I wrote and asked Bookeen support what the status of the upgrade was, and got a reply about 2 minutes later (!) as follows:


The software upgrade will be available very soon. It should be available on the first week of April.
We will announce it on the blog and we will add a support link on our
website.

Best regards,
Bookeen Support Team

Not sure if this is worth to be put on the front-page since we saw mails like that with various advertised release dates from bookeen over the past few months :-).

Anyway. Good luck to all of us that they keep their date this time.

It's just as worth being on the frontpage then Amazon's CEO saying they might possibly maybe get enough stock to someday sometime soonish to fill the backorders for the Kindle. :rofl:

I wrote and asked Bookeen support what the status of the upgrade was, and got a reply about 2 minutes later (!) as follows:

Oh, Bother! I was so looking forward to a firmware update. Now I'm depressed; I'll have to go to the 'fridge and scarf down a ton of 'comfort food' to console myself. :(

Drat you, Bookeen! Drat you to Heck!

Derek

Oh, Bother! I was so looking forward to a firmware update. Now I'm depressed; I'll have to go to the 'fridge and scarf down a ton of 'comfort food' to console myself. :(

Drat you, Bookeen! Drat you to Heck!

Derek
Just remember, you cannot blame Bookeen if you get fat.

:smack: Coulda had a V8.

Just remember, you cannot blame Bookeen if you get fat.

:smack: Coulda had a V8.


Sorry? WHAT did you say?!? I cannot blame Bookeen!?! *I* live in sunny (well, more like hazy right this minute), beautiful, liberal, litigious California! We can blame, sue and demand compensation from *ALL* the deep-pockets down the line of causality! :D :D :D

(Not that I would of course. I may live here, but I'm a Libertarian and not one of those sue-at-the-drop-of-a-hat types. :D )

Derek

Anyway. Good luck to all of us that they keep their date this time.

That's the problem with announced dates.

I'd just as soon they release it when it is ready, and not push it out the door to meet a deadline.

So we can probably expect it around the end of April.

These will be 'my' first upgrade :)
Gen3 came on friday.

For anyone that's considering buying a Cybook and is a little put off by the "GIV US FIRMWARE NOOOOWWWW!", then please bear in mind that generally speaking it's not an absolute necessity. The Cybook works fine at the moment, the firmware is for extra functionality and polish - and some minor bugs.

It's not like we're all sitting here with useless devices waiting for Bookeen to fix em.

Thanks to ProfJulie, I can at least read library ebooks. I had considered waiting for the update. Glad now that I didn't.:book2:

It's not like we're all sitting here with useless devices waiting for Bookeen to fix em.

Perfectly useful but the navigation is painfully slow if you have 100 or more books on it and I am becoming more and more irritated with the lack of page number or lack of a sense how much is left of a short story or a novel.

A just read a story in _a Logic Names Joe_ and the lack of page number was really irritating and I would also like page number in the TOC but that is probably impossible so i assume you have to jump to the next story to see how much you have left to read in the current story.

Perfectly useful but the navigation is painfully slow if you have 100 or more books on it and I am becoming more and more irritated with the lack of page number or lack of a sense how much is left of a short story or a novel.

A just read a story in _a Logic Names Joe_ and the lack of page number was really irritating and I would also like page number in the TOC but that is probably impossible so i assume you have to jump to the next story to see how much you have left to read in the current story.

Page numbers in an inline HTML TOC ? You'd need CSS3 for this.

Page numbers in an inline HTML TOC ? You'd need CSS3 for this.

Or a special MobiPocket format tag that are supported by the reader.

Thanks HarryT for following up with Bookeen and posting their response.

I think Bookeen must be close to final with this update and I hope the few extra days will result in a great update. Since I can read my library books now, I can wait. My Cybook is working quite well.

For anyone that's considering buying a Cybook and is a little put off by the "GIV US FIRMWARE NOOOOWWWW!", then please bear in mind that generally speaking it's not an absolute necessity. The Cybook works fine at the moment, the firmware is for extra functionality and polish - and some minor bugs.

It's not like we're all sitting here with useless devices waiting for Bookeen to fix em.

I agree. But, it would be nice to be able to use the "Trash Can" button when I'm done with book.

The Cybook has been rather interesting to use with my MacBook; I can drop and play both DRM'd and home grown mobipocket books. However, I'm having issues with Parallels and XP Pro SP2. Mobipocket does not want to
recognize the Cybook.

Suggestions?

Howard

Does anyone know, is this update supposed to fix the bookmarking bug? More times than not my Cybook does not take me back to the right spot in the book I am reading. This is incredibly annoying on books that don't have a TOC.

Does anyone know, is this update supposed to fix the bookmarking bug? More times than not my Cybook does not take me back to the right spot in the book I am reading. This is incredibly annoying on books that don't have a TOC.

I fixed this issue on my Cybook by not syncing books from the computer to the Cybook. I haven't encountered the bookmark problem again since I started copying my books directly to my storage card.

Does anyone know what features have been added or updated?

No. Wait and see - it's all part of the excitement! It would take all the fun out of it if we knew in advance what we were getting :).

I fixed this issue on my Cybook by not syncing books from the computer to the Cybook. I haven't encountered the bookmark problem again since I started copying my books directly to my storage card.

That bookmark bug is a funny one. I never had any trouble with it. I have my books in the main memory. But, indeed, I simply copy them there with the explorer.

It may be due to a faulty SD card. People have reported that using a different SD card solves the problem for them. I've never experienced it either.

Or a special MobiPocket format tag that are supported by the reader.

Those "special" tag is one of the wost thing about this format. I wish I could use the CSS page-break property instead of the Mobipocket page break for example.

For anyone that's considering buying a Cybook and is a little put off by the "GIV US FIRMWARE NOOOOWWWW!", then please bear in mind that generally speaking it's not an absolute necessity. The Cybook works fine at the moment, the firmware is for extra functionality and polish - and some minor bugs.

It's not like we're all sitting here with useless devices waiting for Bookeen to fix em.

Are you sure about it?
You know, after reading this forum for more than one year I grew to be a bit sceptical about some things.
For example:
HarryT was all over the moon about CyBook Gen3 dictionary support and how wonderful and useful thing it is and how cool and what a major drawback it is on a part of Sony not to support dictionaries.
Guess what I learned just a week ago in one of his comments? That until recently it had a small bug, really almost negligible. Nothing really serious, or to worry about - CyBook Gen3 would lock up after 3-4 word lookups in a dictionary.

So, IMHO polishing bugs is a lot more important than adding new features, although it is a lot better not to have bugs at all.

HarryT was all over the moon about CyBook Gen3 dictionary support and how wonderful and useful thing it is and how cool and what a major drawback it is on a part of Sony not to support dictionaries.
Guess what I learned just a week ago in one of his comments? That until recently it had a small bug, really almost negligible. Nothing really serious, or to worry about - CyBook Gen3 would lock up after 3-4 word lookups in a dictionary.


A bug which they've now fixed. Even WITH the bug, though, it was still a damned useful feature; a dictionary lookup which occasionally doesn't work is better than no dictionary lookup at all :).

I just ordered a Cybook, but I have to say that the amount of enthousiasm the announcement of a soon to be firmware update really is kinda telling about the machine. Most reviews comment on the "beta"-feel of the software on it, and this whole thread seems to underline that feeling.

Excitement! Finally! maybe now the product we paid a lot of money for will come out of beta! yeah!

A bug which they've now fixed. Even WITH the bug, though, it was still a damned useful feature; a dictionary lookup which occasionally doesn't work is better than no dictionary lookup at all :).

As the saying goes: to each its own.

If I paid £280 for a gadget and one of its the most important features would lock my reader every 3-4 words, I would go balistic! It is not as you say now: dictionary lookup ocasionally does not work - it locks up reader, at least that is what you said before. Lock up! Completely destroying a reading session atmosphere.

So, no. Thank you very much. I prefer to use a small encarta dictionary and have a non-bugged reader.

Let alone, that I would expect to hear about such bug from the moment it was discovered...but I am too honest and not a businessman though.

As the saying goes: to each its own.

If I paid £280 for a gadget and one of its the most important features would lock my reader every 3-4 words, I would go balistic! It is not as you say now: dictionary lookup ocasionally does not work - it locks up reader, at least that is what you said before. Lock up! Completely destroying a reading session atmosphere.


I am one of the first people who got the Cybook. So I'm working with the first version of the software and I never ever had any problems with my dictionary.

The only thing I need from the software update would be user definable buttons and perhaps a better folder support.

I am one of the first people who got the Cybook. So I'm working with the first version of the software and I never ever had any problems with my dictionary.

Well, HarryT said he had.
It is not a figment of my imagination :D

Well, HarryT said he had.
It is not a figment of my imagination :D

It happened with some dictionaries but not others.

I just ordered a Cybook, but I have to say that the amount of enthousiasm the announcement of a soon to be firmware update really is kinda telling about the machine. Most reviews comment on the "beta"-feel of the software on it, and this whole thread seems to underline that feeling.

Excitement! Finally! maybe now the product we paid a lot of money for will come out of beta! yeah!I don't think that's the case. The software does not feel like it's in beta status, it only has some minor problems (IMHO), like bad library navigation and lack of page numbers.

I don't think that's the case. The software does not feel like it's in beta status, it only hase some minor problems (IMHO), like bad library navigation and lack of page numbers.

The problem her is that there is two versions of the software. The first one had some show stopping bugs. The unannounced firmware update and also the firmware shipped in new devices seems to fix most of these issues but not all.

It happened with some dictionaries but not others.

So the problem is in the dictionary not in the reader. But it is true, the reader should not stop working when in encounters a problem..

So the problem is in the dictionary not in the reader. But it is true, the reader should not stop working when in encounters a problem..

There is no reason to think the problem is in the dictionary. If I would bet money I would guess it is in the reader. Sounds like the reader does not handle some cases properly. I do not believe the reader is tested as much as the dictionary.

I'm sure they tested the reader with some dictionaries, at least. Presumably, as you say, there was something in those particular dictionaries which the reader didn't handle correctly, resulting in a hangup or a reboot. From the sound of it, there's still something which it doesn't like in the Collins dictionary, resulting in a failure to find certain words.

I don't think that's the case. The software does not feel like it's in beta status, it only has some minor problems (IMHO), like bad library navigation and lack of page numbers.

Isn't the lack of page numbers rather an major annoyance though? It's the one thing that stops me from getting a Cybook over a Sony...

Any chance a firmware update will fix that?

I love my Cybook, and I agree with Rambler that the lack of page numbers are quite annoying

Isn't the lack of page numbers rather an major annoyance though? It's the one thing that stops me from getting a Cybook over a Sony...

Any chance a firmware update will fix that?

Yes I would like to have page numbers on my Cybook but it was even more annoying on my Sony that the page numbers for bookmarks were related to the font size so sometimes I wasn't sure which came first. This may have been unique to me since as the day goes on, my eye sight worsens and I increase the font size.

I liked my Sony. I love my Cybook.

Isn't the lack of page numbers rather an major annoyance though?

It depends on the person. I couldn'd care less. I have absolute no use for pagenumbers, it is a leftover from p-books. In e-books they change all the time when you modify font size of font type. The progress bar is good enough for me.

Isn't the lack of page numbers rather an major annoyance though? It's the one thing that stops me from getting a Cybook over a Sony...

Any chance a firmware update will fix that?

I really couldn't give a damn about them myself. There is a progress bar which shows you how far through the book you are, and you can also find out the total number of pages in the book (although this could be made a little easier to get at). Remember that you can load any font you wish onto the Gen3 (unlike the Sony), and view it at any of 12 different sizes. The page number would change with every combination of font and size - ie my page 100 wouldn't be the same as your page 100 in a given book.

I really couldn't give a damn about them myself. There is a progress bar which shows you how far through the book you are, and you can also find out the total number of pages in the book (although this could be made a little easier to get at)

The progress bar does not work for short stories in a collection. And since you cannot see the current page number it is very hard to get a feeling of how long the short story is. For me this is a major annoyance and not knowing the length makes the reading experience worse.

The progress bar does not seem to be reliable always. It does not always start at zero.

I just ordered a Cybook, but I have to say that the amount of enthousiasm the announcement of a soon to be firmware update really is kinda telling about the machine. Most reviews comment on the "beta"-feel of the software on it, and this whole thread seems to underline that feeling.

I think you're overstating that case a bit. Many of us are quite happy with the Gen 3 in its current state. I find that it performs its core functions very well.

The only thing I am missing, and that I would love to see in an upgrade ASAP, is folder support (or even better, implementation of "reading lists" as in the Mobipocket desktop/PDA software).

Isn't the lack of page numbers rather an major annoyance though?

Not at all. The progress bar tells me all I need to know.

Remember that you can load any font you wish onto the Gen3 (unlike the Sony), and view it at any of 12 different sizes. The page number would change with every combination of font and size - ie my page 100 wouldn't be the same as your page 100 in a given book.

I'd definitely like page numbers - my CyBook often forgets where it was when it's powered up, and bookmarks often disappear.
If I knew what the page number had been, it'd make it easier to find where I'd got to. (I was reading a 1000+ page novel recently, and it was a nightmare trying to home in on where I'd left off :angry:).
The fact that page numbers would alter with format isn't a problem , since I wouldn't be changing the format - so page numbers should stay consistent (more or less).

People can be "quite happy" with beta software as well. But when people are this excited about a new firmware, one can only wonder what exactly was wrong with the older one. As I said, I ordered one, and am planning to be very happy with it.

Having to upgrade software is one thing. But needing to upgrade hardware people paid 350 euros for is another. Obviously the first customers should have gotten this firmware to begin with. Actually the first customers should have gotten the firmware that will give us proper use of folders.

Most of us are just early adopters who don't mind to upgrade firmware on hardware or don't mind the occassional bug. As such we're cutting the Cybook a lot of slack. Also the other ereaders have problems of their own. As such I think the Cybook still is the best choice for most people wanting an ereader.

Anyway, I'll drop the negativity and share in the joy of anticipating the swift release of and upgrade to our machines. Now our Cybooks will be even better!
Hehe that doesn't sound very convincing, does it? But I genuinely am happy that they're still working on bettering the Cybook.

I wonder how much they are working on the software in term of hours per week. I get the feeling that if the system was open with an SDK we would have got a very good system now since the man hour people would have spent on this would have been a lot more than what Bookeen can afford to spend on it.

Well, you can always help in porting OpenInkpot :)

Having to upgrade software is one thing. But needing to upgrade hardware people paid 350 euros for is another. Obviously the first customers should have gotten this firmware to begin with.

And this view is based on how much practical use of the Gen3, exactly?

Really, with respect, I don't think you're in any position to disagree with the views of those of us who've been quite happily using the Gen3 for close to 6 months now. The current firmware is perfectly usable as it is. It is definitely NOT "beta" software in any way whatsoever.

As the saying goes: to each its own.

If I paid £280 for a gadget and one of its the most important features would lock my reader every 3-4 words, I would go balistic! It is not as you say now: dictionary lookup ocasionally does not work - it locks up reader, at least that is what you said before. Lock up! Completely destroying a reading session atmosphere.

So, no. Thank you very much. I prefer to use a small encarta dictionary and have a non-bugged reader.

Let alone, that I would expect to hear about such bug from the moment it was discovered...but I am too honest and not a businessman though.

I've used two different dictionaries on my Cybook ever since I got it in December and I look words up regularly. I've never experience any kind of hang ups or any other kind of issue with my dictionary usage. I think this must have been fixed a while ago or it was only an occasional quirk for a few people that has since been resolve.

The problem her is that there is two versions of the software. The first one had some show stopping bugs. The unannounced firmware update and also the firmware shipped in new devices seems to fix most of these issues but not all.

"show stopping bugs"? Really? I think not. The few bugs I encountered never stopped the show for me.....and never made me rethink my selection of the Cybook.

Have you got firmware v538, Julie? If so, you don't have the hang/reboot bug.

Have you got firmware v538, Julie? If so, you don't have the hang/reboot bug.

I only recently installed that version. I had the earlier version when I first got the Cybook in December.

Although I did have the bug with my Chambers dictionary (but I know that many other dictionaries worked fine), I didn't regard it as a "show stopper" either. It was a minor irritation, no more. Perhaps I'm just a tolerant person :).

Isn't the lack of page numbers rather an major annoyance though? It's the one thing that stops me from getting a Cybook over a Sony...

Any chance a firmware update will fix that?

The lack of page numbers drives me crazy! The Mobipocket Reader software has page numbers and you can use multiple fonts/sizes.:bookworm:

Johnny

I'd definitely like page numbers - my CyBook often forgets where it was when it's powered up, and bookmarks often disappear.
If I knew what the page number had been, it'd make it easier to find where I'd got to. (I was reading a 1000+ page novel recently, and it was a nightmare trying to home in on where I'd left off :angry:).
The fact that page numbers would alter with format isn't a problem , since I wouldn't be changing the format - so page numbers should stay consistent (more or less).
But would you actually take the time to look at the page number when you stopped reading and then be able to actually remember the page number when you wanted to continue? I have page numbers with my 505 and I have no idea what books are at what page numbers other then the ones I've not yet started to read.

The fact that page numbers would alter with format isn't a problem , since I wouldn't be changing the format - so page numbers should stay consistent (more or less).

I do, you see, so they'd be pretty useless to me. I constantly change the font size to suit lighting conditions, how tired I'm feeling, etc.

I do, you see, so they'd be pretty useless to me. I constantly change the font size to suit lighting conditions, how tired I'm feeling, etc.

ditto

This whole page number controversy is a hilarious. People, when you get a pBook you find multiple pages, so each one is assigned a number. When you get Cybook you get *EXACTLY* one page - the display - so no point dislpay page 1 of 1. Cybook is just another manifestation on your browser. Think of it as a digital printing press. Instead of a single book version you can produce any number of versions by changing attributes such as font type and size. Therefore just as browsers don't have page numbers so Cybook doesn't either. Instead it has a scroll/progress bar. Again, for the same reason why scroll bar is superior in a borwser it is also better in Cybook. The only software that actually does have page numbers is the one which is designed to produce output for physical pages, such as Word.

If I am really keen on seeing that stupid numbers (which doesn't happen very often) then I simly use the "Goto page" command that displays current page and total number of pages for current settings.

As for dictionary lookup ....
Frankly I had mine crash on bigger and more coplex PDF files. Not to mention HTML which I given up on. Of course it will crash on some things, being V1. What do you expect????? If you want a polished produce everyone knows *NOT* to get V1. The question is if the device is sufficiently functional and its core functions are reasonably trouble free. Thus far based on our experience (actual Cybook users) we are fairly happy.

That being said, we are all looking forward to an update. I just wonder if the update itself has serious flaws will it be easy to back out, to remove it?

That being said, we are all looking forward to an update. I just wonder if the update itself has serious flaws will it be easy to back out, to remove it?

If you have a copy of the v538 firmware file (as I do) I don't see why you shouldn't be able to go back.

If you have a copy of the v538 firmware file (as I do) I don't see why you shouldn't be able to go back.

Ummm... No. If the update firmware (which the build 538 does) has the erase-and-install setup, then you can do a full install. However, I've gone back through the updates I've received from Bookeen and most - four out of six - only had an install-changes update. The firmware was modified but not completely erased. The full-install updates tend to run more than 9MB in their zip file. The others run about 5MB.

Derek

I've used two different dictionaries on my Cybook ever since I got it in December and I look words up regularly. I've never experience any kind of hang ups or any other kind of issue with my dictionary usage. I think this must have been fixed a while ago or it was only an occasional quirk for a few people that has since been resolve.

Neither have I had hangups with 3 dictionaries. However, I do have to keep reminding myself that I'm using the Cybook and it has dictionaries, unlike my old Sony PRS-500.

But would you actually take the time to look at the page number when you stopped reading and then be able to actually remember the page number when you wanted to continue? I have page numbers with my 505 and I have no idea what books are at what page numbers other then the ones I've not yet started to read.


I only read one book at a time, so remembering the last page would be easy. The sheer frustration of having to find your place again after the CyBook forgets is a good incentive to make it a habit.
I'm not saying it'd work for everyone, but I think enough people would benefit from page numbers to make it a worthwhile option.

I only read one book at a time, so remembering the last page would be easy. The sheer frustration of having to find your place again after the CyBook forgets is a good incentive to make it a habit.
I'm not saying it'd work for everyone, but I think enough people would benefit from page numbers to make it a worthwhile option.

Isn't that what bookmarks are supposed to do?

And this view is based on how much practical use of the Gen3, exactly?


It's based on reading these forums and reading different reviews. I've never touched a Cybook, but that doesn't make my point of view wrong. Especially since it's based on the views of people who have used it.
It's obvious that you, HarryT, are a big fan of the Cybook, but even you seem thrilled about this new firmware. Why? Maybe because you know as well as I do that there are problems with older firmware. The fact that I ordered it even with knowledge of these problems shows that I have faith they can fix those and that they can be worked around.

Sorry, but you can't say there are no bugs in the older firmware. That is what they say they're gonna fix. So is it really that bad that I point out that older firmware has bugs and that I think for 350euro I don't think there should be ANY bugs, and it should at least have a working folder system. Both these points have little to nothing to do with me ever holding a cybook or not. They would be just as valid if I'd receive a model that has no problems whatsoever, because my experience doesn't mean that problems do not exist with the older firmware.

Julie,

Some users seem to have problems with bookmarks. I had 1-2 sessions when it simply stopped working. New bookmarks would not be made. I had to restart the device, hope that it would stay at the last page read (which it did) and then try bookmarks again, at which point it worked and I was fine. Recently I have had no problems. However, my sessions might be shorter.

This update we hope should fix such annoying bugs, like bookmarks not working sometimes. I can certainly see this as a cause of frustration if it were hapening a lot.

Julie,

Some users seem to have problems with bookmarks. I had 1-2 sessions when it simply stopped working. New bookmarks would not be made. I had to restart the device, hope that it would stay at the last page read (which it did) and then try bookmarks again, at which point it worked and I was fine. Recently I have had no problems. However, my sessions might be shorter.

This update we hope should fix such annoying bugs, like bookmarks not working sometimes. I can certainly see this as a cause of frustration if it were hapening a lot.

I was one of those users who had a problem with bookmarks. I resolved this issue by never syncing books to my Cybook. I copy all my books directly to my SD card and since then I have not encountered this bookmarking problem again. For ease of use, I don't store any books on the Cybooks memory, although I've been thinking about copying my dictionaries there......

...

Sorry, but you can't say there are no bugs in the older firmware. That is what they say they're gonna fix. So is it really that bad that I point out that older firmware has bugs and that I think for 350euro I don't think there should be ANY bugs, and it should at least have a working folder system. ....

Nobody claims there are no bugs in the current version. Most actual Cybook users seem to be noth bothered by them too much.

On what basis do you state that 350E ought to pay for a product with zero bugs? There are far more expensive products with version 1.0 having as much and more problems. How about that Heathrow Terminal 5. How much was that? How many bugs?

I look at this as bugs/issues that can/will be solved by a simple software update at some point, as opposed to others that won't (hardware). I have more patience and tolerance for software issues since they'll be fixed at no cost and I don't have to spend more money on another version. I just don't see those as a big deal.

Regarding having zero bugs from day 1, I cannot think of a single company that does that. Maybe Google that has a very long beta stage so they actual V1 is really good. Or Linux and similar software with a long and slower dev process that doesn't rush to V1. Otherwise all software and hardware tends to rush to V1 and has a lot of problems. So in that regard Cybook is no worse.

I was one of those users who had a problem with bookmarks. I resolved this issue by never syncing books to my Cybook. I copy all my books directly to my SD card and since then I have not encountered this bookmarking problem again. For ease of use, I don't store any books on the Cybooks memory, although I've been thinking about copying my dictionaries there......

Me too. I may have a few books hidden on SD card (prefix with a dot) which is a medium term reading list. However my library is on my computer, so my library view is no more than 2 pages. I too sync using Win explorer.

Again I am not sure what is all the fuss about. Certainly keeping a reference library of many books on this Cybook is hard. We'll need a new hardware to really improve library navigation.

It's based on reading these forums and reading different reviews. I've never touched a Cybook, but that doesn't make my point of view wrong. Especially since it's based on the views of people who have used it.
It's obvious that you, HarryT, are a big fan of the Cybook, but even you seem thrilled about this new firmware. Why? Maybe because you know as well as I do that there are problems with older firmware. The fact that I ordered it even with knowledge of these problems shows that I have faith they can fix those and that they can be worked around.

Sorry, but you can't say there are no bugs in the older firmware. That is what they say they're gonna fix. So is it really that bad that I point out that older firmware has bugs and that I think for 350euro I don't think there should be ANY bugs, and it should at least have a working folder system. Both these points have little to nothing to do with me ever holding a cybook or not. They would be just as valid if I'd receive a model that has no problems whatsoever, because my experience doesn't mean that problems do not exist with the older firmware.

When I am buying a new product, I seek out forums and information on the web to find out what could go wrong with the product. Many forums serve as arms of support to those who are encountering problems with a product. Most satisfied users don't make a point of seeking out a forum so they can post how happy and satisfied they are with a product. If you've been reading a lot of forum postings about the Cybook, you are getting a negatively biased view of it. Until you get the Cybook and see for yourself how it meets your needs, your opinion just does not carry much weight.

I am a Pocket PC enthusiast. When I first got my Cybook, I had to keep reminding myself that the Cybook is not a Pocket PC - I had to reset my expectations of this mobile device and stop myself from consciously (and unconsciously) comparing it to my Pocket PCs. Many of the complaints that I see here and on other forums are by people who have a mismatch of expectations. Pocket PC users complain about the limitations of Pocket PCs because they are comparing them to laptops; Cybook users complain about the limitations of the Cybook because they are comparing them to other mobile devices, like Pocket PCs, or because they are comparing them to books. The Cybook provides an entirely different user interface and one has to reset their expectations about it to gain a full appreciation of it. The Cybook does exactly what I got it for......it provides a comfortable and portable reading experience.

I am looking forward to Bookeen's update, not because I am unhappy with my Cybook or because the Cybook is an unstable device, but because I am looking forward to added functionality that will further my enjoyment of using the Cybook.

So is it really that bad that I point out that older firmware has bugs and that I think for 350euro I don't think there should be ANY bugs, and it should at least have a working folder system.

Dream on, little dreamer! There ain't no such animal for any price. At least not this side of heaven and I'm not so sure even there. Where there is computer hardware and software, there will always be bugs.

Also, pieter, keep in mind that many (maybe most) of us at Mobileread at techno-philes. Therefore an update to us is like mother's milk to a baby - we live for it. Think of the update as "value added" for your 350euro. More tech for your original investment.:thumbsup:

"show stopping bugs"? Really? I think not. The few bugs I encountered never stopped the show for me.....and never made me rethink my selection of the Cybook.

Some books you bought did not work. This is a show stopper since you cannot read the book.

I only read one book at a time, so remembering the last page would be easy. The sheer frustration of having to find your place again after the CyBook forgets is a good incentive to make it a habit.
I'm not saying it'd work for everyone, but I think enough people would benefit from page numbers to make it a worthwhile option.

If it were me, I would rather have them fix the bug where it doesn't remember the last page of every book automatically. I am so used to this on my PRS500. Heck, it even has page numbers.

BOb

This whole page number controversy is a hilarious. People, when you get a pBook you find multiple pages, so each one is assigned a number. When you get Cybook you get *EXACTLY* one page - the display - so no point dislpay page 1 of 1. Cybook is just another manifestation on your browser. Think of it as a digital printing press. Instead of a single book version you can produce any number of versions by changing attributes such as font type and size. Therefore just as browsers don't have page numbers so Cybook doesn't either. Instead it has a scroll/progress bar. Again, for the same reason why scroll bar is superior in a borwser it is also better in Cybook. The only software that actually does have page numbers is the one which is designed to produce output for physical pages, such as Word.


i think you are missing the main use of page number. It is to know how long the things is you are reading and knowing how much you have left to read. Reading a short story in a collection it is impossible to know how long the short story is which for me influence the experience very negatively.

Reading in a browser is as bad.

Some books you bought did not work. This is a show stopper since you cannot read the book.

Some of the books I bought? No, not me. Every book I've bought has worked just fine for me. The only books that did not work were ones I checked out of the library (that did not stop me from reading them), but that's now working beautifully on my Cybook.

For me page numbers are absolutely a must.
Cannot imagine reading a book without it.

i think you are missing the main use of page number. It is to know how long the things is you are reading and knowing how much you have left to read. Reading a short story in a collection it is impossible to know how long the short story is which for me influence the experience very negatively.

Reading in a browser is as bad.


And yet so many people aren't negatively influenced by that. For one thing, if it's a *short* story, there's nothing preventing you from paging through to find out how much farther you have to read - for that story. For another, you're supposed to be concentrating upon enjoying the story, not fretting over how many pages you have left in it. :smack:

I mean, yeah, each to his own tastes, but that is, in my opinion, a rather silly thing to aggravate over.

Derek

For me page numbers are absolutely a must.
Cannot imagine reading a book without it.

Why?

Really. Why?!?

Does not knowing somehow make the story less entertaining? Do the characters become lackluster if you can't tell which page you are on? Does the plot wither due to lack of numbering? Can you quantify the value added to a story by the page numbers? If you can, please post a spreadsheet with the values and formulas.

Derek

Some of the books I bought? No, not me. Every book I've bought has worked just fine for me. The only books that did not work were ones I checked out of the library (that did not stop me from reading them), but that's now working beautifully on my Cybook.

Wrong wording. You could buy books that did not work. Trying to open them crashed the Cybook. This was probably the most serious bug we have seen reported here.

And yet so many people aren't negatively influenced by that. For one thing, if it's a *short* story, there's nothing preventing you from paging through to find out how much farther you have to read - for that story. For another, you're supposed to be concentrating upon enjoying the story, not fretting over how many pages you have left in it. :smack:


You are reading a 200 page book and a 2000 page book in different ways with regard to interpreation of what you are reading. I find it very strange that these kind of knowledge does not affect how people read. If a short story is 4 pages or 40 pages will totally decide the strukture of the story and you need to have some hint about the structure to be able to read it properly.

It also seems like people only read for "enjoying the story" which is strange. A book is more than the story.

For me having (or not having) page numbers is not the issue or even important....but knowing how far through the book I am does have an influence on me while reading.

This is not something that is easy to quantify with a "spreadsheet with the values and formulas". Rather I find that there is an emotional reaction to the flow of the story. This is primarily evident when approaching the end of the book where there is an expectation that the author will (or needs to) begin wrapping up various loose ends of the plot. There is a build-up in anticipation that adds to the reading experience.

YMMV, but it does exist for some of us.

As long as I can tell how far into/through the book I am, I don't really care how the information is presented.....page numbers, percentage, slider, etc.

-Jeff

As long as I can tell how far into/through the book I am, I don't really care how the information is presented.....page numbers, percentage, slider, etc.


But 900 pages read of a total of 1000 is rather different from 90 pages read of a total of 100 so you need the total number of pages also. But I totally agree that your exectations add to the reading experience in a positive way.

You are reading a 200 page book and a 2000 page book in different ways with regard to interpreation of what you are reading. I find it very strange that these kind of knowledge does not affect how people read. If a short story is 4 pages or 40 pages will totally decide the strukture of the story and you need to have some hint about the structure to be able to read it properly.

It also seems like people only read for "enjoying the story" which is strange. A book is more than the story.

Hunh?!? Clearly we have discovered your 'true identity'! You, my good sir, are a literary critic for the New York Times!

I think I can speak for many readers here. No, I do NOT determine how to 'appreciate' or 'interpret' a given book based upon its length. I don't go into a store and pick up two new books by a given author and say to myself, "Hey. Book #1 is only 173 pages long so I'll have to interpret, process, understand and enjoy it differently than Book #2 which is 327 pages long!"

Wow. By that I mean, whatinsamhell have you been tok- smoking? And where can I get some? :)

All sarcasm aside, the value of a story, to me, resides in its entertainment value, not in the physical metrics of the story. IMO, entertainment value is determined by such things as characterization, plot, scenery, dialog, motivation. Yes, proper syntax and grammar have a role, but if I'm analyzing page count, paragraph structure and paper quality, then I've just wasted the entire cost of the book. That would be, IMHO, like determining that John Ringo's latest "Paladin of Shadows" novel isn't any good because the LCD in my Dell Axim put more eyestrain on me than the Cybook's e-ink display.

Derek

But 900 pages read of a total of 1000 is rather different from 90 pages read of a total of 100 so you need the total number of pages also. But I totally agree that your exectations add to the reading experience in a positive way.

Says who!?! It's still 90% of the story.

Furthermore, I've read some 100-page novels which had me begging for more and some 1,000-page opuses which left me sickened by the waste of time. And the reverse is true for other stories. But in no case did I view length-qua-length as the determining factor. Rather, it was the storytelling methods used. Filling 100, 200 or more pages with lifeless, unimaginative, repetitious and dense, non-descriptive prose kills a story for me. But those same 100 or more pages packed with vivid descriptions of scenery and character motivation as well as action, thought and dialog can force me into a state where I am less 'reading' the story than I am 'imagining' it-where I literally step into the author's world.

Derek

Says who!?! It's still 90% of the story.


No, it is not. The story is not mapped linearly to the page number.

But if you have not noticed that stories of different length are usually structured differently then I do not know what to say since I find that so absurd.

No, it is not. The story is not mapped linearly to the page number.

But if you have not noticed that stories of different length are usually structured differently then I do not know what to say since I find that so absurd.

Oh, I've noticed, when I deign to bother. But that metric isn't even remotely relevant to my enjoyment of a novel. All that is relevant is whether I get absorbed enough to imagine myself in that world.

If the author concentrates upon words or sentence, paragraph and chapter structure which inhibits my ability to 'transcend the page', then I won't bother finishing the story and I won't bother buying another book from the author. Any author that forces me to be more concerned over his technique, his mechanics, his 'Wow! Look at me forcing a new "style"!' is an author who doesn't really write fiction.

Derek

Still seems to me that at least some folks are trying to apply a very measurable set of criteria to this. I do not believe that you can simply say that 90% of a (p)book that is 100 pages in length is different than one that is 1000 pages in length. It's not that easy. It depends on the author's pacing of the story.

By the time I get near the end of a book, that pacing guides my expectation...not the exact page count. That's why for me any of the pages-to-be-read measures works....for me.

-Jeff

On the subject of Cybook software being beta when released:

I got my Cybok in November, in first batch. It has the earliest released 1.0 software. I installed two dictionaries on it, and they work fine, finding everything that's in them. It never crashed for me without reason, and I read about a book a day. It crashed a few times when I tried to open PDFs with big images inside, that's all. I never had filesystem corruption either, and I mounted both internal Cybook space and SD card through Cybook on Win XP and Mac. I didn't update to newer firmware as that might make something actually start crashing for me...

So it's not like the "beta" is crashing for everyone - maybe it just seems so because the people who have problems with it post here. And it may be just a small number of people out of those 10 thousand who have problems.

Wow, I had no idea that other people were having so many issues with their Cybook. I have had mine for about a month now and I have never had the dictionary not work, or the progress bar, or any of the other issues that have been presented in this thread. I think it is something the user is doing and not the machine.

As far as features go, I would like a folder system, a way to manage book marks, and the ability to move up/down and left/right when I am navigating through hot links (such as those found in the bible) and I would like the ability to look up phrases and words in a book for study purposes. Other than that I think the Cybook works just fine.

So it's not like the "beta" is crashing for everyone - maybe it just seems so because the people who have problems with it post here. And it may be just a small number of people out of those 10 thousand who have problems.

A beta should not crash. Traditionally a beta release is something that has been tested and is near a real release. And I would say that the number of bugs found and the range of the severity was consistent with a typical beta release.

i think you are missing the main use of page number. It is to know how long the things is you are reading and knowing how much you have left to read. Reading a short story in a collection it is impossible to know how long the short story is which for me influence the experience very negatively.

Reading in a browser is as bad.

Both text and MobiPocket modes display a progress bar at the bottom that conveys 2 attributes:
- the current page position in the overall text is marked by the solid bar
- the total content length is marked by the empty rectangle which is the full display width

A pBook similarly conveys the current position by a page number and the total length by the final page's number. The *ONLY* difference are units. The progress bar unit is a pixel that represents a certain number of lines of text as opposed to pages. The difference for me is minor.

Now, I select ""Go To..." then " "Page..." and I get the total number of pages, in my case I have 1339. So now I know the empty rectangle represents 1339 pages and my progress bas is around 40% mark, so about page 535.
Well that is good enough for me. I get all the information I could possibly want.

Besides, when I am looking at the page number or progress indicator too much then I know I should discard the book as I don't really like it.

I think we will all just agree to disagree because after 6 pages, nobody is going to be changing their opinions. Yes, the software is not perfect, ad yes, the software release schedule is not what we had hoped. But these things are out of our hands, so all we can do is sit, wait, and see what the next firmware release will bring before we start revolting. The current software works well enough, but it can be better. And if this firmware is a disappointment, I will definitely be angered enough to support any kind of collective outcry.

...Rather I find that there is an emotional reaction to the flow of the story. This is primarily evident when approaching the end of the book where there is an expectation that the author will (or needs to) begin wrapping up various loose ends of the plot. There is a build-up in anticipation that adds to the reading experience.

YMMV, but it does exist for some of us.

As long as I can tell how far into/through the book I am, I don't really care how the information is presented.....page numbers, percentage, slider, etc.

-Jeff

And that is my point. The progress bar is perfectly fine without page numbers.

As for the original point, it is not always the case. I read a book where the main plot was sort of closed, but several new ones were opened right at the end. I didn't know if a sequel was being made or not. Clearly the author decided to have more books to follow. So you don't always know what if anything shall be resolved towards the end.

But 900 pages read of a total of 1000 is rather different from 90 pages read of a total of 100 so you need the total number of pages also. But I totally agree that your exectations add to the reading experience in a positive way.

Menu - Go To selection will give you the total.
Besides after reading 90 or 900 pages you should have a fairly good idea of the total length. In fact right from the starts simply by observing progress of the position bar you get a good feel for the total length, as in short/medium/long book. Again, the exact number of pages is never important.

Isn't that what bookmarks are supposed to do?
Some people are having issues with bookmarks which is why they want page numbers. But if the next firmware fixes the bookmarks then there really is no need for page numbers.

Ralob,
These kinds of comments are really annoying.
If you found "the software is not perfect" yet at the same time "current software works well enough" then why would a new "firmware is a disappointment" be cause for "collective outcry"?????? Does that imply that the current software is a "disappointment" as well even though it "works well enough"? Does it mean that you expected an update sooner that would make this software/device almost perfect?

Sounds to me you and the minority have very high expectations. You should simply forget about Cybook and look at iRex Iliad and other more expensive devices. You only get so much for the money you pay. A perfect device having perfect software costs. Cybook *NEVER* had such goals. Like most other eReader makers they made certain compromises. Software clearly took the back seat as they pushed hardware design to get the device out sooner.

Frankly there are times when I wait for version 1.3 or even 2 of something new to let others deal with the initial problems. You want to see problems and hassles of a brand new tek, just go look at iRobot cleaner bots. Some problems actually reappeared in a newer gen.

The bottom line is pay more money for a higher end device that will meet all you expectation, or wait for Cybook V3 that should have 99% of the issues resolved by then. You simply won't get a problem free V1 device for cheap.

Says who!?! It's still 90% of the story.

Furthermore, I've read some 100-page novels which had me begging for more and some 1,000-page opuses which left me sickened by the waste of time. And the reverse is true for other stories. But in no case did I view length-qua-length as the determining factor. Rather, it was the storytelling methods used. Filling 100, 200 or more pages with lifeless, unimaginative, repetitious and dense, non-descriptive prose kills a story for me. But those same 100 or more pages packed with vivid descriptions of scenery and character motivation as well as action, thought and dialog can force me into a state where I am less 'reading' the story than I am 'imagining' it-where I literally step into the author's world.

Derek
Have you ever read Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard? I read it because a friend recommended it to me. The real problem with it was that it looked like it could have ended in a number of different places and that Hubbard just kept taking on mare words that had no real baring on the story.

Question... without page numbers, how does the Gen3 handle going to a specific part of the book?

Have you ever read Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard? I read it because a friend recommended it to me. The real problem with it was that it looked like it could have ended in a number of different places and that Hubbard just kept taking on mare words that had no real baring on the story.


On that book you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! And the very FIRST go/throw point was Page 1, Paragraph 1, Word 1!!! :D

Derek

Question... without page numbers, how does the Gen3 handle going to a specific part of the book?


Alright already! [Grumble. Grumble. Grumble.]

One goes to the 'Go To' menu choice and when that choice's dialog appears, one selects 'Page...'. That causes a numeric-grid dialog box to appear. That dialog box clearly shows the total number of pages. The only beef I have with it is that when it first pops up, it does not show the current page number.

Derek

P.S. RTFM (Research The Flipping Menus)

Ralob,
These kinds of comments are really annoying.
If you found "the software is not perfect" yet at the same time "current software works well enough" then why would a new "firmware is a disappointment" be cause for "collective outcry"?????? Does that imply that the current software is a "disappointment" as well even though it "works well enough"? Does it mean that you expected an update sooner that would make this software/device almost perfect?


You find the type of post I made annoying? Guess I better cry myself to sleep tonight.

I meant that the whole idea that the software being "beta" is not accurate in my opinion. It is usable, has no show-stopping bugs, and is reasonably stable (for me). And if you read my statement before, you will obviously see that I said there is room for improvement. It is what I would call "average". The CyBook is still somewhat new to the market, so I would not call the current firmware a "disappointment" as it was released some time ago. I feel it does need to be updated.

And no, firmware updates will never make the device perfect. No device is perfect regardless of how much money you spend.

As for the "outcry". I will be mad if folder support is not added when it is clearly important to most users. It is not imperative for the software to work, but it would make things so much easier. I will not return my device if it is not fixed this week, but I will question Bookeen as to whether or not there is an ETA for it.

And yes, I expected an update sooner.

. . .

As for the "outcry". I will be mad if folder support is not added when it is clearly important to most users. It is not imperative for the software to work, but it would make things so much easier. I will not return my device if it is not fixed this week, but I will question Bookeen as to whether or not there is an ETA for it.

And yes, I expected an update sooner.

"Sooner"??? I expected the update on March 1st! Didn't happen. Now I'm just circling, circling, circling the drain.......
:(

Derek

As for the "outcry". I will be mad if folder support is not added when it is clearly important to most users.

It may be important to most users on this forum but we are not representative of "typical" eBook user - people who seek out a forum such as this are, almost by definition, eBook enthusiasts.

You don't honestly think that there's no folder view because Bookeen couldn't implement one, do you, or that it's just a coincidence that no eBook reader (other than the iLiad, which is rather a different type of device) has them?

The reason that folders aren't supported is almost without doubt because the market research that these companies do shows them that the typical "non-expert" user gets confused by folders, and loses things put in them.

I'll be happy to see folders if we get them, but I completely understand why it is that we DON'T have them in the current firmware.

It may be important to most users on this forum The reason that folders aren't supported is almost without doubt because the market research that these companies do shows them that the typical "non-expert" user gets confused by folders, and loses things put in them.

I'll be happy to see folders if we get them, but I completely understand why it is that we DON'T have them in the current firmware.

I agree, if you go to www.mobipocket.com en check out the 'big' reader for windows, you can see they have no folder support at all. It is even worse than on the cybook. If you put a book in a subfolder from your main folder the books won't be visible in the library. On the cybook they do show up when you use subfolders. You can even use it as a primitive "sort on author"

The Windows reader does have the option to select and sort on various things like subject, title and author. That makes life better.

If you read the mobipocket forum you can see that people are asking for folders for years now. The response is alway: Use the library software and you do not need folders.

I think the best we can hope for is a better search/sort/select mechanism.

Alright already! [Grumble. Grumble. Grumble.]

One goes to the 'Go To' menu choice and when that choice's dialog appears, one selects 'Page...'. That causes a numeric-grid dialog box to appear. That dialog box clearly shows the total number of pages. The only beef I have with it is that when it first pops up, it does not show the current page number.

Derek

P.S. RTFM (Research The Flipping Menus)
Given that the progress bar does not show page numbers, how do you know what page number it is you might want?

Given that the progress bar does not show page numbers, how do you know what page number it is you might want?

The same way I do it in a p-book.

I was somewere in the middle, total size is 700 pages, so it must be around 350. Hmmmm...I already read this part, so it must be 50 higher...Aha...that is new. So it must be 25 lower. Aha...read that part. I'n within 25 pages now, on the avarage 12. Page forward from here

Software clearly took the back seat as they pushed hardware design to get the device out sooner.


But Bookeen has not done the hardware design and they have not written the operating system. The only thing they have done is written or licensed the application software.

Expecting bug free software is unrealistic. But it is not unrealistic to expect working navigation if you have a couple of hundreds books on the device.

Have you ever read Battlefield Earth by L. Ron Hubbard? I read it because a friend recommended it to me. The real problem with it was that it looked like it could have ended in a number of different places and that Hubbard just kept taking on mare words that had no real baring on the story.

For me it ended after half the book. I just refused to read more. One of the few books I have not finished.

Some people are having issues with bookmarks which is why they want page numbers. But if the next firmware fixes the bookmarks then there really is no need for page numbers.

Do not claim this as a general truth. I need page number for many other reasons.

The same way I do it in a p-book.

I was somewere in the middle, total size is 700 pages, so it must be around 350. Hmmmm...I already read this part, so it must be 50 higher...Aha...that is new. So it must be 25 lower. Aha...read that part. I'n within 25 pages now, on the avarage 12. Page forward from here

Except that the page forward is so slow that this method is not working. I actually notice page number when I read and remember some of them.

Do not claim this as a general truth. I need page number for many other reasons.

Although CyBook looks like a nice alternative to Sony, I will not consider it(well its next generation brother) at all unless they implement as clear page numbering as Sony does atm. I really envy you guys who can do without page numbers.

Except that the page forward is so slow that this method is not working. I actually notice page number when I read and remember some of them.

Ok, add one stap more



I was somewere in the middle, total size is 700 pages, so it must be around 350. Hmmmm...I already read this part, so it must be 50 higher...Aha...that is new. So it must be 25 lower. Aha...read that part. I'n within 25 pages now, on the avarage 12. Page forward from here

Do not page forward from her, but increase with 12 and you are on an average of 6 pages from the correct one.

Page forward slow? It takes 0.75 second to switch a page. Add 0.2 seconds for the reaction time of the average human beeing. So you can turn a page about every second. Not much slower tha a p-book. But it means that even if you have to page forward 12 pages, you will find your page in about 15 seconds.

And even if you saw a page number a couple of minutes ago, you stil have the same procedure. Only you won't start at my 'educated' guess of 350 but at the 362 you have seen. That one is almost certainly to low, so you'll have to increase with 50 and follow the same procedure.

The trick with this binary search is that it really doesn't matter were you start. If, in my example, I didn't had a clue were to start, and made the stupid choice to begin at 690, the next step would have been 345, followed by 520 followed bij 430, 380 and so on. The numbers don't have to be exact, the only thing you have to do is split the difference until you are close enough. The difference between the last known number methode and the worst case is probably two guesses. The difference between the last known number and an educated guess is maximum one itteration and probably no difference at all.

I really envy you guys who can do without page numbers.

I can do without them because they are meaningless numbers. If we talk about a book and I tell you I read something of importance on page 234, you almost certainly cannot find it on your reader because you have a different font size/type. And even if you come to my house to look it up, there is a big chance that it won't be on the same page anymore on my reader because first I was reading in my garden were the sun was shining and I changed the font size just before you arrived in the evening

The only more or less usefull number would be: Look at 45.56% of your book. That number won't change.

Something not mentioned about page numbers (AFAIK): it gives you an extra way to put a value on a book, like "Wow! This is great, but it's only 200 pages, so I should cherish each and every page (word even)!".

Next to that it gives you a way to plan your bookreading; sometimes it happens that you know beforehand that you won't have much time to do serious reading in the next few weeks; you shouldn't start in a 1000+ page story, it would decrease the value you get from reading it, because it will be so very fragmented. It's perfectly OK however, to read a 200 page story in the same time because you'll easily finish it :)

...you could compare it to eating in a restaurant: if you've got time (and money) go eat in a fancy restaurant and order a 7-course meal. And go for a single course fish&chips if you haven't got time. Both meals are perfectly enjoyable and for both meals you should know beforehand how much time (=pages) you've got to choose the right one...

So for me, I would really like to have page numbers, including total page count. On screen. Not in the clumsy menus...

Question... without page numbers, how does the Gen3 handle going to a specific part of the book?

Well it does have page numbers, except they are not displayed. It has a "Go to..." menu item wherein you type a page number to jump to. That screen actually displays the total number of pages, so clearly is aware of current page number and total, etc.

Something not mentioned about page numbers (AFAIK): it gives you an extra way to put a value on a book, like "Wow! This is great, but it's only 200 pages, so I should cherish each and every page (word even)!".

Next to that it gives you a way to plan your bookreading; sometimes it happens that you know beforehand that you won't have much time to do serious reading in the next few weeks; you shouldn't start in a 1000+ page story, it would decrease the value you get from reading it, because it will be so very fragmented. It's perfectly OK however, to read a 200 page story in the same time because you'll easily finish it :)

...you could compare it to eating in a restaurant: if you've got time (and money) go eat in a fancy restaurant and order a 7-course meal. And go for a single course fish&chips if you haven't got time. Both meals are perfectly enjoyable and for both meals should should know beforehand how much time (=pages) you've got to choose the right one...

So for me, I would really like to have page numbers, including total page count. On screen. Not in the clumsy menus...

Exactly!

And sometimes you need to plan your reading because you have to finish a book or a set of stories before a specific time point or before a specific day.

So there are several recurring issues:
- missing page numbers
- missing folders
-missing search

etc.

I don't know about you, but I was aware from reading this site that both Cybook and others have fairly limited features for organization of many books and searching/navigating them. Thus my expectations were adjusted a long time *BEFORE* making a decision to buy Cybook. I knew that folders would be delayed and effective navigation (mainly decent search feature) might never be available in this hardware. Yes, it is a defficiency.

If these features are very important to you then don't get this Cybook device. Simple as that. It is too early. Wait for Gen4 or Gen5, or whatever future version adds better navigational/organizational capabilities. I am sure at some point it will get a keyboard of some sort (maybe external). Then you'll be able to type search queries, organize folders, etc.

My point is that expectations are too high for Gen3.

As for it being a simple bundle of Linux and a few reader programs ....
We all know how buggy computer software can be. Too often we are fighting some bug that is causing crashes, etc. These folks had to not only bundle this software together but also make sure it doesn't crash every 5 minutes. You'd be surprised how difficult it can be. Granted they have a small set of programs, Linux, few readers and maybe some device drivers for SD cards. Not too much. Still the epxectations for a device like these in terms of stability are far higher than for a general purpose computer.

...you could compare it to eating in a restaurant: if you've got time (and money) go eat in a fancy restaurant and order a 7-course meal. And go for a single course fish&chips if you haven't got time. Both meals are perfectly enjoyable and for both meals you should know beforehand how much time (=pages) you've got to choose the right one...


The only problem is that the 7 course meal you had last week was so much you had to stop eating between courses and it took you 7 hours to eat. Your really found the third course outstanding. Great value for money.

And when I go there today on your recomendation they have a five course meal and I can't find course 3 that you liked so very much. Only because they decided to change the layout of the menu and printed it in another font. But basically I get the same food so it will not take me five hours to eat, but still the same seven hours it took you. And course three is combined with course four. Still great value for money.

And when I go there today on your recomendation they have a five course meal and I can't find course 3 that you liked so very much. Only because they decided to change the layout of the menu and printed it in another font. But basically I get the same food so it will not take me five hours to eat, but still the same seven hours it took you. And course three is combined with course four. Still great value for money.

It's clear that the page count depends on font size, so it will be difficult to compare page counts between e-readers of different people. For my own personal reader however... I keep going back to one specific font in one specific size (I won't mention it, it would only spawn a different discussion ;)), so comparing book sizes for my own books is completely feasible.

I can do without them because they are meaningless numbers. If we talk about a book and I tell you I read something of importance on page 234, you almost certainly cannot find it on your reader because you have a different font size/type. And even if you come to my house to look it up, there is a big chance that it won't be on the same page anymore on my reader because first I was reading in my garden were the sun was shining and I changed the font size just before you arrived in the evening

The only more or less usefull number would be: Look at 45.56% of your book. That number won't change.

I need page numbers for my personal use, not to share it with friends :rolleyes:

It's clear that the page count depends on font size, so it will be difficult to compare page counts between e-readers of different people. For my own personal reader however... I keep going back to one specific font in one specific size (I won't mention it, it would only spawn a different discussion ;)), so comparing book sizes for my own books is completely feasible.

Exactly right on the last point! For people who stick with the same format, page numbers would be a boon.

And is comparing different counts difficult?
In the unlikely event you did want to share it with someone else, all you need do is say it was page 357 out of 970 in your format - and they can easily figure out it's page 252 out of 684 in theirs.

In the unlikely event you did want to share it with someone else, all you need do is say it was page 357 out of 970 in your format - and they can easily figure out it's page 252 out of 684 in theirs.

There is a name for that system, it is called percentage :)

All you have to do is measure the length of your progress bar, and tell your friends "I'm 56mm through the book". That measurement will be independent of the font and size used :).

All you have to do is measure the length of your progress bar, and tell your friends "I'm 56mm through the book". That measurement will be independent of the font and size used :).

They'll think you're half way through the first sentence! :laugh4:

I'm curious to know who'll load the new firmware asap.
(I plan on being one of the penguins near the back, who'll have a reasonable idea just how many leopard seals there are in the icy depths before I dive in.)

Having already upgraded from v476 to v538 with no problems, I plan to upgrade immediately the new version is available.

Given that the progress bar does not show page numbers, how do you know what page number it is you might want?

By guess! By gosh! By golly! :D :D :D

Derek

But Bookeen has not done the hardware design and they have not written the operating system. The only thing they have done is written or licensed the application software.

Expecting bug free software is unrealistic. But it is not unrealistic to expect working navigation if you have a couple of hundreds books on the device.

Which is why I'm beginning to learn to accept the FBReader GUI on my WinXP machine. Of course, if someone (who's a better programmer than I) were to add PC1 decryption support to FBReader, I wouldn't have to resort to those standalone Python apps to remove DRM from my purchased Mobi ebooks. (Hint. Hint. :) :) ) I'm not saying that FBReader has the best folder navigation interface, but at least it has something!

Derek

Something not mentioned about page numbers (AFAIK): it gives you an extra way to put a value on a book, like "Wow! This is great, but it's only 200 pages, so I should cherish each and every page (word even)!".

Next to that it gives you a way to plan your bookreading; sometimes it happens that you know beforehand that you won't have much time to do serious reading in the next few weeks; you shouldn't start in a 1000+ page story, it would decrease the value you get from reading it, because it will be so very fragmented. It's perfectly OK however, to read a 200 page story in the same time because you'll easily finish it :)

...you could compare it to eating in a restaurant: if you've got time (and money) go eat in a fancy restaurant and order a 7-course meal. And go for a single course fish&chips if you haven't got time. Both meals are perfectly enjoyable and for both meals you should know beforehand how much time (=pages) you've got to choose the right one...

So for me, I would really like to have page numbers, including total page count. On screen. Not in the clumsy menus...

Well, DUH! Those thought patterns could just as easily go:

"Wow! You really ought to read this ebook! It's only 250 kilobytes in size!"

or

"I'm going in for life-preserving surgery where I have a 39% chance of dying on the operating table. I think I'd be better off skipping this 1.49MB opus in favor of these five 300KB quickies."

Works for me. :D :D: :D

Derek

They'll think you're half way through the first sentence! :laugh4:

I'm curious to know who'll load the new firmware asap.
(I plan on being one of the penguins near the back, who'll have a reasonable idea just how many leopard seals there are in the icy depths before I dive in.)

Having done the 0.91 -> 0.95, the 0.95 -> 0.98, 0.98 -> 1.0 version <400, that -> build476 and thence to build 538 - let's just say that I have NO problem with throwing myself on that steel pineapple rolling at my feet. :D

Derek

I don't know about you, but I was aware from reading this site that both Cybook and others have fairly limited features for organization of many books and searching/navigating them. Thus my expectations were adjusted a long time *BEFORE* making a decision to buy Cybook. I knew that folders would be delayed and effective navigation (mainly decent search feature) might never be available in this hardware. Yes, it is a defficiency.


Of course you cannot count ongetting things not originally in the produce. The expectations here are from a blog entry saying they are thinking/working on folders and it will be available in a next firmware release. If this means a release three years from now then it is kind of misleading.

You don't honestly think that there's no folder view because Bookeen couldn't implement one, do you, or that it's just a coincidence that no eBook reader (other than the iLiad, which is rather a different type of device) has them?

The reason that folders aren't supported is almost without doubt because the market research that these companies do shows them that the typical "non-expert" user gets confused by folders, and loses things put in them.

I can't buy the fact that folders are too complex for any Cybook user. They are a basic feature of any OS. And as for people losing things in them, the default library mode could show books from all subfolders (as is now done) and an option allowed for viewing only the current folder.

Anyway, I'd rather see support for a tag or reading list system. The Mobipocket software on the desktop and PDA's has them, and I actually find them to be more useful than folders, as I can have a book appear in more than one list simultaneously (this would work with folders if links were supported, but that is more complex for the typical user).

But I'll welcome any improved means of dealing with larger libraries.

I can't buy the fact that folders are too complex for any Cybook user. They are a basic feature of any OS.

You've obviously never worked in any kind of support department. I run my own software business and directly support people using my software. Believe me, the people who lose things in folders are the "advanced" users. It's the ones that you have to try and teach how to use a scrollbar that are the problem. I'm not joking!

The reason Microsoft stuck a "My Documents" folder in Windows and made it the default save location was precisely to deal with this kind of user. Nowadays, you just end up with a million files in "My Documents". In the old days, people used to stick everything in the root, which was a lot worse.

Hunh?!? Clearly we have discovered your 'true identity'! You, my good sir, are a literary critic for the New York Times!

I think I can speak for many readers here. No, I do NOT determine how to 'appreciate' or 'interpret' a given book based upon its length. I don't go into a store and pick up two new books by a given author and say to myself, "Hey. Book #1 is only 173 pages long so I'll have to interpret, process, understand and enjoy it differently than Book #2 which is 327 pages long!"



Derek,
I actually read a pbook that was very popular (Lonesome Dove) that had it been even 2 or 3 times longer, I would have quit reading long before I did. Up until the last chapter, I keep thinking - "This book has potential. Maybe it really get somewhere." For me, it never did. It just stopped. Had it been longer I would not have read past the "original" first 25%.

Of course this example didn't require actual page numbers. I would have been just as happy with a percent number.

Where numbers are needed with the lack of search capability is, as some have pointed out, when you lose your place and must search for it. Yes you can get "close" (and I leave the definition of "close" totally open) with the already included visual scale. However without numbers "close" has larger margins of error.

Besides, I like numbers & .PRC on my Palm TX has both a visual scale & numbers so it shouldn't be too hard to implement on the Cybook.

I actually read a pbook that was very popular (Lonesome Dove) that had it been even 2 or 3 times longer, I would have quit reading long before I did. Up until the last chapter, I keep thinking - "This book has potential. Maybe it really get somewhere." For me, it never did. It just stopped. Had it been longer I would not have read past the "original" first 25%.

That really proves how we all have different tastes. I loved Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove, it's one of my favourites. But I hated Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and found the writing style irritating and repetitive.

The one thing I wish for in the Cybook is to be able to read when the battery is re-charging.

Derek,
I actually read a pbook that was very popular (Lonesome Dove) that had it been even 2 or 3 times longer, I would have quit reading long before I did. Up until the last chapter, I keep thinking - "This book has potential. Maybe it really get somewhere." For me, it never did. It just stopped. Had it been longer I would not have read past the "original" first 25%.

Of course this example didn't require actual page numbers. I would have been just as happy with a percent number.

Where numbers are needed with the lack of search capability is, as some have pointed out, when you lose your place and must search for it. Yes you can get "close" (and I leave the definition of "close" totally open) with the already included visual scale. However without numbers "close" has larger margins of error.

Besides, I like numbers & .PRC on my Palm TX has both a visual scale & numbers so it shouldn't be too hard to implement on the Cybook.

I see. You clearly have no appreciation for the 'finer things in life'! :D (So states a "Lonesome Dove" devotee. :) ) Yes, I've not only read LD, but the other novels in the series - although I haven't gone so far as to dress and talk like my fave characters. :)

Still, while I agree with the need for a 'search' capability or a way to reference footnotes, I have no problem remembering which was the last chapter I started. Thus, if the Cybook does happen to forget my current position, I just jump to the beginning of the chapter. It's not that difficult, especially as remembering 'Chapter 39' is easier than remembering 'page 961'.

Derek

if the Cybook does happen to forget my current position,

But why would it? It's certainly never done so in my 6 months-odd of owning it. Even when I had the annoying bug of the machine rebooting or hanging when looking up words in the dictionary, it still remembered what page it had been on!

Might this be related to the issue that some people have with losing bookmarks, I wonder? A dodgy SD card? Corrupted file system?

All you have to do is measure the length of your progress bar, and tell your friends "I'm 56mm through the book". That measurement will be independent of the font and size used :).

Shame on you Harry, I would have thought you'd use the English system of measurement, i.e. 2 1/4 inches.

That really proves how we all have different tastes. I loved Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove, it's one of my favourites. But I hated Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and found the writing style irritating and repetitive.

The one thing I wish for in the Cybook is to be able to read when the battery is re-charging.

& also delphidb96, I did state it was a very popular book. As far as I know, I'm the only person who didn't like it. Of course I also dislike Ray Bradbury's work even though I love SciFi and he is very popular. When I was in college, we had a SciFi book club. With only one exception, all English and Literature majors in the club loved his work and all engineers hated it.

But why would it? It's certainly never done so in my 6 months-odd of owning it. Even when I had the annoying bug of the machine rebooting or hanging when looking up words in the dictionary, it still remembered what page it had been on!

Might this be related to the issue that some people have with losing bookmarks, I wonder? A dodgy SD card? Corrupted file system?

I had this problem once or twice, but like ProfJulie, I don't have it when I either copy directly to the SD card with out syncing or remember to "safely disconnect" the Cybook.

"Wow! You really ought to read this ebook! It's only 250 kilobytes in size!"

What have kilobytes got to do with it? Let's not muddle the water... :chinscratch:



"I'm going in for life-preserving surgery where I have a 39% chance of dying on the operating table. I think I'd be better off skipping this 1.49MB opus in favor of these five 300KB quickies."

Works for me. :D :D: :D

Derek

Good luck! :thumbsup:

I just noticed that the progress bar does not show percentage of page number at all. It seems to show the percentage of the file length. Which explains why it was totally useless for a lot of short stories I downloaded and explains some other observations (strange indications when havin PG licene or CC licence in a short story).

So you cannot look at the progress bar and see how many pages you have read.

I really like my Cybook.
None the less their are some areas of impovement.
As for too high expectations, I think if you deliver a device with a 2GB SD Card people will expect a feature that lets you handle such a card full of eBooks and having a feature "goto page..." where you have to enter a page number, without displaying a page number when reading a book ist not a very smart combination.

I'm also one of those users who experienced the bookmark bug. This problem is solved since I use a different SD Card.

Of course I'm looking forward to the new firmware, not because I can't live with the current version, but because I think it might transform a good gadget into a great one.

Currently I use my Cybook to read novels. It's not a big issue to page through my library after having finished reading a whole novel, even with several hundred eBooks on my SD-Card. But with some kind of efficient library management (folders/goto page), I would also add some reference documentations to my library, which I don't read from start to finish but to look up certain issues from time to time. Therefore such a feature would enhance the usefulness of the cybook for me.

I would also add some reference documentations to my library, which I don't read from start to finish but to look up certain issues from time to time. Therefore such a feature would enhance the usefulness of the cybook for me.

I had to remove my reference books and documents since they just took place in the library. I also like to have all the books I have read on the Cybook but that is not possible now since it destroys the navigation.

This is a really strange thread. But here are my 2 cents

First, i want pagenumbers.
Second, i want the progressbar in percentage in the library view.
Third. i want to be able to hide books in the library, that i have read.
Fourth, i want to sort books by percentage read.
Fifth, i want links to external files to work, and HTML view should be improved.

Other than that, i am very happy with my CyBook.

This is a really strange thread. But here are my 2 cents

First, i want pagenumbers.
Second, i want the progressbar in percentage in the library view.
Third. i want to be able to hide books in the library, that i have read.
Fourth, i want to sort books by percentage read.
Fifth, i want links to external files to work, and HTML view should be improved.

Other than that, i am very happy with my CyBook.

I think a progressbar with a (switchable) percentage-complete/pages-read label would make sense. That way, for those who simply cannot live without page numbers, they'd have them. IOW, leave it with a progressbar with three labeling options: no label, percentage, or pages-read.

I'd get behind the whole 'hiding the read books' idea except that it would probably be better to have the Delete button working so one could just delete them when the reader is finished.

I could seriously get behind working external links. If one has an 'each-chapter-is-it's-own-html-page' ebook, one *has* to convert to mobi because the html version can't work under build 538.

Derek

I wrote and asked Bookeen support what the status of the upgrade was, and got a reply about 2 minutes later (!) as follows:

Two minutes huh?

I begin to suspect you are on the Bookeen payroll, or maybe you're a stockholder. It would certainly explain a few things.

Two minutes huh?

I begin to suspect you are on the Bookeen payroll, or maybe you're a stockholder. It would certainly explain a few things.

I dont think so, he just got lucky ;) I am a retailer and i sometimes wait for more than a day for an answer :D

I'd get behind the whole 'hiding the read books' idea except that it would probably be better to have the Delete button working so one could just delete them when the reader is finished.
I do not want to delete the books. I just want to hide them. And on a future version you could save readinginformation depending on the user. So i and my wife can read the same book and not get in each others way other than hardwarewise ;)

I want the cybook to ALWAYS remember my place in a book when I leave the book or turn off the reader.
I want the dictionary to ALWAYS find a word if it's in there.
I want my pc to ALWAYS recognize the cybook when it's hooked up, not only when it's completely charged.
I want the cybook to ALWAYS read a file it can read sometimes.

As far as page numbers - it's already calculating the number of pages; it's not that big of a jump to show you what page you're on and the number of pages, or at least to give you the option of displaying the page number. It will help find your place when it isn't saved. I like the progress bar and the page number. In a real book you can tell about how far you are into the book, the progress bar replaces that in the electronic book.

I dont think so, he just got lucky ;) I am a retailer and i sometimes wait for more than a day for an answer :D

Right. Well if he's a plant, spreading the gospel of the greatness of bookeen all over mobile read land, he's not going to admit it now is he? Defending him doesn't change the facts, whatever they may be, regardless of how many of you choose to do it. (Nor does suspecting him.)

As far as page numbers - it's already calculating the number of pages;

I am not sure it is. I jumped to page 50 in _1632_ and then paged forward 17 paged and got to a page with "Chapter 4" on it. Then I tried to jump to page 67 but had to page back 5 pages to get to the page with "Chapter 4" on it. So the pagenumber jump is not working at all.

It seems that nobody have used the jump to page seriously since nobody has noticed that it is not working.

I always bookmark and return to the library before shutdown, and have never had any bookmark problems.

I don't have many books on the reader. I'm not using an SD card. Everything is working fine, especially since Harry told me how to back out of the dictionary reliably (use the side button!.)

Here's something though about the page number issue that nobody has mentioned: sometimes reading a pbook I'll know that I have a total of say 350 pgs. (I may even have flipped back to check, especially if I'm aware that other stuff is added on at the end.) When I'm on page 340 (I read mysteries mostly) I know the denouement is going to occur over the next 10 PAGE turns. I've found it to be harder to judge how close, exactly, I am with the slider, especially if there are other things tacked on at the end like reviews or those publisher comments or author biography, etc. The last book I read hit the end before the slider ended, and it seemed abrupt. In a pbook I would have been mentally winding down.

That said, I know this isn't a major issue. For me, for anywhere except for the very last few pages, the slider works fine.

Lelah

I am not sure it is. I jumped to page 50 in _1632_ and then paged forward 17 paged and got to a page with "Chapter 4" on it. Then I tried to jump to page 67 but had to page back 5 pages to get to the page with "Chapter 4" on it. So the pagenumber jump is not working at all.

It seems that nobody have used the jump to page seriously since nobody has noticed that it is not working.

Mobi devices don't do pagination - it's simply an "estimate" based on file position. That's why on devices which DO show the page number, (eg the iLiad) you can reach the final displayed page number and still page forward a few times before you reach the end of the book. This has been reported several times on the iLiad forum. It's yet another reason that page numbering isn't terribly useful; they aren't "real" page numbers.

Two minutes huh?

I begin to suspect you are on the Bookeen payroll, or maybe you're a stockholder. It would certainly explain a few things.

Yeah, right. In my dreams :).

Right. Well if he's a plant, spreading the gospel of the greatness of bookeen all over mobile read land, he's not going to admit it now is he? Defending him doesn't change the facts, whatever they may be, regardless of how many of you choose to do it. (Nor does suspecting him.)

When he had his iLiad, he was like this aswell. And i envy him for beeing able to fall in love with devices that much. :D Maybe Bookeen can refund him his money for the CyBook for beeing a good sales representative.

But seriously. I suspect, that once a better machine comes on the market, Harry will go for it the same way as he did with the CyBook. But there isnt one at the moment. Lets wait and see, when we will see better readers out there.

It is not without its faults , but I like my Cybook Gen3 .

It's even better than HarryT led me to believe it would be .

When he had his iLiad, he was like this aswell. And i envy him for beeing able to fall in love with devices that much.

It's not really that. It's more a case that I've been reading eBooks for an awfully long time (some 20-odd years) and I like to focus on the positive things that each new generation of device brings with it. EVERY device has bugs; anyone who's ever written software knows that there's no such thing as "bug free" software, and Bookeen seem to be pretty proactive when it comes to fixing reported bugs.

When you compare the book readers we have today to what was available 10, or even 5, years ago, it's obvious just how far we've come and just how much better these device are than those were. Be aware of the bugs, sure, but concentrating on trivial faults and making them out to be HUGE, show-stopping "issues" just seems to me to be a rather "negative" outlook on life. Enjoy the device for what it CAN do, rather than moan about what it CAN'T.

That's my philosophy of life, anyway.

Mobi devices don't do pagination - it's simply an "estimate" based on file position. That's why on devices which DO show the page number, (eg the iLiad) you can reach the final displayed page number and still page forward a few times before you reach the end of the book. This has been reported several times on the iLiad forum. It's yet another reason that page numbering isn't terribly useful; they aren't "real" page numbers.

People here has claimed that page number is working. Nobody has said that the error in 20 pages is up to 6 pages which makes it not so useful.

When you compare the book readers we have today to what was available 10, or even 5, years ago, it's obvious just how far we've come and just how much better these device are than those were.

Yeah, those stone tablets were really slow on page updates :)

People here has claimed that page number is working. Nobody has said that the error in 20 pages is up to 6 pages which makes it not so useful.

Perhaps that's one reason why page numbers aren't shown? Maybe Bookeen decided that it's better not to show a page number at all than to show an inaccurate number, as some other versions of the Mobi reader do?

Exactly. If they know they can't get it to work reliably I would rather they didn't attempt to implement it. I've had various PDA readers try to implement page numbers and I was much more frustrated with them then the Cybook. I ended up ignoring the pseudo page numbers and just using the progress bar anyway. Now the whole thing is like debating if there should be nipples on a batman costume.

Now the whole thing is like debating if there should be nipples on a batman costume.

You mean there are no....

I always bookmark and return to the library before shutdown, and have never had any bookmark problems.



A single button for bookmark would be nice. Currently it requires at least three.

Perhaps that's one reason why page numbers aren't shown? Maybe Bookeen decided that it's better not to show a page number at all than to show an inaccurate number, as some other versions of the Mobi reader do?

But they do show page numbers. What is the point of having the go to page number feature if it isn't accurate? I don't know the purpose of it at all at this point, it seems totally useless to me unless we can have page numbers shown in the book pages.

I thought they were calculating page numbers, because they supposedly are according to the go to page number feature. I think it's stubborn and stupid to then refuse to put page numbers on book pages. If I thought it was hard to calculate page numbers accurately, I'd be more understanding about why they're not available. But here I am thinking they are already doing it. Their own fake and useless feature that doesn't work correctly is making me think they are being stubborn and unresponsive to customer requests for no good reason.

I would really much prefer fewer features THAT WORK CORRECTLY over multiple features that don't. What is the point of multiple features that don't work correctly? The features are selling points, but they haven't taken the time to get them right. This, and the fact they keep focusing on selling rather than updating or customer service, tells me a lot about their business philosophy. Sales is their priority. Quality and customer satisfaction are way behind sales. I don't want to support a company who is selling a problem ridden product for way too much money with very poor customer service.

But they do show page numbers.

No, they don't. They show you an estimate of the total number of pages in the book, NOT the current page number (unless I've missed it somewhere?).

What is the point of having the go to page number feature if it isn't accurate? I don't know the purpose of it at all at this point, it seems totally useless to me unless we can have page numbers shown in the book pages.

I'd guess it's to give you a quick way of going roughly to a certain point in the book. Eg, if you want to go to a point 80% of the way through a 1000 page book, you'd say "goto page 800". How else would you make large jumps through a long book which perhaps lacked a table of contents?

I thought they were calculating page numbers, because they supposedly are according to the go to page number feature.

No, it's obvious from the fact that a "jump" destination always ends up at the top of a page that page numbers are NOT being calculated; they are just estimates based on (presumably) the length of the current page and the total file size.

If I thought it was hard to calculate page numbers accurately, I'd be more understanding about why they're not available. But here I am thinking they are already doing it. Their own fake and useless feature that doesn't work correctly is making me think they are being stubborn and unresponsive to customer requests for no good reason.


You have to lay the blame for this one at MobiPocket rather than Bookeen, I think. All versions of the Mobi reader have equally "fake" page numbers, and Bookeen license the Mobi reader code from Bookeen. Some versions of the Mobi reader display page numbers; others don't.

In the UI they should have called it something like "position" and not page number.

You have previously said that they do not licence the reader from Mobipocket but that they have written it themselves. So which statement is correct?

In the UI they should have called it something like "position" and not page number.

You have previously said that they do not licence the reader from Mobipocket but that they have written it themselves. So which statement is correct?

No, what you're thinking of, I think, is that the Gen3's Mobi reader is not the portable Java version that Mobi wrote which, for example, the iLiad directly uses. The Gen3 doesn't have a JVM; its code is all written in C or C++, I think.

How much of the code of the Mobi reader that's in the Gen3 Bookeen wrote, and how much was supplied by MobiPocket I haven't the faintest idea, but I strongly suspect that a lot of the reader "internals" came straight from Mobi.

It's certainly licenced from Mobi - look at the copyright message on the "About" box.

Is the image bug fixed in rev 538?

I just asked Tommy that myself in a different thread :). It seems to be, but needs more experimentation to check.

It's certainly licenced from Mobi - look at the copyright message on the "About" box.

But since everybody refer to build 538 (which is the build for the Boo Reader) I had assumed that this was the reader. So to discuss properties of the reader we should say version 6.0 (build 60).

Does anybody have a Cybook with old firmware and can tell us what version and build is given for the MobiPocket Reader?

It was the same - I checked before upgrading. I'd guess it just means that the Gen3's Mobi reader is based on version 6.0 of Mobi's code.

It was the same - I checked before upgrading. I'd guess it just means that the Gen3's Mobi reader is based on version 6.0 of Mobi's code.

But then you cannot know that the page handling code is from MobiPocket.

No, they don't. They show you an estimate of the total number of pages in the book, NOT the current page number (unless I've missed it somewhere?).

I'd guess it's to give you a quick way of going roughly to a certain point in the book. Eg, if you want to go to a point 80% of the way through a 1000 page book, you'd say "goto page 800". How else would you make large jumps through a long book which perhaps lacked a table of contents?

No, it's obvious from the fact that a "jump" destination always ends up at the top of a page that page numbers are NOT being calculated; they are just estimates based on (presumably) the length of the current page and the total file size.

You have to lay the blame for this one at MobiPocket rather than Bookeen, I think. All versions of the Mobi reader have equally "fake" page numbers, and Bookeen license the Mobi reader code from Bookeen. Some versions of the Mobi reader display page numbers; others don't.

They show the number of pages in the book and allow you to go to a specific page. It certainly does not say "estimated". It says go to page _ of [number of pages]. Nothing about this being anything but accurate is indicated. If you choose to go to page 50, then you assume you're on page 50. It's not at all obvious that it's "estimated." It seems pretty crystal clear to me that they're saying this is how many pages are in the book, and you can go to a specific page.

Mobipocket didn't charge me $350 for a product with multiple problems and then refuse to answer my emails. Furthermore, they absolutely have modified the code, as their version doesn't work nearly as well as the free version I have on my pc.

But since everybody refer to build 538 (which is the build for the Boo Reader) I had assumed that this was the reader. So to discuss properties of the reader we should say version 6.0 (build 60).

Does anybody have a Cybook with old firmware and can tell us what version and build is given for the MobiPocket Reader?

Isn't relevant. Boo Reader is NOT Mobipocket Reader. Boo Reader is an internal development from Bookeen. Thus, the build 476 and build 538 are indicators of Bookeen's development process. However, way back at Boo Reader 0.91, they were working to support Mobipocket 6.0x version features, if I understand correctly. You have to understand that we didn't get to see the 'About...' until Version 1.0.

Derek

No; that is simply a logical deduction based on the fact that all versions of the Mobi reader appear to exhibit the same incorrect handling of page numbers - eg the iLiad (which does display a page number) routinely lets you read beyond the displayed "end page number" of a book, so you might be reading page 510 of a 500 page book.

No; that is simply a logical deduction based on the fact that all versions of the Mobi reader appear to exhibit the same incorrect handling of page numbers - eg the iLiad (which does display a page number) routinely lets you read beyond the displayed "end page number" of a book, so you might be reading page 510 of a 500 page book.

Yes, but a reasonable explanation is that is beacuse they only have implemented what is easy to implement. And if the write there own reader and only use support functions from MobiPocket tey can implement whatever they want so you cannot blame or explain the implementation by saying that they have only licensed the code which was what you did above.
They have their reader code and they could have implemented something that worked better. Do not blame MobiPocket.

They show the number of pages in the book and allow you to go to a specific page. It certainly does not say "estimated". It says go to page _ of [number of pages]. Nothing about this being anything but accurate is indicated. If you choose to go to page 50, then you assume you're on page 50. It's not at all obvious that it's "estimated." It seems pretty crystal clear to me that they're saying this is how many pages are in the book, and you can go to a specific page.

Mobipocket didn't charge me $350 for a product with multiple problems and then refuse to answer my emails. Furthermore, they absolutely have modified the code, as their version doesn't work nearly as well as the free version I have on my pc.

Sorry, but both the Gen3 and the PC version have exactly the same page numbering bugs.

Try this:

Create a book from an HTML file and go to page "100" in it. Make a note of where that page starts. Now add a hyperlink to a point near the bottom of page "100".

Now, if you jump to that hyperlink the point which was previously near the bottom of the page will be right at the top, but the PC version of the Mobi reader will still tell you that you're looking at page 100. Which is the "real" page 100 - the one that you get to by paging through the book, or the one that you get to by jumping to that hyperlink? Different pages are being displayed, so they can't both be the same page, and yet Mobi reader will tell you that both are "page 100".

All versions of the Mobi reader do this. No Mobi device - free or otherwise - does real pagination. Page numbers are an estimates, whether they tell you this or not. This is obvious if you play around with hyperlinks in books.

That's the way that the Mobi readers have always worked. Page numbers are nothing more than estimates based on file position.

Yes, but a reasonable explanation is that is beacuse they only have implemented what is easy to implement. And if the write there own reader and only use support functions from MobiPocket tey can implement whatever they want so you cannot blame or explain the implementation by saying that they have only licensed the code which was what you did above.
They have their reader code and they could have implemented something that worked better. Do not blame MobiPocket.

I merely note that the Mobi reader shows page numbering bugs on all platforms. It seems logical, therefore, to acribe this behaviour to the internal functionality of Mobi's code. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. We all could be wrong. Who knows? It's just a guess.

Now, if you jump to that hyperlink the point which was previously near the bottom of the page will be right at the top, but the PC version of the Mobi reader will still tell you that you're looking at page 100. Which is the "real" page 100 - the one that you get to by paging through the book, or the one that you get to by jumping to that hyperlink? Different pages are being displayed, so they can't both be the same page, and yet Mobi reader will tell you that both are "page 100".


Plus minue one page is natural if you think about the file format and how it works. It is an error of 6 pages when jumping 20 pages forward that I would be surprised if all readers had.

Plus minue one page is natural if you think about the file format and how it works. It is an error of 6 pages when jumping 20 pages forward that I would be surprised if all readers had.

Try it. See if the Windows Mobi reader has the same bug. My guess would be that it does. I'd be interested to know!

They show the number of pages in the book and allow you to go to a specific page. It certainly does not say "estimated". It says go to page _ of [number of pages]. Nothing about this being anything but accurate is indicated. If you choose to go to page 50, then you assume you're on page 50. It's not at all obvious that it's "estimated." It seems pretty crystal clear to me that they're saying this is how many pages are in the book, and you can go to a specific page.

Mobipocket didn't charge me $350 for a product with multiple problems and then refuse to answer my emails. Furthermore, they absolutely have modified the code, as their version doesn't work nearly as well as the free version I have on my pc.

Mobipocket also didn't develop the reader app installed on the Cybook. That app was developed, under license from Mobipocket if I understand correctly, by Bookeen. And if you think you have a flawed product, just remember that *MY* first Cybook Gen3 was an 'engineering sample' and didn't even come with Version 1.0 build 1 of the reader app. I got Version 0.91!!!

Yes, Boo Reader is designed to implement the feature-set that Mobipocket Reader offers. But it IS a work-in-progress! Clearly it supports just a subset of MobiReader features. However, the subset offered in V1.0b538 is far and away SUPERIOR to what I first got to use!

I had NO working dictionary-lookup, NO Secure Mobipocket support, NO Go To, No ability to turn page-flashing on/off, and the list goes on and on. Bookeen has made tremendous strides in what features Boo Reader offers.

Is it as complete as MobiReader 6.x? No. Is it moving in that direction? Yes. Is it worth the $350-$450 we paid? Well, no. But then, Boo Reader is NOT the entirety of the Cybook. Nosirree, Bob! The vast majority of what we paid for is wrapped up in the hardware and the underlying OS! Believe you me, even if you go for a 'generic' e-ink device nearly exactly the same as the Cybook - but without Boo Reader - you're going to pay about $280-$325 (including shipping). And at that you'll have a device which can read TXT, HTML and *some* PDF. I've seen the "library" functions these offer and they're not even as good as what Bookeen offers in the Cybook.

Granted, buying one of these means we can get a cheaper price, but then anyone who buys one is going to have to figure out how to: 1) "upgrade" FBReader to allow reading of Secure Mobipocket and, 2) "port" FBReader to install and run on the device - or - 3) write from scratch a custom Secure Mobipocket reader for the device. This can be done. But it's going to take some time. Gosh durn! By shelling out $350-$450 a customer can get 85% of what Mobipocket Reader supplies on that same basic hardware framework.

Given that most customers are NOT going to want to have to become C++/Python/Java application and systems programmers, I think you might want to cut Bookeen some slack. But that's just my humble opinion. :)

Derek

Try it. See if the Windows Mobi reader has the same bug. My guess would be that it does. I'd be interested to know!

I would if I used Windows regularly. I will not reboot my laptop just to check this. My observation was done with _1632_ from Baen. The procudure was: jump to page 50, page forward until you see some text you recognize like "chapter 4" and count the number of pages (17 in my case). Jump to page 67 and notice that you are 5 pages off.

I keep checking this thread hoping to find "News from Bookeen about firmware upgrades" but except for the first entry --- nothing!!:(

Sorry, but both the Gen3 and the PC version have exactly the same page numbering bugs.

Try this:

Create a book from an HTML file and go to page "100" in it. Make a note of where that page starts. Now add a hyperlink to a point near the bottom of page "100".

Now, if you jump to that hyperlink the point which was previously near the bottom of the page will be right at the top, but the PC version of the Mobi reader will still tell you that you're looking at page 100. Which is the "real" page 100 - the one that you get to by paging through the book, or the one that you get to by jumping to that hyperlink? Different pages are being displayed, so they can't both be the same page, and yet Mobi reader will tell you that both are "page 100".

All versions of the Mobi reader do this. No Mobi device - free or otherwise - does real pagination. Page numbers are an estimates, whether they tell you this or not. This is obvious if you play around with hyperlinks in books.

That's the way that the Mobi readers have always worked. Page numbers are nothing more than estimates based on file position.

Ok. Mobipocket Reader was free. Cybook cost $350. I don't much mind page number bugs in free software. I do mind it in $350 devices.

Personally, I find it useless in it's present state; and the fact they have it leads one to believe it would be easy to add page numbers to the books since the numbers are already being calculated.

A specific page begins with a specific line and ends with a specific line. The fact that you can place a link somewhere in the middle of the page and put that part at the top doesn't change the concept that it's the middle of the page, and further down a new page begins. A link to a specific page number (as in go to page number feature) should go to the top of the page. The number of fixed pages can (theoretically) be calculated, it has nothing to do with the fact that portions of two pages can be displayed at one time. This has never confused me, I don't see the problem.

Ok. Mobipocket Reader was free. Cybook cost $350. I don't much mind page number bugs in free software. I do mind it in $350 devices.

Personally, I find it useless in it's present state; and the fact they have it leads one to believe it would be easy to add page numbers to the books since the numbers are already being calculated.

That's your opinion and you have the right to it, but I think most typical readers would find it to be invalid.

A specific page begins with a specific line and ends with a specific line. The fact that you can place a link somewhere in the middle of the page and put that part at the top doesn't change the concept that it's the middle of the page, and further down a new page begins. A link to a specific page number (as in go to page number feature) should go to the top of the page. The number of fixed pages can (theoretically) be calculated, it has nothing to do with the fact that portions of two pages can be displayed at one time. This has never confused me, I don't see the problem.

What I think is happening is that Bookeen started developing their Boo Reader and, as they had a licensing arrangement with Mobipocket, asked for help on how Mobi software does things. And Mobi supplied the algorithm used for determining page positioning, etc. I'm pretty sure Bookeen implemented that way in order to be as compliant to Mobi's internal standard as they could. Well, in much of their implementation, doing so produced quality features. But in this instance - page determination - following Mobi's approach turned out to be, shall we say, 'flawed'?

Yet, here you are, on the one hand demanding they be as close to MobiReader as possible, and on the other hand, bitching and moaning because they are doing it exactly the same way - when doing so doesn't meet your ideals. Boo-hoo-hoo. Cry me a river. :smack:

Derek

I would if I used Windows regularly. I will not reboot my laptop just to check this. My observation was done with _1632_ from Baen. The procudure was: jump to page 50, page forward until you see some text you recognize like "chapter 4" and count the number of pages (17 in my case). Jump to page 67 and notice that you are 5 pages off.

I've just tried the experiment on the PC version - it's just as bad.

Here's what I did.

I loaded one of my books (Jane Austen's "Northanger Abbey") and paged through it until I got to the start of chapter 7. The status bar showed page 52. I went back to the start of the book, and then did a "goto page 52". Did this take me to the start of chapter 7? No - it actually took me almost to chapter 8. I had to page back 14 pages - to what was now shown as page 38- in order to find the start of chapter 7, so that's a discrepency of 14 pages in 52.

Page numbers are virtually meaningless in ALL versions of the Mobi reader. I rest my case!

What I think is happening is that Bookeen started developing their Boo Reader and, as they had a licensing arrangement with Mobipocket, asked for help on how Mobi software does things. And Mobi supplied the algorithm used for determining page positioning, etc. I'm pretty sure Bookeen implemented that way in order to be as compliant to Mobi's internal standard as they could. Well, in much of their implementation, doing so produced quality features. But in this instance - page determination - following Mobi's approach turned out to be, shall we say, 'flawed'?


Derek - I think that is exactly what's happened. I completely agree with you. Mobi supplied the algorithms - perhaps even the code - which is flawed.

Mobipocket also didn't develop the reader app installed on the Cybook. That app was developed, under license from Mobipocket if I understand correctly, by Bookeen. And if you think you have a flawed product, just remember that *MY* first Cybook Gen3 was an 'engineering sample' and didn't even come with Version 1.0 build 1 of the reader app. I got Version 0.91!!!

Yes, Boo Reader is designed to implement the feature-set that Mobipocket Reader offers. But it IS a work-in-progress! Clearly it supports just a subset of MobiReader features. However, the subset offered in V1.0b538 is far and away SUPERIOR to what I first got to use!

I had NO working dictionary-lookup, NO Secure Mobipocket support, NO Go To, No ability to turn page-flashing on/off, and the list goes on and on. Bookeen has made tremendous strides in what features Boo Reader offers.

I fail to see how this is any defense for them. In fact, it's just proving my point. Why in the heck did they sell such an inadequate product? Why didn't they wait until they had something of higher quality before putting these things on the market? Doesn't this just prove that they are interested in sales over quality? And why are you so satisfied with having paid so much for such a poor product? Because it's better than the competition does not make it good. There is a concept I think a lot of you fail to grasp.

Is it as complete as MobiReader 6.x? No. Is it moving in that direction? Yes. Is it worth the $350-$450 we paid? Well, no. But then, Boo Reader is NOT the entirety of the Cybook. Nosirree, Bob! The vast majority of what we paid for is wrapped up in the hardware and the underlying OS! Believe you me, even if you go for a 'generic' e-ink device nearly exactly the same as the Cybook - but without Boo Reader - you're going to pay about $280-$325 (including shipping). And at that you'll have a device which can read TXT, HTML and *some* PDF. I've seen the "library" functions these offer and they're not even as good as what Bookeen offers in the Cybook.

Granted, buying one of these means we can get a cheaper price, but then anyone who buys one is going to have to figure out how to: 1) "upgrade" FBReader to allow reading of Secure Mobipocket and, 2) "port" FBReader to install and run on the device - or - 3) write from scratch a custom Secure Mobipocket reader for the device. This can be done. But it's going to take some time. Gosh durn! By shelling out $350-$450 a customer can get 85% of what Mobipocket Reader supplies on that same basic hardware framework.

Given that most customers are NOT going to want to have to become C++/Python/Java application and systems programmers, I think you might want to cut Bookeen some slack. But that's just my humble opinion. :)

Derek

I wouldn't be so vocal about the flaws if so many people weren't on here singing the praises of how wonderful and perfect it is. I can't believe some of what some people are saying, because I know I'm not lying, and I know I treat my cybook well. So how can it be that some people's product works perfectly when mine doesn't? I want prospective buyers to have a complete picture of what they are getting into so they can make an informed decision that is right for them.

I've just tried the experiment on the PC version - it's just as bad.

Here's what I did.

I loaded one of my books (Jane Austen's "Northanger Abbey") and paged through it until I got to the start of chapter 7. The status bar showed page 52. I went back to the start of the book, and then did a "goto page 52". Did this take me to the start of chapter 7? No - it actually took me almost to chapter 8. I had to page back 14 pages - to what was now shown as page 38- in order to find the start of chapter 7, so that's a discrepency of 14 pages in 52.

Page numbers are virtually meaningless in ALL versions of the Mobi reader. I rest my case!

I tested with FBReader and noticed that one page forward not always gave me one new page number. I did not find a jump to page but I suspect that it could work better with FBReader.

I am suprised because it seems simple to implement something that works better. There is no reason why page jump and paging forward should en up on different pages if you define page as what the page number says.

Derek - I think that is exactly what's happened. I completely agree with you. Mobi supplied the algorithms - perhaps even the code - which is flawed.


So what needs to happen, over time, is Bookeen has to decide whether to black-box a new implementation which doesn't rely upon *any* of Mobi's 'flawed' algorithms. Has anyone checked out whether FBReader makes the same mistake? Perhaps the algorithms used by it's display modules might be a good source for 'updating' Boo Reader.

Derek

I fail to see how this is any defense for them. In fact, it's just proving my point. Why in the heck did they sell such an inadequate product?

Because when you licence a product from someone you're generally not allowed to make ad hoc changes to it. When Bookeen licenced the rights to implement the MobiPocket Reader on the Gen3 they probably had to produce a product that performed to the specs and algorithms that Mobi supplied them with - bugs and all.

That's your opinion and you have the right to it, but I think most typical readers would find it to be invalid.

Which part?

I think the "typical reader" expects more from an expensive product than they do from a free one, and I think it's completly valid.

I also think the "typical reader" is going to assume, by looking at what's presented, that they are calculating page numbers and offering to send you to a specific page. They would assume that because that's exactly what it looks like.



What I think is happening is that Bookeen started developing their Boo Reader and, as they had a licensing arrangement with Mobipocket, asked for help on how Mobi software does things. And Mobi supplied the algorithm used for determining page positioning, etc. I'm pretty sure Bookeen implemented that way in order to be as compliant to Mobi's internal standard as they could. Well, in much of their implementation, doing so produced quality features. But in this instance - page determination - following Mobi's approach turned out to be, shall we say, 'flawed'?

Yet, here you are, on the one hand demanding they be as close to MobiReader as possible, and on the other hand, bitching and moaning because they are doing it exactly the same way - when doing so doesn't meet your ideals. Boo-hoo-hoo. Cry me a river. :smack:

Derek

I have not demanded that they be as close to mobireader as possible, although it would be an improvement if they were more like it. Nor am I bitching and moaning that they are. Mobipocket Desktop Reader was free AND it works better. Granted the cybook offers features the desktop reader doesn't. Do you always spend your money like it's water? Some of us don't appreciate spending a lot of money on things that don't work correctly (and don't underestimate the importance of poor customer service). In fact, it's possible that the "typical reader" cares about the product they get for the money. Even assuming that most people don't care how they spend their money and what they get for it, some people do, and it's completely valid. Just because a feature is unimportant to you, doesn't make it unimportant.

I fail to see how this is any defense for them. In fact, it's just proving my point. Why in the heck did they sell such an inadequate product? Why didn't they wait until they had something of higher quality before putting these things on the market? Doesn't this just prove that they are interested in sales over quality? And why are you so satisfied with having paid so much for such a poor product? Because it's better than the competition does not make it good. There is a concept I think a lot of you fail to grasp.

'Inadequate'... If you feel that strongly against the Cybook, whyinsamhell did you bother to buy one? First, the Cybook was released, what, three months ago? That means it's still first-generation for the software - Version 1.0! Second, all of the currently-available-in-the-US e-ink readers are, at the e-ink display level, 'first-generation'. That means any person buying one is clearly in the 'innovator' or 'early-adopter' category. Yet here you are behaving as if you are a 'mainstream' or 'late-adopter' who demands perfection from the get-go. Sorry, but you can't be an 'early-adopter' of new technology and demand 'late-adopter' perfection from what you're buying.


I wouldn't be so vocal about the flaws if so many people weren't on here singing the praises of how wonderful and perfect it is. I can't believe some of what some people are saying, because I know I'm not lying, and I know I treat my cybook well. So how can it be that some people's product works perfectly when mine doesn't? I want prospective buyers to have a complete picture of what they are getting into so they can make an informed decision that is right for them.

No, you're not lying. But you are ignoring reality to present biased views. The reality is that even the Kindle is a 'first-generation' device (that being the newest gee-whiz e-ink version) and anyone who buys a 'first-generation' of any new technology has to expect bugs, kinks and flaws in the operation of same. We do point out the flaws, but we don't try to paint it as a complete rip-off and abdication of developer responsibility - which is, even if you don't use those words, exactly what you're doing.

Derek

Because when you licence a product from someone you're generally not allowed to make ad hoc changes to it. When Bookeen licenced the rights to implement the MobiPocket Reader on the Gen3 they probably had to produce a product that performed to the specs and algorithms that Mobi supplied them with - bugs and all.

You are making excuses. I refuse to believe that they are not allowed to implement a working goto page.

I think that my experiment with the Windows Mobi Reader shows that this behaviour is "generic" to all versions of the product. I can only assume that there is a rational explanation for this, such as Mobi specifying to a licensee what can and cannot be changed. As you say, it would have been reasonable for Bookeen's programmers to have changed this blindingly obvious flaw had they been able to. Therefore, there must have been a reason that they did not. I don't believe them to be incompetent.

Which part?

I think the "typical reader" expects more from an expensive product than they do from a free one, and I think it's completly valid.

I also think the "typical reader" is going to assume, by looking at what's presented, that they are calculating page numbers and offering to send you to a specific page. They would assume that because that's exactly what it looks like.

The typical reader is going to assume that a 'new' technology is going to have bugs, kinks and flaws. Witness Windows 1.0, 2.01, 3.0, 95, 98, ME, NT, XP and Vista. There's a saying - perhaps you've heard it - "Never buy 1.0 of *anything*." There's an addendum to that. "But if you do, expect you'll have to pay more and live with the bugs until they get fixed." Now just what part of that do you have a problem understanding? You CHOSE to buy the Cybook when it was in it's first generation. You didn't have to.


I have not demanded that they be as close to mobireader as possible, although it would be an improvement if they were more like it. Nor am I bitching and moaning that they are. Mobipocket Desktop Reader was free AND it works better. Granted the cybook offers features the desktop reader doesn't. Do you always spend your money like it's water? Some of us don't appreciate spending a lot of money on things that don't work correctly (and don't underestimate the importance of poor customer service). In fact, it's possible that the "typical reader" cares about the product they get for the money. Even assuming that most people don't care how they spend their money and what they get for it, some people do, and it's completely valid. Just because a feature is unimportant to you, doesn't make it unimportant.

But YOU are NOT a typical customer. You chose to buy a Cybook when it was 'first genertion'. You chose to be an 'early-adopter'. You chose, despite knowing all this and making these prior choices, to then bitch and moan over minor inconveniences as if they were the worst possible failures! That is what makes your most recent posts on this nothing more than bitching and moaning while distorting reality.

No, that is not Bookeen's position, nor is it Not Another E-Book's. That opinion is solely mine. And I'm not wasting any further time on what you have to say about this.

Derek

'Inadequate'... If you feel that strongly against the Cybook, whyinsamhell did you bother to buy one? First, the Cybook was released, what, three months ago? That means it's still first-generation for the software - Version 1.0! Second, all of the currently-available-in-the-US e-ink readers are, at the e-ink display level, 'first-generation'. That means any person buying one is clearly in the 'innovator' or 'early-adopter' category. Yet here you are behaving as if you are a 'mainstream' or 'late-adopter' who demands perfection from the get-go. Sorry, but you can't be an 'early-adopter' of new technology and demand 'late-adopter' perfection from what you're buying.

No, you're not lying. But you are ignoring reality to present biased views. The reality is that even the Kindle is a 'first-generation' device (that being the newest gee-whiz e-ink version) and anyone who buys a 'first-generation' of any new technology has to expect bugs, kinks and flaws in the operation of same. We do point out the flaws, but we don't try to paint it as a complete rip-off and abdication of developer responsibility - which is, even if you don't use those words, exactly what you're doing.

Derek

That's funny. I'm pretty sure you're the one ignoring reality.

I think that my experiment with the Windows Mobi Reader shows that this behaviour is "generic" to all versions of the product. I can only assume that there is a rational explanation for this, such as Mobi specifying to a licensee what can and cannot be changed. As you say, it would have been reasonable for Bookeen's programmers to have changed this blindingly obvious flaw had they been able to. Therefore, there must have been a reason that they did not. I don't believe them to be incompetent.

You are trying to find explanations to something that I am convinced of is just that they did not have time (or money to hire more people) to do it.
Or they just do the minimal thing they can get away with and still earn the same amount of money.

You are trying to find explanations to something that I am convinced of is just that they did not have time (or money to hire more people) to do it.
Or they just do the minimal thing they can get away with and still earn the same amount of money.

Yes, you're right. As a scientist I do try to look for rational explanations for observed phenomena. Perhaps you're right and they just decided to leave it as it is. We can only speculate.

I'm going to stick my neck out, however, and predict that this behaviour will NOT be changed in the forthcoming firmware update.

You are trying to find explanations to something that I am convinced of is just that they did not have time (or money to hire more people) to do it.
Or they just do the minimal thing they can get away with and still earn the same amount of money.

I'm presuming it's the time/money/people more than anything else. I may be wrong, but given that Sony, Amazon, Hanlin and iRex are also all struggling to iron out bugs, upgrade and add features and keep current customers happy - although not necessarily with page-numbering/page-determination issues, I think this is a reasonable presumption.

But, while I'm far more patient than some who own current-generation e-ink devices, I will probably start losing patience if features I need aren't added or fixed.

For me, page-numbering is not critical. Clearly, for others it is. And I would urge Bookeen to clear up the issue.

However, I would like to note that this tempest-in-a-teapot only really flared into a complaint here on MR in the past few days. Folks, whether it is an important issue or not, the lead time for fixing it is going to be longer than part of one week.

Further, we all, whether we like it or not, whether we believe it or not, are, at the very least 'early-adopters'. That means by choosing to buy our e-ink devices so early in the e-ink life-cycle, we have to accept that we will have to suffer through the bug-fix and 'upgrade' cycle until a more stable (yes, there's still a page-numbering and bookmarking bug), and more feature-laden firmware comes along.

Demanding 'instant' bug fixes is unreasonable. Demanding 'instant' bug-fixes for bugs that only impact a tiny portion of the customer base - and no one has convinced me that the page-numbering/page-determination bug is all that critical - is both unreasonable and delusional, IMO. Bookmarking is somewhat more important. A working, rational folder navigation system is far more important. Eliminating the file-corruption if one accidentally disconnects without using 'safely remove hardware' is CRITICAL. (Most users are not going to be that observant of this - just ask your favorite older aunt or grandparent if they remember to do so.)

Just my humble opinion. And if you disagree, that's okay by me.

Derek

Yes, you're right. As a scientist I do try to look for rational explanations for observed phenomena. Perhaps you're right and they just decided to leave it as it is. We can only speculate.

I'm going to stick my neck out, however, and predict that this behaviour will NOT be changed in the forthcoming firmware update.

You know, as a scientist you should prefer the simplest explanation and I think mine is the more simple. That is an easy predicition to do since it cost them less money to do nothing.

Demanding 'instant' bug fixes is unreasonable. Demanding 'instant' bug-fixes for bugs that only impact a tiny portion of the customer base - and no one has convinced me that the page-numbering/page-determination bug is all that critical - is both unreasonable and delusional, IMO. Bookmarking is somewhat more important. A working, rational folder navigation system is far more important. Eliminating the file-corruption if one accidentally disconnects without using 'safely remove hardware' is CRITICAL. (Most users are not going to be that observant of this - just ask your favorite older aunt or grandparent if they remember to do so.)


Well, they are not instant. And I would be happy with page number indicator because I can probably learn how it behaves and it will be useful and they have had 6 months to fix this.

I wonder if they can do something about the file corruption thing. One thing night be to move the bookmark information files to the internal disk. Also move the system files to the internal invisible disk. The problem is that file corruption can cause the unit not to boot or cause bookmarks not working.

You know, as a scientist you should prefer the simplest explanation and I think mine is the more simple. That is an easy predicition to do since it cost them less money to do nothing.

Doing nothing when they're large and unwieldy, with millions of customers (kinda like Amazon) costs them nothing. Doing nothing while they're small and have just a few thousands of customers - that's called 'screwing your Goodwill'. And I do not think that Bookeen would do this. I grant that this does happen with small firms, but I am quite willing to presume this is not the case, yet.

Derek

Well, they are not instant. And I would be happy with page number indicator because I can probably learn how it behaves and it will be useful and they have had 6 months to fix this.

I wonder if they can do something about the file corruption thing. One thing night be to move the bookmark information files to the internal disk. Also move the system files to the internal invisible disk. The problem is that file corruption can cause the unit not to boot or cause bookmarks not working.


Yep. That's why I listed the file-corruption issue as critical.

Derek

Doing nothing when they're large and unwieldy, with millions of customers (kinda like Amazon) costs them nothing. Doing nothing while they're small and have just a few thousands of customers - that's called 'screwing your Goodwill'. And I do not think that Bookeen would do this. I grant that this does happen with small firms, but I am quite willing to presume this is not the case, yet.


Well, they are already screwing their Goodwill by not answering emails, not updating the blog and not respecting the GPL. So why change?

Well, they are already screwing their Goodwill by not answering emails, not updating the blog and not respecting the GPL. So why change?

I can second that.

I've read ebooks on my Cybook that were shorter (and more interesting) than this thread, even without page numbers.:eek:

To myself I say, "Don't feed the trolls!"

I've read ebooks on my Cybook that were shorter (and more interesting) than this thread, even without page numbers.:eek:

To myself I say, "Don't feed the trolls!"

Did you read them twice? :P

Or go here

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22492

Did you read them twice? :P

Three times! But her file system corrupted and she forgot one of the readings! :D :D :D

Derek

Well, they are already screwing their Goodwill by not answering emails, not updating the blog and not respecting the GPL. So why change?

I agree with you about the blog updates. And the not answering emails on these subjects. However, we don't know the circumstances behind their contracts with either Mobipocket or their hardware supplier, so it isn't fair if the GPL vs. the contracts is in conflict to put all the blame on Bookeen.

Derek

Wow, this thread got pretty intense.

No, what you're thinking of, I think, is that the Gen3's Mobi reader is not the portable Java version that Mobi wrote which, for example, the iLiad directly uses. The Gen3 doesn't have a JVM; its code is all written in C or C++, I think.
They used gcj to compile Java sources into native ARM code. And all Mobipocket class names are the same as in other implementation, so they did use classes provided by Mobi.

I thought I'd make a comment about the way Mobi does the funny paging. My understanding is that this is due to the fact that the format originalted on Palm devices and all the constraints imposed by that. It seems that to speed up the handling of long ebooks, the text is stored in the Mobi file in chunks that are decompressed on the fly when reading. Only a specific chunk of text is decompressed at a time, which is the cause of the paging problem when you jump a huge distance in the file. This is especially bad when you jump backwards, as others have noted.

So, if Bookeen implemented the Mobi way of doing things (which it seems they did), then the Cybook is going to have the same problem as any other Mobi reader software, on any platform. As to whether they are allowed to implement this differently, only they know for sure.

This just points out one more reason to move away from archaic ebook formats like Mobi (and others), which were designed long ago, under different constraints than we have today. Why carry the old baggage forever?

The other thing that is missing from this discussion is the fact that the Cybook handles other ebook formats, not just Mobi. How is the paging issue handled in these other formats by the Cybook software?

I've read ebooks on my Cybook that were shorter (and more interesting) than this thread, even without page numbers.:eek:



Heh.

I also agree with your earlier comment about checking back in this thread to see if there really is any news about the firmware upgrade.... :)

I'm not sure if this is the thread or not, but if it is not, I do apologize.

I did test Mobipocket Reader and the page numbers don't work properly. They only seems to work when paging forward. Jumping to a specific page gives you a completely different place in the book then if you paged forward to what is supposed to be the same page. So yes, HarryT is 100% correct in that page numbers are broken.

I thought I'd make a comment about the way Mobi does the funny paging. My understanding is that this is due to the fact that the format originalted on Palm devices and all the constraints imposed by that. It seems that to speed up the handling of long ebooks, the text is stored in the Mobi file in chunks that are decompressed on the fly when reading. Only a specific chunk of text is decompressed at a time, which is the cause of the paging problem when you jump a huge distance in the file. This is especially bad when you jump backwards, as others have noted.

So, if Bookeen implemented the Mobi way of doing things (which it seems they did), then the Cybook is going to have the same problem as any other Mobi reader software, on any platform. As to whether they are allowed to implement this differently, only they know for sure.

Exactly. And from what I've studied about the Mobi format, it ain't gonna be easy unless Mobi updates their presumptive model on what platform is used. There's tons of PDAs out there which have more memory and better memory handlers. Plus there are the Linux, Mac and Win PC families and now the e-ink devices. Sure, having rigidly-defined 'chunks' for much older PDAs and the cellphones makes sense - but even there Mobi could take a page from, say LZ compression techniques and just have a 'sliding-window' of 'working' text from within the single-file of ebook data.

This just points out one more reason to move away from archaic ebook formats like Mobi (and others), which were designed long ago, under different constraints than we have today. Why carry the old baggage forever?

The other thing that is missing from this discussion is the fact that the Cybook handles other ebook formats, not just Mobi. How is the paging issue handled in these other formats by the Cybook software?

Hmmm... Don't really read much HTML because my source for HTML ebooks tends to put each chapter into it's own HTML file. That's a non-starter for the Cybook at this point. And the few TXT ebooks I've seen are so heavily laden with line-breaks as to make them damn nea unreadable - and we all know the Cybook doesn't do RTF just yet. That leaves PDF. And it does a decent job of 'displaying' the file, but if the PDF ebook isn't pre-formatted for the Cybook, that's just hell to use. And I never get quite the fineness of control of font sizes.

Now if someone - anyone - would just port FBReader over to a Cybook, that might be a non-DRM alternative. (Of course, if someone *were* to port FBReader over, could they implement the Pukall PC1 cipher decryption module so's to allow for reading Secure Mobi? The module ain't that complex.)

Derek

I'm not sure if this is the thread or not, but if it is not, I do apologize.

I did test Mobipocket Reader and the page numbers don't work properly. They only seems to work when paging forward. Jumping to a specific page gives you a completely different place in the book then if you paged forward to what is supposed to be the same page. So yes, HarryT is 100% correct in that page numbers are broken.

It is indeed in the thread, Jon - but easily overlooked among everything else. I reported that paging forward to a particular point in the book (in my case, the start of chapter 4) resulted in the book being on page 52, but then going back to the start of the book and doing a "goto page 52" took me to a different place, from which I had to page back 14 pages to get back to what had previous been shown as page 52, but which had now become page 38.

That's why I believe that page numbers are pretty useless on Mobi devices, and hence Bookeen's decision not to display them is a rational one.

Hmmm... Don't really read much HTML because my source for HTML ebooks tends to put each chapter into it's own HTML file.
Derek

I thought that the Cybook could handle a bunch of Zipped HTML files. If you want a single HTML of an ebook, just explode the Mobi version of Woodcraft from my home page. I did that as a single file, although I probably should have used separate files.

If you would like a text file without the short-line breaks, I can email you a text copy of Woodcraft (or does the PM function allow attachements?). The copy I submitted to PG is wrapped at 76 characters, as that is how they want them. I still have an un-wrapped copy.

It will be interesting to see how things are handled when epub is added to the Cybook.

The other thing that is missing from this discussion is the fact that the Cybook handles other ebook formats, not just Mobi. How is the paging issue handled in these other formats by the Cybook software?

I tested with a text file and it handled it very badly and gave a totally wrong total page count (it said 17 but the page count was around 100).

Exactly. And from what I've studied about the Mobi format, it ain't gonna be easy unless Mobi updates their presumptive model on what platform is used. There's tons of PDAs out there which have more memory and better memory handlers. Plus there are the Linux, Mac and Win PC families and now the e-ink devices. Sure, having rigidly-defined 'chunks' for much older PDAs and the cellphones makes sense - but even there Mobi could take a page from, say LZ compression techniques and just have a 'sliding-window' of 'working' text from within the single-file of ebook data.


That is how it works now. The records is just an implementation detail and of course you have to decode a set of records to display the text. It is not that property that is the problem. The problem is that you have to render the whole document to get the page breaks. But that might be relatively fast. Look at TeX/LaTeX that render to get page breaks rather fast.

That is how it works now. The records is just an implementation detail and of course you have to decode a set of records to display the text. It is not that property that is the problem. The problem is that you have to render the whole document to get the page breaks. But that might be relatively fast. Look at TeX/LaTeX that render to get page breaks rather fast.


Maybe I'm just dense. :(

Look, the easiest way to count pages in "text" is to have a loop that counts characters and line-returns. If X characters (this is depending upon the font and size chosen) are counted before hitting a line-return, one (1) unit is added to the line count and the character count is restarted. But if a line-return is hit before the character count hits the 'magic value', the line-count is incremented and the character count is zeroed. Keep doing that until every displayable character is read. Oh wait. Add in a section to do the same as the line-return initiates whenever a page-break character string is found. I note that one doesn't have to 'render' anything as long as a lookup table is created and kept for the 'magic numbers' for each font family on the Cybook. Those metrics can just be plugged in to the page-count algorithm and off we go.

As for HTML, it's not as if we don't have pretty darned good parsers out there to scan through the files and 'count' the displayable characters, so the same would apply. Do I understand correctly that Mobigen turns the input files into HTML before sticking it in the PRC container? Seems easy enough without having to actually 'render' the display. And we all know that at this time the Cybook just displays ONE font family/size at a time, so that means we don't have to do fancy footwork around multiple sizes and fonts to do this counting.

But then, I've been out of the programming racket for a few years. :)

Derek

Do I understand correctly that Mobigen turns the input files into HTML before sticking it in the PRC container?

Yes, a Mobi book is HTML (with a few custom tags) encapsulated in a PRC "wrapper".

But why would it? It's certainly never done so in my 6 months-odd of owning it. Even when I had the annoying bug of the machine rebooting or hanging when looking up words in the dictionary, it still remembered what page it had been on!

Might this be related to the issue that some people have with losing bookmarks, I wonder? A dodgy SD card? Corrupted file system?

This is certainly an excellent question. I've had my Cybook for a few weeks now and it "lost my place" when I turned in on quite frequently. As a matter of fact, I had this problem the very first day I started reading on the Cybook. At the time I was copying books directly to the Cybook's memory (I have a Mac so no syncing for me). Now I copy books directly to an SD card using a card reader. I haven't had any problems since I started doing that. And it is related to the bookmark problem in some way because I decided to start bookmarking my place before I turned off the Cybook and discovered that the bookmarks didn't work all the time either. When I couldn't make a bookmark was when the Cybook would lose my place.

Maybe I'm just dense. :(

Look, the easiest way to count pages in "text" is to have a loop that counts characters and line-returns. If X characters (this is depending upon the font and size chosen) are counted before hitting a line-return, one (1) unit is added to the line count and the character count is restarted. But if a line-return is hit before the character count hits the 'magic value', the line-count is incremented and the character count is zeroed. Keep doing that until every displayable character is read. Oh wait. Add in a section to do the same as the line-return initiates whenever a page-break character string is found. I note that one doesn't have to 'render' anything as long as a lookup table is created and kept for the 'magic numbers' for each font family on the Cybook. Those metrics can just be plugged in to the page-count algorithm and off we go.

As for HTML, it's not as if we don't have pretty darned good parsers out there to scan through the files and 'count' the displayable characters, so the same would apply. Do I understand correctly that Mobigen turns the input files into HTML before sticking it in the PRC container? Seems easy enough without having to actually 'render' the display. And we all know that at this time the Cybook just displays ONE font family/size at a time, so that means we don't have to do fancy footwork around multiple sizes and fonts to do this counting.

But then, I've been out of the programming racket for a few years. :)

Derek

I really do not know what you are not understanding.

The current algorithm seems just to count characters and they count markup characters and characters in the <head> that is not displayed. To be able to count lines in an html file you have to render it in some way.

Remember also that the Cybook can read html files.

This is certainly an excellent question. I've had my Cybook for a few weeks now and it "lost my place" when I turned in on quite frequently. As a matter of fact, I had this problem the very first day I started reading on the Cybook. At the time I was copying books directly to the Cybook's memory (I have a Mac so no syncing for me). Now I copy books directly to an SD card using a card reader. I haven't had any problems since I started doing that. And it is related to the bookmark problem in some way because I decided to start bookmarking my place before I turned off the Cybook and discovered that the bookmarks didn't work all the time either. When I couldn't make a bookmark was when the Cybook would lose my place.

It is most probably because of a corrupt file system that these problems occur. The problem is that nearly all people having these problems seems to be people that do now know so much about computers or are afraid to test things beacause it has been nearly impossible to get somebody with the problem to confirm that the file system is corrupt.

I really do not know what you are not understanding.

The current algorithm seems just to count characters and they count markup characters and characters in the <head> that is not displayed. To be able to count lines in an html file you have to render it in some way.

Remember also that the Cybook can read html files.

Why? I mean a good html parser module can be used to ignore any <metadata>, <title>, etc. sections while just counting the displayed characters. That's one of the reasons why html parsers were created.

And to state that the Cybook can read html files ignores the 800-pound-gorilla - that it can't handle external links. This isn't a problem with monolithic html ebooks, but is a real pain-in-the-ass for multi-file html ebooks.

Derek

Why? I mean a good html parser module can be used to ignore any <metadata>, <title>, etc. sections while just counting the displayed characters. That's one of the reasons why html parsers were created.


Why are companies releasing sub standard programs? You have to ask them. I also find it extremely strange that they have not implemented it better since as you say there are a lot of support available for this.



And to state that the Cybook can read html files ignores the 800-pound-gorilla - that it can't handle external links. This isn't a problem with monolithic html ebooks, but is a real pain-in-the-ass for multi-file html ebooks.


My purpose was just to remind about that since you asked about html in prc files. Event if html was not used in prc files the page number thing should work for html files.

It is indeed in the thread, Jon - but easily overlooked among everything else. I reported that paging forward to a particular point in the book (in my case, the start of chapter 4) resulted in the book being on page 52, but then going back to the start of the book and doing a "goto page 52" took me to a different place, from which I had to page back 14 pages to get back to what had previous been shown as page 52, but which had now become page 38.

That's why I believe that page numbers are pretty useless on Mobi devices, and hence Bookeen's decision not to display them is a rational one.
After seeing the bug in action, I really think Bookeen should do away with goto page as it only inflames people to want to see page numbers which are useless since they don't work. If they worked, then yes, displaying them is a very good idea. But since they are broken, just ignore them.

Basically to count lines/characters, the Gen3 would have to internally render each page to be able to do so. It's going to kill a lot of the battery doing so.

Why are companies releasing sub standard programs? You have to ask them. I also find it extremely strange that they have not implemented it better since as you say there are a lot of support available for this.

I guess we're going to have to differ on what constitutes "sub-standard". In my opinion, any first-generation hardware/firmware implementation which delivers - I'd say - 80%-85% of the feature set is not "sub-standard". Now if this were a third-generation device with firmware up to Version 5 or 6, I'd be right with you on this.


My purpose was just to remind about that since you asked about html in prc files. Event if html was not used in prc files the page number thing should work for html files.

You've got a point there. But then, page numbering doesn't work in HTML for web browsers. (At least, not all the time in all web browsers.) :)

Derek

After seeing the bug in action, I really think Bookeen should do away with goto page as it only inflames people to want to see page numbers which are useless since they don't work. If they worked, then yes, displaying them is a very good idea. But since they are broken, just ignore them.

I think the best think is to call it "position" or something like that and do like FBReader and do not map 1 position to one page forward.

It is most probably because of a corrupt file system that these problems occur. The problem is that nearly all people having these problems seems to be people that do now know so much about computers or are afraid to test things beacause it has been nearly impossible to get somebody with the problem to confirm that the file system is corrupt.

I agree that a corrupt file system makes sense since I have not had the problem since I moved my books to an SD card. If the file system is corrupt, how did it get that way? As I said, this problem cropped up the very first day I used the device. All I did was copy books into the eBook folder and I always ejected the device before unplugging it.

How would you suggest verifying that it is a corrupt file system?

Basically to count lines/characters, the Gen3 would have to internally render each page to be able to do so. It's going to kill a lot of the battery doing so.

And it would have to rerender each and every page every time you changed fonts, either size or type. In addition it would have to store this data for every page somewhere. Eventually it might have a particular book paginated well enough to read it but it would cost a lot of time and battery power.

The other choice is to map the page number to something that doesn't have to change all the time such as original page in the paper version (no place in the eBook for this data in mobipocket format) or paragraph number or like amazon does - every 128 bytes.

Dale

How would you suggest verifying that it is a corrupt file system?

In Linux I would run fsck on the file system. There are similar tools for Windows and they are probably named Scandisk, Chkdsk or Fsck. Google on "fsck Windows" and it will give you relevant information.

And it would have to rerender each and every page every time you changed fonts, either size or type. In addition it would have to store this data for every page somewhere. Eventually it might have a particular book paginated well enough to read it but it would cost a lot of time and battery power.
Dale

Microsoft manages to do this on PDAs with their LIT reader software, so it is doable on battery powered devices. Admittedly the reader only allows font size changes and not font face. The software does this paging in the background when you load the ebook. The only time you would notice it is if you loaded a very long ebook and immediately tried to jump to some page near the end before the pagination was finished.

After seeing the bug in action, I really think Bookeen should do away with goto page as it only inflames people to want to see page numbers which are useless since they don't work. If they worked, then yes, displaying them is a very good idea. But since they are broken, just ignore them.

They still provide a useful facility for going to an approximate position in a book. Without the "goto page", for example, there would be no way to go, say, half way through a book without paging through it a page at a time.

The goto option works fine on PDF files since PDF files do not dynamically repaginate. It is an option that I use all the time with PDF files I read on the Cybook.

Sorry to go back on topic! :P

Harry's original post from Bookeen support said it'd be available the first week in April.

I had assumed that the first week in April would probably end up being next week, seeing as how this one started on the 30th or 31st of March (depending if you believe the week starts on a Sunday or Monday)

I'm not sure what the standard definition of the first week is though.

Is it the first week already, or is that next week?

I assume they mean the first 7 days in April. I'm sort of expecting it to be released on Monday (7th April).

I assume they mean the first 7 days in April. I'm sort of expecting it to be released on Monday (7th April).

Sorry, but this is the first week in April. And it should (as in that's what I wish to happen, we've certainly waited long enough and I'm bouncing off the walls in frustration) either be in our hands as of the end of business today, or before the beginning of business on Monday - that would be 'business day' as of Paris, France.

Whether it shows up today, I couldn't begin to predict. It would be nice to have it in the next few hours. :)

Derek

It's nearly 11pm in Paris. I think you're being a little optimistic expecting it tonight :).

I assume they mean the first 7 days in April. I'm sort of expecting it to be released on Monday (7th April).

I think most people would assume 'the first week' to mean the first period of the calendar mont ending at the first weekend. If we go with the assumption of the exact first seven days, we might as well go with the first seven business days. That would allow Bookeen to fudge until April 9th. :(

Derek

It's nearly 11pm in Paris. I think you're being a little optimistic expecting it tonight :).

I know. And the walls are looking a tad banged up. :)

Derek

It's pool season here in Florida, and as I feared my Nokia N800 is useless outside. So I'll probably be shopping for an e-ink device. However, I consider folder support to be essential, so I hope that Bookeen includes it in the firmware update.

One thing I noticed in browsing their site was no downloads of the Linux OS available. ASFAIK, this is a violation of the GPL (Gnu Public License).

I think most people would assume 'the first week' to mean the first period of the calendar mont ending at the first weekend. If we go with the assumption of the exact first seven days, we might as well go with the first seven business days. That would allow Bookeen to fudge until April 9th. :(

Derek

A business week is only 5 days long, Monday through Friday, not 9. Otherwise you wouldn't even have 4 weeks in a Month.

Dale

Well, I can wait. Apart from the fact my Cybook works fine and the only reason I'd change to the new firmware is folder support.... I've got completely sidetracked and I'm now playing with Foobar2000, FLACs, Rockbox and working out how to encode into aoTuv. And why? All because I took all my books up the loft and stuck em all in a box, likely forever, and decided to do the same with my CDs as well.

It's pool season here in Florida, and as I feared my Nokia N800 is useless outside. So I'll probably be shopping for an e-ink device. However, I consider folder support to be essential, so I hope that Bookeen includes it in the firmware update.

One thing I noticed in browsing their site was no downloads of the Linux OS available. ASFAIK, this is a violation of the GPL (Gnu Public License).

I think the Jetbook has folder support. I am working on getting a review unit.

BOb

One thing I noticed in browsing their site was no downloads of the Linux OS available. ASFAIK, this is a violation of the GPL (Gnu Public License).

This has been discussed at length elsewhere. Apparently the company who actually manufacture the CyBook (which is most likely to be a company called "Netronix") won't give it to them :(.

I think most people would assume 'the first week' to mean the first period of the calendar mont ending at the first weekend. If we go with the assumption of the exact first seven days, we might as well go with the first seven business days. That would allow Bookeen to fudge until April 9th. :(

Derek

I'd say that stretching the definition of the first week of April a bit. :) We might as well assume that Bookeen is functioning on the short-lived French revolutionary calender that features a 10-day week. :chinscratch:

But seriously Bookeen doesn’t really have a stellar reputation of meeting the deadlines they hint at. That's probably why they never set a firm date.

I'm expecting the new firmware somewhere between now and the end June. And unless somebody starts a massive distributed computing project that statistically determines the most likely release date, I'm not getting my hopes up for any specific date.

French revolutionary calender that features a 10-day week. :chinscratch:

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday...

HouseworkDay
EatMoreFruitAndVegetablesAndGetSomeExerciseDay
SortOutTheFinancesDay

Because I'm not getting those 3 days, that's why I've not been doing those things.

This has been discussed at length elsewhere. Apparently the company who actually manufacture the CyBook (which is most likely to be a company called "Netronix") won't give it to them :(.

Thanks, I'm reading that thread now.

Perhaps Bookeen meant the first week of next April

All good things come to those who wait :)

I've had my Cybook just over a week now and have completed two large books. The current firmware seems pretty solid, and is largely ok for the task of reading (Thats all I use it for).

It seems that the two most wanted features would be page numbers, and directory support.

As far as i'm concerned page numbers aren't neccessary. The only time i've had to use them, or will ever use them is when my bookmarks disappear. When I had this problem it did seem to be directly related to a problem with the SDcard and seems ok now.
It is important to me to have an idea of where I am in a book, even if just to give me an idea of when I need to be looking for my next one. I would hate to be out somewhere and realise that I had nothing to read. In this case the pageometer works fine.
When I had the bookmark problem then the pagenumber may have been useful, but I doubt it, even reading a paper book, page numbers are not something I pay attention to. If I ever loose my place then I usually end up flicking through until I find where I was upto. It's just much slower on a cybook. For this reason the bookmarks need to be 100% reliable.
Maybe for those who insist they need a number at the bottom of the page, a percentage would suffice.

As for folders, I've only had my cybook a week so it's not an issue for me at the moment. It likely depends on how you use the cybook.
In my case I have a collection of books that I have read many times, and will read many times more. I would expect over the next couple of years to buy many of these for my Cybook and eventually this would cause me issues. Paging through 100 pages of books at cybook speed doesnt sound like much fun.
Cybook obviously intended for large libraries to be kept on these devices by including the 2GB expansion. This being the case then the library could be better, although not necessarily through the use of folders. A possible alternative could be to have a more three dimensional database where a person could browse by genre, author, year, etc
If Author was selected then the library page would show only Authors, and only when an Author was selected then would a list of books by the selected author be displayed. This would be a true library feature, unlike the present which merely displays all available media.

Even if a better library(or support for folders) wasn't ever to be included it wouldn't be the end of the world. I would keep maybe 10 books at a time on my Cybook and keep everything else on my PC. Would save me worrying about bookmaks being saved on my SD card, because I wouldnt need one. The lack of this feature however could ultimately take me away from Cybook to another company that makes or starts to make E.Ink reading devices that do include this feature.