View Full Version : Dilemma


astra
12-13-2007, 11:55 AM
I have a dilemma now.

I would like to read The Urth? I, the New Sun 5 book series.
I wanted to buy them ....cannot. Ebooks do not exist.
I have the first volume (2 books in one volume) in the series. I bought it 1 years ago.

On the darknet I could download all of them.

What shell I do?

Reading a paper book - out of question (look at post number 6 for more details).

So, there are 2 ways as far as I can see.

1. Forget about it for a few years and hope that one day the publishers will have a mercy and publish ebooks or maybe they will not? or maybe when they do it the writer will no longer be alive? In this case there is a chance that the writer will never see my money...

2. I could buy the rest of the series in paper back editions. Then download ebooks from darknet. Edit them accordingly and read them. In this case, writer will be compensated for his work, because I will buy 2 more books while the writer is alive vs. buying ebooks in some near or not so near future. (In this case the publishers will get my money too!)

Steve Jordan suggested another way:
3. Buy paperbacks, scan and OCR them.
One should take into the account that I live in the UK where it is illegal to scan my paperbacks.

What should I do?

igorsk
12-13-2007, 11:58 AM
Maybe you should mention the actual question...

astra
12-13-2007, 12:01 PM
Sorry, I never created a poll and was testing it :)

the first post should have the question now.

HarryT
12-13-2007, 12:01 PM
Reading a paper book - out of question.


Why? Owning an eBook reader doesn't mean that you can't read paper books too. You are allowed to do both :).

astra
12-13-2007, 12:06 PM
By the law there is only one option. Number 1.
The rest of the options are illegal for me by the law.

Ethically...I believe option 2 is the way to go.

Options 3 is unacceptable by me on a basis that it would take me ages to scan the books.

astra
12-13-2007, 12:08 PM
Why? Owning an eBook reader doesn't mean that you can't read paper books too. You are allowed to do both :).

After buying ebook reader I have changed my reading habbits. I take my reader everywhere with me. When I have a lanch at work, I eat and then read for the rest of 1 hour time.
I don't want to carry the book with me. Also, I didn't buy ebook reader where I can change font size etc. to go backwards.

HarryT
12-13-2007, 12:25 PM
I still regularly read paper books. Many of the books I want to read aren't available as eBooks, and I'm certainly not going to download them illegally!

Alisa
12-13-2007, 12:40 PM
Personally, I would feel ok ethically with downloading the books if I own them but I would never advise someone else to do something illegal.

astra
12-13-2007, 12:40 PM
I still regularly read paper books. Many of the books I want to read aren't available as eBooks, and I'm certainly not going to download them illegally!

I see. Fair enough.

astra
12-13-2007, 12:42 PM
Personally, I would feel ok ethically with downloading the books if I own them but I would never advise someone else to do something illegal.

I think I had to word my question a bit differently.

Akin to What whould you do in a situation like that?
So, that people do not feel as if they give an advice.

I will send PM to admin and see if it can be changed.

HarryT
12-13-2007, 12:48 PM
I've edited the question for you.

astra
12-13-2007, 12:49 PM
I've edited the question for you.

:rofl:
Now check you PM please :)

:2thumbsup

JSWolf
12-13-2007, 01:38 PM
The problem is that these books are published by TOR and we all know by know how really bad TOR is as a publishing company when it comes to ebooks.

JSWolf
12-13-2007, 01:49 PM
I had to add another option to the thread as none of them fit what I would do.

astra
12-13-2007, 02:13 PM
:rolleyes:

OK!

Lexicon
12-13-2007, 02:42 PM
I'd go for option 2, as far as I'm concerned if I buy a book I'm actually buying a license to read the words inside. As long as I have paid for the right to read something I have no qualms about seeking out those same words in another form.

Regarding option 3; I wouldn't worry too much about the legalities of scanning the books you own, as long as you don't distribute the eBook.

Firstly there is almost no chance that anybody would find out you were scanning your own books. Secondly even if publishers knew for a fact that you were doing so they would not prosecute - it would be a public relations nightmare.

Prosecuting people for unauthorised sharing is one thing, at least some of the public would see such proceedings as being just. Prosecuting for format shifting when one has paid to access the content is something else, the vast majority of the public would consider that an unfair abuse of power by the publisher.

astra
12-13-2007, 04:57 PM
Regarding option 3; I wouldn't worry too much about the legalities of scanning the books you own, as long as you don't distribute the eBook.

Firstly there is almost no chance that anybody would find out you were scanning your own books. Secondly even if publishers knew for a fact that you were doing so they would not prosecute - it would be a public relations nightmare.

Prosecuting people for unauthorised sharing is one thing, at least some of the public would see such proceedings as being just. Prosecuting for format shifting when one has paid to access the content is something else, the vast majority of the public would consider that an unfair abuse of power by the publisher.

I agree.
The reason why I pointed out that it is illegal was to show that there is no difference between option 2 and 3 - both illegal.

Penforhire
12-13-2007, 07:36 PM
Now I'm wondering what Gene Wolfe would do...

Barcey
12-13-2007, 11:19 PM
You can always write a letter to Tor and advise them why they aren't getting your money. It probably won't change anything but it can be very therapeutic to vent.

Liviu_5
12-14-2007, 12:48 AM
There is another option - buy the books used and again Tor does not get any of your money.

HappyMartin
12-14-2007, 01:02 AM
It is a little embarrassing to admit but I had never heard of torrents or the darknet before participating on this forum. I tried to find a few books to see what all the fuss was about and ended up in a strange part of the net where free software was being offered as well as some rather curious, I hope they were exaggerating, sexual activities. Never found any books. You obviously need to be a lot smarter than me to find all this pirated books.

If I cannot find the book legally then I simply find something else to read. Perhaps that is my loss but as a person in business I think that if I refuse to supply a need then it is my loss. I longer read p books at all.

gwynevans
12-14-2007, 03:58 AM
While the letter of the law may differ (IANAL), it doesn't seem to me that downloading & using, on your own reader, an ebook version of an pbook that you own is any different from using the pbook itself.

astra
12-14-2007, 04:04 AM
It is a little embarrassing to admit but I had never heard of torrents or the darknet before participating on this forum. I tried to find a few books to see what all the fuss was about and ended up in a strange part of the net where free software was being offered as well as some rather curious, I hope they were exaggerating, sexual activities. Never found any books. You obviously need to be a lot smarter than me to find all this pirated books.

If I cannot find the book legally then I simply find something else to read. Perhaps that is my loss but as a person in business I think that if I refuse to supply a need then it is my loss. I longer read p books at all.

It is deffinitely not websites :) and no torrents for me :)

alexxxm
12-14-2007, 07:26 AM
I'm a bit disappointed to see that this poll is clearly missing a possible answer, an answer that I would choose at once ...

"Download the ebook from darknet" and that's all.

There, I admit it: I downloaded ebooks from darknet (mostly from IRC channels) since my day-1 with ebook devices, with my brand new Rocket.
And with my new Sony Reader I'm keeping on.

Background info: me and my wife own ~ 3000 pbooks, and both of us keep on considering them having much more value in themselves than ebooks - I dont want to stray on a different topic, but we are book feticists, and for us the substance of the book will never be replaced by any digital medium.

However.

Life being short as it is, it's always hard to find good books (and music, and movies...) worth the time you will invest on them.
For me, downloading books from IRC is exactly the same that downloading an mp3 from the net: it saves me the stress of avoiding a big amount of junk, and allows me to find a few precious gems - which I'm then more than happy to buy as CD.
I happen to like a lot science fiction, which - also if I find it a genre with the same dignity as other literary fields - is more filled with junk than the average. All the authors I liked in ebook format I immediately bought in hardcover, from Gibson to Sterling, from Simak to Arkady&Boris Strugatsky ...

Is this stealing? I completely agree.
As I agree to the fact that I happened in my life to (taken from an older post) a) exceed the speed limit while driving, b) Lend someone a tape/dvd or a tv program, c) making a mix CD form your favourite album tracks ... (let me add d) smoking a joint).

Whenever I find an author I like to read I'm more than happy to pay for its creative process, buying the p-book, although I'd prefer to pay him directly - nowadays the digital medium allows you to find new ways to directly relate the artist and his fanbase, e.g. the Radiohead: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7082627.stm .

I doubt the Walkman revolution would have happened without everybody being able to tape a copy of a friend's LP.
I doubt there is more than 1% of mp3 portable players storing just songs legally downloaded.
I doubt also you would have a VCR in every house if people used it just to watch their sons birthday recorded, and not to record a movie from TV.

Finally, I believe that ebook devices will never really break through until people will realize that books can be downloaded as easily as songs and TV shows.
And it will be to the people downloading them to decide if to pay the author what they deserve - as I do.


Alessandro

jasonkchapman
12-14-2007, 07:44 AM
All the authors I liked in ebook format I immediately bought in hardcover, from Gibson to Sterling, from Simak to Arkady&Boris Strugatsky ...

The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?

I think that's one of the reasons that there is so much rancor around the subject. There are "right now" solutions bumping up against "industry future" needs and the other way around. If everyone agreed with and followed your example, it would guarantee p-book dominance for a long time to come, and would likely lead to publishers moving toward more complex paper protection schemes like the "magic dots" used for currency. It would doom e-books to little more than a promotional scheme for p-books.

Liviu_5
12-14-2007, 09:13 AM
The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?


In which future? The one with the personal flying cars :)?

I still do not understand why it is a given that because say music is going digital, and movies are going digital, books will go the same way? Music and movies were digital before the mp3's and avi's and the like, they just were cd's and dvd's so the transition was natural.

I just do not see books going all digital in the foreseeable future for many reasons. There will be more e-books, sure, they may increase in market share, sure, though even there I am curious if they will get to 10% in the next 5-10 years.

Right now and for the foreseeable future the big problem for most published authors is obscurity not piracy, while for most people wanting to be authors is "ability to be published" and in both respects e-books and the Net are huge helps if handled properly.

vivaldirules
12-14-2007, 09:27 AM
I find it quite curious and depressing that people can so easily justify behaviours that I think should somehow just be clearly wrong to them. Surely if people thought clearly about it they could see it so. I personally could not imagine downloading ebooks (or copying, borrowing, taking, or paying for anything) that was posted by thieves - people who are denying proper payment of the author and publisher for what they are getting. I don't see how pointing out that if you've become particularly fond of ebooks that you'll never read pbooks again is at all relevant. Or that the publisher is rotten. And it seems nutty to me to try to rationalize the act by buying the paperback. Yes, the author and publisher are now getting paid. But you're still using, perhaps encouraging, the theft. I just don't get it.

alexxxm
12-14-2007, 09:39 AM
The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?

hope I won't be around by then...

Alessandro

alexxxm
12-14-2007, 09:53 AM
I find it quite curious and depressing that people can so easily justify behaviours that I think should somehow just be clearly wrong to them. Surely if people thought clearly about it they could see it so.
Don't be depressed - it is the nature of moral systems.

I personally could not imagine downloading ebooks (or copying, borrowing, taking, or paying for anything) that was posted by thieves - people who are denying proper payment of the author and publisher for what they are getting. I don't see how pointing out that if you've become particularly fond of ebooks that you'll never read pbooks again is at all relevant. Or that the publisher is rotten. And it seems nutty to me to try to rationalize the act by buying the paperback. Yes, the author and publisher are now getting paid. But you're still using, perhaps encouraging, the theft. I just don't get it.
Sorry, you've misunderstood me, I guess: I am particularly fond of P-books - not ebooks: for me e-books are simply a way of browsing the literature.
Anyway, I am not rationalizing: I am actually paying for what I think these works are worth - if any. If, as it's often the case, it is junk, I'm not paying, nor I'm asking the author to pay ME for the time I lost reading it ;-)
If I buy a pack of eggs at the supermarket and find they're rotten, I can return them ... try it with a book! Now, the digital system finally allows me to do the same with ebooks.

Anyway, as I told I am perfectly aware that, under most current laws, this is stealing. But, <FOR ME>, ethically it isnt so.


Alessandro

jasonkchapman
12-14-2007, 10:40 AM
In which future? The one with the personal flying cars :)?

Yes, that's the one I meant. And don't leave out cities on the moon.

I still do not understand why it is a given that because say music is going digital, and movies are going digital, books will go the same way? Music and movies were digital before the mp3's and avi's and the like, they just were cd's and dvd's so the transition was natural.

Either the industry moves forward or it doesn't. Typesetting and pre-press are already digital, too. Granted it's not the end product, but it still starts out there.

Here's the thing. Much of the discussion on the numerous copyright- and DRM-related threads has revolved around the ethics and morality of copyright infringement of various degrees. Much of it has included an array of legitimate explanations, justifications, and rationalizations that end up with something along the lines of "I buy a p-book (the same one, the author's next, etc.) so it's all good."

While some participants are discussing how an all-e-book industry could actually work for consumers, creators, and publishers, others are discussing the status quo. Frankly, it's all beginning to convince me to, after almost ten years, dump the entire e-book concept and campaign for paper until the end of civilization.

One of the marvelous things about e-books is that they open up avenues to writers whose work, for one reason or another, just doesn't fit the publishing industry's cherished formula for acquisition. In paper, the alternative is small presses, but the small press business is almost impossible to do profitably. The costs are overwhelming. That leaves e-publishing, which promises to give a great big megaphone to voices that are usually drowned out by the mega-media-marketing campaigns of major houses.

If e-books are not the future, then they are nothing more than a sales gimmick for p-books. If that's true, and the market sets the value now at zero, then another avenue falls to the major publishers, because they'll be the only ones who can afford to take the loss as part of a marketing strategy.

Liviu_5
12-14-2007, 11:44 AM
Either the industry moves forward or it doesn't. Typesetting and pre-press are already digital, too. Granted it's not the end product, but it still starts out there.

One of the marvelous things about e-books is that they open up avenues to writers whose work, for one reason or another, just doesn't fit the publishing industry's cherished formula for acquisition. In paper, the alternative is small presses, but the small press business is almost impossible to do profitably. The costs are overwhelming. That leaves e-publishing, which promises to give a great big megaphone to voices that are usually drowned out by the mega-media-marketing campaigns of major houses.


Personally I see e-books as an alternative form of publishing, not a replacement, at least not in the foreseeable future (a good exercise in imagination is to think yourself in 1800 or 1900 to see how pointless - though it can be fun or not depending if you are in the gloom and doom camp or in the singularity/end of scarcity comes and we'll live for a long while one - is to predict the future over more than a generation or two).

For some people it will be a way to sell more p-books, for some it will be the only form for a reason or another. Today the publishing industry is doing quite well despite perception to the contrary (maybe the literary fiction genre is not and is kept for prestige, but popular genres do quite well) and there is a lot of upside.

Kids and people more generally not reading so much - well for once it's not clear when they read that much at least here in America, for another get interesting books for them out and as we all know, they sell very well.

Sure the news industry is restructuring, many magazines are in decline, but those were always ephemeral things and the Net as the current top ephemeral thing is wiping the floor with them, but so what.

Despite the opinions of some, books are not and have not been ephemeral and they are here to stay, both e and print, in fixed form by and large and not in some constantly changing "cloud in the sky"

andyafro
12-14-2007, 12:34 PM
I say get them from darknet if the publisher has not made them in ebook format yet. It's the company's fault for not keeping up with the pace. Either purchase the dead tree format from the shops or once they are there in ebook format purchase them then but untill then go for the darknet. We are consumers if the company's cannot provide us with what we want we will find it elsewhere till they do. It's really there fault for not making them available and any money lost because it's not there yet is really down to them.

I would find it on darknet if i couldnt find it anywhere else, it's your choice really, it's not wrong to download, it's wrong to then share or upload it again once you have it.

Alisa
12-14-2007, 01:05 PM
The problem with this is that it only works right now, while e-books are a tiny part of the market and p-books dominate. What happens in the future, when e-books dominate? What happens currently when the author's books are only available as e-books and there are no p-books?

I think that's one of the reasons that there is so much rancor around the subject. There are "right now" solutions bumping up against "industry future" needs and the other way around. If everyone agreed with and followed your example, it would guarantee p-book dominance for a long time to come, and would likely lead to publishers moving toward more complex paper protection schemes like the "magic dots" used for currency. It would doom e-books to little more than a promotional scheme for p-books.

I agree. Folks wonder why publishers are so reticent to publish in electronic form since it so obviously seems to be the way of the future to us. Customers want it, but it seems to me that until they find a way that they think they can preserve their power base as gatekeepers, or trade it for something equally lucrative, they're going to resist. Electronic publishing puts more power in the hands of the authors. Publishers bring a lot to the table with their editing and marketing services but traditionally they've also held massive power with all but star authors because they controlled access to the expensive processes of printing and distribution. They are still highly relevant in electronic publishing but possibly not as powerful as the current players want.

nekokami
12-14-2007, 01:31 PM
I'm a bit disappointed to see that this poll is clearly missing a possible answer, an answer that I would choose at once ...

"Download the ebook from darknet" and that's all.

I was actually very pleased that this option isn't included. I thought it indicated a nice maturity around the topic. But I suppose for completeness' sake it should be. :rolleyes:

JSWolf
12-14-2007, 01:40 PM
I was actually very pleased that this option isn't included. I thought it indicated a nice maturity around the topic. But I suppose for completeness' sake it should be. :rolleyes:
OK, darknet option added.

But what I want to know is how easy/hard is it to take the electronic form of the book used to print and convert it to an ebook that we can read?

6charlong
12-14-2007, 02:53 PM
OK, darknet option added.

But what I want to know is how easy/hard is it to take the electronic form of the book used to print and convert it to an ebook that we can read?

This issue is central to the problems facing the big publishing houses. They are part of the capitalist economy (Iíll call it that regardless whether itís publicly or privately owned) in that they control vast resources dedicated to publishing. The big publishers have always been confronted by small publishersóletís call them the free enterprise sector of the economyótraditionally the economy where few resources are needed to start a business so anyone can venture in. The so-called darknet belongs in whatís being called the ďwikiĒ sector, which is a new thing (or an old thing in new clothes, but thatís a digression).

Of course, the Internet creates a new economic reality for them all. It levels the playing field for free enterprisers because it enables small publishers and even individual authors to reach a wider audience without needing a lot of land, labor and capital to start. The Internet also provides the reality in which the wiki economy exists.

Itís widely accepted that technologies are generally additive: a new technology supplements the old one and seldom (if ever) replaces it entirely. eBooks are a key part of this new economic reality for publishers. They offer so many advantages that they can not be buried. So how can an oligopoly that has previously controlled the dissemination of ideas continue in that role? Itís likely that they can no longer control it all, as many posting to this thread have pointed out. The logical strategy for big publishers is: if you canít beat them, join them. I think thatís also been pointed out.

There are many ways big publishers can use eBooks to increase sales: I donít think that many, at least in open societies, ever relished controlling ideas.

The big publisherís problem is change. A sea-change like this means short-term losses to those working in the industry in order to preserve the long-term interests of the industry. Itís hard to get people to think up innovative ways to eliminate their own job, especially when they love their work!

Just my 2-cents.

tompe
12-14-2007, 03:33 PM
I find it quite curious and depressing that people can so easily justify behaviours that I think should somehow just be clearly wrong to them. Surely if people thought clearly about it they could see it so.

I thinks it is a slippery slope and a psychological think. I have watched myself and friends going from "its is wrong, you do not do it" to downloading TV series without problem. And it usually starts by you getting copies from friends and and then just test for fun to download and first you just download things that are not available and you cannot buy and so on. Since I have seen many people do that I think it is just how humans work. I would be more than happy to pay for downloading TV series if the price was reasonable and it was as convenient as it is now downloading things illegally but it is still not possible.

DaleDe
12-14-2007, 03:35 PM
I thinks it is a slippery slope and a psychological think. I have watched myself and friends going from "its is wrong, you do not do it" to downloading TV series without problem. And it usually starts by you getting copies from friends and and then just test for fun to download and first you just download things that are not available and you cannot buy and so on. Since I have seen many people do that I think it is just how humans work. I would be more than happy to pay for downloading TV series if the price was reasonable and it was as convenient as it is now downloading things illegally but it is still not possible.

Actually in the USA it is possible on practically any new series by the networks. Most shows can be watched for free on the network website or downloaded for $2 from iTunes.

Dale

tompe
12-14-2007, 03:37 PM
Actually in the USA it is possible on practically any new series by the networks. Most shows can be watched for free on the network website or downloaded for $2 from iTunes.


Good to hear. Maybe I should check if it works from other countries and using Linux.

nekokami
12-14-2007, 04:15 PM
But what I want to know is how easy/hard is it to take the electronic form of the book used to print and convert it to an ebook that we can read?
Someone in another thread said that publishers usually don't keep the digital versions after the paper printing is set up. If that's the case, it could be quite a pain to get good e versions done for many publishers. (It would be embarrassing if they have to go to the darknet for scans of their backlists!)

andyafro
12-14-2007, 05:28 PM
This is what i mean
Today i found a great book (the book with no name by anonymous) and now that i have seen it, it will bother me till i have read it (i'm like a child at christmas with books sometimes) but it is not available in electronic format (it is on amazon so u might get it on a kindle) just dead tree paperback and now i want it, so i have no choice but to buy it in paperback but now i gotta lug that around with my reader (it comes everywhere) Whats the point? Now if it appeared on the darknet right now i would download it without even thinking bout it and for no other reason other then i have a reader and im feel it should not only be available to be in my format but in this day and age, this digital one i should be able to have it now right now, not in 4 days, i don't want to wait anymore, if i wanted to wait i wouldn't of bought a reader, thats the point, you see something, you want it, you pay for it, it's your in 2 minutes.

But now i gotta wait 4 days and thats not fair, now i have a reader, when i do have to buy a paperback it feels like going back to a 56k modem when you got broadband.

funny thing is they have the first 2 chapters to read digitally online.

If anyone does find this book anywhere in electronic format please let me know.

It's called
The Book With No Name by Anonymous (Looks Fantastic)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-No-Name/dp/1847280463

first 2 chapters are here http://www.thebookwithnoname.com/

Amalthia
12-14-2007, 05:30 PM
So far I've found it much easier to find my favorite tv series via torrents than itunes, for example The Invisible Man is not listed at I-tunes at all but I can find it via torrents. (it's not exactly easy to find in stores either) I won't even go into the absurd prices they are charging for Star Trek the Next Generation dvds.

but yeah downloading via Torrents is a slippery slope. Me I love my favorite TV shows and do my best to support them by buying the DVDs when they are released. (as long as it's not priced at 80 dollars, really I think 20-40 is reasonable for one season)

As for ebooks it's driving me nuts that I can't find some authors on darknet or ebook publishers at all! I'm so tempted to buy my own OCR scanner and scan my own book collection in because I can't find books I own on paper anywhere on the net. And I can't find some books via darknet that are at ebook publisher's sites but cost way too much. No one should have to pay 30 bucks for an ebook, that's just crazy. Especially for a book that is already in paperback.

Um anyways, I'm all for downloading via darknet if you can't find the book at any ebook stores. It's not your fault they aren't selling legal ebook copies.

Kajti
12-14-2007, 08:58 PM
I had never heard of torrents or the darknet
BitTorrent is only one type of P2P app. For books, others like eMule or Direct Connect are probably better, with IRC techier but better still, and newsgroups easier. Websites aren't involved much.
I longer read p books at all.
Me, too. Newspapers and magazines, yes, but I'm strictly ebook in reading these days. I specifically bought an expensive reading device so that would be the last I'd have to pay for books, given how easily they can be downloaded from various places. Doesn't matter if they're for sale: they're available. (Just like TV shows. It's not like someone in the US could get the Canadian spy/crime series Intelligence or the New Zealand series Orange Roughies legitimately anywhere.)

JSWolf
12-15-2007, 04:08 AM
Someone in another thread said that publishers usually don't keep the digital versions after the paper printing is set up. If that's the case, it could be quite a pain to get good e versions done for many publishers. (It would be embarrassing if they have to go to the darknet for scans of their backlists!)
But why not keep digitial versions to be used a ebooks? Why have to then take a paper copy and have to scan/ORC it? It would seem to me to be a lot easier to take the ready-to-go digital copy and format shift it. Heck, I'd love to get a job preparing ebooks from digital content.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 07:36 AM
But why not keep digitial versions to be used a ebooks? Why have to then take a paper copy and have to scan/ORC it? It would seem to me to be a lot easier to take the ready-to-go digital copy and format shift it. Heck, I'd love to get a job preparing ebooks from digital content.

...for reasons many have posted here, most of them related to the nature of being middlemen: control.

By destroying the resource that would facilitate their own (delusional, self-perceived) "demise" they can say that the cost of getting into the ebiz is high, etc.

I mean, is there really any technological reason to use a word processor to write a book, then print it out doublespaced in a monospaced font and submit two copies to a publisher in this day and age? I mean *really*?

In a fantasy world where the publishing model for books de facto was digital the costs associated with doing so would be so low compared to paper that the publishers would lose some leverage in negotiating their percentage of their 'cut' so the incentive there "long term" is practically nil. Flow control and market shaping save the day...again :)

It's a highly competitive world out there for writers, and once you make it mainstream, you kind of figure out too that it is not to your advantage to change this system. The barriers to entry serve to keep guys like the writers that frequent here out of the way.

It's kind of mechakucha if you ask me. While I am NOT a fan of trade unionism, I do admire the SAG here in the USA for their Actor's Strike a few years back in the USA. Practically every "big name" actor involved at the time pretty much had the same reasoning: they didn't need it, but there are scores of actors out there that would never make it "big" that did. They remembered what it was like "in the trenches" as it were, and realized that it could easily have been them still there.

If there was that kind of thing going on amongst writes in a top-down sort of way, things would be different. Imagine if like 2-5 "big name, big money" authors started their own ePublishing house. A lot of writers would be able to do what they love to do and make a decent living out of it, a LOT more diverse books would be seen and overall, it would be better.

There is enough capital floating around that a "writer's publisher" could get even get a ubiquitous reader device out there. To do that would require a "good enough" device at the iPod price point, with the "value-add" of either shipping with these Big Name Author's books in place or a scheme to download the eBook if you have the pBook. The secret to the iPod's sucess isn't just clever marketing...its that it is cheap and adds value to the music library you already own.

What's a "good enough" device, you may ask. Well, let's look to the market leaders for some ideas...Nintendo and Apple.

It needs to be priced below the competitors, small, and easy to use. It would have *less features* than competing products but a lower price.

So, I'd say a device priced in the iPod Nano range ($200) with an eInk screen...but to get it in that range, make it *slightly smaller* than the current models...say 3/4ths the size in both dimensions.

You want the minimal amount of of buttons, but enough to use an onscreen keyboard for "quick notes" but not a full chicklet keyboard.

OTA anywhere buying...maybe. I don't know that too many people with iPods and iPhones that can do this actually bother. iTunes is well understood, tho the Whispernet is attractive, its not a real killer app at $400 price of entry.

Then, innovate in the service too by allowing (gasp) buyers of ebooks to print one copy of it should they choose to do so.

Further innovation would be in the revenue sharing model: do what CD-Baby does.

Do these things, and I'm pretty sure eBooks will take off...but its going to take some support from folks already in the pBook industry and some innovative *thinking* to go with it.

But you know, some people forget where they come from, and who it is they are supposed to be serving and selling to, so we have this mess instead.

Too bad.

nekokami
12-15-2007, 10:09 AM
Someone wanting to start a "writer's publisher" would need to get some of the best editors to come on board. I know quite a few writers who are very happy with their working relationships with their editors and would stay with them wherever they went... or stay with them at the traditional publishers, if that's where they stayed.

vivaldirules
12-15-2007, 11:19 AM
Considering the results of this poll, maybe we would be more honest with ourselves if the new Mobile Read tagline were something like: Mobile Read - Come here to learn how to read your pirated ebooks on the fly!

mrkai
12-15-2007, 11:27 AM
Throw that into the mix as well then.

Really, my thing here is about looking at how these emerging markets take off and exploiting them as opposed to shying away from them and becoming marginalized.

Look at digital music.

That APPLE is the leader in this space at at least 3 glances seems completely nuts, let alone first glance. But if you look at the history of the market, you see the failings of the music and CE industry before apple.

Its funny. A tech company actually came up with a product that actually, for awhile, had the 'digerati' buying CDs again instead of pulling music off napster and instead of the music industry looking at this data and scooping them up, they utterly crushed them...

and I'm not talking about Napster and the file-sharing.

Michael Richardson of mp3.com fame saw a problem. People were not buying cds...they were illegally downloading music.

He also noticed that people were buying cds and ripping them to play on an emerging class of portable players, like the nomad and the rio and such.

Michael asked the *right question* for the market and the music companies (at the time) which was this:

"How do you get people to buy Cds instead of downloading them?"

He came up with an idea that was brilliant...but ultimately flawed...and was a two-pronged attack. People liked to rip cds, but in those days, re-encoding them into mp3 was a bit pokey.

He devised a service that basically killed two birds with one stone. One was a service where in you signed up, inserted a cd that you owned into your computer which ws scanned, and were given instant access to the music on it in mp3 format. No need to rip, it was already done for you, saving precious time and cycles. Just download them.

The other tho, attacked the music sales problem. mp3.com partnered with resellers that if you bought the cd from them, they would transmit this info to mp3.com. You could then download the music right then and start listening before your cd turned up in the mail a few days later.

The record industry had a FIT. The model was good. It served customers that either had physical product in hand, or that were confirmed to have purchased, and as such, owned the cd in question.

No one could argue this. What they COULD argue tho, was that mp3.com did not have redistribution rights. It was "fair use" for the owner of the CD to rip it themselves but a copyright violation for a 3rd party to distro ripped music. This won them the case but opened up a can of worms that they did not foresee or expect...

Instead of taking this proven winning strategy for SALES (mp3.com was making a nice bit of change off this deal for the service and a small piece off the B&M sales tie-in) of CDs while satisifying the needs of the emerging DAP market and controlling it...what did they do?

They became obsessed with stamping out "file sharing"...killed, then bought Napster ("the value was in the Napster 'brand'"...as opposed to what Napster provided. Morons. Worms fill the gap...in spades.) and produced products that no one wanted in the form of Musicnet and Napster 2.0.

So some "fruit company" in California that wasn't at all interested in preserving their old business model in music (Sony by this time had absorbed much of Sony Pictures nee Columbia execs into its CE ranks...suckers so became hamstringed by the content people's interests crippling CE products that people actually wanted to buy...a problem that plagues them to this day) but embracing a new one, had the foresight to buy a piece of MP3 player software from a small-to-midsized software company and made it as the jukebox for their new DAP thing called an "iPod".

And what THAT thing did was allow you to easily convert your CDs and get them into the player. They THEN had the nerve and good sense to play up this value-added feature ('Rip. Mix. Burn.) and the wisdom to get *musicians*...you know, the people customers and fans identify with, to back it up.

The publishing biz could really, REALLY benefit by looking at how this all went down and why it worked.

It didn't start with DRM...it started with market acceptance and penetration of a "walkman alternative" so that there would be a market for the damned content :)

Sorry about the tangent.

But yeah, ok, authors and top-tier editors. :D

jasonkchapman
12-15-2007, 11:51 AM
Considering the results of this poll, maybe we would be more honest with ourselves if the new Mobile Read tagline were something like: Mobile Read - Come here to learn how to read your pirated ebooks on the fly!

I'm not sure how serious you were about this comment. It may just be cynicism caused by frustration. I can certainly relate to that. However, I do think it needs addressing, if for no other reason than that Google users see things out of context.

I really don't think that characterizes the community or its participants very accurately. Sure, there are some rather loud participants in some of the threads who at least appear to lean toward that characterization (though not necessarily, once context is taken into account), but I'm confident that the overwhelming majority do not. And while many of them remain silent because most DRM- and copyright-related threads become exceedingly distasteful in rather short order, they take the time and effort to at least pose a contrary view. That effort can be gut-wrenching, at times, and those who make the effort should be applauded, even if we don't agree with every aspect of their views.

I'm confident that the MobileRead site and its community overwhelming do not advocate pirating e-books or violating the rights of writers or those to whom they've assigned rights. There is no "us" and "them" in this issue, no matter how many misguided posters want to convince people of the contrary. Not all writers agree on these issues, nor do all publishers, nor do all e-book users. In fact, there are vast differences of opinion just within the ranks of editors that work for the large publishing houses.

Polls here only measure a self-selecting pool of participants. Many will ignore the entire thread simply because they know how it will go--how it's been going for at least a decade, at least. One can't be too quick to color an entire community over something like that, just as one can't be too quick to judge an entire person over an off-hand comment.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 11:55 AM
Considering the results of this poll, maybe we would be more honest with ourselves if the new Mobile Read tagline were something like: Mobile Read - Come here to learn how to read your pirated ebooks on the fly!

There certainly doesn't seem to be any content in this regard here that I have seen.

vivaldirules
12-15-2007, 12:06 PM
I'm quite sure the intent of the forum is to stay legal and ethical. I'm only pointing out that the poll results reveal that two-thirds of those who took it are apparently comfortable with the idea of downloading pirated ebooks. That would suggest that some (many?) who come here do so at least in part to learn how to use Sony Readers, Amazon Kindles, their mobile phones, etc. to convert and read their pirated ebooks on these devices. From the comments in this and other threads, I think the word above is many and not some.

DMcCunney
12-15-2007, 12:55 PM
Your poll does not include "None of the above".

I love the Urth of the New Sun series, and have it in hardcover, autographed by Wolfe. If I didn't have it, I'd happily buy the paper editions. I have more stuff in electronic format now than I have time to read, so I don't get upset if a particular work isn't available electronically.

Moral questions aside, I don't care for Darknet editions. They would require more work than I wish to perform to put into a format I would want to read electronically.
______
Dennis

mrkai
12-15-2007, 03:03 PM
I'm only pointing out that the poll results reveal that two-thirds of those who took it are apparently comfortable with the idea of downloading pirated ebooks.

I was referring to nekokami's poll i believe.

The poll attached to this thread however was very cynical and was flawed and the creator admitted it as such.

There are only "negative answers" amongst the questions asked. Look at the questions again. The participants are asked to "pick an evil"...there are no "good" options to weigh in on.

Any conclusions you draw from such a poll would be confirmation bias. Note that my response was "No Go" as I stated in an earlier response.

jasonkchapman
12-15-2007, 03:28 PM
There are only "negative answers" amongst the questions asked. Look at the questions again. The participants are asked to "pick an evil"...there are no "good" options to weigh in on.

While option 1 may not be a "good" option, I don't think I'd characterize it as an evil.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 03:37 PM
I'm only pointing out that the poll results reveal that two-thirds of those who took it are apparently comfortable with the idea of downloading pirated ebooks.

The majority of the respondents stated that their choice would be for the author to be remunerated by a direct purchase on their part, or an indirect royalty via a book borrowed from the library.

You see? You are browbeating *customers* here...you do realize this, right?

-K

jasonkchapman
12-15-2007, 03:57 PM
You see? You are browbeating *customers* here...you do realize this, right?

I think your bias is showing. How is vivaldirules "browbeating" anyone? It was a single, simple statement, and a factual one, at that. Two of the choices, answered by 29 respondents, as of this writing, selected an answer that included downloading e-books from the darknet. That pretty much translates to "comfortable with the idea of downloading pirated ebooks".

While I don't agree with the conclusion being drawn, I certainly wouldn't characterize pointing it out as "browbeating".

astra
12-15-2007, 04:07 PM
I was referring to nekokami's poll i believe.

The poll attached to this thread however was very cynical and was flawed and the creator admitted it as such.

There are only "negative answers" amongst the questions asked. Look at the questions again. The participants are asked to "pick an evil"...there are no "good" options to weigh in on.

Any conclusions you draw from such a poll would be confirmation bias. Note that my response was "No Go" as I stated in an earlier response.

What type of positive answer would you suggest?

There is only one answer that is not included - read printed book. I said from the beginning, I do not want to read printed book. As someone said, I am not to go to 56K modem from 20M broadband :)

If I don't want to read a printed book but would like to stay 100% legal and ethical, I have to give up. Forget about the book and wait until someone publish a legal ebook. If you read poll options carefully, you will have notice that it is the very first option of the poll. How more positive can it be?
You lost me.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 04:30 PM
I think your bias is showing. How is vivaldirules "browbeating" anyone? It was a single, simple statement, and a factual one, at that. Two of the choices, answered by 29 respondents, as of this writing, selected an answer that included downloading e-books from the darknet. That pretty much translates to "comfortable with the idea of downloading pirated ebooks".

While I don't agree with the conclusion being drawn, I certainly wouldn't characterize pointing it out as "browbeating".
Whatever.

All of the moralizing is beyond tiring at this point.

"I want an option that gets the author paid and the product i want. I am not willing to rip off the author, so I will buy a copy of the book" only equates to, as he put it "Mobile Read - Come here to learn how to read your pirated ebooks on the fly!" and "That would suggest that some (many?) who come here do so at least in part to learn how to use Sony Readers, Amazon Kindles, their mobile phones, etc. to convert and read their pirated ebooks on these devices."

To me, me being Kai, the use of the words "pirate/pirated" has a sh*tty connotation that these PARTICULAR PEOPLE specifically, and the general membership here don't deserve, because they aren't stealing from the authors or the publishers.

Pirates buy NOTHING. They pay for NOTHING. They do not give a damn if anyone gets paid or not. It's what they do; it's how they roll.

And before ANYONE rolls a conclusion from the above, my Sony reader has PD books and political documents on it (like the constitution), fanfiction and exactly ONE paid for book (sigh...connect) which is "I Am America (And So Can You)" and NOTHING ELSE commercial.

Like someone else said...it must be wonderful to have such a fully developed unwaivering sense of right and wrong. I envy those that know everything about everything and how all cases are clear.

And ANOTHER thing. I think, for the benefit of people that do NOT live in the US or UK or wherever, the whole "legality" vein is disrespectful to people that don't live in either of these two places. As people have pointed out time and time again, laws are different in different countries and many of these discussions seem to take US and UK law as some sort of moral high ground...and that's not right either.

Anyone that would make a choice, a personal choice on a personal level to do what it takes to put money in the pocket of the author of a book should not be treated in the cavalier way many folks like vivaldirules does.

Given the options before them, they don't HAVE to do this. They choose to. they shouldn't browbeaten (yeah i said it again) for making a moral choice that puts money in the pockets of authors they support.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 04:35 PM
What type of positive answer would you suggest?


All these damned polls and threads :) I was thinking about Steve's poll which I had just looked at when replying to yours.

I did the same thing before; i had clicked the link in nekokami's sig and was talking about THAT one on THIS thread.

astra
12-15-2007, 05:51 PM
All these damned polls and threads :) I was thinking about Steve's poll which I had just looked at when replying to yours.

I did the same thing before; i had clicked the link in nekokami's sig and was talking about THAT one on THIS thread.

OK :)

jasonkchapman
12-15-2007, 06:34 PM
All of the moralizing is beyond tiring at this point.

I'm sorry it distresses you, but I don't think it can be helped. I think it would be difficult to discuss a question that is, at its heart, a moral and ethical question without raising points of morality or ethics. The poll, as posed, is an ethical dilemma, is it not?

If we're not discussing whether or not someone should download pirated e-books and we're not discussing whether or not someone is allowed to download pirated e-books, then I've clearly missed the point of the whole thread.

To me, me being Kai, the use of the words "pirate/pirated" has a sh*tty connotation that these PARTICULAR PEOPLE specifically, and the general membership here don't deserve, because they aren't stealing from the authors or the publishers.

I can see your point, but I'm not sure what else to call the darknet e-books. Something like "copyright-infringing e-books" or "e-books made without the consent of the rights holder" would be ungainly. "Illegal e-books" would be even more loaded and quite possibly inaccurate. Would "unauthorized e-books" work? Pirated at least has the benefit of being commonly understood, since it's used for everything from knock-off NFL jerseys to bogus Louis Vuitton purses to camcordered-in-the-theater movies, but I suppose unauthorized would work as well, even though it's somewhat obfuscating.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 07:30 PM
I can see your point, but I'm not sure what else to call the darknet e-books. Something like "copyright-infringing e-books" or "e-books made without the consent of the rights holder" would be ungainly. "Illegal e-books" would be even more loaded and quite possibly inaccurate. Would "unauthorized e-books" work? Pirated at least has the benefit of being commonly understood, since it's used for everything from knock-off NFL jerseys to bogus Louis Vuitton purses to camcordered-in-the-theater movies, but I suppose unauthorized would work as well, even though it's somewhat obfuscating.

the fact that the overwhelming majority, given a choice of being able to get what they wanted and the author/publisher not getting a single penny, chose to pay full price for a pBook they didnt even want, as for want of a better word, "trubute" for getting what they did want.

No one should be bashed for this.

But as I just told Steve in another thread, talking about people's "feelings" is a distraction and a straw man for what is really the bottom line issue: putting real, Yankee money in author's pockets. Let's talk about that...not ideal markets, ideal internets or ideal relative "morals".

I approach these topics from the point of view that people want eBooks and they want authors to be paid for their work.

The poll in question *clearly shows this*...and this is not the behavior of "pirates" by any reasonable definition given the current market reality and the digital landscape.

When people are in the midst of discussion about being buyers and customers that "ahh you're making excuses for your 'thievery'" jazz does NOTHING...NOTHING to forward the discussion and goal of getting authors paid in this reality...2007 and the connected high speed Internet where "if it's bits, it's yours!" is the everyday reality.

This isn't Plato...its not Sunday School...its not the Matrix. Its the really-for-real world here and now where things are what and where they are.

Torpedoing a discussion where "Ok, assume money is changing hands here" with the "PIRATE!!!" cry is like mobileread's own special version of Godwin's Law.

I think the Staff here should come up with a like symbol color code or something that we can all tack to our names that gives at a glance what folks "stance" is on "the digital question" and leave it at that. No one has to talk about it...we can just look and go "ah. ok."

Let's talk about getting authors paid in a world where consumers don't really have to...compelling solutions that are as Steve Jobs put it "better than free" for folks that want to keep it honest and still have eBooks from the authors they love.

Is that so...wrong to ask!?

Nate the great
12-15-2007, 07:51 PM
Torpedoing a discussion where "Ok, assume money is changing hands here" with the "PIRATE!!!" cry is like mobileread's own special version of Godwin's Law.


Henceforth, this will be known as mrkai's law. :)

jasonkchapman
12-15-2007, 08:01 PM
Henceforth, this will be known as mrkai's law. :)

Wait. I thought we'd already established a couple of months ago that mentioning backlighting or DRM were the MobileRead equivalents of Godwin's law. I'm so confused.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 08:03 PM
I wasn't active in discussions back then even tho I'd registered, because believe me, i would have whipped out the shame stick long ago :)

Nate the great
12-15-2007, 08:09 PM
Wait. I thought we'd already established a couple of months ago that mentioning backlighting or DRM were the MobileRead equivalents of Godwin's law. I'm so confused.

Really? I must have missed it.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 08:11 PM
Wait. I thought we'd already established a couple of months ago that mentioning backlighting or DRM were the MobileRead equivalents of Godwin's law. I'm so confused.

While I think the above subjects are contentious, surely the epithet of the "PIRATES!!" in a discussion about buying things is much more like calling someone a Nazi I think, because you are dealing with people who at least state they are trying to compensate the parties due. Its just...wack :)

Talking about DRM in the context of a is DRM destroying the fabric of the universe thread is kind of, "ok you know what you are getting into".

Bringing it up when talking about pie recipes...suspect ;)

I wasn't aware that amongst this crowd there was a backlighting row at all. Seems like the Engadget crowd's thing.

Booklight/Backlight. I think the point is the light, isn't it? *shrug*

tompe
12-15-2007, 08:13 PM
And ANOTHER thing. I think, for the benefit of people that do NOT live in the US or UK or wherever, the whole "legality" vein is disrespectful to people that don't live in either of these two places. As people have pointed out time and time again, laws are different in different countries and many of these discussions seem to take US and UK law as some sort of moral high ground...and that's not right either.


I have to admit that this have irritated me. It seems sometimes that people makes moral statements based on local laws and then think that people should automatically agree with their moral opinion. I think that it would be good if all moral discussions would be disconnected from what the law in a certain countries says. The discussion should be about what we want the moral and laws to be and for that it is wrong to just say that something is wrong just because it is illegal.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 08:13 PM
Henceforth, this will be known as mrkai's law. :)

I don't know what to say at all...

jasonkchapman
12-15-2007, 08:29 PM
putting real, Yankee money in author's pockets. Let's talk about that...not ideal markets, ideal internets or ideal relative "morals".

Okay. Let's do that. Start a thread and we'll explore it. If you've mentioned market alternatives in this thread before, though, my apologies. I must have missed it. It's hard to keep up sometimes. I generally focus on the topic of the thread or on whatever branch it's taken, but sometimes I miss the branches.

Yes, the "feelings" thing can be annoying. Because I'm a writer, I've been tagged as "evil," "greedy," and part of some kind of world-straddling secret media cabal that somehow neglected to send me a membership card. I've even had one of the PG folks ticked off at me for daring to reject the notion that any writer that wanted to make money from his writing was a hack. I still don't understand that one.

So, yes. Let's do. I would definitely start it in a new thread, however. This one's topic doesn't appear to match what you're wanting to discuss.

jasonkchapman
12-15-2007, 08:31 PM
I wasn't aware that amongst this crowd there was a backlighting row at all. Seems like the Engadget crowd's thing.

Pray you never run afoul of the Backlight Cabal.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 09:33 PM
Yes, the "feelings" thing can be annoying. Because I'm a writer, I've been tagged as "evil," "greedy," and part of some kind of world-straddling secret media cabal that somehow neglected to send me a membership card. I've even had one of the PG folks ticked off at me for daring to reject the notion that any writer that wanted to make money from his writing was a hack. I still don't understand that one.


...I've read here, ever, and anywhere, in QUITE awhile.
:rofl:

Sorry man. That's insane. A "hack" because you want...to be...paid.

I can see how that would have one ready to come out swingin' heheh.


So, yes. Let's do. I would definitely start it in a new thread, however. This one's topic doesn't appear to match what you're wanting to discuss.


I'm workin' on a Gran Marnier right now so I may not be fit for such a discussion...but were definitely gonna have one and set the tone.

-K

vivaldirules
12-16-2007, 01:19 PM
Frankly, I think we should end this discussion here and now so we can focus on the real problems at hand: My eink eReader isn't backlit and I'm super pissed off that a modern device could possibly be sold without one. And it doesn't have nearly enough DRM protections on it to suit me. Shouldn't we perhaps try to encourage the folks at Project Gutenberg to replace thier boring old DRM-free format files with some new proprietary DRM-laden format? :)

Alisa
12-16-2007, 02:09 PM
*tries to distract the pitchfork-waving mobs with yummy pie*

Apple Crumble Pie

INGREDIENTS

* 1 (9 inch) deep dish pie crust
* 5 cups apples - peeled, cored and thinly sliced
* 1/2 cup white sugar
* 3/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon
* 1/3 cup white sugar
* 3/4 cup all-purpose flour
* 6 tablespoons butter

DIRECTIONS

1. Preheat oven to 400 degrees F (200 degrees C.) Arrange apple slices in unbaked pie shell. Mix 1/2 cup sugar and cinnamon; sprinkle over apples.
2. Mix 1/3 cup sugar with flour; cut in butter until crumbly. Spoon mixture over apples.
3. Bake in preheated oven for 35 to 40 minutes, or until apples are soft and top is lightly browned.

jasonkchapman
12-16-2007, 02:31 PM
Changed "Reader" to "eReader" (it's more fun that way!)

Heh, heh. You said "eReader". Heh, heh. Hey, Jon! Vivaldirules is being bad.

astra
12-16-2007, 02:54 PM
*tries to distract the pitchfork-waving mobs with yummy pie*

Apple Crumble Pie

INGREDIENTS

* 1 (9 inch)


Good one.
Hopefull we will have plenty of them in a few years :2thumbsup

nekokami
12-16-2007, 03:42 PM
Yum! Pie!

What was the question again?

Apple! My favorite! :D

Jadon
12-16-2007, 08:49 PM
*tries to distract the pitchfork-waving mobs with yummy pie* Apple Crumble Pie

I'm allergic to apples. Really. Annoying, since I liked apples. But not half so annoying as being allergic to yellow dye. You wouldn't believe the number of foods that have "FD&C Yellow #5" in them. Everything from pickles to chocolate cake mix.

nekokami
12-17-2007, 10:57 AM
Wow, that's annoying.

I think the recipe would work for pears, though. Can you eat those?

Penforhire
12-17-2007, 11:46 AM
Hmm, I see the automatic assumption that an unauthorized e-book is pirated. That is, to me, an error. That is your opinion not fact. I argue the morality of owning the p-book and getting the e-book however you want. I suppose the issue will make to court some day but do you REALLY expect a different answer than for MP3's? Why? And to distinguish between digitizing your own p-book versus downloading it elsewhere is Luddite thinking (again, to me).

That means the poll does NOT indicate such a high percentage advocating piracy, just a high percentage advocating something you disagree with.

jasonkchapman
12-17-2007, 01:44 PM
Alisa has pie-rated the entire thread.

vivaldirules
12-17-2007, 01:48 PM
Alisa has pie-rated the entire thread.

:rofl:

LittleMi
12-20-2007, 11:42 AM
This question of not downloading because it means you are not paying is rather more complicated then this poll suggests. I buy all my hardcopy books from charity and second hand shops and borrow others from the library, its been over a year since I bought a book from a proper bookshop, so am not giving any money to the author or publisher. How is this differant from downloading from darknet? Are you suggesting that it is unethical for me to buy second hand books or borrow them from friends?

nekokami
12-20-2007, 12:00 PM
I guess the idea is that you're giving money to the previous purchaser of the book, who gave money to the publisher (somewhere back in history), so you're sort of splitting the payment to the author. And paper books do limit the spread of copies.

I'd like to see Amazon make a bigger push to get authors to have their own Amazon shops so they can get paid for used copies of their books, personally. I set up a shop for Steven Brust, but I think it would be cool if Amazon would automatically include that shop link on all his books.

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-20-2007, 12:55 PM
This question of not downloading because it means you are not paying is rather more complicated then this poll suggests. I buy all my hardcopy books from charity and second hand shops and borrow others from the library, its been over a year since I bought a book from a proper bookshop, so am not giving any money to the author or publisher. How is this differant from downloading from darknet? Are you suggesting that it is unethical for me to buy second hand books or borrow them from friends?

(I stopped in, because I heard there was pie.)

Actually, borrowing from the library does pay the author/publisher, albeit at a different rate than bookstore-bought books.

The question of used books, especially compared to e-books, has been a tricky one around here for quite some time. A used book is by definition resold (or donated) by someone who paid for the book originally. Further, it is exactly one book, and it is re-sold as exactly one book... not thousands of copies of the one book.

This is where the comparison between used print books and the darknet falls short: E-books on the darknet are not one book, so the original purchase of one book (assuming it wasn't stolen) results in potentially multiple copies. All offered on the darknet for free. So, instead of one possible print book floating around and not getting paid for, you have potentially thousands of copies of the book, not getting paid for. This means the author/publisher is not theoretically missing out on one sale, they are theoretically missing out on thousands.

But, as others here have ably pointed out, "theoretical" covers a lot of ground here, and renders the entire subject... subjective.

So, if you want to be as ethical as possible, short of buying a book, get it from the library, and the author/publisher will get something for their trouble. Everything else does not compensate them at all, and (theoretically) could be costing them money, which should be taken into consideration if you're concerned about that kind of thing.

Theoretically.

JSWolf
12-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Frankly, I think we should end this discussion here and now so we can focus on the real problems at hand: My eink eReader isn't backlit and I'm super pissed off that a modern device could possibly be sold without one. And it doesn't have nearly enough DRM protections on it to suit me. Shouldn't we perhaps try to encourage the folks at Project Gutenberg to replace their boring old DRM-free format files with some new proprietary DRM-laden format? :)
You don't own an eink eReader. Nobody makes an eink device that reads eReader format books with DRM. So the issue if it's backlit or not is irrelevant as such a device exists only in some people's minds.

JSWolf
12-20-2007, 01:59 PM
*tries to distract the pitchfork-waving mobs with yummy pie*

Can we replace this recipe with a blueberry pie? I really don't find apple pie yummy as I really dislike apples. All I can say is as a distraction, apple pie makes me want to go out and download illegal ebooks.

JSWolf
12-20-2007, 02:00 PM
Heh, heh. You said "eReader". Heh, heh. Hey, Jon! Vivaldirules is being bad.
I've just told him he doesn't own the device he thinks he owns cause nobody makes it. So backlit is not an issue.

JSWolf
12-20-2007, 02:01 PM
What we need is a pie that we ALL can eat/like. How about a key-lime pie?

DaleDe
12-20-2007, 04:50 PM
I've just told him he doesn't own the device he thinks he owns cause nobody makes it. So backlit is not an issue.

Yea, all the generic names for things keep getting eatin' up. You can't even use eBook Library anymore as Sony just grabbed it. Pretty soon we won't even be able to talk about our favorite subject.

Dale

nekokami
12-20-2007, 05:24 PM
Eh, I'm indifferent to key lime or blueberry. How about peach? :)

(Do we need a "pie" smiley now?)

TallMomof2
12-20-2007, 08:23 PM
Make mine low carb pie!

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-20-2007, 08:24 PM
Boston creme for me.

vivaldirules
12-20-2007, 09:09 PM
You don't own an eink eReader. Nobody makes an eink device that reads eReader format books with DRM. So the issue if it's backlit or not is irrelevant as such a device exists only in some people's minds.

No, no, no, you don't understand, Jon. You see, the fonts are too small for me to read anything well at night when I turn all the lights off because my eink eReader isn't backlit and, besides, it clearly doesn't have enough DRM protections against evil ebook pirateers. This all has me in a tizzy. So.....can I have a piece of pie, please? I'd like mine with ice cream.:)

Alisa
12-21-2007, 03:02 AM
Then obviously what you really need is my lemon cheesecake with gingersnap crust. To preserve the peace I'm sure it would be quite lovely topped with blueberries to appease Jon.

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-21-2007, 09:59 AM
Can we add "have some pie" to the poll choices?

Say... did anyone bring the milk?

jasonkchapman
12-21-2007, 10:26 AM
Is it too early to start a discussion about the evils of Dessert Recipe Management?

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-21-2007, 11:21 AM
It may be too early at that... this thread is only half-baked now.

(Bada-bum-crash!)

nekokami
12-21-2007, 05:35 PM
That lemon cheesecake with gingersnap crust sounds yummy (sans blueberries).

I had some more prosaic cheesecake last night with ginger preserves on top and it was pretty good, too. :)

Alan
01-03-2008, 03:38 AM
Back to the topic again:

I would go with option 2. Although I never used IRC (and probably never will) and so will never indulge in the depths of the darknet anyway, option 2 sounds to be a good way. You paid the author and the publisher and now make use of their product in your own way. I can see nothing wrong with that.

But I have a far more obvious question: Why are there still so many book titles not available as an ebook? I have the problem, too. I would love to read a three-books series published in 2006/2007 by Tyndale. But the third book is still not available as an ebook. I wrote to Tyndale asking about that but never got an answer.

A publisher can produce an ebook in minutes. I mean, what does it take anyway? The publisher has the text of the book. So he only has to do a little formatting. DRM is done by software or by the bookshop that sells the book over the internet. Compared with an actual paper book there are virtually no costs involved. So why are there still so many books on the market that are not being sold as ebooks? I don't get it. Does anyone?

Alan

astra
01-03-2008, 04:28 AM
But I have a far more obvious question: Why are there still so many book titles not available as an ebook? I have the problem, too. I would love to read a three-books series published in 2006/2007 by Tyndale. But the third book is still not available as an ebook. I wrote to Tyndale asking about that but never got an answer.
Alan

I believe you are luckier than me. Since you have the first 2 books out of three, it means that eventually you will get the last one.
Lets say if they consider Hardback editions as a first edition of a book and they publish ebooks at the same time as paperback editions, then the delay is understandable. Although I see no reason why not publish ebook at the same time as hardback edition with a higher price than it is going to be when paperback is published. For example $10 at the same time as hardback edition and $5 one year later when paperback edition is out.

nekokami
01-03-2008, 05:40 PM
A publisher can produce an ebook in minutes. I mean, what does it take anyway? The publisher has the text of the book. So he only has to do a little formatting.
Surprisingly enough, most publishers don't seem to hang on to the electronic files of the book once the printing plates are made. It seems extremely bizarre, I know, but many publishers would be reduced to the same steps as the rest of us: cut apart a paper book, scan, OCR, and edit.

Unless they want to get a scan from someone who's already done this... e.g. from the darknet. :rolleyes:

DMcCunney
01-03-2008, 05:55 PM
A publisher can produce an ebook in minutes. I mean, what does it take anyway? The publisher has the text of the book. So he only has to do a little formatting. DRM is done by software or by the bookshop that sells the book over the internet. Compared with an actual paper book there are virtually no costs involved. So why are there still so many books on the market that are not being sold as ebooks? I don't get it. Does anyone?

AlanI think you underestimate the work involved in putting out an ebook.

Assume the original manuscript is a Microsoft Word document. Then ask which ebook formats you want to issue the book in. PDF? LRF? AZW? Mobi? HTML? Something else?

Each is going to require modifications to the original manuscript to generate the ebook format, and I can almost guarantee that doing it right won't be the work of a few minutes.

Note that what the publisher sends to the printer isn't the Word document. Someone on the publisher's staff brings the Word document into Quark Express for typesetting and pagination. The printer will get a Quark file, or possibly a PDF to feed to their imagesetter that will generate the plates.
______
Dennis

6charlong
01-04-2008, 11:09 AM
I think you underestimate the work involved in putting out an ebook.

Assume the original manuscript is a Microsoft Word document. Then ask which ebook formats you want to issue the book in. PDF? LRF? AZW? Mobi? HTML? Something else?

Each is going to require modifications to the original manuscript to generate the ebook format, and I can almost guarantee that doing it right won't be the work of a few minutes.

Dennis

Niko, supposing that the publisher doesn't have a digital copy of an edited book, I bet the author does.

I expect that soon enough, publishing houses trying to remain in the book business business will format publications using epub, then insist that eBook reader manufacturers supply them with a translator (from epub to a format readable by their device) if they want to have books published for it. And yes, a two-way Xpress translator (Xpress to epub and epub to Xpress) would be all good.

My point being that the tools to make ePublishing viable already exist or are within reach, and none of the problems are even very difficult or expensive. The barrier to moving book publishing into the 21st Century remains DRM.

AnemicOak
01-04-2008, 11:22 AM
Niko, supposing that the publisher doesn't have a digital copy of an edited book, I bet the author does.

The author probably does, but with no version control in place the copy they have may not always be a copy with all of the final edits done to it.

jasonkchapman
01-04-2008, 11:28 AM
The author probably does, but with no version control in place the copy they have may not always be a copy with all of the final edits done to it.

In fact, it's quite likely not. Proofs are still generally provided in paper.