Today I was lucky enough to need to drive down over to a town with a Borders that carries and has a demo version of the Sony PRS505. I of course had my Nokia N800 with me. :)

FYI, I don't read technical docs or graphically intensive docs on my readers...just novels and websites. And never ever PDF's as, well, I don't like PDF's on ANY platform. :rolleyes: Annnnnyway....

Since I had already tried out the Sony PRS500 last year and actually liked it, I had not thought of actually comparing the devices until I remembered the demo device in the store ...I had liked the older PRS500 when I tried it alone even if the display seemed a bit weak. I knew the Vizplex version was either out already or due out very soon so it was bound to be improved...d'oh! maybe not so much...

On my Nokia I am running the only ebook reader app we really have that runs under the native ITOS2008 operating system that being FBReader. I actually love FBR most days... ;)

Display size: Of course the Sony is MUCH BIGGER and wins here hands down. But I have to say when compared to the N800, set to about the same font size as on the Sony (32px on the N800), the display on the PRS505 is much dimmer than I remember when I looked at PRS500 by itself. I found the text on the N800 significantly sharper and crisper than that of the PRS505. I was both surprised and, well, disappointed.

I use FBR in 'portrait mode' so page layout was similar. I also setup the background under FBR to be close to an off-white almost beige/tan color similar to a parchment color. To my eye the contrast on the Sony was extremely poor in comparison to the N800. I suspect the same would hold true for the Kindle.

Of course the PRS505 shows more info on each page. But I was surprised to find the N800 has much crisper text and is significantly easier on my eyes to read. After using FBR's setup/config options I can easily hold the N800 in one hand while reading.

I actually found the Sony Reader not very comfy to use. The lack of a touch screen being the second most significant issue. The first was
Anyway, I just found it much more difficult to read on the Sony display. I think it is the contrast ratio of the eink displays is simply not up to where I had hoped/expected of this generation of eink devices.

I found the lack of a touch screen on a modern device disturbing. Again I would imagine I would feel the same about the Kindle. Though I think I could become accustom to the way the Sony system navigates in short order. I found I could switch hands holding the device and still navigate (as in change pages) pretty easily. Still the nav system felt odd in comparison.

In my daily use of either my Sony nx73v Clie or the Nokia N800 I actually keep the brightness turned down to exactly where my eyes relax for the ambient lighting. I found no option to adjust the contrast on the Sony. Is that there anywhere? I would hope it is...

For example for most conditions I use only 2/5 bars of brightness on the N800. To be completely honest, after about 30-mins of reading the PRS505 today, my eyes felt much more fatigued by the eink display when compared with using either my nx73v or my N800 under the same conditions. My two devices use different LCD display tech but are, in reality much easier on my eyes. This really did surprise me.

Now if the contrast can be adjusted on the eink readers then perhaps the eink devices are nicer then today's side-by-side showed me. Basically, for me, unless the eink based display's allow user adjusted contrast ratio's, today's real world comparison gave me pause when considering an eink device. I am pretty convinced it will be best to wait at least a year maybe longer. I find the Sony navigation system clunky, though in fairness I find the nav system in FBReader when in 'portrait mode' kinda-sorta clunky too, usable but awkward. Though FBR had a significant improvement this past week when they added the ability to pick-up the meta-data for many formats. Thus creating a much nicer library list w/o many manual adjustments needed.

I think in reality when comparing devices like dedicated ereader devices with other non-ebook dedicated devices it breaks down to maybe two distance areas. The first being the displays and the second being the "reader software" portion of each device.

I am hoping I simply missed finding the config settings on the PRS505 today. But if I didn't then I know I would also not be pleased with a Kindle/Cybook/iLiad/etc...and that is based on the lack of contrast in the displays themselves.

Anyway, I still think the Sony PRS505 is about as sexy a reading device as one might want...only problem is I find it to be pretty but sorta empty headed in terms of my personal comfort level.

So, for now, just looking at the reader & display sides of the equations and given my very simple unsophisticated reading needs, my N800 easily wins (I had actually been considering selling it and replacing with a Kindle this week.) My nx73v comes in a very, very....VERY close 2nd with eink displays placing a distant 3rd out of three horses in the race. And I guess I won't sell my new N800 just yet and will wait for the 3rd or 4th gen eink devices. The 2nd gen eink just did not exactly "...blow my skirt...", unless of course I want to read outside on my deck, then again I have my nx73v for that.

Anyway, just my observations given my chance to compare these things side by side today....I am very likely FOS but hey, someone has to be... ;)

Thanks for well-thought comparison, it's good to hear from people who use both.

I don't imagine the contrast on any eink device will be adjustable, the only way to do that would be to use the grey levels available to fake it.

What kills the LCD devices for me is size and battery life - you can only have one at a time, and often not much of either. 2 hours is a joke, even 12 hours is not very useful unless it can plug into mains power with a very small, portable adapter. And the 505 is limited in screen size from my point of view - I'd rather shrink the bottom buttons in favour of another 30-40mm of screen. So while I'd appreciate more contrast on the 505, I wouldn't trade it for any of the LCD devices I've yet seen.

There is no way to change the contrast. If adjustment is needed, the typical approach is to change the text size. I like a bolder font, which is no problem for FBReader but not possible for the Kindle or for the iLiad with MobiPocket Reader.

I switched from a Nokia 770 to an iLiad (still using FBReader) as my primary reading device. If the line spacing was adjustable I might switch again to my Kindle, but perhaps not because an 8" screen really is better than 6" for reading. I still recommend the Nokia tablets, particularly if portability or casual internet access is a requirement. The other area where the color screen is a big plus is illustrated books (e.g. SciFi magazines). Also, the Nokia screen is almost exactly half the size of the 6" Kindle/Sony screen. In its usual landscape mode, it is the same width as the Kindle in portrait mode but half as high. So the reading experience is similar except there are twice as many page advances (which take no time at all on the LCD screen).

There is no way to change the contrast. If adjustment is needed, the typical approach is to change the text size. I like a bolder font, which is no problem for FBReader but not possible for the Kindle or for the iLiad with MobiPocket Reader.


It's perhaps worth noting that the Mobi reader on the CyBook Gen3 does offer this capability. It is useful when reading in poor light.

It's perhaps worth noting that the Mobi reader on the CyBook Gen3 does offer this capability. It is useful when reading in poor light.

Yep, the "embolden" feature, as well as user-installable fonts (and more size options) is one of the best things about the Gen3.

I have been reading eBooks on my PDA for years -- the Sony Clie screen was particularly nice. There is no question that a good LCD screen is plenty good enough for reading books, and in some situations will look better than e-Ink.

However, I do find that I prefer the Cybook e-ink screen in most lighting situations. I find that it produces less eyestrain for me, especially since I stare at an LCD monitor for so many hours per day in my work.

Anyone willing to share experience on how the N800/810 performs on displaying A4 size PDFs?

Also, does the N810 with its transflexive screen give a better view than the N800 when used outdoors?

...The lack of a touch screen being the second most significant issue....

...I found the lack of a touch screen on a modern device...

My understanding is that touch screens consume energy even while idle. The reader is built to conserve battery life as much as possible.

Anyone willing to share experience on how the N800/810 performs on displaying A4 size PDFs?

Also, does the N810 with its transflexive screen give a better view than the N800 when used outdoors?

PDF on the Nokia -- don't bother, unless you really need to read a particular PDF and no laptop or desktop PC is available. You will be zooming and scrolling far too much for my taste.

I've never seen the N810, so I can't comment on the screen.

PDF on the Nokia -- don't bother, unless you really need to read a particular PDF and no laptop or desktop PC is available. You will be zooming and scrolling far too much for my taste.

I've never seen the N810, so I can't comment on the screen.

It works for bus time tables or manuals to cameras and similar thing were you just need to lookup something.

......But I have to say when compared to the N800, set to about the same font size as on the Sony (32px on the N800), the display on the PRS505 is much dimmer than I remember when I looked at PRS500 by itself. I found the text on the N800 significantly sharper and crisper than that of the PRS505. I was both surprised and, well, disappointed......

Out of curiosity, what was the lighting (levels) like in the Borders where the Sony was located? In the two Borders near me, one display is located in an area that is not well lit, while the other is right out in the main aisle and very well lit. As it happens, I first saw the Sony at the store without the good lighting and was disappointed in what I saw. But after seeing it at the second store, I was very happy with the display.

It became no surprise to me, after reading the various comments posted here, that the perceived contrast on these e-ink screens is highly dependent upon the ambient lighting.

-Jeff

+1 In my typical reading light the current Visiplex e-ink displays totally crush LCD displays (such as my laptop PC or Palm TX) by having lower effort or strain.

It became no surprise to me, after reading the various comments posted here, that the perceived contrast on these e-ink screens is highly dependent upon the ambient lighting.

-Jeff

EXACTLY. Contrast improves in brighter light for an e-ink display because it's reflective. An lcd display may look 'sharper' than e-ink in so-so light, but for extensive reading, an lcd is NOT easier on the eyes. No way. It may seem 'clearer' when looking at the screens side-by-side, but I use my e-ink device for reading novels, hours at a time. If I had to do this on an lcd, I'd sooner tear my eyeballs out.

To be honest, I get no eye strain at all from looking at my computer's LCD monitor. it's a 20.1" non-widescreen 1600x1200 LCD monitor.

For me it's about the lack of refresh visual noise. If you've ever taken a picture of a LCD display you see what I'm talking about. Somehow all this noise is filtered out somewhere between my optic nerves and (few remaining) brain cells into a stable image. My theory is that it's this noise filtering that generates the fatigue and it's difficult to measure and impacts people differently.

If you compare a progressive scan HDTV image to an interlaced image at the same resolution it's a similar comparison but the e-ink has no refresh. Most people would find the progressive scan is better to look at.

Some LCD displays do a much better job of filtering the noise then others. I haven't seen a Nokia N800 to compare but it sounds like they've done a good job with the display.

To be honest, I get no eye strain at all from looking at my computer's LCD monitor. it's a 20.1" non-widescreen 1600x1200 LCD monitor.

I don't either, and have spent many, many hours reading eBooks on a PDA screen.

However, given the hours I spend each day staring at LCD screens for work, I find the e-ink display a nice change of pace -- and probably better for my moddle-aged eyes, so long as I'm in a spot with good lighting.

Out of curiosity, what was the lighting (levels) like in the Borders where the Sony was located? In the two Borders near me, one display is located in an area that is not well lit, while the other is right out in the main aisle and very well lit. As it happens, I first saw the Sony at the store without the good lighting and was disappointed in what I saw. But after seeing it at the second store, I was very happy with the display.

It became no surprise to me, after reading the various comments posted here, that the perceived contrast on these e-ink screens is highly dependent upon the ambient lighting.

-Jeff

Actually the lighting was good as the display was at the store's "center counter" where you can get help or what not...it's the main help and whatever counter not one of the off in a side isle kiosk/computer stations.

I would say the lighting was what one would find in a typical library or office. Plus the store has large windows though they are tinted and so I don't think they add much lighting.

I can agree with others that are more zealous eink users and supporters, the brighter the lighting the better the contrast would be...so, if I wanted to read outside or even sitting in front of a nice big window eink wins over the N800 hands down.

I will add that "perceived contrast" is everything. Isn't it? The major short coming, perhaps the only real short coming, of eink is the NEED for brighter lighting to increase/improve contrast.

Perhaps because I am more conditioned to inside reading I find the display on both devices I have now at least as easy on my eyes. Eink screens simply are not comfortable to MY eyes. So for those who comment that the eink "blows away" LCD I feel such comments are, perhaps, painting with a bit too broad of a brush.

I do, however hope the next gen of display's will have better contrast in low lighting using either a built in LED lighting system or some other fix.

Sure, I would be OK with a Visplex device but based in screen readability alone, eink is not yet even be close to my first choice...additionally I would need to alter when and where I read to improve the contrast enough to for my eyes. So, everyone is different. And as I suggest to everyone, if possible compare or at least look at an eink device before deciding. It might be better for a fair number or people to wait a few months to a year to see what shakes out by the next CES in Vegas. And do not assume eink is the solution for people with vision issues. Only way to know for sure is to test, and if adding a bright reading lamp improves the contrast then GREAT!! :) Then again a brighter light might not improve contrast enough. Same goes for LCD display's....TEST them for yourself first. I do suggest if you look at LCD devices do try and get a transreflective LCD based device, as it can only help in brighter light. I can read my Clie nx73v with reasonable ease in outdoor conditions. Still, I think an eink reader would be the obviously superior choice for outside in sunlight.

It's just not as cut and dried as one being vastly superior to others because these things are subjective, varying between individuals. It's a shame there really are not many places to compare side by side. At least Amazon and Sony seem to have decent return deals.

So for those who comment that the eink "blows away" LCD I feel such comments are, perhaps, painting with a bit too broad of a brush.

I think that is true; in fact, the expectation of being "blown away" by eInk, fostered by many comments here and elsewhere, led to some disappointment on my part when I finally saw one.

Even so, I did purchase a Cybook and have found that I have come to adjust to the strengths and limitations of eInk. Overall, I like it and prefer it to my Clie for long reading sessions (I love it outdoors, but don't do a huge amount of reading there).

The guy on the desk opposite me at work has a couple of Nokia N800's that he's using in a project at the moment, so I'm pretty familiar with them and the screens.

I'd have to say that comparing an E-ink screen and the widescreen aspect backlit LCD of the N800 is like chalk and cheese. The N800 does have a lovely screen; great for graphics and UI elements, but it's not something I'd want to stare at for hours on end. I've also got high end Dell and Silicon Graphics LCD displays on my desk and even though they are fantastic and a massive improvment over old CRT's with their visible refresh, you will always end up with a certain level of eyestrain because of the backlight and their /seemingly/ imperceptible refresh.

The no-refresh, non-backlit E-ink display is totally different; it has no active lightsource, so it's a much more natural looking image. But it's also unlikely that E-ink technology will be used for anything involving high motion or mainstream gui's in the near future.

I owned an N810 for a bit and used FBReader a lot while I did - actually, FBReader was the hardest thing to give up when I decided to get rid of the N810 becuase of what I felt were flaws in the hardware and OS that were unacceptable in a $400+ device. The N810 is a terrific ebook reader to my eyes, and I could read it for hours on end without problem. When reading on an LCD screen I tend to set the background to black and text to white and find that this makes reading a lot easier.

The downsides of the N800 series for ebook reading, as others have noted, are the battery life and ability to read outdoors. So far the SR 500 I just got is far better on both of those counts. For my reading habits I like being able to charge up my reader once a month and not worry about making sure it's got a fresh charge every morning as I head out the door. And reading in the park, on the beach and other outdoor locations is one of the main reasons I wanted to get an ebook reader, so the SR 500 works best for me. Then again, I don't need a lot of contrast since I started reading ebooks on a Palm III, and the SR 500 reminds me of that experience.

I own both a sony 505 and a nokia n800.

I used the n800 extensively as an ebook reader before I got my sony. I find the sony far easier to read off of. Way less strain on my eyes overtime. I work on computers all day, every day. I have worked on computers for over 12 years, and it has damaged my eyes. The lack of a refresh in the display of the e-ink is a god send to me. The n800 also didn't hold comfortably like a book.

As some one said its chalk and cheese. Dont' get an ebook reader for an internet tablet, and don't get an internet tablet strictly for an ebook. The ability to read books off the nokia is nice for short amounts of time. However, where I can "curl up" with my sony reader for hours, I can't handle the n800 for more than 30 minutes or so.

I don't have a problem with reading on my computer (which has an LCD screen). However, I probably wouldn't have gotten a Cybook if the experience wasn't so similar to reading an actual paper book...

But, while reading at the computer may not be a problem, it's got you stuck at your desk to read. With a PRD you can read on the go and away from your desk. That's what I like about my 505 is the ability to not be stuck reading at my desk to read.

But, while reading at the computer may not be a problem, it's got you stuck at your desk to read. With a PRD you can read on the go and away from your desk. That's what I like about my 505 is the ability to not be stuck reading at my desk to read.

Absolutely. And true for me even though I have a TabletPC -- while I can read away from a desk, I can't read for all that long due to battery life. For technical/professional reading (largely PDFs), a PC or the tablet is preferred. For leisure/pleasure reading, I prefer my Cybook or even my PDA.

I owned an N810 for a bit and used FBReader a lot while I did - actually, FBReader was the hardest thing to give up when I decided to get rid of the N810 becuase of what I felt were flaws in the hardware and OS that were unacceptable in a $400+ device. The N810 is a terrific ebook reader to my eyes, and I could read it for hours on end without problem. When reading on an LCD screen I tend to set the background to black and text to white and find that this makes reading a lot easier.

The downsides of the N800 series for ebook reading, as others have noted, are the battery life and ability to read outdoors. So far the SR 500 I just got is far better on both of those counts. For my reading habits I like being able to charge up my reader once a month and not worry about making sure it's got a fresh charge every morning as I head out the door. And reading in the park, on the beach and other outdoor locations is one of the main reasons I wanted to get an ebook reader, so the SR 500 works best for me. Then again, I don't need a lot of contrast since I started reading ebooks on a Palm III, and the SR 500 reminds me of that experience.

I have to pretty much agree with your comments. I too expected much more from the NIT. But since I spent around $200 I am happy with it serving me for web access on the fly as well as a good ebook reader. I would not recommend the N8x0's for the none tech sort of person. I opt'd for the N800 over the 810 because I did not care for the built in keyboard. I also preferred the significantly higher memory potential, up to 64GB, on the N800. That is if if you can afford the 32gb SDHC cards... ;) Still I have now 32GB of space on my N800. Had I been aware of the N810's display being transreflective I would have at least looked closer. But the memory thing would tend to sway me more toward the N800.

For my background when using FBReader I don't often use a black background but rather a more paper like off-white color with black text. BUT, after reading your post originally, I have used a black background at night when I did not want to bother my 'better half' with the light from the display on the N800. Works GREAT. and I can make the text green so it feels like 1985 all over again... ;)

For me the N800 works for my needs with the added bonus of a display that is easier for my eyes than any of the eink devices. BUT, I just read something that makes me want to open another thread. About whether current eink displays lose their contrast over time. If so that sure would explain why I was underwhelmed by trying the demo Sony 505...but at the same time it would sure keep me away from eink for the time being.

Started a thread about eink displays losing contrast here:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=183712#post183712

Figured it would be better to keep that a seperate question.