The Shannara Books

In fact, most fantasy books are either of that category or they have the same general plot line, even for different series (Robin Hobb, David Drake and David Weber are prime examples of this).

Usually when I don't care for a book, I don't think of it as a bad book, but just that it wasn't a book for me. Sometimes it's just that the writing is dense or harder to follow and I'm in the mood for an easy read.
However here's my list of bad books.

Urshurak by the Brothers Hildebrandt
(they did the Tolkien calenders in the 70s)

Mercedes Lackey - the novels about the gay mages
(the gay aspect didn't bother me. It was just badly written.)

The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks.
I read this when it was first published and thought it was OK. I read tried to re-read it 10 years ago and found it so clumsily written that I had a hard time getting through it. His writing does improve in later books. In Brooks defense, he was only a teenager when he wrote it and at least he was ripping off a master unlike some whose books are basically fleshed out Dungeons and Dragons campaigns.

I like Lovecraft for his stories, but the man could not write dialog if his life depended on it.

Robert Jordan - I liked the first few books but he should have wrapped up the plot before we ran out of interesting things to learn about his world.
Writer's should take a hint from the Lord of the Rings. You don't need to tell the reader everything you know about your created world and its characters.

.... Besides, the worst book I ever read was much better than the best business meeting I had to attend.
For a humorous look at meetings and corporate life, try reading Connie Willis's Bellwether
.
From the book:
"All right, fellow workers," Management said. "Do you have your five objectives? Flip, would you collect them?"
Elaine looked stricken. Gina snatched the list from her and wrote rapidly:
1. Optimize potential.
2. Facilitate empowerment.
3. Implement visioning.
4. Strategize priorities.
5. Augment core structures.
"How did you do that?" I said admiringly.
"Those are the five things I always write down," she said and handed the list to Flip as she slouched past.

The worst book I ever read was, without a doubt, Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce! Set text at school and utterly impenetrable!!

Biggest disappointment was the Soldier Son trilogy by Robin Hobb. I'd enjoyed her Assassin series so much I suppose I'd already made my mind up it was going to be more of the same, but the main charachter was so unlikeable I was shocked!

Best non-fiction was Alison Wier's biography of Eleanor of Aquitaine - what a woman!!

I thought this was exactly the kind of place where you could do that? Wasn't that the point of the thread?

You're right, what I should have said was, "There's no way I could agree with anyone putting them on the bottom of the pile."

But yes, I've given up defending the Harry Potter series. I'll just keep enjoying them and waiting to say "I told you so" when the schools start studying them in ten years.

Writer's should take a hint from the Lord of the Rings. You don't need to tell the reader everything you know about your created world and its characters.


Not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying that J.R.R. Tolkien put too much detail in it, and that the hint is that we should not follow his example? Because LOTR was very detailed, and then we had all of the books about this universe.

Not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying that J.R.R. Tolkien put too much detail in it, and that the hint is that we should not follow his example? Because LOTR was very detailed, and then we had all of the books about this universe.
I'd say the reverse.

I'm one of the folks who spent more time in the Appendices of LoTR looking for back story that wasn't mentioned in the books, and pounced gleefully on the Silmarillion to learn more about the First Age, and how the story in LoTR came to be.
______
Dennis

I'd say the reverse.

I'm one of the folks who spent more time in the Appendices of LoTR looking for back story that wasn't mentioned in the books, and pounced gleefully on the Silmarillion to learn more about the First Age, and how the story in LoTR came to be.
______
Dennis

Ok, now I understand. I love the lore, but yes, it can be a bit tedious at times.

The worst book I ever read was, without a doubt, Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce! Set text at school and utterly impenetrable!!

That was my favorite book in high school. Sorry it felt so rough being shoved down your throat. I hate that.

That was my favorite book in high school. Sorry it felt so rough being shoved down your throat. I hate that.

I only just read it for the first time last month. Ulysses too is only one, long, French novel away from being read.

Cheers,
Marc

I only just read it for the first time last month. Ulysses too is only one, long, French novel away from being read.

Cheers,
Marc

and speaking of that intermediary novel, are those cakes burnt yet ? you better check the time...

and speaking of that intermediary novel, are those cakes burnt yet ? you better check the time...

S**t!...

Cheers,
Marc (Oh, look, I forgot to turn the oven on...)

I’m only listing books have actually read all the way through to the end. Listed in alphabetical order.

1. I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou: Affectation and self-indulgence.

2. Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich: This is what happens when journalist knows she right from the beginning and crows about how she successfully set herself up to fail after she is done.

3. Forever Will You Suffer by Gary Frank: Too many supernatural ingredients and you can almost hear the book begging, “Please, please, please make me into a movie.”

4. The Wolves of Culla by Stephen King: This is what happens when an author gets hit over the head with the retarded stick and is allowed to publish the results.

5. The Wyrm by Stephen Laws: A modern use of deus ex machina.

6. Manitou Blood by Graham Masterton: A stunning example of sequel suckage.

7. Queen of the Damned by Ann Rice: I so sick of super sexy vampires.

8. Harry Potter and Order of the Phoenix by J.K. Rowling: The Emperor has no clothes: Dull, dull, dull.

9. Color Purple by Alice Walker: College professors in the early ‘80s discovered substitutes for dead white men, but early adapters of new literature can be just as wonky as new technology.

10. Sky Burial by Xinran Xue: Give Anne-Sophie Mutter an eensey weensey violin for the score playing in your head while you read.

I’m only listing books have actually read all the way through to the end. Listed in alphabetical order.

4. The Wolves of Culla by Stephen King: This is what happens when an author gets hit over the head with the retarded stick and is allowed to publish the results.

7. Queen of the Damned by Ann Rice: I so sick of super sexy vampires.

8. Harry Potter and Order of the Phoenix by J.K. Rowling: The Emperor has no clothes: Dull, dull, dull.

:rolleyes: I enjoyed all three very much! :rolleyes:

I'd say the reverse.

I'm one of the folks who spent more time in the Appendices of LoTR looking for back story that wasn't mentioned in the books, and pounced gleefully on the Silmarillion to learn more about the First Age, and how the story in LoTR came to be.
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Dennis
I read that. It was one of the most boring tedious plodding books I've ever read.

I read that. It was one of the most boring tedious plodding books I've ever read.

The Simarillion is deliberately written in emulation of the style of "heroic epics" and if you've never encountered that particular literary genre then it's going to appear pretty wierd. For people who've read epics, whether the "Homeric" ones or later Germanic or English ones, it's a familiar writing style.

Eg compare it to the style of the English translation of the 3rd century BC epic "The Argonautica" (the story of Jason and the Argonauts) that I posted a few days ago, and you'll find the style of that to be very like that of the Silmarillion.

I had understood the Simarillion to be Tolkein's own work product, a work to provide a mythology and framework for the LOTR stories and characters, much as the Bible (The Old Testament) does for Judaism... one doesn't typically read the Bible for a good narrative "story", but to get at an underlying philosophy or principle.

I actually liked the Simarillion better than LOTR. "The Two Towers" was a very boring story, but The Simarillion was a very detailed mythology.

That's precisely what it is, Taylor, yes. Remember that Tolkien was professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford, which is why the Silmarillion is written in very much the style of the epics that he'd spent his life studying.

The problem is that a lot of people read The Silmarillion expecting a novel like LOTR and are disappointed
When it's read on its own terms it can be enjoyable.

Yes, it's most certainly NOTHING like LOTR. The story of LOTR occupies about half a page in the Silmarillion. The S is the "big picture".

The most effective horror is the stuff that happens in our own heads. I think modern writers in several genres err by showing their hand too soon.
[/b]

I think movies are largely to blame. Horror writers are often guilty of putting the movie into the book. What works on the page doesn't always work in a movie and what works on a movie will not always work in a book. The most recent example I can think of was The Hollower by Mary Sangiovanni where there was a monster in the characters head, but she turned it too quickly into run away from the movie-type monster.

Lovecraft was never guilty of that kind of mistake. Of course, he lived in a different era.

The problem is that a lot of people read The Silmarillion expecting a novel like LOTR and are disappointed
When it's read on its own terms it can be enjoyable.
Anyone coming to the Silmarillion expecting a narrative with continuing characters telling a single story will be disappointed.

I tell folks to imagine they are in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell, listening to the loremasters recount tales of the Elder Days. The stories will vary in style and tone, varying with the tale and the teller.

Approach the Silmarillion for what is, and it can be wondrous.
______
Dennis

Additional trivia on the Silmarillion.

Christopher Tolkien invited a university student he'd met in Manitoba to come to Oxford and help him compile his father's fragmented works into the Silmarillion and that was Guy Gavriel Kay. GGK credit's that year for influencing him to become a writer which is a great thing... especially because the alternative appears to have been a lawyer. ;)

I enjoyed the Silmarillion as well but when I read it I had already read the LOTR five times so I was very interested in some of the references. It's definitely not for everyone.

I remember talking to someone that told me he had wanted to read the LOTR because he'd heard so many good things about it. He'd bought the first book and just couldn't get into it. I questioned him further and found out he'd bought the Silmarillion thinking it was the first book. :smack:

Additional trivia on the Silmarillion.

Christopher Tolkien invited a university student he'd met in Manitoba to come to Oxford and help him compile his father's fragmented works into the Silmarillion and that was Guy Gavriel Kay. GGK credit's that year for influencing him to become a writer which is a great thing... especially because the alternative appears to have been a lawyer. ;)
Thanks for mentioning him. Kay is one of my favorite fantasy writers. _The Fionnavar Tapestry_ is one of the few works in any genre that has made me cry, and _Tigana_ is one of my favorite fantasy novels.
_____
Dennis

_Tigana_ is one of my favorite fantasy novels.

Ditto.

...

4. The Wolves of Culla by Stephen King: This is what happens when an author gets hit over the head with the retarded stick and is allowed to publish the results.

The Wolves of the Calla and Wizard and Glass were, for me, the two books I enjoyed the least. I probably disliked Wizard and Glass more than Wolves because I had to reread it twice, as new books came out (I start the series again). For me, the strongest book of the series is The Gunslinger, followed by The Drawing of the Three. I reread the former several times, as with Wizard and Glass, but it was never a chore.

...
7. Queen of the Damned by Ann Rice: I so sick of super sexy vampires.

I loved the Vampire Chronicles up to and including Queen of the Damned. I found The Tale of the Body Thief to be a sequel-for-the-sake-of-sequel, and, though I think I read Memnoch, the Devil, I don't really remember anything about it. I've read nothing after that, and The Witching Hour was something I plodded through, so that was the end of Anne Rice for me.

8. Harry Potter and Order of the Phoenix by J.K. Rowling: The Emperor has no clothes: Dull, dull, dull.

Oddly, this is one I probably liked the most, in that I hated reading it (I dislike unremitting despair, and this book had it in spades, but I realise that doesn't preclude satisfaction in reading it). However, I've heard others have the same reaction as yourself. :)

9. Color Purple by Alice Walker: College professors in the early ‘80s discovered substitutes for dead white men, but early adapters of new literature can be just as wonky as new technology.
...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above, but I am disappointed. Not in you, of course, but rather the potential for this not to be a good read. The movie is a favourite of mine, and it's a book I've always been meaning to read. Still, if we disagree on books above, perhaps we might disagree on this as well, yeah. :)

I had understood the Simarillion to be Tolkein's own work product, a work to provide a mythology and framework for the LOTR stories and characters, much as the Bible (The Old Testament) does for Judaism... one doesn't typically read the Bible for a good narrative "story", but to get at an underlying philosophy or principle.
...

I get what you're saying (and Dennis, and HarryT), and it'll certainly serve me (since I have the book sitting in a pride-of-place spot on the bookshelves). Perhaps though, if one at first hasn't approached it in this manner, the restarting of it still begins with [starts reading]..."The Silmarillion....[thump....snoooooore]" in much the same way that the meal you had before becoming sick can put you off the ingredients for some time, even if they weren't to blame (and especially if they were).

However, since my last attempts were in my teens and early twenties, it's probably something I might have gotten over by now. :D I'll bring it over to the TBR again, as, with what you are all saying, and with an awareness that my tastes have significantly changed, particularly in the recent 18 months or so, I think I might be rewarded this time.

(I haven't read it through, so I would not have put it in my "Worst Books" list, and I daresay that the pleasure of its language would have put me off listing it, even if I had read it through)

Thanks for mentioning him. Kay is one of my favorite fantasy writers. _The Fionnavar Tapestry_ is one of the few works in any genre that has made me cry, and _Tigana_ is one of my favorite fantasy novels.

Yes! The Fionnavar Tapestry was...is, a favourite. It should probably be on my re-read pile, but I'm loathe to begin one at the moment.

It's been said before by others, but I really enjoy this "Worst Books" thread. It's interesting to see that some books, even though "great" in some particular sense, are some of the "worst" reads for people, especially when they don't coincide with your own, or even have been your "best" reads. I think I'd put The Sea, The Sea now as my number 1, most likely because high expectations were so far from being met.

Cheers,
Marc

Worst book for me is Twilight...I still can't believe it's popular enough to warrant a movie and a sequel. I found the dialogue boring, Bella an insult to women and Edward dull for an 100+yr old vampire. I have no interest in reading the rest in the series.

Also Wicked: The life and times of the wicked witch of the west. I wanted to like it, I really really wanted to like it...but there came a point where I just couldn't read another word.

The Secret - This book is so funny...in a very bad way. I managed one chapter before giving up.

What I like about Twilight and The Secret is the negative reviewers...they are a hilarious bunch, esspecially the ones for Twilight.

I loved to read - read everything I could get my hands on - until jr high literature through high school - absolutely sucked the life out of the books - Charlotte's Web, Tess de Urberville, Wuthering Heights, a couple of Jane Austin, Moby Dick - and I'm still traumatized. I didn't take a literature course in college because I simply couldn't fathom having classics inflicted upon me. The only book that I enjoyed in school was Alas Babylon.

I still have difficulty w/ classics - I studied Russian throughout college, so I am trying Crime and Punishment again but I just lose steam. I also have The Brothers Karamazov on my to be read shelf.

I did like Grapes of Wrath - but I read it after becoming a mother - same w/ Pearl S. Buck's, The Good Earth and they connect w/ me through me being a mother now and the suffering. I think I would enjoy Faulkner since I now live in the south and there's a definite culture here - very distinct (even w/ all us northerners moving here). But, I don't know if I can get through Fitzgerald since we had to read The Great Gatsby.

As far as candy books (my brain is worn out raising a bunch of kids and homeschooling), I made the mistake of buying a bunch of Darrell Bain books and found many of them to be preachy and some were just very unpleasant to read - Human by Choice, A Strange Valley, and The Disappearing Girls. I have 13 on my shelf - that taught me not to buy a bunch "site unseen". I don't know what I was thinking about.

I've decided that A Passage to India is one of the worst books ever written. How it can be called classic literature is a mystery we may never solve. It is just boring from the start with too many insipidly unlikeable characters. And the only character we might like gets killed/dies (depends on how you view her death).

I loved to read - read everything I could get my hands on - until jr high literature through high school - absolutely sucked the life out of the books - Charlotte's Web, Tess de Urberville, Wuthering Heights, a couple of Jane Austin, Moby Dick - and I'm still traumatized.

Was it the books, or the teachers?
Some of the books you mention are ones I'd consider great reads.

I was lucky to have some wonderful Eng Lit teachers - they really made the books fascinating, and I'll be forever grateful to them.

I did like Grapes of Wrath ...

:2thumbsup My all-time favourite US novel - heartbreaking!

i'm not good at lists. the second i'm asked to list anything (including : "name 2 articles of clothing you are currently wearing, you are allowed to look down") my mind instantly becomes a void so complete it's the next best thing to anti-matter.

but i'll comment on other people's lists, if i've read anything on them.

OK - this might be the oldest reply ever, but SURELY you can name Hugo and Lefty???

I've decided that A Passage to India is one of the worst books ever written. How it can be called classic literature is a mystery we may never solve. It is just boring from the start with too many insipidly unlikeable characters. And the only character we might like gets killed/dies (depends on how you view her death).


Mr. Wolf, at the time it was written, it probably had way more relevance. Women DID act like that. Men DID have those attitudes. The English empire DID look on native Indians as inferior.
The scene in the cave probably sent some women into palpitations, wondering what really happened, and using their imagination to fill in the gaps.

Don't get me started on 'worst books ever'. That would have to be Dune.

OK - this might be the oldest reply ever, but SURELY you can name Hugo and Lefty???
starting from the beginning of the thread, are you ? ;)

you're right though, i can name Hugo and Lefty. i should have said "three articles of clothing." then again, i'm not *always* wearing them ; they do seem to lead rather full lives, you'll have noticed. :rolleyes:

Hrm - can I think of 10 bad books?

1 - Lord of the Rings. I did actually scream in frustration when Gandalf came back after apparently dying.
2 - The da Vinci Code - in the words of a colleague "A very dumbed down Foucoult's Pendulum"
3 - Some fantasy book with talking cats in it. I have expunged the name from my memory when I threw it across the room
4 - A Passage to India. Nothing was quite interesting enough to carry what little story there was.
5 - Wuthering Heights. But not the Kate Bush song, which I love.

Ummm, I've kinda run out of really bad books I've read. I might be able to dredge up some so-so ones...

...i should have said "three articles of clothing." then again, i'm not *always* wearing them...

As evidenced by your current avatar. Ahem.

As evidenced by your current avatar. Ahem.

well, you would know about my current avatar. Ahem. :p

well, you would know about my current avatar. Ahem. :p

For gosh sakes... put some socks on woman!

well, you would know about my current avatar. Ahem. :p


ahem. Something going on here you would like to share with the rest of the class?

For gosh sakes... put some socks on woman!
:pandalol:
ahem. Something going on here you would like to share with the rest of the class?

check my signature. ;)

Hmmm .... well, I know I'm going to get in all sorts of trouble for this, however, my top two worst books, based on body count alone, would have to be The Bible and The Koran. And, yes, I've read them both.

So shoot me. :rolleyes:

For gosh sakes... put some socks on woman!
spécial dédicace pilotbob :
18958

spécial dédicace pilotbob :
18956

:snicker:

Hmmm .... well, I know I'm going to get in all sorts of trouble for this, however, my top two worst books, based on body count alone, would have to be The Bible and The Koran. And, yes, I've read them both.

So shoot me. :rolleyes:

The books aren' so bad..........its the freakin' idiots who choose to translate them to fit their own political agenda who are bad!:smack:

The books aren' so bad..........its the freakin' idiots who choose to translate them to fit their own political agenda who are bad!:smack:

I didn't find either of them terribly well written, actually, and both have a lot of inconsistencies (which I find annoying), but I really can't separate the literary work from it's impact on society. And by "society" I mean the broader society of humankind. Since so many people have been tortured and murdered in the name of these two books, and I don't see either as having the literary merit they are often afforded (divine inspiration and all that) .... and before I forget, I would also have to add the Book of Morman to the list (also read that - deadly dull - and people have been killed in the name of that book as well) they will remain on the top of my list of worst books.

Books have been banned that have caused less deaths ... just sayin. :chinscratch:

I didn't find either of them terribly well written, actually, and both have a lot of inconsistencies (which I find annoying), but I really can't separate the literary work from it's impact on society. And by "society" I mean the broader society of humankind. Since so many people have been tortured and murdered in the name of these two books, and I don't see either as having the literary merit they are often afforded (divine inspiration and all that) .... and before I forget, I would also have to add the Book of Morman to the list (also read that - deadly dull - and people have been killed in the name of that book as well) they will remain on the top of my list of worst books.

Books have been banned that have caused less deaths ... just sayin. :chinscratch:

I hear exactly what you are saying.

However, those doing the torturing and killing were not motivated by the books. They were motivated by their own agendas (power and instilling fear) and chose to use passages in the books to lend credence.

Yes, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch hunts, the beheadings, all the wrongs committed by so called clergy and men of God were attributed to the bibles teachings.

But these men chose to pervert the words to their own use. As long as people will be sheep and follow their leaders, without thinking, these things will happen.

Truth be told, we don't even know that the words we read today are those that were originally written. How many times has the bible been 'translated' by both protestant and catholic popes and kings?
I treasure the bible for the good things it teaches us.....mainly the 10 commandments.

I hear exactly what you are saying.

However, those doing the torturing and killing were not motivated by the books. They were motivated by their own agendas (power and instilling fear) and chose to use passages in the books to lend credence.

Yes, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch hunts, the beheadings, all the wrongs committed by so called clergy and men of God were attributed to the bibles teachings.

But these men chose to pervert the words to their own use. As long as people will be sheep and follow their leaders, without thinking, these things will happen.

Truth be told, we don't even know that the words we read today are those that were originally written. How many times has the bible been 'translated' by both protestant and catholic popes and kings?
I treasure the bible for the good things it teaches us.....mainly the 10 commandments.

Yep ... and if that's all any one of those three books said, I doubt I'd have a problem with any of them. But, seriously, I don't think any of the three are all that well written either. I realize that is a wholly personal opinion, but, as such, I'll stand by it.

Yep ... and if that's all any one of those three books said, I doubt I'd have a problem with any of them. But, seriously, I don't think any of the three are all that well written either. I realize that is a wholly personal opinion, but, as such, I'll stand by it.
No! Your opinions are always so mercurial and changing! :p

Yep ... and if that's all any one of those three books said, I doubt I'd have a problem with any of them. But, seriously, I don't think any of the three are all that well written either. I realize that is a wholly personal opinion, but, as such, I'll stand by it.

I STILL say "Dune" is worse than any of them.......just sayin'......:p

Hrm - can I think of 10 bad books?

1 - Lord of the Rings. I did actually scream in frustration when Gandalf came back after apparently dying.



Gandalf did die. Its part of the christian imagery in the book; each of the christ figures in the book (Gandalf, Frodo and Aragorn) wins a victory over death...

Sigh, anyway, I quite like the Lord of the Rings, but to each their own.

--
Bill

Gandalf did die. Its part of the christian imagery in the book; each of the christ figures in the book (Gandalf, Frodo and Aragorn) wins a victory over death...

Sigh, anyway, I quite like the Lord of the Rings, but to each their own.

--
Bill

Dang. Never saw that. Kinda puts the series in a new light....

Hmmm .... well, I know I'm going to get in all sorts of trouble for this, however, my top two worst books, based on body count alone, would have to be The Bible and The Koran. And, yes, I've read them both.

So shoot me. :rolleyes:

Actually by those standards, the Communist Manifesto might have them both beaten. The Body count that the communism racked up in the 20th century (Between Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others) probably approaches 100 million. It is very hard to get either Christianity or Islam anywhere near that figure without casting a very broad net (i.e., blaming everything done by anyone connected in any way to one of those religions on the religions).

--
Bill

Dang. Never saw that. Kinda puts the series in a new light....

Oh yeah, though not as obvious as C.S. Lewis's Narnia, Tolkien definitely built his Christian ideas into the story.

Aragorn is Christ the King, returned to rule justly.
Gandalf is Christ the Prophet, who warns and encourages the faithful.
Frodo is Christ the Sacrifice who saves mankind through offering his own life so that the people of Middle Earth might live free.

Gandalf is also essentially an angel (though you need to read additional materials to learn that).

I could go on and on... but I won't :).

--
Bill

Hmmm .... well, I know I'm going to get in all sorts of trouble for this, however, my top two worst books, based on body count alone, would have to be The Bible and The Koran. And, yes, I've read them both.

So shoot me. :rolleyes:

I was going to shoot you. Then I saw the Guinea Pirate and was overwelmed by the cuteness. You live for one more day.

Yep ... and if that's all any one of those three books said, I doubt I'd have a problem with any of them. But, seriously, I don't think any of the three are all that well written either. I realize that is a wholly personal opinion, but, as such, I'll stand by it.

You know, all three were primarily written to provide information and teach lessons, not win awards. :)

I treasure the bible for the good things it teaches us.....mainly the 10 commandments.

[Possible ignition of flamewar on]
Wow... really?

I would probably go for some of the more loving commandments of the new testament like "love thy neighbour" instead. I have difficulty understanding why people would choose justice instead of compassion. Judgement instead of forgiveness.

Can't really see how the christian message corresponds with the old testament and it's vengeful god.

But maybe that's just me.
[flaming off]


On topic:

I thoroughly hated Pillars of the earth by Follett. I thought the setbacks would never end. And I have trouble with antagonists being described not just as evil, but evil incarnate. It's not enough that the antagonist rapes and pillages, we have to read about how his favourite hobby is torturing cats etc.

Black vs. white is seldom interesting literature imo.

I thoroughly hated Pillars of the earth by Follett.

Wow - that's one of my all-time favourite books.

Wow - that's one of my all-time favourite books.

Harry, can you comment on the accusation that the antagonist is unrealistically evil? Would you disagree or did it not bother you? I'm curious because I have this book "in the queue" on my Reader.

Harry, can you comment on the accusation that the antagonist is unrealistically evil? Would you disagree or did it not bother you? I'm curious because I have this book "in the queue" on my Reader.

He's not going to win any "Mr. Nice Guy" awards, but "unrealistically evil"? No - he certainly didn't come across that way to me. I found it to be an utterly absorbing book; one of the few that I "couldn't put down".

Comme dirait un plombier " L'égoût ça se discute pas".

Wow, 11 pages later and nobody has laughed yet? :D Sorry yvan, but *I* liked your joke...

I can usually enjoy any book at all, if I come in with reasonable expectations.

That being said, the worst book I can think of is "The Iron Tree" by Cecilia Dart-Thornton.

Read some of the reviews on amazon (I know I wrote one) if you want to get an idea.

Have I made the list yet???

Have I made the list yet???


You have a book? Elucidate us! :)

Have I made the list yet???

You haven't finished the story yet!

(And it certainly wouldn't be on my list of worst books, anyway :) )

sir sir, you're looking at the wrong list. ;)

Gandalf did die. Its part of the christian imagery in the book; each of the christ figures in the book (Gandalf, Frodo and Aragorn) wins a victory over death...

Sigh, anyway, I quite like the Lord of the Rings, but to each their own.

--
Bill

I am fully aware I am in a very small minority by not only not liking the books, but putting them in my worst 5 ;)

Personally, I prefer my fantasy to have less overt religious imagery in it. However, I can see what people see in it, and why they like it so much.

You haven't finished the story yet!

(And it certainly wouldn't be on my list of worst books, anyway :) )

Oh......THAT..........:D

He's not going to win any "Mr. Nice Guy" awards, but "unrealistically evil"? No - he certainly didn't come across that way to me. I found it to be an utterly absorbing book; one of the few that I "couldn't put down".

Ok, can you mention one passage in the book where William is portrayed in a somewhat positive light?

I mean, we get that he's a bad person after all the beating and raping and burning down villages and killing of local peasants. Why would Follett find it necessary to write the scene where he tortures cats on top of that. I don't want to be spoonfed by the author when I read, and I feel he does just that.

Same thing with the narrative. It gets so repititive that it becomes a cliché. How many times are things looking up, just when the ruthless evil of Valeran and William yet again destroys everything, and we are back to square one?

I'm well aware that a lot of people enjoyed the book, and that's all good.

I'm just not particularly impressed with neither the characterisation nor the narrative structure of the book myself.

He's not going to win any "Mr. Nice Guy" awards, but "unrealistically evil"? No - he certainly didn't come across that way to me. I found it to be an utterly absorbing book; one of the few that I "couldn't put down".Agreed with you Harry. The Pillars is one of my favorites also. And I like Gothic architecture so that makes me somewhat biased.

But speaking of villany, the Middle Ages citizen was not policed as much as today's citizen is, meaning that one could easily take the path of evil or the one of good, without being hampered. Try to tell a Baron locked up in his castle that he is wrong and he'll laugh you away for years. If you have read the book (as I hope you have) you will have witnessed a large number of similar situations: as history will also point to you. I've just finished "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova where she relates parts of Vlad's prowesses at evil treatments. The exploitation of pain was part of those days' political control and many were adept at the craft, it was expected of a ruler.

What I liked of the Pillars is that it showed a good side of the Middle Ages I did not know of and I found it refreshing.

Agreed with you Harry. The Pillars is one of my favorites also. And I like Gothic architecture so that makes me somewhat biased.

But speaking of villany, the Middle Ages citizen was not policed as much as today's citizen is, meaning that one could easily take the path of evil or the one of good, without being hampered. Try to tell a Baron locked up in his castle that he is wrong and he'll laugh you away for years. If you have read the book (as I hope you have) you will have witnessed a large number of similar situations: as history will also point to you. I've just finished "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova where she relates parts of Vlad's prowesses at evil treatments. The exploitation of pain was part of those days' political control and many were adept at the craft, it was expected of a ruler.

What I liked of the Pillars is that it showed a good side of the Middle Ages I did not know of and I found it refreshing.

I keep waffling on purchasing "Pillars," and I think you just sealed it for me.

I would nominate anything by Lisa Goldstein as my candidate for worst novel ever. For more, see my review of Walking the Labyrinth on Amazon (as Pat Shepard).

I keep waffling on purchasing "Pillars," and I think you just sealed it for me.

I have read quite a few bad reviews on the book on some fantasy books forums.

I have read quite a few bad reviews on the book on some fantasy books forums.

Fantasy? In no way is it a fantasy book - it's a straightforward historical novel. If people are reading it expecting a fantasy, no wonder they are disappointed!

Take a look at the (numerous) reviews of it on Amazon - they are overwhelmingly extremely positive.

Fantasy? In no way is it a fantasy book - it's a straightforward historical novel. If people are reading it expecting a fantasy, no wonder they are disappointed!

Take a look at the (numerous) reviews of it on Amazon - they are overwhelmingly extremely positive.

No. They didn't expect fantasy novel. I just wanted to give as much info as possible about where I have read the reviews.
If I was posting on one of the forums and I wanted to mention this topic, I would say mobileread forum....should they ask me: What? Mobile? If they expected to read about new gadget,no wonder they are disappointed! :p

I'm with HarryT on Pillars of the Earth......loved it. I could agree that the characters aren't masterfully sketched, but I found them credible and the portrayal of life at the time was fascinating. If the book is at all accurate, people really lived close to the edge with a precarious food supply and capricious, unpredictable "rulers/lords". Who was it who wrote "Life is nasty, brutish and short"? That's what I kept thinking about when I was reading the book. It makes me very grateful for the relative stability of my life today.

I'm with HarryT on Pillars of the Earth......loved it. I could agree that the characters aren't masterfully sketched, but I found them credible and the portrayal of life at the time was fascinating. If the book is at all accurate, people really lived close to the edge with a precarious food supply and capricious, unpredictable "rulers/lords". Who was it who wrote "Life is nasty, brutish and short"? That's what I kept thinking about when I was reading the book. It makes me very grateful for the relative stability of my life today.

I haven't read Pillars yet, but I did major in history and specialized in Medieval Studies. Yep, life was nasty, brutish and short. You get all sorts of weird contradictions. Sons would wage war on their fathers for the throne they would inherit in time anyway (Richard the Lion Hearted did this to his father Henry II), and slaughter thousands in the name of God.

--
Bill

for me it's
garp

and

A Son of the Circus

both from John Irving.
i never throw away book - i did with both of them.
take care
harry

I love Pillars of the Earth. I've always meant to read it again. It was the best book I ever read about medieval --> renaissance which was a fascinating time period for me, until I ran into the Dorothy Dunnett books (which aren't in ebook yet and are set somewhat later.).

In my life, the only book I remember intentionally throwing away is J.V. Jones - The Baker's Boy. I was disappointed because I'd heard so many good things about it being the beginning of a great fantasy series and I thought it was awful. And I've never been able to read anything by Gene Wolfe. The ones I memorably hated were Shadow of the Torturer and Claw of the Conciliator.

I thought 'Pillars of Earth' was an entertaining romp.
Has anyone read the sequel, 'Word Without End', and can give an opinion on how they compare?

Yes, I read "World Without End". To me, it was a bit more "formulaic" if that makes sense. If you enjoyed Pillars because of the snapshot in history, then you will probably like "World". It takes place roughly a couple of centuries later and so you get to see a different slice of time and I thought that was interesting. But I didn't think the plot or the characters were as compelling in World as in Pillars.

Long story short.....it's worth the time to read, but not quite as good as the first one.

Thanks for the review Katiesue - I'll probably give 'World Without End' a miss for now.

for me it's
garp

and

A Son of the Circus

both from John Irving
...

Ah, well, The World According to Garp was one of my favourite books, but I admit I wasn't so fond of A Son of the Circus. Have you read any other books by John Irving? Some folk say Cider House Rules is his best, but I didn't much like that either. I enjoyed A Prayer for Owen Meany and, to be honest, it was the first book of his that I've wanted to re-read (though I haven't as yet - too many other books to get through ;) ).

What turned you off with Garp? (note, I'm not going to disagree with you, or get defensive about it, I promise. I ask purely out of curiosity because, like with other "worst"s in this thread, it interests me most when people don't like books otherwise popular, or books that were my favourites).

Cheers,
Marc

Mr. Wolf, at the time it was written, it probably had way more relevance. Women DID act like that. Men DID have those attitudes. The English empire DID look on native Indians as inferior.
The scene in the cave probably sent some women into palpitations, wondering what really happened, and using their imagination to fill in the gaps.

Don't get me started on 'worst books ever'. That would have to be Dune.

Maybe things really were like that back then. But to me today, I find it to be dull as all can be. The only bit I actually enjoyed was the bit in the Mosk (sp?).

As for Dune, I rather enjoyed it.

Yes, I read "World Without End". To me, it was a bit more "formulaic" if that makes sense. If you enjoyed Pillars because of the snapshot in history, then you will probably like "World". It takes place roughly a couple of centuries later and so you get to see a different slice of time and I thought that was interesting. But I didn't think the plot or the characters were as compelling in World as in Pillars.

Long story short.....it's worth the time to read, but not quite as good as the first one.Aaarrrgh!... I gave a copy of it to my wife as a present, hoping she wouldn't mind my reading it when she's done. :eek:SHE PUT IT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PILE!!!
That pile measures in years!:smack:

Maybe I'll just wake up during the night to snack on it.:wink3:
Or buy an ecopy cauz that thing is HEAVYYYY.

Amazon Search, keywords: Dune Brian Herbert. (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Dune+Brian+Herbert&x=0&y=0)

It's funny to me because I grew up reading references to that, never getting the idea(granted I also thought black sabbath was a satanic day of worship when I first read a book mentioning it). I read the first few pages of dune and gave up, I had been told they were all dreadfully dull and believed it.
:smack:
I missed out on the fact that there was more then one author.
:rofl:

I got dune on tape and was amazed at how great it was, I figured everyone was mistaken. So I started reading the rest of the series and I read my way though all of them, I even made it as far as Duke Leto the second falling off a bridge, started to think I kind of get the idea, it seems like the author wandered off and gotten lost in his topic(like this paragraph:))
And finally the light went on.
:bulb2:

Frank Herbert is not Brian Herbert

to montsnmags
Hi Marc, I had read Garp allmost 20 Years ago, I think, and i didn't get it. Maybe because it was translated to german. The only thing i remember was that car eccident in front of the house.

The same was with child of circus. It was also translated to german and was highly recommended - but i didn't like it.
That was my experience with Irving.
i like Mika Waltari, Tom Clancy, Ken Follett, the earth children (Ayla) from J.M.Auel (but not the last book, that sucks).
i read them all in german and most of them in english - what is a lot better.
One other good writer is Nelson DeMille - he inspired me to a lot of trips around NYC.
I did all that reading with my palmone lifedrive. now with the Sony, I will start over all the classics - and all in english.
take care
harry

I have the principle that once I've started a book I don't quit - I keep reading out of some misguided idea that there *must* be some point/reason/idea in it eventually... That being said, there are a few books that I so far have been *unable* to finish (they loom like threatening clouds in the bottom of the bookshelf)....

So my list of worst books includes:
- Satanic Verses by Rushdie (I keep going back and starting over, thinking I must be missing something, since it raised such a lively debate worldwide, but just can't get past the dark cloud)
- most of John Grishams books (read a couple and you've read them all....)
- Kane and Abel by Jeffrey Archer
- Trading up by Candace Bushnell
- Torey Hayden (they give me the feeling that the ultimate motive for writing the books after the first is, in addition to making money, to tell the world how good she is...)

I have the principle that once I've started a book I don't quit - I keep reading out of some misguided idea that there *must* be some point/reason/idea in it eventually... That being said, there are a few books that I so far have been *unable* to finish (they loom like threatening clouds in the bottom of the bookshelf)....

So my list of worst books includes:
- Satanic Verses by Rushdie (I keep going back and starting over, thinking I must be missing something, since it raised such a lively debate worldwide, but just can't get past the dark cloud)
- most of John Grishams books (read a couple and you've read them all....)
- Kane and Abel by Jeffrey Archer
- Trading up by Candace Bushnell
- Torey Hayden (they give me the feeling that the ultimate motive for writing the books after the first is, in addition to making money, to tell the world how good she is...)

Unfortunately, I am following the same rule :(

From the list I submitted, the following were finished :eek::
American Gods by Neil Gaiman
The Earthsea by Ursula Le Guine
The Redemption of Althalus by David Eddings and Leigh Eddings
The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Milan Kundera
The Wind-up Bird Chronicles by Haruki Murakami
+
Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny
+
The Secret History of Moscow by Ekaterina Sedia


However I have learned the lesson and ...
Thomas Covenant Series by Stephen Donaldson[1/3 into the first volume, then scanned the rest of the book]
The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe [1.5 out of 5 books]
The Soddit by Adam Roberts [probably no more than 20 pages]

Since then two more books have been added to the list that I successfully managed to abandon:
The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco
and
Catch-22 by Joseph Heller

I do plan to read Satanic Verses by Rushdie but something is telling me, that although the theme is exciting the book is going to be boring and I will drop it.

to montsnmags
Hi Marc, I had read Garp allmost 20 Years ago, I think, and i didn't get it. Maybe because it was translated to german. The only thing i remember was that car eccident in front of the house.

It's hard to know if it was translation. It could just be that you wouldn't have liked it in any language or with any translation. That's a perfectly reasonable response. The book I think others would strongly disagree with me about, and that was on my list of "worst" books, was The Sea, The Sea by Iris Murdoch. Certainly most critics would disagree with me, including those behind the Booker Prize. I'm okay with that though...I still found it frightfully dull and pointless. :)

The same was with child of circus. It was also translated to german and was highly recommended - but i didn't like it.
That was my experience with Irving.

Well, I certainly wouldn't continue to torture myself if I'd read two books by an author and not enjoyed either (I'd probably give up on the author after just one!). :)

i like Mika Waltari, Tom Clancy, Ken Follett, the earth children (Ayla) from J.M.Auel (but not the last book, that sucks).
i read them all in german and most of them in english - what is a lot better.

I do not know the first author (but I will google for the name). I quite enjoyed Tom Clancy's earlier work - particularly the "boring details" which he tends to be quite thorough with. I've yet to read a Ken Follet, though I've Pillars of the Earth around here somewhere. I've never read J.M.Auel, though I know my mother loves them (I have a feeling she said the same thing about the last book).

Thanks for the response, Harry.

...
So my list of worst books includes:
- Satanic Verses by Rushdie (I keep going back and starting over, thinking I must be missing something, since it raised such a lively debate worldwide, but just can't get past the dark cloud)

I've started it a couple of times. I really enjoy the writing, but something keeps making me put it down. That was a few years ago now though; maybe my more relaxed state of mind will give it another chance.

I've been told Midnight's Children is the much better book to start on with Salman Rushdie, so I'm thinking of giving that a go first.

Cheers,
Marc

- - -Since then two more books have been added to the list that I successfully managed to abandon:
The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco
and - - -

Oh, you reminded me. That is one of my unread books as well, it's just been placed in the main part of my library, not on the unread shelves... But I've only managed a 1/4 or so of that book so far....

Oh, you reminded me. That is one of my unread books as well, it's just been placed in the main part of my library, not on the unread shelves... But I've only managed a 1/4 or so of that book so far....

Which just goes to show that people have different tastes.
I really like The Name of the Rose.

I don't have a top 10 worst books list, but these come to mind:

Bikini Planet (It's a train wreck of a book. The kind of train wreck you can't look away from because it's so bad.)
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever (Just nasty.)
Childe Morgan (A dismal disappointment in an otherwise fantastic series.) ("In the King's Service" isn't far behind.)

I did enjoy The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. I remember one summer devouring the first series in almost no time flat. I've read the 2nd series and I'm now into the last series. The last series is going to be 4 books and I've read the first one with the 2nd one on my 505.

Now are there any books we can ALL agree are nasty?

Now are there any books we can ALL agree are nasty?

Probably not. :) Every book probably has someone out there who likes it. And my sister probably thinks most of what I read is awful as well. We don't trade books much. (I don't read romance novels, she doesn't read sci-fi/fantasy.)

Unfortunately, I am following the same rule :(


Since then two more books have been added to the list that I successfully managed to abandon:
The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco
and
Catch-22 by Joseph Heller



I have been going through this thread and found myself feeling very isolated. Books which I love are loathed by some, but no one had mentioned the only book I can honestly say I hated. Catch-22, I read to the halfway point, and ended up throwing it in the bin. It all felt so pointless. Then again, it was probably a well written book, I remember the feelings it inspired even after 30 years. There have been other books I haven't finished, but they were probably poor books, as I don't even remember them at all.

The_callant

And I remember Catch-22 as a very good book and if I remember correctly a very funny book.

Some book I have read and for some reasons disliked a lot are _Forever Peace_ (Joe Haldeman) and The Dirk Gently Books by Douglas Adams. I have probably read too little mainstream books to really have 10 worst books. A genre books usually have a plot so you usually got something from reading it even if the rest of the components are bad.

I totally agree with you, tompe....about your assessment of Catch-22.

Don

Here are some of the worst that I have read!

Angels & Demons by Dan Brown
read it for a book club and no one liked it!

The Magic Circle by Katherine Neville
The Eight was good but she fell flat on her face with this one.

Harry Potter past #4

Wheel of Time Series

Sword of Truth Series
maybe I'm not as big a fantasy fan as I thought I was..........

Ten-Four on The Gor!

Anything Shannara

I'm going to have to go with the Chronicles of Narnia.

I find them poorly written, and the way they've been hijacked to be the "Anti-Potter" has just pushed me away from them.

The sad thing is, CS Lewis wrote them to reach out to all.. but now I can't read them without feeling sick to my stomach.

I'm going to have to go with the Chronicles of Narnia.

I find them poorly written, and the way they've been hijacked to be the "Anti-Potter" has just pushed me away from them.

The sad thing is, CS Lewis wrote them to reach out to all.. but now I can't read them without feeling sick to my stomach.
what do you mean by this ? i hadn't heard about that.

what do you mean by this ? i hadn't heard about that.

The only thing I can think of is that the religious nuts who refuse to read Harry Potter because there is witchcraft can read Chronicles because it was written by a known Christian author with Christian themes.

The only thing I can think of is that the religious nuts who refuse to read Harry Potter because there is witchcraft can read Chronicles because it was written by a known Christian author with Christian themes.
oh my. :smack:

oh my. :smack:


I know. :sigh:

The only thing I can think of is that the religious nuts who refuse to read Harry Potter because there is witchcraft can read Chronicles because it was written by a known Christian author with Christian themes.
Using magic. Go figure.

what do you mean by this ? i hadn't heard about that.

Down here, in DA SOUTH, they held book burnings of Harry Potter, where if you burned your complete set of Harry Potter books, you were given a set of Narnia books.

It's regularly preached against as a conversion tool, and it's unsafe to read it if you're not a christian, because you'll get someone randomly coming up to you and bashing potter.

Down here, in DA SOUTH, they held book burnings of Harry Potter, where if you burned your complete set of Harry Potter books, you were given a set of Narnia books.

It's regularly preached against as a conversion tool, and it's unsafe to read it if you're not a christian, because you'll get someone randomly coming up to you and bashing potter.

wow. that's... kinda scary actually. i have a hard time imagining things like that going on. has anyone mentioned to them that it's 2008 ??? (practically 2009, in fact !).

wow. that's... kinda scary actually. i have a hard time imagining things like that going on. has anyone mentioned to them that it's 2008 ??? (practically 2009, in fact !).

Welcome to America...

Welcome to America...

no no........please don't judge us by some remote, religious nuts who choose to interpret the bible by their own narrow versions.

We live in a country where anyone is free to think and do mostly as they please.

This is both a wonderful thing, and a dangerous thing.

You are free here to rant and rave against a government who allows you to do so without restraint or fear of retribution. Go figure.

Down here, in DA SOUTH, they held book burnings of Harry Potter, where if you burned your complete set of Harry Potter books, you were given a set of Narnia books.

It's regularly preached against as a conversion tool, and it's unsafe to read it if you're not a christian, because you'll get someone randomly coming up to you and bashing potter.

no no........please don't judge us by some remote, religious nuts who choose to interpret the bible by their own narrow versions.

We live in a country where anyone is free to think and do mostly as they please.

This is both a wonderful thing, and a dangerous thing.

You are free here to rant and rave against a government who allows you to do so without restraint or fear of retribution. Go figure.

"The land of the free" always fascinates me with this kind of news.

There is one thing you do not mention Redcard. Where do these things occur? Is it in your town, at school or at a place of worship.

I've always wondered just what these religious extremists believe is going to happen to people who read HP? ie what exactly is the "danger" in it?

I've always wondered just what these religious extremists believe is going to happen to people who read HP? ie what exactly is the "danger" in it?

Because its the 'devils way to lead you into paths of non-righteousness"

Another power play, in other words. If you don't believe as they do , you are on the 'devils side'.

It sounds to me as if they don't have a very strong faith if they believe that it's going to be swayed by a fictional depiction of something that they personally disapprove of. Any belief that can't stand up to questioning is probably not worth having in the first place.

It sounds to me as if they don't have a very strong faith if they believe that it's going to be swayed by a fictional depiction of something that they personally disapprove of. Any belief that can't stand up to questioning is probably not worth having in the first place.

Thats got nothing to do with it, Harry. Its a power trip. The leaders can dictate what you do and do not believe, how you live, etc.

Just like any dictator.

Thats got nothing to do with it, Harry. Its a power trip. The leaders can dictate what you do and do not believe, how you live, etc.

Just like any dictator.

Interesting way to put it. I always saw it as trying to control everything, which goes along with what you said.

"The land of the free" always fascinates me with this kind of news.

There is one thing you do not mention Redcard. Where do these things occur? Is it in your town, at school or at a place of worship.

Churches mostly in my area, around Nashville. (No, it's not "remote", not even close.)

There are some schools in the area that have pulled it from their "allowed reading" lists, as well as other books, under pressure.. but many still let it go.

Churches mostly in my area, around Nashville. (No, it's not "remote", not even close.)

There are some schools in the area that have pulled it from their "allowed reading" lists, as well as other books, under pressure.. but many still let it go.Are those church or State run schools?

Thats got nothing to do with it, Harry. Its a power trip. The leaders can dictate what you do and do not believe, how you live, etc.

Just like any dictator.

Sigh, you know, while I am sure that there are some who seek power for its own sake, and most of those who have power might well enjoy its use, I think it is very dangerous to believe that those who do wield power wield it arbitrarily.

Many dictators, especially religious dictators really truly believe what they preach. It is often that belief that encourages their quest for power in the first place.

The simple fact of the matter is that many Christians, especially Christian fundamentalists use an older definition of magic that essentially was built around bargaining with supernatural powers for power. Such definitions existed for centuries. From the Christian perspective, that sort of magic certainly would be a threat. Unfortunately the definition of what is and what is not magic has changed radically over the past several decades. What Harry Potter uses could have been labeled super powers or psionics and in many respects the story would have been little different, but the use of the term magic (and particularly the term witches which also implies pacts with supernatural powers in older definitions ... sorry if I offend any wicca here, but that is what it essentially was prior to 1900) can certainly be upsetting to some Christians.

Now, as a Christian, I think Harry Potter is mostly harmless fun (though as with many things, there are some who take it way too seriously), but I think it would be a mistake to simply dismiss the concerns of other Christians as a "Power Trip"

--
Bill

Now, as a Christian, I think Harry Potter is mostly harmless fun (though as with many things, there are some who take it way too seriously), but I think it would be a mistake to simply dismiss the concerns of other Christians as a "Power Trip"

--
Bill

"Concerns of other Christians" is one thing. Actually forbidding the reading of books they don't approve of, having them pulled from library shelves, and encouraging book burnings is another. Thats a power trip.

The simple fact of the matter is that many Christians, especially Christian fundamentalists use an older definition of magic that essentially was built around bargaining with supernatural powers for power. Such definitions existed for centuries. From the Christian perspective, that sort of magic certainly would be a threat. Unfortunately the definition of what is and what is not magic has changed radically over the past several decades. What Harry Potter uses could have been labeled super powers or psionics and in many respects the story would have been little different, but the use of the term magic (and particularly the term witches which also implies pacts with supernatural powers in older definitions ... sorry if I offend any wicca here, but that is what it essentially was prior to 1900) can certainly be upsetting to some Christians.


Bill,

I appreciate that some may wish not to read it for the reasons you state. That's absolutely fine with me. What I very strongly object to, however, is such people trying to prevent others from reading it.

Are those church or State run schools?

State run.

That's why there's the trouble.

Church run schools around here have long since banned it without much dissent.

I thought that American state schools weren't allowed to do anything "religious". Isn't there a legally-enforced separation between church and state in the US?

I thought that American state schools weren't allowed to do anything "religious". Isn't there a legally-enforced separation between church and state in the US?

But, schools are not allowed to make the kids do things that are against their (parents) religious beliefs.

BOb

But, schools are not allowed to make the kids do things that are against their (parents) religious beliefs.

BOb

I help in a class of kindergartners. One is Jehovahs's Witness. She will not say the pledge, but at least has been taught by her parents to stand respectfully while it is being said.

I help in a class of kindergartners. One is Jehovahs's Witness. She will not say the pledge, but at least has been taught by her parents to stand respectfully while it is being said.

That's a good thing.

I remember when I was in Kindergarten I got in trouble for letting the flag touch the ground. They wouldn't let me hold it up after that, it made me sad :(

That's a good thing.

I remember when I was in Kindergarten I got in trouble for letting the flag touch the ground. They wouldn't let me hold it up after that, it made me sad :(


awwww.......I would have given you another chance! Because you always learn from your mistakes!

awwww.......I would have given you another chance! Because you always learn from your mistakes!

That's what I thought :(

I also went to catholic school for a few years. But we won't get into that.

That's what I thought :(

I also went to catholic school for a few years. But we won't get into that.

Me too...and it was WAY before you. And you are right. We will most definitely NOT get into that! :rofl:

I thought that American state schools weren't allowed to do anything "religious". Isn't there a legally-enforced separation between church and state in the US?

I think it then goes down to the difference between a white-list and a black-list... Parents feeling that the school is forcing a religious viewpoint on their child, whether it is the Ten Commandments or Harry Potter (No, I don't believe it is religious in nature, but I can't dismiss their viewpoints), have a say in the matter. Banning a book from a schools library would be wrong. Having a majority of parents having a text removed from a required reading list -for religious reasons- that they don't want their children to read isn't. Regardless of my views on the text or how I would raise my children.

-MJ

Heh... I originally lurked in here to see if any of my books were turning up... :D

But now that I'm here: I'm surprised at a few mentions of A.C. Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama in here. Understanding that it's the reader's opinion, I'll just say that I loved the book, and part of the reason was because when I read it, there were no sequels, nor plans to write any. Taken by itself, Rama is a superior book. But I agree, the series itself is pretty sad. Clarke, overall, is an author people have to be into... his style is very distinctive, and not everyone is good with it.

I can't contribute much to this thread, because there are very few bad books that I've ever read (I'm careful about the books I touch)... and most of them have been blocked out by my subconscious by now. One in particular that was not blocked out was Michael Crichton's Congo... one of the few books I ever literally threw in the trash immediately upon finishing.

BTW I failed to mention that "Rendezvous with Rama" is in preproduction to be filmed next year.

I am appropriately scared.

Sigh, you know, while I am sure that there are some who seek power for its own sake, and most of those who have power might well enjoy its use, I think it is very dangerous to believe that those who do wield power wield it arbitrarily.
--
Bill

It is still a power trip, whether they truely believe in what they are doing or not. They are trying to grab power that they should not have.

I thought that American state schools weren't allowed to do anything "religious". Isn't there a legally-enforced separation between church and state in the US?

American public schools are not allowed to "officially" endorse or repress a religion. So a school can't say a prayer over the school PA system during an official event. But the school can rent out or offer space to religous groups. Many churches and prayer groups meet at public schools during off hours.

Some Christians in our country claim that there is no prayer in school, which is totally false. Every student is within their right to pray, even in groups. Although, the school does have the power to enforce order.

American public schools are not allowed to "officially" endorse or repress a religion. So a school can't say a prayer over the school PA system during an official event. But the school can rent out or offer space to religous groups. Many churches and prayer groups meet at public schools during off hours.

Some Christians in our country claim that there is no prayer in school, which is totally false. Every student is within their right to pray, even in groups. Although, the school does have the power to enforce order.

And you can believe EVERY student prays before and after exams! :D

And you can believe EVERY student prays before and after exams! :D

I pray at football games.

And I'm an athiest :eek:

I usually tell God I'll do something good in the world if He just helps PSU win this game.

I pray at football games.

And I'm an athiest :eek:

I usually tell God I'll do something good in the world if He just helps PSU win this game.

and........whats their record? :D

and........whats their record? :D

This season? 11-1. They ruined it for me though by losing to Iowa. IOWA! I mean, we beat Ohio State, Michigan (first time in 11 years), and we can't beat IOWA?? Seriously, I almost puked.

Plus we'll lose at the Rose Bowl (vs USC).

I wish I weren't so emotionally invested in Penn State football :(

This season? 11-1. They ruined it for me though by losing to Iowa. IOWA! I mean, we beat Ohio State, Michigan (first time in 11 years), and we can't beat IOWA?? Seriously, I almost puked.

Hey, the Gators lost one this year to Ole Miss.