View Full Version : epub3


me too
07-18-2012, 12:39 AM
how to create epub3
will some one say me what is the basic structure of the folders in EPUB3

Toxaris
07-18-2012, 03:48 AM
Please check the specifications of the ePUB3 format on the IDPF site or look at the wiki of Mobileread.
The folder structure has not changed from ePUB2 to ePUB3.

There are no real editors for ePUB3 as of yet, so it is all manual work. I have heard that the latest ID can save as ePUB3, but I am not sure about the quality.

me too
07-18-2012, 07:12 AM
sir
i have an epub 2 , how can i updrade it to epub3,
will some can provide me with the css,content.opf for the epub that contains video and audio or an epub
plz.....

Toxaris
07-18-2012, 09:34 AM
Since all ePUB3 readers can read ePUB2 there is no reason to 'upgrade'. All the changes with regards to supported CSS and HTML5 are in the specs on the IDPF site.
Please read those and look at the site of Liz Castro. She has some example ePUB's in ePUB3 format.

I really hope you don't expect that someone will provide everything for you on a silver platter do you? How will you ever learn then.

That being said, I also cannot help you. I have never embedded audio/video in an ePUB and don't plan to do that for a very long time.

StoryEnthusiast
07-18-2012, 07:19 PM
look at the site of Liz Castro. She has some example ePUB's in ePUB3 format.I did a search and found http://www.elizabethcastro.com/epub/index.html promoting her book only. Would you mind providing the exact URL?

DiapDealer
07-18-2012, 08:10 PM
I did a search and found http://www.elizabethcastro.com/epub/index.html promoting her book only. Would you mind providing the exact URL?
I think you want Liz' blog for samples, tutorials, etc...
http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/

JSWolf
07-18-2012, 08:29 PM
sir
i have an epub 2 , how can i updrade it to epub3,
will some can provide me with the css,content.opf for the epub that contains video and audio or an epub
plz.....

Take your ePub you already have, extract the CSS, OPF, XML, NCX and have a look at it all. There you have the code you need for your ePub. What you are asking for is like trying to get better sound from an MP3 by converting to to FLAC.

You will find that most people don't want audio/video in their eBooks. Also, given that there are so few programs that will actually handle audio/video, it's not worth the hassle for something we don't actually want.

Aerys
07-19-2012, 01:56 AM
Just want to chime something, an epub with audio/video does not automatically mean that it's an epub3 file. iBooks uses epub2 format and accepts some epub3 declarations in it which means it allows video/audio tags to work plus javascript.

A true epub3 file should follow the epub3 specs of IDPF (i.e. folder structure, navigation, opf, html5/css3 declarations, etc.).

Toxaris
07-19-2012, 03:38 AM
Just want to chime something, an epub with audio/video does not automatically mean that it's an epub3 file. iBooks uses epub2 format and accepts some epub3 declarations in it which means it allows video/audio tags to work plus javascript.

A true epub3 file should follow the epub3 specs of IDPF (i.e. folder structure, navigation, opf, html5/css3 declarations, etc.).

Please be aware that as soon as you add audio/video to an ePUB2 file, it is no longer valid ePUB2! The reason it works in iBooks because the Apple developers were too lazy to program a reading engine following the specifications and used web-kit instead. That caused a lot of non-compatible issues already.

I agree that adding audio/video also doesn't mean it is automatically following the specifications of ePUB3.

Doitsu
07-19-2012, 04:18 AM
Please be aware that as soon as you add audio/video to an ePUB2 file, it is no longer valid ePUB2!
Not necessarily. Since ADE supports .swf files, you can use Flash videos in epubs (http://blog.threepress.org/2009/11/14/using-flash-video-in-epub/comment-page-1/), if you provide a fallback definition (http://idpf.org/epub/20/spec/OPF_2.0.1_draft.htm#Section2.3.1.1).

AlexBell
07-19-2012, 05:24 AM
I have bought the 'Audio and Video for ePub' package from

http://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=6FHNX_LIVE&page=AudioVideoMiniguide

The package contains an audio example file and a video example file. They work well on my iPad2 but of course don't work on my Sony.

Jellby
07-19-2012, 05:53 AM
Elementary logic for beginners:

The fact that it works does not mean it's a valid ePub file.
The fact that it doesn't work does not mean it isn't a valid ePub file.
The fact that it's a valid ePub file does not mean it will work.
The fact that it isn't a valid ePub file does not mean it won't work.

me too
07-19-2012, 06:20 AM
i am confused,the matter is not about a valid epub or not,will some one say me that the tutorial iam following right now results in an epub3 or epub2
plz help(me too).......

me too
07-19-2012, 06:25 AM
hello again,
the tutorial iam following is
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/tutorials/x-epubtut/section3.html

Toxaris
07-19-2012, 06:51 AM
Actually, that is the matter. A valid ePUB2 or ePUB3 is following the specifications and therefore will also inherit the limitations to those specifications.

Anyway, the 'tutorial' you are following is aiming for an ePUB2.

me too
07-19-2012, 07:01 AM
sir you please provide me with the url of the site you had suggested in the same thread.Whether the samples specified in the url meant to buy.

JSWolf
07-19-2012, 03:04 PM
Not necessarily. Since ADE supports .swf files, you can use Flash videos in epubs (http://blog.threepress.org/2009/11/14/using-flash-video-in-epub/comment-page-1/), if you provide a fallback definition (http://idpf.org/epub/20/spec/OPF_2.0.1_draft.htm#Section2.3.1.1).

This does not work in ADE 1.8.3. It does work in ADE 1.7.2.

StoryEnthusiast
07-19-2012, 08:52 PM
A true epub3 file should follow the epub3 specs of IDPF (i.e. folder structure, navigation, opf, html5/css3 declarations, etc.).Does it mean the structure and basic setup files have changed? Even though my stories are just text + pictures, I plan to follow the latest specifications, ie ePub3.

DaleDe
07-19-2012, 09:39 PM
I believe SWF has be destandardized for mobile devices.

JSWolf
07-19-2012, 10:24 PM
Does it mean the structure and basic setup files have changed? Even though my stories are just text + pictures, I plan to follow the latest specifications, ie ePub3.

Since it sounds like your eBooks won't be needing any of the features that ePub 3 has that ePub does not, you'd be crazy to go ePub 3 instead of ePub. You would be limiting comparability tremendously as all stand alone readers are ePub and most apps are ePub. There really isn't ePub 3 yet.

me too
07-20-2012, 01:24 AM
There are no real editors for ePUB3 as of yet, so it is all manual work.

iam asking for the manual work that is required for an epub3.
as a first step, can any one help me by sharing the exact folder stucture

me too
07-20-2012, 01:27 AM
Since all ePUB3 readers can read ePUB2 there is no reason to 'upgrade'. All the changes with regards to supported CSS and HTML5 are in the specs on the IDPF site.
Please read those and look at the site of Liz Castro. She has some example ePUB's in ePUB3 format.



i am asking for the url that leads to liz castro's site

Aerys
07-20-2012, 01:54 AM
iam asking for the manual work that is required for an epub3.
as a first step, can any one help me by sharing the exact folder stucture

AFAIK, no one has made an easy manual to understand for epub3. Information on everything about epub 3 is in http://idpf.org/epub/30 link to epub3 specs by IDPF. There are also sample epub3 there.


i am asking for the url that leads to liz castro's site

http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/ Liz Castro's blog.

StoryEnthusiast
07-20-2012, 01:54 AM
You would be limiting comparability tremendously as all stand alone readers are ePub and most apps are ePub. There really isn't ePub 3 yet.I'm still in the learning stage on how to produce ebooks. I need to learn the structure, setup files, etc. and then write a program to convert my HTML-based stories automatically to ebooks. I thought by the time I start producing ebooks, ePub3 will be more widely accepted. That's why I want to start from the latest specifications. However, it appears from what you said that ePub3 won't be widely available for quite a while.

Toxaris
07-20-2012, 03:15 AM
I'm still in the learning stage on how to produce ebooks. I need to learn the structure, setup files, etc. and then write a program to convert my HTML-based stories automatically to ebooks. I thought by the time I start producing ebooks, ePub3 will be more widely accepted. That's why I want to start from the latest specifications. However, it appears from what you said that ePub3 won't be widely available for quite a while.

I don't expect too, only for niche products. To be honest, ePUB3 has some benefits for certain types of books like academical books, cookbooks and children's books.
For the majority of books it will not bring an improvement. Since all ePUB3 readers are required to also support ePUB2, there are no objections in using ePUB2 when possible.

Toxaris
07-20-2012, 03:15 AM
iam asking for the manual work that is required for an epub3.
as a first step, can any one help me by sharing the exact folder stucture

Like I said before, read the specifications on the site of the IDPF or on the wiki pages of this site.

Toxaris
07-20-2012, 03:17 AM
i am asking for the url that leads to liz castro's site

Ever heard of Google??? I entered the search terms 'Liz Castro epub3' and the first hit is her blog (http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/). There are examples there.

AlexBell
07-20-2012, 04:07 AM
Ever heard of Google??? I entered the search terms 'Liz Castro epub3' and the first hit is her blog (http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/). There are examples there.

I think that's a bit rough, Jon. He's obviously a beginner out of his depth, and his command of English is not good.

I can remember how easy it was to become discouraged when I was first beginning and was struggling, and that I found supportive comments more helpful than put downs.

In any event I have searched the pigsgourdsandwikis site, and was unable to find downloadable examples of ePubs with audio and video. They are available in the mini-guide.

Toxaris
07-20-2012, 05:48 AM
In all fairness, AlexBell, I am not Jon. I know JSWolf can have strong opinions, but this is not coming from him.

I know he is a beginner, but he excels in short messages with a very low level of information. The first action anybody should undertake when they have a question or problem, is to look for a solution before asking it. It will either provide you with the answer or help you formulate the question better. Just asking has no value and no learning potential.
If you are beginning in ePUB, the first thing you need to do is read up about the format. On of the first stops would be the IDPF. You need to learn how to walk before you start running...

Back to topic, Liz has various links in her blog posts to ePUB3 examples. They contain various examples, including audio/video.
On the other hand, even searching on this forum will give examples. Not a lot, but they are there.

AlexBell
07-20-2012, 07:38 AM
Thanks, again Toxaris, and I apologise to you and JSWolf for mistaking the poster.

I think we may have to agree to disagree, not so much about the quality of me too's posts but about how to get him to do better. For what it is worth I think it would have been more effective to respond by something like 'Perhaps you could google her; I found her at ....'

DiapDealer
07-20-2012, 08:06 AM
In all fairness... there was no need to google, even. I posted the link for Liz' blog after the first request for it. In post #6.

mrmikel
07-20-2012, 08:09 AM
Some of the difficulty new users have is the search engine. I love everything about this site but its terrible search engine. It simply doesn't retrieve material that is here.

Toxaris
07-20-2012, 08:22 AM
The search engine can have some improvement, but when I search for 'epub3 video' around the third hit give a code example how to do it. No rocket science involved there.
For some searches the more advanced version needs to be used.

*Edit: It is actually the fourth link.

Jellby
07-20-2012, 12:00 PM
ePub 3 has some advantages for "normal" books too, like HTML5 syntax (potentially simpler than XHTML), support for additional CSS properties (like text-transform), possible inline TOC (replacing NCX)...

If I had a well-behaved ePub 3 reader, I'd be creating ePub 3 books already.

JSWolf
07-20-2012, 04:30 PM
ePub 3 has some advantages for "normal" books too, like HTML5 syntax (potentially simpler than XHTML), support for additional CSS properties (like text-transform), possible inline TOC (replacing NCX)...

If I had a well-behaved ePub 3 reader, I'd be creating ePub 3 books already.

I doubt HTML5 is simpler then XHTML. Also, the ePub3 ToC is more difficult then the NCX ToC. Overall, ePub3 (IMHO) ePub3 is not easier then ePub. Plus, there are not many tools to help with ePub3. And given that there are no real readers for ePub3, making eBooks now in ePub3 is a total waste of time and effort as nobody will be reading them.

DiapDealer
07-20-2012, 05:02 PM
I doubt HTML5 is simpler then XHTML.
You'd be wrong.

PeterT
07-20-2012, 07:24 PM
You could also try browsing http://code.google.com/p/epub-samples/ for samples of ePub3 files. Look at the Samples Listing link http://code.google.com/p/epub-samples/wiki/SamplesListing for all the samples they have.

Each sample let you either download the ePub file or browse the source.

These samples were found by Googling for sample epub3.

JSWolf
07-20-2012, 08:59 PM
You'd be wrong.

Please prove to me how I would be incorrect.

AlexBell
07-21-2012, 03:45 AM
You could also try browsing http://code.google.com/p/epub-samples/ for samples of ePub3 files. Look at the Samples Listing link http://code.google.com/p/epub-samples/wiki/SamplesListing for all the samples they have.

Each sample let you either download the ePub file or browse the source.

These samples were found by Googling for sample epub3.

Thanks, Peter. That's a potentially very useful pair of URLs.

If I'd been clever enough to google for sample ePub3 instead of example ePub3 I'd have found it myself.

Jellby
07-21-2012, 05:57 AM
Please prove to me how I would be incorrect.

"Minimal" XHTML 1.1:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
<head>
<title>Chapter X</title>
<link href="css/style.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" />
</head>
<body>

<h1>Chapter X</h1>

<p>It was a dark and stormy night...</p>

</body>
</html>

"Minimal" HTML5:

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
<meta charset="utf-8" />
<link href="css/style.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" />
</head>
<body>

<h1>Chapter X</h1>

<p>It was a dark and stormy night...</p>

</body>
</html>

A small gain, but simpler anyway.

JSWolf
07-21-2012, 05:23 PM
Granted, the header is simpler, but after the header, what's simpler?

DaleDe
07-21-2012, 05:45 PM
I would say simpler to understand but more difficult to code. HTML5 uses semantics and groupings with semantic boundaries which could easily make it more difficult initially but more powerful. IMHO it is more readable since it discourages the incessant use of <div> all over the place which makes understand much more difficult.

Dale

DaleDe
07-21-2012, 05:49 PM
I do think the ePub3 TOC method is superior to the ePub2 version. For one thing it is pure html instead of a different standard of ncx format. It is more powerful in that you user can control how far down the TOC levels should descend and it is solves the problem of inline TOC verse external TOC since the same file can be used for both. Unfortunately the ncx debacle will still be with us to support ePub2 readers for a while.

AlPe
07-25-2012, 05:08 PM
I would say simpler to understand but more difficult to code. HTML5 uses semantics and groupings with semantic boundaries which could easily make it more difficult initially but more powerful. IMHO it is more readable since it discourages the incessant use of <div> all over the place which makes understand much more difficult.


I challenge the word "discourage". I think the most appropriate wording is "it offers a systematically-established semantic-oriented way of replacing the <div>'s".

In other words: HTML5 offers uniform, very detailed tags to mark the semantics of your document, even though it does not disallow "bad (i.e., non-semantic) usage" of generic elements like <div>.

DaleDe
07-26-2012, 01:53 AM
I challenge the word "discourage". I think the most appropriate wording is "it offers a systematically-established semantic-oriented way of replacing the <div>'s".

In other words: HTML5 offers uniform, very detailed tags to mark the semantics of your document, even though it does not disallow "bad (i.e., non-semantic) usage" of generic elements like <div>.

Yea, I can go with that. It sounds much better and means the same thing. :)

Dale

JSWolf
07-26-2012, 10:03 PM
I challenge the word "discourage". I think the most appropriate wording is "it offers a systematically-established semantic-oriented way of replacing the <div>'s".

In other words: HTML5 offers uniform, very detailed tags to mark the semantics of your document, even though it does not disallow "bad (i.e., non-semantic) usage" of generic elements like <div>.

HTML5 is not yet standardized and has now been split off into two. So until HTML5 is standardized, ePub3 won't be able to be a standard.

http://www.webmonkey.com/2012/07/html-groups-part-ways/

Doitsu
07-27-2012, 05:17 AM
HTML5 is not yet standardized and has now been split off into two. So until HTML5 is standardized, ePub3 won't be able to be a standard.
Not necessarily, just as the current epub 2.0.1 standard does not support all xhtml elements, the new epub3 standard won't support all HTML 5 elements.
I.e. the IDPF won't have to wait until the HTML 5 standard is finalized; they can cherry-pick the new features that they'd like to be supported by ereaders using the HTML 5 specs as guidelines.

Both Amazon and Apple already followed a similar approach.

JSWolf
07-27-2012, 05:34 PM
Not necessarily, just as the current epub 2.0.1 standard does not support all xhtml elements, the new epub3 standard won't support all HTML 5 elements.
I.e. the IDPF won't have to wait until the HTML 5 standard is finalized; they can cherry-pick the new features that they'd like to be supported by ereaders using the HTML 5 specs as guidelines.

Both Amazon and Apple already followed a similar approach.

And if HTML5 ends up being different in enough respects to what they have chosen, it can come back and bit them on the ass big time.

StoryEnthusiast
07-27-2012, 08:37 PM
HTML5 is not yet standardized and has now been split off into two. So until HTML5 is standardized, ePub3 won't be able to be a standard.
I don't think HTML5 will ever be standardized as major players all want to add their own flavor to the language.

AlPe
07-28-2012, 05:21 PM
I think that there is a fundamental problem here: many (major) players think about eBooks as "small web sites in a container". Hence, they have proposed web technologies (XHTML and HTML5) as the technological core of the EPUB format.

And I think this way of reasoning is simply wrong, and it generates very bad habits, like people not using the tags properly, i.e. not marking semantically the content of the eBooks, but just "drawing" them in the same way CSS are abused for web sites.

StoryEnthusiast
07-28-2012, 09:48 PM
And I think this way of reasoning is simply wrong, and it generates very bad habits, like people not using the tags properly, i.e. not marking semantically the content of the eBooks, but just "drawing" them in the same way CSS are abused for web sites.Very interesting comment. Can you give some examples to illustrate how tags and CSS are abused?

AlPe
07-29-2012, 07:26 AM
Tags are abused when one uses them to obtain a presentational effect, instead of using them to "annotate" their content.

Many CSS files you get on the web are redundant in many ways, for example they contain elements and subelements declaring the same styles or several classes (different names) with the same set of instructions.

I think that one of the major benefits of eBooks is that (potentially) the reader-user might provide "her own CSS" (*) and enjoy the book according to her preferences. (BTW, this was also the original idea behind the HTML.) Unfortunately, many publishers just want to "transpose" a paper edition into digital format, trying to reproduce it exactly. This leads, in many cases, to styling abuses. For example, I have seen a commercial EPUB of a novel (text-only) with an associated CSS with 400+ CSS declarations. These could have been reduced to less than 30 without impacting the "functionality" of the eBook.

To be fair, there are also cases where an essential part of the book consists in its typographical features, but then one might want to think about the opportunity of opting for other formats (PDF?).



(*) of course this is impossible to achieve in general, unless everyone agrees on using a common styling CSS structure. But, at least, if a CSS inside an EPUB is written with some logic, the user is able to edit it to tweak the appearance of the eBook. (I had to do this for several eBooks.)

HarryT
07-29-2012, 10:33 AM
Very interesting comment. Can you give some examples to illustrate how tags and CSS are abused?

An example would be using <i> instead of <em>, for example. The <i> tag is "presentational" - it will always display text in italics. The <em> tag is semantic - it describes the desired effect - to emphasise the text - but leaves it up to the rendering engine to decide how to do that.

derangedhermit
07-29-2012, 02:34 PM
An example would be using <i> instead of <em>, for example. The <i> tag is "presentational" - it will always display text in italics. The <em> tag is semantic - it describes the desired effect - to emphasise the text - but leaves it up to the rendering engine to decide how to do that.
Is there a tool that supports "guided" conversion of presentational to semantic? For example, it could have a split screen: formatted display v. existing markup, so you could see <i></i> and pick <em></em> or <footnote></footnote> (or whatever).

Basically, replace markup as directed, ideally with some smarts. Not "automated", but faster and easier than manual editing in a text editor.

ghostyjack
07-30-2012, 03:51 PM
For <i></i> and <em></em>, I tend to do S&R, looking for i> and em> and then have it replace the appropriate one with the other option.

It does it one at a time, but it only takes me no more than 15mins for a full-size novel.

StoryEnthusiast
07-30-2012, 08:26 PM
If <em></em> is for emphasizing text, then how do you indicate whether you want to emphasize with italics or bold?

derangedhermit
07-30-2012, 10:50 PM
If <em></em> is for emphasizing text, then how do you indicate whether you want to emphasize with italics or bold?
You do not have to indicate it. If you choose to, you use CSS. Or just use CSS classes to start with, see: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_phrase_elements.asp and links from there.

HarryT
07-31-2012, 02:20 AM
If <em></em> is for emphasizing text, then how do you indicate whether you want to emphasize with italics or bold?

<em> is the semantic equivalent of <i>.
<strong> is the semantic equivalent of <b>.

StoryEnthusiast
07-31-2012, 04:40 AM
<em> is the semantic equivalent of <i>.
<strong> is the semantic equivalent of <b>.
Thank you! Funny thought, I now realize that in many of my HTML files contain both <i></i> and <strong></strong>.

Jellby
07-31-2012, 05:33 AM
If <em></em> is for emphasizing text, then how do you indicate whether you want to emphasize with italics or bold?

That's not for HTML to say. It should only say it is emphasized, or, at most, why it is emphasized (by adding classes, for instance).

The "how" is the CSS job.

HarryT
07-31-2012, 05:43 AM
That's not for HTML to say. It should only say it is emphasized, or, at most, why it is emphasized (by adding classes, for instance).

The "how" is the CSS job.

It's true to say, though, that <strong> is more emphatic than <em>. In pretty much every browser, <em> is rendered with italics, and <strong> with bold, but a text-to-speech program might do something entirely different with them, for example.

StoryEnthusiast
07-31-2012, 09:00 PM
but a text-to-speech program might do something entirely different with them, for example.That's a very interesting observation. Voice will be a very important part in how we interact with the web.

me too
08-14-2012, 02:23 AM
i am very happy to inform that i had created the epub3, and embedded many features in it.

JSWolf
08-14-2012, 01:19 PM
i am very happy to inform that i had created the epub3, and embedded many features in it.

If this is a book that's going to be for sale, it won't sell well at all as most readers/reading apps don't support ePub 3. You may just have wasted your time creating this.

AlexBell
08-15-2012, 02:18 AM
If this is a book that's going to be for sale, it won't sell well at all as most readers/reading apps don't support ePub 3. You may just have wasted your time creating this.

Except that he or she has worked very hard to produce the ePub3, has learned a lot, and has the satisfaction of achieving something which will be valuable in future.

JSWolf
08-15-2012, 09:55 AM
Except that he or she has worked very hard to produce the ePub3, has learned a lot, and has the satisfaction of achieving something which will be valuable in future.

True, but if this is an eBook for sale, then it needs to be ePub 2, not ePub 3.

DaleDe
08-15-2012, 12:22 PM
i am very happy to inform that i had created the epub3, and embedded many features in it.

congratulations, what eBook reader or reader program did you test it on?

Dale

me too
08-17-2012, 02:48 AM
readium is the one i used,it supports almost all features,and i am always happy to help if any one needs any assistance.
sir JSWolf ,
i am a software engineer by profession not an epub publisher,so nothing to do with the version of epub(epub3 or epub2)
thank you all