View Full Version : Scrolling - incredibly awful


dso371
02-10-2008, 09:30 AM
In the thread on desirable firmware updates, only one user found it worth mentioning the following:

"One feature that would make it easier is if the software were changed so that more then one item were scrolled when a button pressed continuously. It would have been best if it accelerated."

I have only just discovered how terrible it is. I bought a Mobipocket book with many sections in its contents. To get to section 105, I had to hit the button 105 times!!! I couldn't hold the button down to scroll (let alone accelerate!).

Moreover, the endless tapping takes the cursor only from left to right. You can't hit the down button when you're on the left hand side and make the cursor move down the left hand side, for example.

This defect has made using this particular ebook all but impossible. I am not going to give myself repetitive strain injury just to read a book!

In short, the next firmware update must make navigation more like the experience of using the arrow buttons on a PC. This is not an option - it's a necessity.

Bookeen, are you listening??? :blink:

Nate the great
02-10-2008, 09:41 AM
I know a trick that works on my Kindle as well as having worked in the Mobipocket Reader on my PDA. Use the Next Page and Previous Page buttons to jump through the TOC if it's not all on the sceen at the same time.

HarryT
02-10-2008, 10:48 AM
In the thread on desirable firmware updates, only one user found it worth mentioning the following:

"One feature that would make it easier is if the software were changed so that more then one item were scrolled when a button pressed continuously. It would have been best if it accelerated."

I have only just discovered how terrible it is. I bought a Mobipocket book with many sections in its contents. To get to section 105, I had to hit the button 105 times!!! I couldn't hold the button down to scroll (let alone accelerate!).

Moreover, the endless tapping takes the cursor only from left to right. You can't hit the down button when you're on the left hand side and make the cursor move down the left hand side, for example.

This defect has made using this particular ebook all but impossible. I am not going to give myself repetitive strain injury just to read a book!

In short, the next firmware update must make navigation more like the experience of using the arrow buttons on a PC. This is not an option - it's a necessity.

Bookeen, are you listening??? :blink:

This sounds more like a defect with the design of this particular book than with the Gen3. Anyone who puts 105 links on a single page should seriously re-think their user interface! Were all these links really on the same page?

dso371
02-10-2008, 11:19 AM
Errr, it was the BIBLE. The Book of Psalms has 150 psalms. I wanted to read Psalm 105. Hence over 100 taps to get to it.

And yes, as with all the books of the Bible, you get all the chapter headings on one page, usually.

Not exactly a niche product, and certainly not poor book design! :D



This sounds more like a defect with the design of this particular book than with the Gen3. Anyone who puts 105 links on a single page should seriously re-think their user interface! Were all these links really on the same page?

HarryT
02-10-2008, 11:21 AM
Errr, it was the BIBLE. The Book of Psalms has 150 psalms. I wanted to read Psalm 105. Hence over 100 taps to get to it.

Not exactly a niche product, and certainly not poor book design! :D

Are all the links on the same page? THAT is what sounds like poor design to me. Had they been, say, 20 links to a page then it would have taken a maximum of 25 and an average of 12 clicks (2 to select the correct page, 10 to select the link) to go to any particular item.

dso371
02-10-2008, 11:42 AM
Of course the links are all on the same page - 150 psalms, 150 numbers. In my Mobi version, 1-150 appears in half a page. That's pretty much what you would expect!


Are all the links on the same page? THAT is what sounds like poor design to me. Had they been, say, 20 links to a page then it would have taken a maximum of 25 and an average of 12 clicks (2 to select the correct page, 10 to select the link) to go to any particular item.

HarryT
02-10-2008, 11:50 AM
My point is, however, that on any device without a touch screen, the only way to navigate between hyperlinks is to scroll through them one at a time. That makes having 150 hyperlinks on a page poor eBook design, regardless of whether or not they will physically "fit" onto the page. Splitting them into smaller groups across several pages would allow for much more efficient navigation.

This is the kind of thing you have to consider when designing navigation links within an eBook.

dso371
02-10-2008, 11:53 AM
But you mean to say that Bookeen can't design their firmware so the buttons act more like the arrow buttons on a PC, so you can move around freely? Surely it's not rocket science? Surely other e-readers can do this? (Not that I've checked.):blink:


Of course the links are all on the same page - 150 psalms, 150 numbers. In my Mobi version, 1-150 appears in half a page. That's pretty much what you would expect!

ProfJulie
02-10-2008, 12:02 PM
I bought an electronic bible recently, and I don't think it works well on electronic readers unless you're just planning to read it in some kind of sequential order. There's just no way to quickly jump to book, to chapter, to verse. Even if all chapters were hyperlinked (which they are not in the Bible I purchased) it would still take way too much time to get to a desired location. In that regard, the paper version is vastly superior.

HarryT
02-10-2008, 12:05 PM
But you mean to say that Bookeen can't design their firmware so the buttons act more like the arrow buttons on a PC, so you can move around freely? Surely it's not rocket science? Surely other e-readers can do this? (Not that I've checked.):blink:

All the eInk readers I'm aware of behave in the same way (except the iLiad, which has a touch screen).

Nate the great
02-10-2008, 12:11 PM
Of course the links are all on the same page - 150 psalms, 150 numbers. In my Mobi version, 1-150 appears in half a page. That's pretty much what you would expect!

It sounds like you have links set up like text, which as you was a stupid for the publisher to do. I haven't heard of this happening before. Well, actually, I've done it on accident. But I've never released an ebook with this problem.

The expected way to do a TOC is one link to a line. If this ebook had a TOC made properly, you wouldn't have this problem. You should complain to whoever made this ebook so this problem can be fixed.

dso371
02-10-2008, 12:39 PM
But even with one link to a line, I'd still have to make over 100 taps to get to Psalm 105! Unless the arrows enable freer navigation, I can't see how book design is going to make things any easier. The firmware needs improving.


It sounds like you have links set up like text, which as you was a stupid for the publisher to do. I haven't heard of this happening before. Well, actually, I've done it on accident. But I've never released an ebook with this problem.

The expected way to do a TOC is one link to a line. If this ebook had a TOC made properly, you wouldn't have this problem. You should complain to whoever made this ebook so this problem can be fixed.

HarryT
02-10-2008, 12:47 PM
But even with one link to a line, I'd still have to make over 100 taps to get to Psalm 105! Unless the arrows enable freer navigation, I can't see how book design is going to make things any easier. The firmware needs improving.

As I explained in my earlier post, the way that book design can help is by having different groups of links on different pages. That effectively makes navigation "two dimensional" by allowing you to first select a page, and then select a link on that page.

Eg, a linear list of 150 links will require, on average, 75 cursor movements to find a particular link. If, on the other hand, you split those 150 links onto 8 pages with 20 links per page (15 on the final page), then on average you'll need 4 clicks to select the correct page, then 10 clicks to select the correct link on that page - ie an average of 14 clicks compared to 75. That's a considerable improvement!

dso371
02-10-2008, 12:54 PM
OK, I see what you mean. Still far too many taps, mind you. Bookeen, just fix the problem in the firmware upgrade, will you?:(

As I explained in my earlier post, the way that book design can help is by having different groups of links on different pages. That effectively makes navigation "two dimensional" by allowing you to first select a page, and then select a link on that page.

Eg, a linear list of 150 links will require, on average, 75 cursor movements to find a particular link. If, on the other hand, you split those 150 links onto 8 pages with 20 links per page (15 on the final page), then on average you'll need 4 clicks to select the correct page, then 10 clicks to select the correct link on that page - ie an average of 14 clicks compared to 75. That's a considerable improvement!

Alisa
02-10-2008, 01:06 PM
All the eInk readers I'm aware of behave in the same way (except the iLiad, which has a touch screen).

The Kindle is different, as well. They don't do the up/down button thing. They have the scroll wheel with the indicator in a separate LCD to the side. I think they did that just to get around this sort of problem.

SUSGOD
02-10-2008, 02:05 PM
-snip- Anyone who puts 105 links on a single page should seriously re-think their user interface! Were all these links really on the same page?

Harry,

While waiting for my NAEB Cybook, I am updating my HTML genealogy files at http://home.att.net/~jg245/ and stripping out-of-page links. The couple of thousand remaining links will allow me to zip between my related families when I assemble the 80 htm files into one e-book. Fortunately most of the 30,000 individuals already have unique A NAME links. If I had to go page by page, I could not use an e-book for reference.

Susan

delphidb96
02-10-2008, 02:11 PM
OK, I see what you mean. Still far too many taps, mind you. Bookeen, just fix the problem in the firmware upgrade, will you?:(


But it's not Bookeen's fault. It's the fault of the people who laid out the book for use in Mobipocket. What I'd have done is create a series of interim pages. For example:

Old Testament
New Testament

then clicking on either would bring up a set of new pages with the various books - taking OT for example

Genesis
Leviticus
...
Psalms
...

Clicking on Psalms would bring up a page with a listing similar to:

Psalms 1 - 30
Psalms 31 - 60
...
Psalms 121-150

Clicking on Psalms 121-150 would bring up a few rows of chapters:

121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130
...
141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150

Using this method, you'd be able to get to Psalms 150 with fewer than 20 or so clicks.

In fact, I did something similar for a fiction work that had parts and chapters - with the chapters restarting with "1" in each part.

Derek

Sparrow
02-10-2008, 02:13 PM
I'm probably misunderstanding - but couldn't you increase the font to spread the links over multiple screens and then page through them in batches?

Justy
02-10-2008, 02:49 PM
The other option is to start at the bottom of the page. I have found that, when I'm at a page of links, I can click "up" and start at the bottom of the list of links. This would save a lot of clicks when going to choice 105 out of 150. :)

dso371
02-10-2008, 03:06 PM
Sparrow and Justy - your solutions certainly help, thanks! It requires some experimentation with the right font size, which takes a few taps, but once I got it right, then in combination with starting at the bottom of the page I could get to 105 in a handful of taps. Thank you!

Still, Bookeen must be able to update the firmware to make the buttons more functional, allowing freer, more cursor-like movement. Surely that's not too much to ask?

David

wallcraft
02-10-2008, 03:40 PM
The other option is to start at the bottom of the page. I have found that, when I'm at a page of links, I can click "up" and start at the bottom of the list of links. This appears to be a standard feature of MobiPocket Reader software - it works under Windows for example (although you then have the option of using a mouse rather than the cursor keys). Under Windows, holding an arrow key down does autorepeat as you would expect (probably a Windows feature).

Prospect
02-11-2008, 02:44 AM
The auto-repeat function is a pretty standard feature found in most consumer electronics and or software I have used over the years. The only device (ranging from my microwave to my Mac) lacking this function that I can think of is the Cybook.

This is not only a TOC issue, but applies to all navigation on the device. Has anybody tried using the lookup function? Or tried moving from the first to the last book in the library?

The lack of auto-repeat on the Cybook is particularity bad because of the buttons being so hard to push.

The good news is that this is something that would be really easy to fix, and since we believe in Bookeen we know they will sort this out.

Ortep
02-11-2008, 03:12 AM
Has anybody tried using the lookup function? Or tried moving from the first to the last book in the library?



Yes, and Yes

I have a dictionary that I use frequentely. Most of the time I can select a word within 10 pushes. The pointer starts at the left top position. If the word you need is at the lower part of the page, push 'up' and you start from the bottom. If it is on the right side of the page, push 'left' and you are at the right side of the page. This system makes that you can be on the correct quart of the page in max 2 pushes. On the average you need only one. I do not want auto repeat here. The danger of overshooting is very real when you only need 4-5 pushes before you have to change direction

I have about 80 books in the library with 5 books on a page. That makes 16 pages. So I can find the average book in 8+3 pushes. But that is something that happens only once every few days. It can be solved bij a better folder structure.

Prospect
02-11-2008, 03:24 AM
Ortep;

Are you saying that you would prefer Bookeen not adding an auto-repeat function?

HarryT
02-11-2008, 03:26 AM
I share your views, Ortep; I have, at present, 94 books in my library and make frequent use of a dictionary (Chambers). Neither cause me any particular issues.

Ortep
02-11-2008, 03:51 AM
Ortep;

Are you saying that you would prefer Bookeen not adding an auto-repeat function?

No, but is extremely low on my list.

More important to me are:

Virtual Folder support. So I can group books by author, language, subject etc.

And of course having the option to redefine the buttons. So I can, for example, use the volume buttons to increase and decrease the font size. Or to have dedicated button to select the dictionary

Prospect
02-11-2008, 04:27 AM
I agree that there are other issues like stability and folders higher on the list. Auto-repeat should however not be to hard to implement and since it most likely is a part of the API used by Bookeen for the development it is kind of strange that the "feature" is not already in the device.

tompe
02-11-2008, 06:12 AM
I agree that there are other issues like stability and folders higher on the list. Auto-repeat should however not be to hard to implement and since it most likely is a part of the API used by Bookeen for the development it is kind of strange that the "feature" is not already in the device.

I think it is on purpose. At least the simple way to implement auto-repeat will not work since the feedback is so slow. So to implement auto-repeat you have to synchronize with the display and that makes it much more complicated if it is possible at all.

Prospect
02-11-2008, 08:31 AM
I did not think of that...

But even a slow auto-repeat would be better than no auto-repeat? Or if repeat is to difficult becuase of the slow feedback what about
short press = 1 jump
some kind of longer press = 5 jumps
long press = 20 jumps

or someting simmilar.

JSWolf
02-20-2008, 12:14 PM
Just to let you know, the 505 works the same way. It does not have repeat when you hold down the buttons.

HarryT
02-20-2008, 12:43 PM
Just to let you know, the 505 works the same way. It does not have repeat when you hold down the buttons.

But it does skip 5 pages when you hold the button down, rather than press it, doesn't it? The 500 did that, at least.

igorsk
02-20-2008, 01:58 PM
It does, but ten pages, not five :)

Prospect
02-20-2008, 02:24 PM
That would definitely be a feature I would like in the next firmware release for the Cybook!

The engineering team of Bookeen should try to play around with this and try to come up with something better than the current solution.

Does anybody know how this is implemented on the Iliad and the Hanlin devices?

Snuffi
02-21-2008, 07:08 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but in a TOC you can get to the last entry quickly by pressing the "Up" button instead of going down all the way by repeatedly pressing "Down". So basically, you never have to press a button more than half the number of entries on a page (which is usually around 20 in a sensibly formatted book). In combination with the already mentioned "Right" button to get to the next page of a TOC it saves a lot of button presses that way...