I recently finished posting "Forest Runes" by George W. Sears to my home page www.zianet.com/jgray/. It is the other book by the author. As some of you know, I had previously posted "Woodcraft".

Now, to my question. When I converted the poems in "Forest Runes" to HTML, I matched the formatting of the original text as closely as I could. In most cases, the indentation of various lines in the poems is deliberate, and so I retained them. However, in some cases, a line of a poem was broken to fit the page margins and the rest of the line is indented on the next line. I have duplicated this on the web version, but am thinking about re-doing these lines without the breaks.

The reason I am posting here is to get various opinions and reasons as to whether I should or should not stay faithful to the printed version. I am only thinking about fixing the lines that were broken to fit the margins, not any other lines that were indented for poetic reasons. Attached is one example poem. The PDF is the original page and the GIF is a screenshot of the web version as it is now.

My personal view is that either option will work well, provided that you explain what you have done.
By the way, your version of Woodcraft is lovely.

The reason I am posting here is to get various opinions and reasons as to whether I should or should not stay faithful to the printed version. I am only thinking about fixing the lines that were broken to fit the margins, not any other lines that were indented for poetic reasons. Attached is one example poem. The PDF is the original page and the GIF is a screenshot of the web version as it is now.

My opinion is that you should remove the “format-imposed” line-breaks. I see those sorts of line-breaks as limitations, where paper was insufficient to present the poem as it “really is” and the layout needed to use special formatting to say “there isn’t really a line-break here – just ignore it.” No need carry the details of one particular instance of that limitation into a medium where it doesn’t exist.

And your editions are quite lovely :).

When using HTML is should be flowable which means the margin should be adjustable. It is typical to indent all but the first line of a poem where most of the poem is made up of single line paragraphs with no spacing between them. A CSS entry can accomplish this automatically.

The look and feel of poetry should be evident in its presentation whenever possible. Having a wrap around due to a long line does not destroy the presentation IMHO but this is what the indent is all about. The indent maintains the form of the line. Line lengths of the medium are arbitrary while line lengths of the poem itself are significant.

Dale

It seems the majority opinion is to removed the artificial line breaks. I was leaning that way, but wanted to see what other's had to say about the issue. Thanks for the input and also thanks for the kind words about the two books I did.

Related to this, I haven't posted ebook files for "Forest Runes" yet, as I'm not happy with how badly the various ebook formats render the poetry that I formatted so carefully. Reading this book on PDA-sized screens is far from ideal. The lack of CSS support in FBReader makes things even worse. So far, the best formatting is with Digital Editions, but it put the horizontal rules at the left margin, instead of centered. If anyone with a Cybook can do screenshots, I would like to send the Mobipocket draft ebook to them. PM me if you can help.

I did the indentation on the web page by setting a few "margin-left" rules in the stylesheet and then wrapping specific lines with span tags to get the desired indent for that line. I thought about using nbsp tags (which would have worked better in the ebook files), but having dozens of nbsp's was too much to deal with and very ugly to edit. Has anyone come up with a better way to handle this?

Thanks to all.

I did the indentation on the web page by setting a few "margin-left" rules in the stylesheet and then wrapping specific lines with span tags to get the desired indent for that line. I thought about using nbsp tags (which would have worked better in the ebook files), but having dozens of nbsp's was too much to deal with and very ugly to edit. Has anyone come up with a better way to handle this?

Thanks to all.

If you have style support then you set the left margin to the overflow lines and set the text-indent to a negative number (outdent) to set the first line to move further left. That way you get exactly what you want.

Dale

ok, "Forest Runes" has been updated to remove the artificial line breaks.. You can find the book link on my home page, along with "Woodcraft" www.zianet.com/jgray/

If you have style support then you set the left margin to the overflow lines and set the text-indent to a negative number (outdent) to set the first line to move further left. That way you get exactly what you want.

Dale

Thanks for the suggestion. That would be an easy way to do things for a poem that has only one line indented. The poems in "Forest Runes use more complicated indentation, I'm sorry to say.

Thanks for the suggestion. That would be an easy way to do things for a poem that has only one line indented. The poems in "Forest Runes use more complicated indentation, I'm sorry to say.

It is easy for poems that have all lines indented which is most of them that I have ever read. (There are a few exceptions.) Each line is a paragraph. Long lines get overflowed depending on the width capabilities of the target media whether it be paper or electronic and the method handles this fine.

There is also required handling that is just a little different for stanzas but it can be handled in a similar way with only line spacing differences.

From the examples of Forest Runes you gave this will work fine for what I saw. What other formatting do you require?

Dale

Many poems deliberately break their lines in such a way as to "tug against" the meaning. It's an intentional poetic device known as "enjambment". Any formatting would have to respect the enjambment and/or closure of the lines. Closure and enjambment are used to build and release tension in a poem.

The we have other structures, verses, strophes, and so on, that must also be respected.

The line breaks and formatting for example in Richard Wilbur's "Love Calls Us to the Things of the World" are very finely nuanced, and not arbitrary at all. The "white space", blank lines, and various indentations are finely calculated and are as much a part of the poem as the words themselves.

jgray has quite an undertaking...

Many poems deliberately break their lines in such a way as to "tug against" the meaning. It's an intentional poetic device known as "enjambment". Any formatting would have to respect the enjambment and/or closure of the lines. Closure and enjambment are used to build and release tension in a poem.

The we have other structures, verses, strophes, and so on, that must also be respected.

The line breaks and formatting for example in Richard Wilbur's "Love Calls Us to the Things of the World" are very finely nuanced, and not arbitrary at all. The "white space", blank lines, and various indentations are finely calculated and are as much a part of the poem as the words themselves.

jgray has quite an undertaking...

The only line breaks that I eliminated were the ones that seemed to be a result of the publisher trying to fit the page margins. All other formatting I kept. I did re-join stanzas that spanned pages, however.

As for the undertaking, yes, it was a job, but it is finished. You are obviously a lover of poetry, so please have a look at "Forest Runes". I didn't care for some of the poems, but several are quite good IMHO.

It is easy for poems that have all lines indented which is most of them that I have ever read. (There are a few exceptions.) Each line is a paragraph. Long lines get overflowed depending on the width capabilities of the target media whether it be paper or electronic and the method handles this fine.

There is also required handling that is just a little different for stanzas but it can be handled in a similar way with only line spacing differences.

From the examples of Forest Runes you gave this will work fine for what I saw. What other formatting do you require?

Dale

The one example I posted had no indenting, except for the line breaks that I wanted to eliminate. Several other poems have more complicated formatting. In any case, the method I used seems to work and considering all the time I've already spent, I'll just go with what I have. Thanks for the suggestions, however.

I'll take a look, thanks. Yes, you're perfectly correct to remove breaks that you are certain are merely artifacts of the print margins.

Someone else asked about what formatting a poem might need. In addition to "lines", poems have larger structures: stanzas, strophes, and verse paragraphs. Perhaps this example will illustrate (from Robert Frost's "Home Burial"):

1. "Amy! Don't go to someone else this time.
2. Listen to me. I won't come down the stairs."
3. He sat and fixed his chin between his fists.
4. "There's something I should like to ask you, dear."
5.
6. "You don't know how to ask it."
7. "Help me, then."
8.
9. Her fingers moved the latch for all reply.
10.
11. "My words are nearly always an offense."

Note that "lines" are a metrical unit, in this poem. Each line is composed of so many "feet", a unit of patterned stresses. So lines 6 & 7 are in fact a single "line" of poetry.

My numbered lines are there to help explain. Lines 1-4 are a "verse paragraph", a unit of the poem where the husband speaks and the poem describes his action and speech.

The break to line 6 is there to indicate the wife speaks. The husband replies on the same "line", thus the break and indentation on 6/7.

Another blank line, because we shift from the husband's "Help me, then", to the wife's action. So line 9 is both a line and a verse paragraph. Another blank, because line 11 is where the husband begins to speak again (a long speech, so quite a long verse paragraph in the full poem).

To properly format a poem, you need more than simply a static left margin and static indent!

Note: I picked this particular poem because, searching for it online, one runs across versions of it which completely butcher the formatting and so destroy much of the sense and tension of this utterly sad poem.

I'll take a look, thanks. Yes, you're perfectly correct to remove breaks that you are certain are merely artifacts of the print margins.

Someone else asked about what formatting a poem might need. In addition to "lines", poems have larger structures: stanzas, strophes, and verse paragraphs. Perhaps this example will illustrate (from Robert Frost's "Home Burial"):

1. "Amy! Don't go to someone else this time.
2. Listen to me. I won't come down the stairs."
3. He sat and fixed his chin between his fists.
4. "There's something I should like to ask you, dear."
5.
6. "You don't know how to ask it."
7. "Help me, then."
8.
9. Her fingers moved the latch for all reply.
10.
11. "My words are nearly always an offense."

Note that "lines" are a metrical unit, in this poem. Each line is composed of so many "feet", a unit of patterned stresses. So lines 6 & 7 are in fact a single "line" of poetry.

My numbered lines are there to help explain. Lines 1-4 are a "verse paragraph", a unit of the poem where the husband speaks and the poem describes his action and speech.

The break to line 6 is there to indicate the wife speaks. The husband replies on the same "line", thus the break and indentation on 6/7.

Another blank line, because we shift from the husband's "Help me, then", to the wife's action. So line 9 is both a line and a verse paragraph. Another blank, because line 11 is where the husband begins to speak again (a long speech, so quite a long verse paragraph in the full poem).

To properly format a poem, you need more than simply a static left margin and static indent!

who said anything about a static indent. A CSS isn't static. the names of each paragraph type needs to be defined and then you just assign a name to a paragraph structure. The first four lines which are each separate paragraphs) are type1 which is defined to be a paragraph with outdent on the line and an left margin that is considerably inside just in case it is used on a device that isn't wide enough.

Line 6 and 7 are tricky since you want to pretend that 7 is connected to the end of 6. This can be done as a special case since it probably won't happen too often in a poem but it is possible to build a CSS for this too.

line 4, 9 and perhaps 11 are the same as type1 but they have defined height between the lines. Alternately you can just insert a blank line if you wish but having a new type is a bit more elegant.

I never said poems were just as easy as prose but they can be formatted on eBooks.

Dale

Line 6 and 7 are tricky since you want to pretend that 7 is connected to the end of 6. This can be done as a special case since it probably won't happen too often in a poem but it is possible to build a CSS for this too.

Dale,

I've been a web developer since the web's creation; I know CSS. Yes, CSS can supply the necessary formatting.

However, it's not I who want to "pretend" that line 6 and 7 are in fact a single metrical line. The poet quite definitely and intentionally wrote the poem that way, and it is far, far from uncommon. As I've labored to stress, what we could call "white space" is integral to many poems.

Many poems, if styled/formatted with CSS, wouldn't be able to use CSS classes at all, but would rather require line-by-line formatting.

As an extreme example, there is an entire class of poetry called "concrete poetry" that relies almost entirely on typography and white space management.

I didn't mean to start a flame war, only to caution would-be "e-poetry formatters" against casually altering the layout of a poem. Those line breaks mean something.

A few examples for those interested, in which jagged, irregular seeming spacing is intentional and in fact critical to understanding the poem:

Love Calls Us to the Things of This World, Richard Wilbur
Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood, Wordsworth
Ode to the Confederate Dead, Allan Tate
Paterson, William Carlos Williams (in fact, most of WCW's work)


Her
hips were narrow, her
legs
thin and straight She stopped
me in my tracks - until I saw
her
disappear in the crowd

I'm a bit late to the discussion, but here are my two cents --

The publisher of the version you are transcribing or using as a reference altered the original work for financial reasons. They did not want to use a larger more expensive page size for the volume. For other reasons they did not use a smaller font size of a more condensed type. You have the ability to correct the prior changes. To preserve these errors is lunacy.

When I did the Harvard Classics series the two areas I dreaded most were verse and plays. These were posted in Sony LRF, MobiPocket PRC, and IMP formats (and a second version of IMP by Nick.) While all the words and marks are there, the visual structure is gone. The nature of the tools I used to create the final formats pushed all lines flush left and often deleted the spaces between related elements thus creating a solid mass. I do plan on going back and redoing all 50 volumes in the future as work and other commitments allow.

Dale,

I've been a web developer since the web's creation; I know CSS. Yes, CSS can supply the necessary formatting.

However, it's not I who want to "pretend" that line 6 and 7 are in fact a single metrical line. The poet quite definitely and intentionally wrote the poem that way, and it is far, far from uncommon. As I've labored to stress, what we could call "white space" is integral to many poems.

Many poems, if styled/formatted with CSS, wouldn't be able to use CSS classes at all, but would rather require line-by-line formatting.

As an extreme example, there is an entire class of poetry called "concrete poetry" that relies almost entirely on typography and white space management.

I didn't mean to start a flame war, only to caution would-be "e-poetry formatters" against casually altering the layout of a poem. Those line breaks mean something.

A few examples for those interested, in which jagged, irregular seeming spacing is intentional and in fact critical to understanding the poem:

Love Calls Us to the Things of This World, Richard Wilbur
Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood, Wordsworth
Ode to the Confederate Dead, Allan Tate
Paterson, William Carlos Williams (in fact, most of WCW's work)


Her
hips were narrow, her
legs
thin and straight She stopped
me in my tracks - until I saw
her
disappear in the crowd


Yes, I agree there are classes of poetry that do defy using any form of formatting. I think those are best like some mathematical equations you just create an image and go with it. However, I didn't believe that was what the original author was talking about however I have been wrong before.

By the way, there is always worst case items that defy description but if we only designed everything for the worst case then we couldn't do anything. I couldn't even make a eBook out of Alice in Wonderland since there is this tail (tale) in there that defies formatting. (I ended up with a <pre> on that one to make it work. I do not believe that poetry cannot be on an eBook device but I do think you have to be more creative than just saying it can't be done.

Dale

I couldn't even make a eBook out of Alice in Wonderland since there is this tail (tale) in there that defies formatting.

Interestingly, the Mobi creator web site uses "Alice" as its sample book in showing how to create an eBook. The "tail" is done beautifully using the Mobi-specific tag for indenting paragraphs, by having a gradually increasing, then decreasing indent for each line.

I never said it can't be done. Yes, I realize I've taken this discussion outside the scope of what the OP intended. That's because I'm interested in learning how one would format such poems.

How far will CSS/HTML translate into other formats? If I'm setting type for a printed book, I pick the font and style. In a static HTML page, I could even get by with non-breaking space characters and not use CSS.

But what about devices that allow the user to pick different fonts? Even a font change could break the formatting of a poem.

If you formatted a poem (or any text) using advanced CSS techniques, such as putting each line in a div and using float and clear, or using so-called "sandbag divs" (technique illustrated here (http://www.bigbaer.com/css_tutorials/css.image.text.wrap.htm)) what happens when that gets converted to an e-book format?

I suspect, Taylor, you just have to find out by experimentation what each device supports. The Gen3, for example, supports <DIV> but I don't know if it supports the "float" or "clear" atttributes on them. "Float" I strongly suspect it doesn't. It's obviously possible to achieve a lot more if you format for one specific device than if you try to make your formatting more general. Eg, Mobipocket books support a variety of Mobipocket-specific tags and attributes, which won't be understood by other devices.

I never said it can't be done. Yes, I realize I've taken this discussion outside the scope of what the OP intended. That's because I'm interested in learning how one would format such poems.

How far will CSS/HTML translate into other formats? If I'm setting type for a printed book, I pick the font and style. In a static HTML page, I could even get by with non-breaking space characters and not use CSS.

But what about devices that allow the user to pick different fonts? Even a font change could break the formatting of a poem.

If you formatted a poem (or any text) using advanced CSS techniques, such as putting each line in a div and using float and clear, or using so-called "sandbag divs" (technique illustrated here (http://www.bigbaer.com/css_tutorials/css.image.text.wrap.htm)) what happens when that gets converted to an e-book format?

Automatic translation of advanced formatting will almost certainly fail. You'd have to generate versions in each book format by hand.

I had already come up with a workable method of formatting the poetry in Forest Runes and posted the result to my web site. However, I wasn't completely satisfied. I thought that there must be a better way to do this. After doing some additional pondering and Googling, I see that quite a few people have wrestled with the problem of formattting poetry for the web.

In any event, I have what I think is a slightly better variation on the method that I had already used. I would like to get some comments and suggestions on possible improvements. What I don't want to do is to use numerous nbsp tags for indents. Note that any suggestions have to allow for multiple levels of indent to be applied to individual lines of a stanza. Also, the less markup needed, the better.

Here is my current example.


<html>
<head>
<title>Poetry Test</title>

<style type="text/css">
.indent1 { padding-left: 1.2em; }
.indent2 { padding-left: 6.0em; }
body { font-family: Georgia, serif; }
div.poem { white-space: nowrap; }
h1 { margin-top: 0.4em; text-align: center; font-size: 1.2em; }
p {text-indent: 1.2em; }
p.poem { text-indent: 0; }
</style>

</head>

<body>
<h1>SUNRISE IN THE FOREST</h1>

<div class="poem">
<p class="poem">THE zephyrs of morning are stirring the larches,
<br /><span class="indent1"></span>And, lazily lifting, the mist rolls away.
<br />A paean of praise thro’ the dim forest arches
<br /><span class="indent1"></span>Is ringing, to welcome the advent of day.
<br /><span class="indent2"></span>Is loftily ringing,
<br /><span class="indent2"></span>Exultingly ringing,
<br />From the height where a little brown songster is clinging,
<br /><span class="indent1"></span>The top of a hemlock, the uttermost spray.
</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>


A few notes:

I didn't know about "whitespace: nowrap" before. This takes care of preventing a long line from breaking.
Placing the closing span tag immediately after the opening span, or at the end of the line doesn't seem to make any difference. Placing it where I did simplifies the markup process, however. (I know, one is an emply span with a padding, followed by the text and the other is a span with padding that encloses the text. It still doesn't seem to display any differently).
Each stanza of a poem would be a separate paragraph of class "poem".

This seems to work fine in IE, Firefox and Opera. One problem with this method is that Mobipocket does not seem to support this. Using margin-left in place of padding-left doesn't work with Mobipocket either. A zillion nbsp tags will work, but I'm not willing to mark things up that way. Not only is is a PITA to markup, but it is a very ugly solution IMO.

Question: Is it OK to use "poem" as a class selector for two different tags that have different properties, as I did? It seems to work without any problems.

Yes, it's ok to use "poem" as a class selector for different tags. Indeed, that's the beauty of a class selector and even CSS... styles "cascade" downward.

What I don't care for are the empty spans. It seems the lines of your stanza should be within the span tags. You're rightly using what is called "semantic" markup. An empty span has no syntax.

Then too, some of your lines aren't enclosed in spans, which again alters the semantics of those lines. I think a more "proper" HTML would be:

<html>
<head>
<title>Poetry Test</title>

<style type="text/css">
.indent1 { padding-left: 1.2em; }
.indent2 { padding-left: 6.0em; }
body { font-family: Georgia, serif; }
div.poem { white-space: nowrap; }
h1 { margin-top: 0.4em; text-align: center; font-size: 1.2em; }
p {text-indent: 1.2em; }
p.poem { text-indent: 0; }
</style>

</head>

<body>
<h1>SUNRISE IN THE FOREST</h1>

<div class="poem">
<p class="poem"><span>THE zephyrs of morning are stirring the larches,</span>
<br /><span class="indent1">And, lazily lifting, the mist rolls away.</span>
<br /><span>A paean of praise thro’ the dim forest arches</span>
<br /><span class="indent1">Is ringing, to welcome the advent of day.</span>
<br /><span class="indent2">Is loftily ringing,</span>
<br /><span class="indent2">Exultingly ringing,</span>
<br />From the height where a little brown songster is clinging,</span>
<br /><span class="indent1">The top of a hemlock, the uttermost spray.</span>
</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

In fact, since "poem" will cascade down from the div to the paragraph, I think you could simplify this even further to:

<html>
<head>
<title>Poetry Test</title>

<style type="text/css">
.indent1 { padding-left: 1.2em; }
.indent2 { padding-left: 6.0em; }
body { font-family: Georgia, serif; }
.poem { white-space: nowrap; }
h1 { margin-top: 0.4em; text-align: center; font-size: 1.2em; }
p { text-indent: 0; }
</style>

</head>

<body>
<h1>SUNRISE IN THE FOREST</h1>

<div class="poem">
<p><span>THE zephyrs of morning are stirring the larches,</span>
<br /><span class="indent1">And, lazily lifting, the mist rolls away.</span>
<br /><span>A paean of praise thro’ the dim forest arches</span>
<br /><span class="indent1">Is ringing, to welcome the advent of day.</span>
<br /><span class="indent2">Is loftily ringing,</span>
<br /><span class="indent2">Exultingly ringing,</span>
<br />From the height where a little brown songster is clinging,</span>
<br /><span class="indent1">The top of a hemlock, the uttermost spray.</span>
</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

I appreciate your diligence in pursuing poetry formatting. Thank you.

Taylor514ce, thanks for the feedback. As I said in my post of the example, the reason I did the empty spans is that it is easier to markup, instead of wrapping the lines in the span. It also has the advantage of being easier to search on this as a unit, if I want to replace it with something else when building a different ebook that doesn't support this method.

Playing devil's advocate, why is an emply span semantically wrong? The span isn't really empty, it contains the padding for the indent. As for wrapping the non-indented lines in a span, I don't understand the need for that. It seems to be unnecessary markup.

In your second example, you tried to simplify the CSS, which I appreciate. However, I didn't want to combine things and apply a zero text-indent on the regular paragraph tag. I will want to have prose paragraphs with indentation.

Again, comments welcome. I'm just trying to figure out how to do this the "proper" way. However, I don't mind being a little "wrong", if it makes the markup easier to apply.