I was reading Neil Gaiman's blog (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/04/my-life-in-green-and-purple.html) and he says:
Bob Miller, who was the publisher of Hyperion, is heading over to Harper Collins [NB: one of my publishers, and also the people who pay for this website] where he wants to set up an experimental publishing unit with no or low advances and with profit sharing for an author. It could be interesting -- I was particularly fascinated by the final line of the NYT coverage:
Mr. Miller said he was considering offering both e-book and audio editions of the hardcovers at no extra cost to the consumer.
Because it seems to me that giving away an e-Book with a hardback is an excellent way to grow the e-book world, and something that a publisher could do at little or no cost. And I like the idea of essentially having bought a HEART-SHAPED BOX license rather than a copy of HEART-SHAPED BOX -- of course buying the book would give you the audio and the text, not just the object.
More at The Guardian (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,2271165,00.html) and NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/business/04harper.html?ex=1365048000&en=90b4b2069c245a91&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink)

Nice and I've just expressed something similar in an other post of mine. For technical books, ebooks are sometimes included.

Hope this works out well, at least the ebook part. I'm not really interested in audio books.

For me the ideal situation would be... (and I'm using arbitrary prices here).

Cost :
6 dollars
+2 dollars if you want a paper copy
+7 dollars if you want an audio copy to download
+5 dollars for the "hardback" edition which means you get everything, plus the book in hardback format, plus a CD with a suitable codec of the audio book on it
+4 dollars if you want the audio book burnt to audio cds

That means...
6 dollars for the book in electronic format or 8 in paper format, the vast majority of purchases I guess
13 dollars for the book in audio format (as well as electronic) (maybe a 300MB download)
20 dollars for the hardback, with a CD of the MPs (or whatever codec)

Now remember I've picked arbitrary prices, there's no point arguing over the individual elements of the price. I think the basic principle is sound. People get to buy "the book" and they can opt to pay the costs to get it on the format they want.

If publishers like, they can opt to only allow the "full" 20 dollar option for the first 6 or 12 or whatever they like months, in the usual practice of gouging the people who won't wait.

For me it would mean I'd be spending 6 dollars on each book. For books I have a particular fondness for (e.g. Lord of the Rings) I'd probably buy the 13 dollar version, and have it on audio file as well as electronic book. For a book like Dune, I'd probably opt for the 20 dollar package.

For me the ideal situation would be... (and I'm using arbitrary prices here).

Cost :
6 dollars
+2 dollars if you want a paper copy
+7 dollars if you want an audio copy to download
+5 dollars for the "hardback" edition which means you get everything, plus the book in hardback format, plus a CD with a suitable codec of the audio book on it
+4 dollars if you want the audio book burnt to audio cds

That means...
6 dollars for the book in electronic format or 8 in paper format, the vast majority of purchases I guess
13 dollars for the book in audio format (as well as electronic) (maybe a 300MB download)
20 dollars for the hardback, with a CD of the MPs (or whatever codec)

Now remember I've picked arbitrary prices, there's no point arguing over the individual elements of the price. I think the basic principle is sound. People get to buy "the book" and they can opt to pay the costs to get it on the format they want.

If publishers like, they can opt to only allow the "full" 20 dollar option for the first 6 or 12 or whatever they like months, in the usual practice of gouging the people who won't wait.

For me it would mean I'd be spending 6 dollars on each book. For books I have a particular fondness for (e.g. Lord of the Rings) I'd probably buy the 13 dollar version, and have it on audio file as well as electronic book. For a book like Dune, I'd probably opt for the 20 dollar package.

i like the idea of a book being available in all formats, and you can choose which one(s) you want depending on the book, and the cost to you is based on material cost of producing certain formats (hardback is more expensive than paperback, which is more expensive than ebook...). i would love it if publishers would begin to use this model.

i know you said these are arbitrary prices and don't get too distracted by details, however i would like to add that on principle, since the current price of books is largely due to the cost of production (cost of paper, printing, binding, storage, shipping, storage again, etc.), i think an ebook should cost *less than half* of the price of a paper book. so to use your arbitrary numbers, if a paperback ends up at 8$, an ebook should only be 4$ (at most).

so, in the system you propose, if i understand, 6$ is the base price for the *content* (in ebook format alone) and each option would be added to the 6$, and these options are *cumulative*, which means say i want a hardcover copy but not audio, i pay :
6$ for the content
+ 2$ for the paper copy
+ 5$ for the hard cover (in addition to the 8$ already mentioned)
TOTAL : 13$

and then "complete" 20$ package is this plus 7$ for the audio, and the burning it on cds is thrown in free instead of costing 4$ ?

is this correct ?

@ mocelet : thanks for the links. those were really interesting articles and i am quite interested to see what happens in the near future in the publishing industry...

I hadn't come up with an option for hardback without audio - as I said I was picking arbitrary prices to make an example.

The complete would be 20 dollars, delivered. So you'd get a hardback, and 1 data CD with MP3s on it. Or if you wanted, 24 dollars, delivered for the hardback, and audio CDs of the audio book.

And really on principle you aren't paying for the eBook at all. You buy the content and you can add the eBook on at a cost of 0. So yeah, it's 6 dollars for the eBook, but that'd perhaps get people away from saying "I'm paying for an eBook I don't want, I only want it on paper".

I don't think though that printing costs are as high as they may be made out to be. I also think that perhaps in the future there will be more POD (Print on demand) and more central storage of books than there is now. I would expect there's a lot of overheads attached to paper books - a complete guess as follows.

1 dollar to print the thing
Cost to ship it to the retailer.
Cost of having 10 bookstores, and having to make sure each individual store has stocks of a book - e.g. some might sell out, some might sell none. So there's going to be at least some degree of moving them about.
Shrinkage (which means damages, and theft - i.e. at a stocktake it isn't there, or it needs to be discounted as it's damaged or thrown out).

In other words the cost of the paper edition isn't all about the cost of printing it, there's (I expect) larger costs associated with stocking it, hiring a location for the store, staff, shrinkage, redistribution etc.

Perhaps as the online model moves away from this, minimising these costs then it really will be a case of costing 2 dollars to print a book and have it sent out. Sure larger books will cost more (more printing, heavier parcels) but your normal throwaway paperback can't be that expensive if it's a large efficient organisation.

I hadn't come up with an option for hardback without audio - as I said I was picking arbitrary prices to make an example.

The complete would be 20 dollars, delivered. So you'd get a hardback, and 1 data CD with MP3s on it. Or if you wanted, 24 dollars, delivered for the hardback, and audio CDs of the audio book.

And really on principle you aren't paying for the eBook at all. You buy the content and you can add the eBook on at a cost of 0. So yeah, it's 6 dollars for the eBook, but that'd perhaps get people away from saying "I'm paying for an eBook I don't want, I only want it on paper".

well, regardless, as you say the important thing is to separate the *content* from the *container* and allow people to buy the content alone (this means the ebook, which is, granted, a form of container --especially if we start down the slippery slope of formats, etc. :rolleyes:-- however practically speaking i don't think many people will make this distinction, not for long anyway, because it's far too abstract), or pay a supplement to the price for a more costly-to-produce type of container.

I don't think though that printing costs are as high as they may be made out to be. I also think that perhaps in the future there will be more POD (Print on demand) and more central storage of books than there is now. I would expect there's a lot of overheads attached to paper books - a complete guess as follows.

1 dollar to print the thing
Cost to ship it to the retailer.
Cost of having 10 bookstores, and having to make sure each individual store has stocks of a book - e.g. some might sell out, some might sell none. So there's going to be at least some degree of moving them about.
Shrinkage (which means damages, and theft - i.e. at a stocktake it isn't there, or it needs to be discounted as it's damaged or thrown out).

In other words the cost of the paper edition isn't all about the cost of printing it, there's (I expect) larger costs associated with stocking it, hiring a location for the store, staff, shrinkage, redistribution etc.

Perhaps as the online model moves away from this, minimising these costs then it really will be a case of costing 2 dollars to print a book and have it sent out. Sure larger books will cost more (more printing, heavier parcels) but your normal throwaway paperback can't be that expensive if it's a large efficient organisation.

well, you may be right that the cost of printing is lower than i think, i don't really know much about it. however i was taking into account the peripheral costs you mentioned as well (such as moving the books about... especially since in the article they mention returning something like 40% of books to the publisher to be "pulped" :eek: what a scandalous waste of ressources !) and these must definitely add up.

so based on the *current model* i think half price for an ebook is reasonable. if printing prices go down, this could change, although i sincerely hope it would change in a way that is beneficial to everyone, that is, the price of paper books will decrease corresponding to the reduced costs of the editors, rather than "reduce the gap" between paper and digital prices without any reduction passed along to the end consumer...

there's a book i would like to read which is priced at 20€ for the first release large "fancy" paperback, and...19€ for the ebook. to me that is undefendable. especially since the first edition of this book contained typo errors !! (however, in defense of the editor, i must add that they have released a new ebook edition, where the errors have been corrected. i saw this in a conversation in the french discussion thread). i did not buy it because i refuse to pay so much for an ebook. i'm hoping that when the "pocket" size paperback comes out at a lower price, the price of the ebook will be reduced as well (this seems to be often the case), but this seems like a completely backwards way of operating to me. or, as you said, like price-gouging on the publisher's part.

there's a book i would like to read which is priced at 20€ for the first release large "fancy" paperback, and...19€ for the ebook. to me that is undefendable. especially since the first edition of this book contained typo errors !! (however, in defense of the editor, i must add that they have released a new ebook edition, where the errors have been corrected. i saw this in a conversation in the french discussion thread). i did not buy it because i refuse to pay so much for an ebook. i'm hoping that when the "pocket" size paperback comes out at a lower price, the price of the ebook will be reduced as well (this seems to be often the case), but this seems like a completely backwards way of operating to me. or, as you said, like price-gouging on the publisher's part.

I don't really have a problem with that. I'd have preferred the electronic version to be more than a dollar cheaper. But essentially when a book comes out there's a standard policy of charging way more than the paperback, because it's new. People have the choice of waiting for the paperback, or paying the extra.

When it comes to electronic versions, it seems fine to me to charge a way over the top price to start off with, and then reduce it later - at the same time as the paperback comes out. It's not as if the hardback costs significantly more than the paperback. We're only talking larger pages, and a thicker cover.

Of course after the paperback has been out for a while there's also the opportunity to buy it second hand, and I've also seen older paperbacks heavily discounted.

So perhaps we'll see a three tier system for content ; New, Current and Old. And at a guess, for my model above 15, 6, and 4 for pricing. That'd remove the hardcover option I guess, and cause the whole thing to be reworked.

I don't really have a problem with that. I'd have preferred the electronic version to be more than a dollar cheaper. But essentially when a book comes out there's a standard policy of charging way more than the paperback, because it's new. People have the choice of waiting for the paperback, or paying the extra.

When it comes to electronic versions, it seems fine to me to charge a way over the top price to start off with, and then reduce it later - at the same time as the paperback comes out. It's not as if the hardback costs significantly more than the paperback. We're only talking larger pages, and a thicker cover.

Of course after the paperback has been out for a while there's also the opportunity to buy it second hand, and I've also seen older paperbacks heavily discounted.

So perhaps we'll see a three tier system for content ; New, Current and Old. And at a guess, for my model above 15, 6, and 4 for pricing. That'd remove the hardcover option I guess, and cause the whole thing to be reworked.

i do understand the "more expensive when it's new" model, however i think there should be limits. 19€ for a digital copy of a 20€ paperbook is not a big enough difference. i could understand that they might be a bit more expensive than a paperback at first, but within reason.

i think a 3 tiered system like you describe would be brilliant, to simulate what currently exists in the used book market where the prices are significantly cheaper than new, and which cannot easily be replicated with ebooks. the "new" price seems a bit steep to me ; if the "current" price will be 6$, the new price could be around 10 to 12. this would allow publishers to continue to release the fancy paper book first at a high price, and then the pocket paperback later for less, with corresponding reduction in price of content in ebook form. and as you say, older content could be reduced even further.

i don't see why we would have to remove the hard cover option though ; it's just one more option.

makes sense to me

I think you really need to accept that the first copies of a book are going to be priced for the "I don't care, I want it now. NOW! Mommy! NOOOOOWWW!" market. If you can't afford it (or are not willing to pay), wait. There are books that I am, in all seriousness, waiting to see either as second hand paperbacks or in the bargain bin, because I think $5 is a generous estimation of their value.

I think you really need to accept that the first copies of a book are going to be priced for the "I don't care, I want it now. NOW! Mommy! NOOOOOWWW!" market. If you can't afford it (or are not willing to pay), wait. There are books that I am, in all seriousness, waiting to see either as second hand paperbacks or in the bargain bin, because I think $5 is a generous estimation of their value.

oh, of course. that won't change anytime soon. it's not so much the practice itself, as the idea of the ebook being priced basically the same as the first release edition. as i mentioned earlier, since there are significantly fewer costs involved in publishing / selling ebooks, i consider that their price should be no more than half that of a paperbook. *even* when they are new. possibly slightly higher at the beginning, to allow for the publishers' taking full advantage of the people who cannot possibly wait, but with a significant reduction compared to paper nonetheless.

actually, currently, there are very few books i will buy in the expensive "first release" format. i buy most of my books in pocket format, or used, or get them at the library. i couldn't possibly afford to buy all of them at 20€ each. this isn't a huge problem for me since the majority of what i read is pretty old anyway, it's usually more a problem of tracking down the last remaining copy in print :rolleyes:. ebooks make this easier as well, luckily.

There are also people like me, that do not want the format hardcover but prefer paperback. This is not a cost issue but a preference issue and everytime a new book comes out, I need to wait a year for my format of choice to come out.

Or I bite the bullet and buy the huge hardcovers that are impractical to read and carry. For a premium.

IMHO, it seems to me that expecting all books to be available in all formats is asking a lot from publishers. It would be an inventory nightmare! Such a system would practically require book orders to be processed individually to meet the desires of purchasers, which would be labor-intensive and cause the price of books in any format to skyrocket.

Not that I wouldn't personally love to have any book I desired in any format I wished for... ;-)

DixieGal

There are also people like me, that do not want the format hardcover but prefer paperback. This is not a cost issue but a preference issue and everytime a new book comes out, I need to wait a year for my format of choice to come out.

Or I bite the bullet and buy the huge hardcovers that are impractical to read and carry. For a premium.

yes, actually i feel the same way for almost all books, especially since a lot of my reading is done in bed and in the métro. hardcover books are almost always too large and heavy to carry in my bag for the 30 minute ride in the métro, and they are often rather cumbersome and uncomfortable to hold in bed as well. there are rare cases where i can imagine preferring a hard cover, but as i say, they are rare.

and it *is* really annoying to always have to wait a year when there is a book i want to read... that's another one of the things that interests me with ebooks, really.

IMHO, it seems to me that expecting all books to be available in all formats is asking a lot from publishers. It would be an inventory nightmare! Such a system would practically require book orders to be processed individually to meet the desires of purchasers, which would be labor-intensive and cause the price of books in any format to skyrocket.

Not that I wouldn't personally love to have any book I desired in any format I wished for... ;-)

DixieGal

There's not that many formats though...

They have to have their own internal format. That's the basic one that they'll send to the printers etc.

From that to an eBook I would imagine is, well, 5 minutes work.

And after that there's paperback or hardback. If they don't want a hardback they don't have to have one. Not all books come out on hardback, and there's no real reason to change that.

And then there's audio books, again not all books come out in audio format. Generally audio formats trail paper formats, although there are exceptions for very popular books.

I'm not suggesting that publishers make more formats available, I'm suggesting they charge us for the content, and then charge us a second time for the costs (and only the costs) of our particular form of delivery.

IMHO, it seems to me that expecting all books to be available in all formats is asking a lot from publishers. It would be an inventory nightmare! Such a system would practically require book orders to be processed individually to meet the desires of purchasers, which would be labor-intensive and cause the price of books in any format to skyrocket.

Not that I wouldn't personally love to have any book I desired in any format I wished for... ;-)

DixieGal

i don't know enough about the industry to really address that, but isn't that basically what Print on Demand does ? the way i see this model working is that probably at the very beginning they would print a certain number of books (but less than they do now, if they are really pulping 40% :smack:), which can be sold through traditional bookstores. however at the same time, the ebook is available (content only) for an appropriately lower price. perhaps they will want to maintain the system of "expensive hardcover first, cheap paperback later" (i can't see them giving that up) in which case i assume the ebook would also have to be somewhat more expensive when first released.

after the stock has been depleted, depending on the demand, they could either print another (small) run, or publish the paperback on the same principle, or switch exclusively to a POD system which would be more or less like being able to create your own custom format (i don't know how POD works now, and if you can order hardcover / softcover, but if you can't i think it must be possible to put that in place).

what would be nice would be to make the paperback available from the beginning as well, even if only through POD, however as much as that would please some people (probably a lot, actually), i doubt publishers would accept that.

If they're going to charge 20 for a hardback, then charge 19 for a paperback. And then 12 months later when they would normally launch the paperback cut the prices back.

But we're getting into probably too much detail and well away from the original topic now :)

I think initial releases of some books being hard cover only is to justify selling them for $20-$25 rather than the $8-$12 a new paper back cost. I very much doubt it cost twice as much to product a hard cover.

I certainly think the price of a book should be, similar to digital movies, based on how long it has been released. "Back catalog" as they call it generally sells for less than new releases. The major advantage with "Back Catalog" of ebooks is that there really is nothing to stock. I think the "no stock cost" and "low shipping cost" and "low duplication cost" of ebooks are really lost on publishers. At lot of people would still pay $8-$10 for an ebook which is much more profitable to a publisher than selling an $8 paper back book due to the above mentioned eliminated costs.

Another advantage of the ebook wave to the publisher is that they can sell the books direct, via the web and cut out the middleman. I am pretty sure B&N and Borders take a cut of all the prices. The "retail" price is not the "price" the publisher gets from the book. Actually, all the middlemen go away, the printer, the warehouse, the distributor, the shipper, etc. Also, stock management becomes simple... a server farm and a nice SAN. Of course, copies are made on demand (POD?) as they are purchased.

BOb

I think initial releases of some books being hard cover only is to justify selling them for $20-$25 rather than the $8-$12 a new paper back cost. I very much doubt it cost twice as much to product a hard cover.

I certainly think the price of a book should be, similar to digital movies, based on how long it has been released. "Back catalog" as they call it generally sells for less than new releases. The major advantage with "Back Catalog" of ebooks is that there really is nothing to stock. I think the "no stock cost" and "low shipping cost" and "low duplication cost" of ebooks are really lost on publishers. At lot of people would still pay $8-$10 for an ebook which is much more profitable to a publisher than selling an $8 paper back book due to the above mentioned eliminated costs.

Another advantage of the ebook wave to the publisher is that they can sell the books direct, via the web and cut out the middleman. I am pretty sure B&N and Borders take a cut of all the prices. The "retail" price is not the "price" the publisher gets from the book. Actually, all the middlemen go away, the printer, the warehouse, the distributor, the shipper, etc. Also, stock management becomes simple... a server farm and a nice SAN. Of course, copies are made on demand (POD?) as they are purchased.

BOb

i know, it all seems so obvious, doesn't it ? :)

...They have to have their own internal format.
...
I'm not suggesting that publishers make more formats available, I'm suggesting they charge us for the content, and then charge us a second time for the costs (and only the costs) of our particular form of delivery.

I agree completely. I'm going through digitizing a few books that I read when I was younger, and are currently out of print. If publishers follow your model, they can sell the physical copies, and then add a surcharge for a 'format shift' of the content. Doing it yourself is lots of work.

By the way, the books I'm converting are the 'Skaith' books by Leigh Brackett. There's a character in there with the same name as your screen name. Coincidence?

- Ed

I'd be surprised to see audio books included in the hardcover, as there are extra expenses involved in producing them (voice talent, sound engineering, etc.) but the rest sounds great. :) I'm a big believer in paying for the content license, rather than having that inseparably bundled with the format. This reminds me of how software sales have gone lately, where you can download for one price or pay extra for a CDROM and/or box and/or printed documentation. As displays get better and more portable, I think we're going to start to see a lot of this for books.

Regarding hardcover vs. paperback production costs, don't forget the binding. Stitching signatures of pages together is more expensive than gluing a stack of pages into the spine, and lasts longer, too. But not everyone wants to pay for it, which is why we have paperbacks in the first place.

I agree completely. I'm going through digitizing a few books that I read when I was younger, and are currently out of print. If publishers follow your model, they can sell the physical copies, and then add a surcharge for a 'format shift' of the content. Doing it yourself is lots of work.

By the way, the books I'm converting are the 'Skaith' books by Leigh Brackett. There's a character in there with the same name as your screen name. Coincidence?

- Ed

It's sort of not. I've not read those books (are they worthwhile?). I took the name from a very old computer game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master_%28video_game%29) I spent a lot of time playing around 20 years ago. I suspect the Skaith novels are where the name may have been nicked from.

When I do signings, I like to put a CD-ROM version of the book inside. As Neil points out in the quote at the top, it's one way to grow the eBook market and attract people who otherwise might not ever try eBooks.

Unfortunately, my experiments with author-signed eBooks have not (yet) been completely successful. Still, I'm always looking to improve this.

Rob Preece
Publisher, www.BooksForABuck.com

I agree completely. I'm going through digitizing a few books that I read when I was younger, and are currently out of print. If publishers follow your model, they can sell the physical copies, and then add a surcharge for a 'format shift' of the content. Doing it yourself is lots of work.

By the way, the books I'm converting are the 'Skaith' books by Leigh Brackett. There's a character in there with the same name as your screen name. Coincidence?

- Ed
Why convert the Skaith books... just buy them from Baen's Webscriptions service here (http://www.webscriptions.net/p-804-the-eric-john-stark-saga.aspx), already converted and formatted for you. Twenty bucks for the entire package.

Xenophon

Another problem with hardbacks is that they are hard to get rid of. There are a lot of used bookstores that don't like taking hardbacks and some that don't accept them at all.

I tend to get hardbacks if I really like the books or if I plan on getting it signed by the author. Course, now I'm big on getting a lot of the books off the shelves because I'm out of room.

Jason

Another problem with hardbacks is that they are hard to get rid of. There are a lot of used bookstores that don't like taking hardbacks and some that don't accept them at all.

I tend to get hardbacks if I really like the books or if I plan on getting it signed by the author. Course, now I'm big on getting a lot of the books off the shelves because I'm out of room.

Jason

i don't even try to sell my books anymore ; i find that no-one will pay very much for them, and the time it takes me to cart the heavy bag all the way to the shop is worth more to me than the few euros i might get. instead i just give them away, either to the library (for their collection, or to add to the free "book exchange" they hold every few months), or to a café which has an informal lending library. or to friends, obviously, if they want them. this is another reason why i am hoping to buy mainly ebooks from now on.

however, it is true that most of the books i would want to get rid of (and could therefore sell) are paperbacks which were not very expensive to begin with ; like you, i only buy a hardcover on very rare occasions.

i did not know that used bookstores don't like to buy hardcovers. i would have thought they would be *more* interested in them, on the contrary.

Why convert the Skaith books... just buy them from Baen's Webscriptions service here (http://www.webscriptions.net/p-804-the-eric-john-stark-saga.aspx), already converted and formatted for you. Twenty bucks for the entire package.

Xenophon

THANKS...I missed the set on Webscriptions...not now...just nabbed them! I love Baen!!

I think they are onto something here. How good would this be: You go to a bookstore (e.g. Dymocks down here), browse books, find the one you want, go to the register and say "I'd like this in e-book format please". They print out a little docket with your code which you then pay for and use to download your book ...
And you save a couple of trees over in Indonesia at the same! Instant karma points :)

How good would this be: You go to a bookstore (e.g. Dymocks down here), browse books, find the one you want, go to the register and say "I'd like this in e-book format please".

Dymocks main shop in Sydney does a similar thing in places, but it's a bit labour intensive - the SF staff mark books that are available as ebooks. I whined about it and the ebook selling dude said they were trying to get manglement approval on the basis that it would help sell more iLiad's (which Dymocks also sell). Unfortunately I think manglement are following the number of "but ebooks are too expensive if I buy them from you" comments rather than just the $900 retail price of the iLiad.

Dymocks is a shocking seller of ebooks, they don't seem to realise that their competition is "anything on the internet" not "the pbookshop across the road". All my purchases so far have been from US bookshops.

uhm, I can see how the ebook copy being given away with a pbook would be a neat bonus offering where everybody profits and no extra costs are involved.

But the audiobook really takes a larger advance-investment for the costs of the recording studio, the speaker and the post production/mastering/etc.

uhm, I can see how the ebook copy being given away with a pbook would be a neat bonus offering where everybody profits and no extra costs are involved.

But the audiobook really takes a larger advance-investment for the costs of the recording studio, the speaker and the post production/mastering/etc.

yes of course, that would not really be a viable system. however the article was talking only about the ebook, not the audio books, and then we began to talk about the idea of separating the content from the container, so you would buy the content for a fixed priced (delivered as an ebook, the cheapest container to make) and then add a supplement if you wanted a more cost-intensive container such as paper book or audio book, and even possibly choose between audio files downloaded to your hard drive or (for another small supplement) presented as an audio cd. the idea is to find a way to charge a faire price for everyone, depending on the form the content is sold in. (ie hardcover more expensive than paperback which is more expensive than digital).

I talked with a guy a few months ago who had 10k copies of his first book printed himself. They cost $2 each. Paperbacks are even cheaper ~$1. The publishing companies make their money off the hardbacks and then print the low cost paperbacks to increase the authors popularity so that the next book has a larger hardback audience. Barnes and Noble for instance receives paperbacks at a wholesale cost of ~$5 dollars. That's a 4 dollar profit margin vs a ~13 dollar margin or so for hardbacks. For new authors most publishing companies aim to sell 10k hardbacks to recoup the advance and meager advertising dollars.

i don't even try to sell my books anymore ; i find that no-one will pay very much for them, and the time it takes me to cart the heavy bag all the way to the shop is worth more to me than the few euros i might get. instead i just give them away, either to the library (for their collection, or to add to the free "book exchange" they hold every few months), or to a café which has an informal lending library. or to friends, obviously, if they want them. this is another reason why i am hoping to buy mainly ebooks from now on.

While it isn't a huge amount, usually they are worth more if you take a credit at a used book store. That's where the value of any "used" store comes in, since a lot of the times the savings aren't that great, but if you can get a discount over that price by trading in a bunch of books you aren't going to read again anyways, it starts to be more worth it.

i did not know that used bookstores don't like to buy hardcovers. i would have thought they would be *more* interested in them, on the contrary.

I suspect that they don't move for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread: they tend to be bulky and not as portable as a paperback. There are only a few places around my area that will even think about taking fiction hardbacks, and one of those wouldn't accept any that had damaged cover sleaves. That is also the reason why you see a lot of discount book sellers with a lot of overstock hardbacks for cheap, because there isn't much of a secondary market. The main reason why I'd want a book in hardback is if I'm planning on keeping it a long time, since they hold up better than paperbacks, or if I'm getting the author to sign it.

Jason

Why convert the Skaith books... just buy them from Baen's Webscriptions service here (http://www.webscriptions.net/p-804-the-eric-john-stark-saga.aspx), already converted and formatted for you. Twenty bucks for the entire package.

Xenophon

Absolutely. I've been buying quite a few ebooks from Baen, they're one of my favorite publishers. When I started, they weren't available yet, and this is more to see what's involved & what the challenges are.

The biggest issue that I see doing a manual conversion is paragraph flow. OCR has gotten pretty good, and I'm not seeing anywhere near the number of errors that I thought I would.

@Halk, I do recommend these books. Leigh Brackett wrote the script for the first Star Wars movie before she died, it was her last work. I first read these books as a child, but have never been able to find coppies again. A couple of years ago, I stumbled on in at Powell's Books & I couldn't resist.

- Ed

...and then we began to talk about the idea of separating the content from the container, so you would buy the content for a fixed priced (delivered as an ebook, the cheapest container to make) and then add a supplement if you wanted a more cost-intensive container such as paper book or audio book...

I do like this "concept" but don't agree that an audio book is a different "container". The text in an eBook, Paperback, Hardback is all the same delivered slightly differently. The "content" can be shifted from one to the other with basic technology.

However, an audi book is different content. It is a recording of a performance (Granted of someone reading the text content). Now, I could see them offering a free eBook with a Audiobook purchase... but the other way around I can't see it.

BOb

I do like this "concept" but don't agree that an audio book is a different "container". The text in an eBook, Paperback, Hardback is all the same delivered slightly differently. The "content" can be shifted from one to the other with basic technology.

However, an audi book is different content. It is a recording of a performance (Granted of someone reading the text content). Now, I could see them offering a free eBook with a Audiobook purchase... but the other way around I can't see it.

BOb

ok that's a valid point, but nobody is actually talking about offering a free audio book with *anything*... i don't know where this idea came from.

ok that's a valid point, but nobody is actually talking about offering a free audio book with *anything*... i don't know where this idea came from.
It came from the quote in the first post.

It came from the quote in the first post.
oh, sorry :o i got so caught up in the new publishing model we were happily creating amongst ourselves i forgot there was originally an *article*.... (i even read this article, at the beginning. how embarrassing.)

but in that case, yes, i completely agree with everyone who thinks free audio books with hardcover purchase might be a little ambitious. :rolleyes:

but in that case, yes, i completely agree with everyone who thinks free audio books with hardcover purchase might be a little ambitious. :rolleyes:Unless of course the audio was computer generated direct from the text. Sure it isn't nearly as good as a performance by a human reader, but if it were free or nearly free, it might just be tolerable in a car.

Unless of course the audio was computer generated direct from the text. Sure it isn't nearly as good as a performance by a human reader, but if it were free or nearly free, it might just be tolerable in a car.

hmm... honestly i doubt that i would want a computer-read audio book if you paid me to take it. i have a friend who is blind ; he has voice synthesizing software on his computer to help him use it, which will read any text on the screen to him. it lets him get work done that he otherwise could not do, but it's certainly not anything i would want to listen to for any kind of pleasure or entertainment (except sometimes we make fun of it when it pronounces a word in an odd way, does that count ?), and i can't think of *anything* less capable of conveying emotion or ambiance.

unless they have made some really big advances in computer reading programs that i don't know about, which of course is completely possible.

unless they have made some really big advances in computer reading programs that i don't know about, which of course is completely possible. There have been some advances. Check TTS in the wiki for some details.

Dale

It came from the quote in the first post.

There is a price for the audio book container.

While a paperback is paper and setting up a printing press, an audio book is hiring a voice actor, and paying them to read the book out. It's just a cost of the container.

It is, of course, different for audio books because there's almost no marginal costs, and significant setup costs, as opposed to paper.

And free with a hardback was just a suggestion on how to charge a relatively large price when the book is released. I don't think it's reasonable to expect free audio books.

There is a price for the audio book container.

While a paperback is paper and setting up a printing press, an audio book is hiring a voice actor, and paying them to read the book out. It's just a cost of the container.

It is, of course, different for audio books because there's almost no marginal costs, and significant setup costs, as opposed to paper.

And free with a hardback was just a suggestion on how to charge a relatively large price when the book is released. I don't think it's reasonable to expect free audio books.

Audio books are a production. There is an editor merging sessions and handling redos and production people putting together the audio. In some cases there is even music added. The book has to be split between media objects since it seldom fits on one. A package has to be designed. How can you say there is no production costs for audio.

Dale

This whole notion of offering the ebook (& poss audio book, though as I have invested in an ereader its not so important to me ;)) at the sametime as the paper version is an interesting angle which to adds value to what we as consumers get and more importantly for us (ebook readers) get publicity/exposure for the format helping to increase the availability of ebooks. Additionally it could increase the market and get people into the shops/stores rather than online! Win Win situation to me!

Apologisies if state the obvious or what others have said, come into the thread late! :( Thought i'd add my five penith!

Audio books are a production. There is an editor merging sessions and handling redos and production people putting together the audio. In some cases there is even music added. The book has to be split between media objects since it seldom fits on one. A package has to be designed. How can you say there is no production costs for audio.

Dale

I didn't?

i saw that post... i wish more authors were like neil gaiman.

*swoon*