Dear Mobilereaders,

just a few days ago we all saw the news (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17202) about the Polymer Vision Readius, the rollable ePaper solution we have been hearing about for a while now.

It appears that the device is almost ready for prime time and we have been able to get a representative from PV to join our forums (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=127565#post127565) and answer your questions about the Readius and other upcoming Polymer Vision devices.

So now let's go, here is your chance to learn about - and perhaps even influence - the progress of a brand-new line of eReading solutions!

:thumbsup:

Well, I have just a laundry list of questions! :grin: I'm a huge, huge fan of flexible e-paper. That's what will really change the world...

So here are a few questions to start with. These first ones might all be confidential until the Readius is close to release...? What are the Readius's specs? Display size, refresh rate, resolution, battery life? What's your intended market and kinds of use? E-books readers? Business? Etc.? When do you think we'll be able to buy one? :)
Okay, now that I got those out of the way, here are some more general questions! How quickly do you think we'll see widespread manufacturing of flexible e-paper? Will mass manufacture of plastic-based flexible electronics eventually make these a lot cheaper? When do you think we'll see multiple flexible e-paper devices on the market? What's your plan for what comes after Readius? Bigger screen? Roll-up instead of fold-up? What were some of the technical challenges you had to overcome in the Readius? What's your take on UI design for slow-refresh e-ink displays? I had always thought that a great thing would be to bind multiple sheets of e-paper into a book-like form factor... do you think that will someday be technically feasible? Economical?
And of course, many thanks in advance to anyone from Polymer Vision who drops in to answer our questions!

Here is what I like to know: Does rolling of the screen have a negative impact on the screen itself? Could it get damaged through the process over time?

Good to see many questions. See questions below. BTW will any of you attend MWC 11-14 febr. in Barcelona to see the new products and demos? I can provide entry to the fairground if needed.
- file formats that will be supported from start onwards: pdf + HTML + ASCII. The intention is to keep the Readius an open platform. More formats will be added depending on content deals we make.
- Bigger screens: there is no technological barrier to move to bigger display sizes in the future. And this will happen in a few years from now.
- Specs: 5", QVGA 240x320, refresh <<1s, battery life based on reading only is about 30 hours. Since we have UMTS/3G connectivity (and even DVB-H) available as well the actual battery life will depend very much on user profile.
- How quickly do you think we'll see widespread manufacturing of flexible e-paper?
Thomas: PV is the first company in the world to start up mass manufacturing of rollable displays so it is difficult to judge rest of the industry (that focus on flexible iso. rollable). I expect more production starts late 2008.
- Will mass manufacture of plastic-based flexible electronics eventually make these a lot cheaper?
Thomas: Yes indeed, specifically for rollable displays these can ulitmately become cost competitive with LCD in similar volumes.
- When do you think we'll see multiple flexible e-paper devices on the market?
Thomas: 2009?
- What's your plan for what comes after Readius? Bigger screen? Roll-up instead of fold-up?
Thomas: bigger, higher resolution, rolling, touch.
- What were some of the technical challenges you had to overcome in the Readius?
Thomas: 15 years of R&D have been spent on developing organic electronics and making them rollable and then making them commercially sellable.
- What's your take on UI design for slow-refresh e-ink displays?
Thomas: the complete UI design (buttons, sw etc) of the Readius is designed around the characteristics of the display. Demo's will be on our website from febr onwards. (or come to Barcelona)
- I had always thought that a great thing would be to bind multiple sheets of e-paper into a book-like form factor... do you think that will someday be technically feasible? Economical?
Thomas: Technically possible yes, but commercially viable?? (to be honest I have some personal doubts about flexibel)

Forgot to answer TadW question:
1 of the key areas we have been working on over the last years is to move from laboratorium stage (wow its works) to commercial products (wow it still works after thousands of rolls in/out etc.). We would never launch the product without being able to guarantee years of usage in a commercial environment.

Thomas thanks for all this information - if everything goes well 2009 looks like the year this thing really takes off - bigger displays (A4) are to my mind the critical turning point.

Please do not underestimate the role of "white space" as an aid to reading, especially of complex material, an A4 size is not just bigger, it creates typographical space as well, though A5 is best for most material (displaying two pages is a distinct virtue when reading is fast, sometimes more text per screen requires generous white space around it - cramming the margins is not always a good idea).

Big print also requires big pages.

So long as displays were rigid portability restricts size absolutely, flexible, rollable, epaper is the greatest blessing we could have. Thank you and all the best in your venture.

Will the power be supplied by a bespoke battery solution or will you be using widely available batteries like AA's (hint, this would be a good thing :) )

PDF and HTML? Have you guys tried to re-flow a PDF file? Do you support on-board font scaling?


-d

Thomas

Thanks a lot for answers.
Very interesting indeed.

Thanks Thomas for giving us some great info on a really exciting new technology and device. I'm sure that there are a lot of people becoming very excited about what is in store from Polymer Vision!

Now that we're all excited about the current device, may I add a few more questions about how much this technology might change the display landscape in the near future...
*) Is it a simple matter to move up to VGA resolutions?
*) Is that resolution increase more likely to come from larger displays, or can it be done in the smaller size also?
*) Are you actively working on color versions?
*) Do you see the possibility of this display technology being adopted for smartphones or MID/UMPC-like devices? (E-ink, for example, seems to be inappropriate with current refresh rates for general computing. Does the flexible display technology have promise for general computing use?)
*) Is it likely that backlights or touch screens can be added to the displays?

Thanks again for sharing this exciting info with us!

1. Batteries will be rechargeable type of batteries.
2. On board font scaling will be included.
3. Roadmap related questions:
- Resolution is being worked on, also with 5" display. But also size of display, touch, light (backlight is not possible with e-paper display) and colour.
- It is Polymer Vision's vision to "put a rollable display in every mobile device"! For this to happen full colour video capabilities are a requirement.

The issue that matters most to me (above Color, above screen size, above roll-up capability) is resolution. Not resolution as in "more pixels on a bigger screen," but rather much higher DPI. I'd like 300 DPI minimum. 600 or 1200 would be better. Is there any prospect of (say) a 6" diagonal 600DPI display? Anywhere on the horizon at all?

This is really a key issue for competing with paper. Ordinary paperbacks are printed between 400 and 600DPI. Quality glossy magazines and textbooks sometimes run up to 3000DPI. When can I have a high-quality display like that?

Xenophon

Ummm... I realize that such a screen would be impossibly expensive at the moment. I guess I really mean to ask: when can we have something like that at prices not TOO much worse than the current batch of displays?

1. Batteries will be rechargeable type of batteries.
In that case, my question is whether the battery is user replaceable, or will it have to be sent in for service if it ever needs to be replaced?

The issue that matters most to me (above Color, above screen size, above roll-up capability) is resolution. Not resolution as in "more pixels on a bigger screen," but rather much higher DPI. I'd like 300 DPI minimum. 600 or 1200 would be better. Is there any prospect of (say) a 6" diagonal 600DPI display? Anywhere on the horizon at all?

Just to put that in some context, I want to point out that 600 DPI in a 6" diagonal screen would mean a screen with resolution 2160x2880... which is pretty high-end even for a desktop, let alone a mobile device!

At this point, the graphics card (and also the power use) becomes the limiting factor. Until graphics cards get a LOT smaller and more power-efficient, you'll probably end up trading off between resolution and refresh rate, since no mobile graphics card will be able to do high-rez AND high-refresh at the same time.

Of course, by high-refresh, I mean video speeds. Once e-ink itself becomes faster, even refreshing a high-resolution screen once should be pretty much instantaneous to the human eye...

Just to put that in some context, I want to point out that 600 DPI in a 6" diagonal screen would mean a screen with resolution 2160x2880... which is pretty high-end even for a desktop, let alone a mobile device!

At this point, the graphics card (and also the power use) becomes the limiting factor. Until graphics cards get a LOT smaller and more power-efficient, you'll probably end up trading off between resolution and refresh rate, since no mobile graphics card will be able to do high-rez AND high-refresh at the same time.

Of course, by high-refresh, I mean video speeds. Once e-ink itself becomes faster, even refreshing a high-resolution screen once should be pretty much instantaneous to the human eye...


I believe this to be an extreme requirement and not needed by most users. If you try and read 4 pt fonts then it could be important.

Dale

I have a very simple request...more pictures... ;)
So far we have a few shots of prototype devices, but no real collection of photos of the "final" hardware design. Maybe you could provide some, either post them here or send them to me by email (you've got my address since I contacted you) and I'll upload them.

Thanks.

Just to put that in some context, I want to point out that 600 DPI in a 6" diagonal screen would mean a screen with resolution 2160x2880... which is pretty high-end even for a desktop, let alone a mobile device!

At this point, the graphics card (and also the power use) becomes the limiting factor. Until graphics cards get a LOT smaller and more power-efficient, you'll probably end up trading off between resolution and refresh rate, since no mobile graphics card will be able to do high-rez AND high-refresh at the same time.

Of course, by high-refresh, I mean video speeds. Once e-ink itself becomes faster, even refreshing a high-resolution screen once should be pretty much instantaneous to the human eye...
I didn't ask for high-speed refresh. I care a lot more about the DPI than I do about the refresh speed (as long as refresh is no slower than it is now). Our current .8-second refresh will do. I wouldn't mind .1-second refresh, of course (or even faster), but I'm looking for a book-reading device, not a video device.

I believe this to be an extreme requirement and not needed by most users. If you try and read 4 pt fonts then it could be important.
Tell that to all the people who stopped buying 300DPI printers when 600 and 1200 became available. The text really does look better with fewer jaggies; it's easier to read too. It also allows you to drop down a text-size or so without negative impact on readability (12-points to 10, or 10 down to 8 for example), which lets you put more content on a page. All good stuff.

I'd choose an improvement in DPI over an improvement in levels of gray-scale in a heartbeat. Likewise for any sub-video-speed refresh-rate improvements.

Xenophon

P.S. Improved contrast would be good too, but isn't quite as big a deal.

I didn't ask for high-speed refresh. I care a lot more about the DPI than I do about the refresh speed (as long as refresh is no slower than it is now). Our current .8-second refresh will do. I wouldn't mind .1-second refresh, of course (or even faster), but I'm looking for a book-reading device, not a video device.


Tell that to all the people who stopped buying 300DPI printers when 600 and 1200 became available. The text really does look better with fewer jaggies; it's easier to read too. It also allows you to drop down a text-size or so without negative impact on readability (12-points to 10, or 10 down to 8 for example), which lets you put more content on a page. All good stuff.

I'd choose an improvement in DPI over an improvement in levels of gray-scale in a heartbeat. Likewise for any sub-video-speed refresh-rate improvements.

Xenophon

P.S. Improved contrast would be good too, but isn't quite as big a deal.

Printer dpi is for pictures not for text. All of the latest stuff has photo written all over it.

dale

Printer dpi is for pictures not for text. All of the latest stuff has photo written all over it.
When speaking about inkjet printers, you are certainly correct. I was intending to be speaking about non-color laser printers -- the sort of unit that is purchased primarily for text output. Except at the very bottom end of that market, it's hard to find a 300DPI unit. Most are either 600DPI or 1200DPI. It's also worth remembering that the original LaserWriter from Apple had a 300DPI mechanism (in 1984!)... because that was the minimum for acceptable text quality with most fonts.

So, in the market-space I intended to be describing, I most respectfully disagree. The lowest resolution laser printer I've owned in the last 23 years was that very original LaserWriter. The printer after that was 600DPI (as was the next). My current multi-year-old laser printer is a 1200DPI HP unit, available for under $500. A similar unit is a necessity for anyone who prints significant amounts of text.

Xenophon

When speaking about inkjet printers, you are certainly correct. I was intending to be speaking about non-color laser printers -- the sort of unit that is purchased primarily for text output. Except at the very bottom end of that market, it's hard to find a 300DPI unit. Most are either 600DPI or 1200DPI. It's also worth remembering that the original LaserWriter from Apple had a 300DPI mechanism (in 1984!)... because that was the minimum for acceptable text quality with most fonts.

So, in the market-space I intended to be describing, I most respectfully disagree. The lowest resolution laser printer I've owned in the last 23 years was that very original LaserWriter. The printer after that was 600DPI (as was the next). My current multi-year-old laser printer is a 1200DPI HP unit, available for under $500. A similar unit is a necessity for anyone who prints significant amounts of text.

Xenophon

Sorry, I can't afford a laser writer and I can't afford a eBook reader that acts like a laser writer.

Dale

"... and I can't afford a eBook reader that acts like a laser writer." is why I was asking how long it might be until they can produce a beastie with high-res that ordinary folks can afford. Higher DPI is a bigger deal than people think. Really. Ask those very same printer manufacturers why the very first laser printers were 300DPI.

Xenophon

Could we please stop talking utter nonsense and mixing pixels per inch and dots per inch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_per_inch), which is anyway offtopic here? Thank you.

2Thomas
*) any info on pricing? will your devices be cheaper than eink?
*) could you tell us a bit more about the technology itself? Namely, does the screen consume power only when it's refreshed?

* Wrt technology please check this page for further explanation: http://www.polymervision.com/Technology/Section-13833/Index.html
Like with other e-readers e-ink/e-paper is just a part of our display. Polymer Vision's core technology is in making the electronics that manage the display effect truly rollable.
* Pricing: difficult to say since Polymer Vision will not sell to the end-user, the mobile network operator will do so in combination with a 3G broadband subscription / possible content / possible subsidy. Expect something in the range of high-end mobile products.

Further specs will only become available from mid-february onwards after we show samples of the commercial product in Barcelona at Mobile World Congress.

Thomas-

Will anyone from your company be attending the London Book Fair in April?

http://www.londonbookfair.co.uk/

Happy New Year and lots of e-reading in 2008!

We may be visiting the London Book Fair, this is not confirmed yet. Will you or your company be there?
Polymer Vision will be present at the Financial Times Media&Broadcasting conference 25-26 Febr, also in London. The conference is about digital content in an ever more mobile world.

to Thomas:

I am wondering about the "mobile phone" part:
How can I enter a new number or how can I write a SMS? Is it even possible to do so?
Do I need a headset in order to make a call with the READIUS?

And also you have mentioned "touch" to be a next thing ... Is that something which is actively beeing worked on? (And is it the answer to my first question? ;-) )

Thanks for your answers!

Dudenz;
Calls can be made from the contactlist or via reply function to previous calls. This normally covers about 95% of the calls made from a mobile phone. Typing text/numbers will be possible with a virtual keyboard and the 5 buttons but is not ideal for long text.
Calls can be made/received via a handset (wired or BT).
Touch is on the roadmap indeed but do not expect that for the first generations.



to Thomas:

I am wondering about the "mobile phone" part:
How can I enter a new number or how can I write a SMS? Is it even possible to do so?
Do I need a headset in order to make a call with the READIUS?

And also you have mentioned "touch" to be a next thing ... Is that something which is actively beeing worked on? (And is it the answer to my first question? ;-) )

Thanks for your answers!

Could we please stop talking utter nonsense and mixing pixels per inch and dots per inch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_per_inch), which is anyway offtopic here? Thank you.

As a professional printer and long time tech junkie I would have to agree. Even the iPhone, which has the highest resolution screen on the mobile scene is only 200 ppi, and is very readable (at least to my eyes) at a very small character size. Comparing it to laser printing on paper is not even realistic. While laser printer manufacturers like to tout high DPI ratings, B&W laser technology doesn't even use dots to print, it lays down solid blocks of toner which are then transfered via a fusing module onto the paper. In color printing this is slightly different as the printer usually simulates a dot screen to be able to blend CMYK inks into proper hue balance.

Even very early presses used full character slugs to place ink on paper rather than dots. The DPI ratings on laser printers are just there for comparison to ink-jet which uses a modified nozzel array to virtualize a dot screen.

While I am all for higher resolution mobile displays, especially e-paper, lets compare apples to apples here.

Thomas: Any word yet on USA availability and carrier partnerships?;)

Thomas: Any word yet on USA availability and carrier partnerships?;)

considering the current state of HSDPA build out in the US (which I completely do not understand as it is a nice real mobile broadband option but it's AT&T so that sez a lot right there) you want to make sure what you are paying a premium for will be of any benefit to you. Most of the areas on the AT&T MBB map are actually EDGE not HSDPA and will stay that way for a while.

AT&T now has HSDPA in at least one city in each of 37 U.S. states and territories, but Sprint and Verizon both have more coverage. For instance, AT&T covers only Milwaukee in Wisconsin; the two competitors have Madison, and Verizon works in Green Bay. AT&T covers only Louisville in Kentucky, where the two competitors also have Lexington. In Oregon, AT&T has Portland, but the competitors add Eugene and Salem. In Indiana, both AT&T and Sprint have Gary and Indianapolis, but you'll have to go to Verizon for high-speed coverage in Evansville, Fort Wayne, or South Bend.

Link to full article: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2156444,00.asp

And here is a list to show just how limited HSDPA coverage is in the US:

http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/popUp_3g.html

AT&T data coverage map, but it's sneaky and you have to really zoom in to find the pockets of HSDPA:

http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/

Now EDGE is almost everywhere but BFD so are Sprint & Verizon's EVDO Rev0 & 1xRTT coverage...if all you are doing is downloading ebooks then that will be adequate but it's going to be quite a premium for a service you won't see until the device is pretty much obsolete.

But that kool factor on this phone is just beyond any of that...just would be hard to justify the cost of the HSDPA hardware in the device if I would pretty much be guaranteed to never be able to use it.

So, I guess my question is...I want just a cool roll-a-way book reader... :) So, WHEN??? :)

As a professional printer and long time tech junkie I would have to agree. Even the iPhone, which has the highest resolution screen on the mobile scene is only 200 ppi, and is very readable (at least to my eyes) at a very small character size.

The Nokia Internet Tablets has 225 ppi. The OpenMoke phone Neo 1973 has 260 ppi.

Right now though, I'd much rather have a touch screen at the existing 150-ish ppi. Sure, 300ppi would be nice but being able to write on the device is much, much more important.

I've just spent about $US400 getting a Sony 505, but I'd buy a Writeus with a similar-size screen in a second even if it was $US600 delivered to Australia. Sure, making phone calls is a nice addition but without bluetooth support that's a bit of a gimmick for me (my phone is 45x105x15mm and that's about as big as I want in a phone that I have to hold up to my head all the time).

Just to put that in some context, I want to point out that 600 DPI in a 6" diagonal screen would mean a screen with resolution 2160x2880... which is pretty high-end even for a desktop, let alone a mobile device!

Yes, but rasterising it one line at a time is not too challenging even for a mobile device. Assuming a half second refresh and 4 bit display (16 grey levels) you're talking 24Mb/s output, well within the range of even a 1W processor. Sure, displaying a new highly compressed jpeg every refresh might challenge it because of the amount of processing involved, but for rendering text I think you'd be fine.

My "wallet" (a plastic box) currently has my phone in it, but also a 140x120x20mm paper notebook, a couple of pens, 10 credit-size cards and a bunch of change. If I could merge the phone and notebook with something about the notebook size that opened out to a page about 200x100mm that I could write on that would be brilliant. As was pointed out in another thread, live text recognition is not essential, an on-screen keyboard mode is fine for that, what I want from the notepad is a way to draw pictures (of my truly awful handwriting mostly). If I had the device I would want a cover for it that was fairly robust and water-resistant, and had space for a few credit cards and cash so that I could replace the whole "wallet", and just throw it in my pannier when I ride my bike to and from work. But I could make that cover/box myself if I needed to.

Oooh, samples of my notebook contents here: http://moz.geek.nz/mozbike/build/long-2/one-less-ute-01.jpg http://moz.geek.nz/mozbike/build/long-2/one-less-ute-03.jpg
(scan of pages about 200mm wide from memory). I don't expect to be able to OCR that handwriting for a very long time, and I'd be happy to do it on my computer rather than my phone.