View Full Version : Hacks Amazon Kindle Hack: Read DRM-protected Mobipocket content


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Alexander Turcic
12-12-2007, 05:04 PM
Hasn't it bothered you to be stuck with Amazon when making e-book purchases for your Kindle reader? Well, our famed reverse-engineer friend igorsk (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/member.php?u=6287) wrote his own application ("Mobipocket PID calculator for Amazon Kindle") to generate a valid Mobipocket PID from your Kindle's serial number. You use this PID to make your Mobipocket purchases; afterwards, you use another tiny application ("The Kindleizer") to convert the purchased Mobipocket e-books into a format that the Kindle would accept.

No question, this development will delight all Kindle customers but perhaps provide no small amount of frustration to the good folks over at Amazon.

You can download the tools (written in Python) over here: link removed on Amazon's request

TadW
12-12-2007, 05:14 PM
Igor does this mean you've abandoned your Sony Reader projects? :p

And congrats on your Kindle efforts... this is highly appreciated! :thanks: :jump:

tsgreer
12-12-2007, 05:35 PM
Is there anything that this guy can't do? Excellent news!! :thumbsup:

CTH
12-12-2007, 05:47 PM
The question is if Amazon will do a Apple and update the kindle with some kind of protection against this?

tsgreer
12-12-2007, 06:01 PM
The question is if Amazon will do a Apple and update the kindle with some kind of protection against this?

Shhhh...

Maybe they won't find out.:lipsrseal

TadW
12-12-2007, 06:05 PM
Shhhh...

Maybe they won't find out.:lipsrseal

LOL! :rofl:

carld
12-12-2007, 06:06 PM
I don't have a Kindle yet, but I downloaded it anyway, just in case he gets a cease and desist from Amazon.

azog
12-12-2007, 06:08 PM
Hmph, if the PID is generated from the serial number, I don't see a way for them to "fix" this, without also breaking access to our "legit" Kindle purchases. It's interesting. I wonder if he can do the reverse, de-Kindle an AZW file I've purchased from Amazon. That would allow me to read all my content on my Gen3!

TadW
12-12-2007, 06:13 PM
Wouldn't this be an excellent case for "Fair Use"? No DRM is cracked, no protection is broken, no copyrights violated.

A "deKindleizer" would be a great idea! All those cheap Kindle books from Amazon, usable on other readers like the iLiad or the Cybook... *yum*

NatCh
12-12-2007, 06:15 PM
You'd still have to get the PID for those other devices into the files, though, wouldn't you?

azog
12-12-2007, 06:32 PM
You'd still have to get the PID for those other devices into the files, though, wouldn't you?

Hadn't considered that. In that case, I guess it's probably not such a good idea. Most mobi sites allow you to have more than one device, but Amazon only allows Kindle content to be read on the Kindle (or multiple Kindles, from what I can discern).

TadW
12-12-2007, 06:36 PM
Agreed. And this (getting the PID into AZW files) could be considered breaking of the DRM, which is probably really not a good idea.

aagstn
12-12-2007, 06:56 PM
This device should do this out of the box. There is no reason why my books purchased in Amazon's Mobipocket DRM should not work with Amazon's ebook reader.

I'm sick of DRM. I only wish there was an easy way to strip the DRM from these so I can read the stuff I buy on the device I choose. Makes you want to go back to paper books.

xianfox
12-12-2007, 06:58 PM
There is still a chance for this to be broken. Since Amazon owns Mobipocket, if they can identify the PIDs used by Kindles, they could disallow those at the authenticating server; thus no new books could be encrypted with those PIDs.

Just a thought. Make sure you keep backup copies of those Mobipocket books.

*back to reading my iLiad*

TadW
12-12-2007, 07:12 PM
Thanks to igorsk who released the code we know that a crc32 routine is involved in calculating the PIDs for Kindle devices. Since it's relatively easy to reverse crc32 (http://www.codebreakers-journal.com/downloads/cbj/2004/CBJ_1_1_2004_Anarchriz_CRC_and_how_to_Reverse_it.p df), I assume xianfox is right - Amazon could theoratically determine if the PID is related to a specific Kindle serial.

CommanderROR
12-12-2007, 07:28 PM
Great news...and quick too! I don't see any legal issues either so this is a perfect release... ;)

Barcey
12-12-2007, 07:30 PM
Well they can't claim that it was an impossible technical hurdle to allow their customer's the choice of purchasing from other online book stores. Great work.:thumbsup::2thumbsup

mrkai
12-12-2007, 07:44 PM
...but this is a violation of your Kindle's TOS/Usage Terms. Might want to read them :)

Further, it is perfectly (ahem) legit for Amazon to invalidate everything on the device if used this way, should they choose to do so.

The More You Know™...It's One to Grow On!™

-K

Nate the great
12-12-2007, 07:46 PM
...but this is a violation of your Kindle's TOS/Usage Terms. Might want to read them :)

Further, it is perfectly (ahem) legit for Amazon to invalidate everything on the device if used this way, should they choose to do so.

The More You Know...It's One to Grow On!

-K

Yes, it is. But since I never agreed to the TOS, it doesn't matter.

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-12-2007, 07:51 PM
Hadn't considered that. In that case, I guess it's probably not such a good idea. Most mobi sites allow you to have more than one device, but Amazon only allows Kindle content to be read on the Kindle (or multiple Kindles, from what I can discern).

Kindles can also read Mobi files directly, as well as Word DOC and PDF, according to their website (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FI73MA/ref=amb_link_6003602_2/102-5923784-7276150?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0X8HTXTV3B9EA0V537DC&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=337021901&pf_rd_i=507846).

mrkai
12-12-2007, 07:55 PM
Yes, it is. But since I never agreed to the TOS, it doesn't matter.

...is that your explict agreement isn't really necessary is it? Since Amazon can/does/will catalog what is on your (chuckle) gear when its connected to their network (along with what and when you've read, what you've annotated, etc) there really isn't much you can do about it...outside of not using Whispernet.

Such is the World when the assumption is that your customer is a thief,ne?

-K

mrkai
12-12-2007, 07:57 PM
Kindles can also read Mobi files directly, as well as Word DOC and PDF, according to their website (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FI73MA/ref=amb_link_6003602_2/102-5923784-7276150?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0X8HTXTV3B9EA0V537DC&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=337021901&pf_rd_i=507846).

...that DRM's them. Igor's brilliance aims to correct this...oversight. Of course, this is a violation of your Kindle/Amazon TOS and puts you at risk of having Amazon k-line your Kindle "purchases" :)

Nate the great
12-12-2007, 08:04 PM
...is that your explict agreement isn't really necessary is it? Since Amazon can/does/will catalog what is on your (chuckle) gear when its connected to their network (along with what and when you've read, what you've annotated, etc) there really isn't much you can do about it...outside of not using Whispernet.

Such is the World when the assumption is that your customer is a thief,ne?

-K

They could do all those things anyway. Why worry about it?

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-12-2007, 08:05 PM
...that DRM's them.

Maybe... within the Kindle. So what? You can import those from your computer, where those files are not DRM'd.

azog
12-12-2007, 08:07 PM
Kindles can also read Mobi files directly, as well as Word DOC and PDF, according to their website (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FI73MA/ref=amb_link_6003602_2/102-5923784-7276150?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0X8HTXTV3B9EA0V537DC&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=337021901&pf_rd_i=507846).

Yes, I've actually already installed a number of non-DRM'ed Mobi books (Treasure Island, a couple of Tom Swifts, and something else). But that's the point: non-DRM. Anything I purchas directly from Mobi is non-readable by the Kindle (assuming that purchase == DRM, but that's not always the case, like with Baen, where you still need to buy the books, but they're apparently non-DRM).

wallcraft
12-12-2007, 08:12 PM
...but this is a violation of your Kindle's TOS/Usage Terms.

Further, it is perfectly (ahem) legit for Amazon to invalidate everything on the device if used this way, should they choose to do so. But are the TOS legal, and does Amazon want to go to court to find out? Legal or not, it would be public relations nightmare for Amazon to go after its early adopter customers for this. Far better would be to do what they should have done in the first place - open up the Kindle to DRMed MOBI files. After all, Amazon owns MobiPocket (so they make money either way: MOBI or AZW).

mrkai
12-12-2007, 08:18 PM
But are the TOS legal, and does Amazon want to go to court to find out? Legal or not, it would be public relations nightmare for Amazon to go after its early adopter customers for this. Far better would be to do what they should have done in the first place - open up the Kindle to DRMed MOBI files. After all, Amazon owns MobiPocket (so they make money either way: MOBI or AZW).

...isn't always congruent.

It can be argued (and by some here, pretty much, has been) it is immoral and inethical to buy books from some other bookseller and use on the Kindle, because you are in effect robbing Amazon of potential revenue as the Kindle is designed to only read DRM'd books from the Amazon Kindle Store :)

It could also be posited that, like AutoDesk and the Autocad "stealers" it would in fact be in Amazon's best interest to nip this in the bud to protect their reseller business by making "examples" out of these interlopers by k-lining their Kindle and severing the relationship.

Sticky, sticky, sticky :)

wallcraft
12-12-2007, 09:18 PM
It can be argued (and by some here, pretty much, has been) it is immoral and inethical to buy books from some other bookseller and use on the Kindle, because you are in effect robbing Amazon of potential revenue as the Kindle is designed to only read DRM'd books from the Amazon Kindle Store I suppose this might be true if Amazon gave me a Kindle for free. If Amazon is loosing money at $400 it is news to me. I certainly did not agree to buy a single AZW e-book as part of the deal. The copyright owners are happy to sell me a DRMed MOBI, and explicitly give me permission to read it on the Kindle (based on the Kindle PID I provide). Amazon says that a device that I paid $400 for must not be used to read an e-book which I legally own and legally have permission to read on the Kindle. Laws are strange things, but it is normally understood that, once purchased, stuff can be used for purposes other than those it was designed for. Note that there is no "theft" here. I buy a MOBI book with real money and a Kindle with real money, I don't violate copyright (no fair use exception needed - I have the permission of the copyright holder to do what I am doing). Amazon might make more or less money on the deal if I buy a AZW version vs a MOBI version (hard to say from the outside), the publisher and author gets the same amount either way.

mrkai
12-12-2007, 09:51 PM
I suppose this might be true if Amazon gave me a Kindle for free. If Amazon is loosing money at $400 it is news to me. I certainly did not agree to buy a single AZW e-book as part of the deal. The copyright owners are happy to sell me a DRMed MOBI, and explicitly give me permission to read it on the Kindle (based on the Kindle PID I provide). Amazon says that a device that I paid $400 for must not be used to read an e-book which I legally own and legally have permission to read on the Kindle. Laws are strange things, but it is normally understood that, once purchased, stuff can be used for purposes other than those it was designed for. Note that there is no "theft" here. I buy a MOBI book with real money and a Kindle with real money, I don't violate copyright (no fair use exception needed - I have the permission of the copyright holder to do what I am doing). Amazon might make more or less money on the deal if I buy a AZW version vs a MOBI version (hard to say from the outside), the publisher and author gets the same amount either way.

While everything you said is perfectly rational, it isn't really relevant :)

You see, by making a copy of this book from one format to another, you have violated copyright...as stupid as that is, because the rights holder hasn't given you permission to do this.

Further, you don't get to define the terms of your Amazon Kindle usage...Amazon does.

This is a very real example of the perils of a system that decides that because you might give away what you paid for, what you can do with what you licensed (you didn't buy anything, really according to the terms of your...purchase) you are already on the grey side, strolling dark.

if Amazon sells a copy of the book you already bought from somewhere else, and you make a copy of said book to view on the Kindle...you are a violator. Is the original still around in the original format? Hrm. Now you have "two books" but you only bought one.

See? If Amazon sells the book in question you are supposed to buy it from them. If they do not and it is encrypted, you do NOT have the "right" to use it on the Kindle...even tho you "own" both of these things :)

And according to some of the publishers and authors that frequent here, this is *perfectly sane and fair to them* because you could in theory give one of those copies to someone else somehow instead of having bought a copy for them, and you, because you can copy the kindlized one to the kindle to read, and read the other copy in mobipocket.

Yay Team!

mrkai
12-12-2007, 10:23 PM
They could do all those things anyway. Why worry about it?

...your "rights" as they were, can be superceded and undone by their "rights".

Amazon can decide that this usage of the Kindle is a violation and decide that you no longer get to read these books or any you "bought" from them on your Kindle anymore.

But I guess if people are fine with this sort of thing...rock on :)

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-12-2007, 10:53 PM
Oh, come on.

Amazon is not telling you you can't read non-Amazon documents on their Kindle... that's why they allow you to read other formats.

Also, converting a document you own from one format to another, for your own use, constitutes "fair use."

mrkai, you're just trying to pick a fight.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 01:36 AM
Oh, come on.

Amazon is not telling you you can't read non-Amazon documents on their Kindle... that's why they allow you to read other formats.

Also, converting a document you own from one format to another, for your own use, constitutes "fair use."

mrkai, you're just trying to pick a fight.

Amazon seems to have made it *pretty clear* that they don't wish to allow drm'd purchases from other resellers on the kindle: it will not view them, now will it, Steve? :)

Is it "fair use" if you retain multiple copies of this document that can be read in different places simultaneously by different people, Steve? :)

We'll see :)

Since Amazon via mobipocket controls the licensing of the software and whatnot that allows sellers to drm their books with mobi-fu...

We'll see won't we when all of these mobi booksellers have to inform you that "unfortunately, we cannot accept the PID supplied. Thank you for understanding."

This PID would be in the very distinct and easily identifiable Kindle format, with the nifty * in it :)


An you should read the TOS for the Kindle. "Enhancements" and "Augmentations" are not defined in such a way to exclude slipping commercial drm'd content not licensed or sold by amazon onto the Kindle.

And just like drm reversing for ink cartridges was struck down even tho it was circumvention for interoperability, so do does this fall under that shadow.

I'm not picking a fight. I am making sure that people are crystal clear on the position.

It seems that you like to have it both ways. Its fine to screw amazon if the author/publisher is getting paid, is it? :)

Ok, that last line there could be construed as fight-pickery :)

-K

tklaus
12-13-2007, 02:23 AM
Um, doesn't MobiPocket Reader already tell you what your Kindle's PID is? If I plug my Kindle into my USB port with MobiPocket Reader running, Reader auto-detects the Kindle and adds it to my list of devices. If I then click the 'properties' button for the Kindle, the PID displayed in the dialog matches the PID generated by the kindlepid.py python script.

The kindlefix.py script is very handy though!

zartemis
12-13-2007, 02:30 AM
I'm not picking a fight. I am making sure that people are crystal clear on the position.

Can you quote what part of the Amazon TOS you think this violates? The only part I can think applies is the restriction against reverse engineering the software or hardware of the Kindle. And I don't think it's completely 100% clear whether determining what the Kindle's PID is constitutes reverse engineering, although possible.

I found no restriction listed in the TOS that says you can't put or use random DRM software on the device. Indeed, in the part where it defines its use of the term "digital content" it explicitly restricts it to that sold in the Kindle Store:

The Kindle Store. The Kindle Store enables you to download, display and use on your Device a variety of digitized electronic content, such as books, subscriptions to magazines, newspapers, journals and other periodicals, blogs, RSS feeds, and other digital content, as determined by Amazon from time to time (individually and collectively, "Digital Content").

Thus, none of the TOS referring to the term "digital content" applies to content obtained elsewhere, whether DRM'ed or not. When such terms are expressly defined with quotes, as is done in the TOS, they obtain the narrow definitions in the document instead of any other meaning.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 04:06 AM
Alright. First there is: Use of Digital Content.

You are not allowed to use any Digital Content not authorized by Amazon on the device:

Notice that in the Digital Store/Kindle Store section that Amazon get to pick how this is defined..."from time to time.

You are not allowed to "augment" or "circumvent" any part of the Kindle, the Device or the Software. Note that you are also not allowed to "substitute" any digital rights management functionality of the Device or Software, either...

...and that is exactly what is going on.

Defined any way you please, this is overriding a specific built-in part of the "Service" as well as the "Software".

The Kindle doesn't allow for reading DRM Mobi. Its NOT ALLOWED. Amazon made it clear that this was not allowed by *not* having them work, didn't they? Further they changed the extension and tweaked the internals of mobi files. This was not a bug or an oversight on Amazon's part; it was a conscious act.

The Kindle is allowed to read/display un-DRM'd mobi files. These ain't them :)

The usage of these transformed files is as such, a violation of these Terms in both spirit and letter.

Also, because the DMCA is such a shoddy law, it runs afoul of this too, and here is why.

It has language that forbids not just decryption, but circumvention of a drm system in and of itself. This tools facilitates unauthorized use of unauthorized content.

"Fair use" has nothing to do with it. Many people figured out awhile ago to allow people to actually exercise their fair use rights, in the face of the DMCA they have to violate the law.

That's what makes it so funny in an "uncomfortable laugh" kind of way: you'd be NOT violating the Amazon and Kindle TOS if you actually stripped the drm and made the things straight .mobi, as the Kindle has no restrictions on these.

Of course, doing that, you violate the TOS of whomever you bought it from, and the law. *NOICE* *SHWEET*

Welcome to a new kind of dumb :)

I will call up Amazon tomorrow and ask them what they think :)

TadW
12-13-2007, 04:19 AM
Thanks for the details, mrkai. I don't agree though when you say "Fair use" has nothing to do with it. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use):

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include--

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Now apply these four factors to a situation where you legally purchase a book from Mobipocket or Fictionwise using the PID of your own Kindle device.

Sure if a user agrees on Amazon terms (which are to be questioned too), this agreement may take precedence over fair use rights. :chinscratch:

Also, it may be questioned whether Amazon even has the right to control how I use the Kindle, given that I bought the device (I didn't rent it nor do I have a subscription plan with Amazon) -- legally, it's my own device! Nobody can sue me when I use it as a brick for the roof of my house; nor do I believe could anyone sue me if I put legal content on it, though content that was not sanctioned by Amazon.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 05:00 AM
This is exactly why the whole issue is a New Kind of Stupid :)

BTW, *never* quote the Wikipedia as an authoritative source on anything :D

That said, people that use this tool are drawing a line in the sand of legal/moral/ethical digital content.

Many people like to say how cut and dry it all is...The Law is The Law....Ethics...Respect...you name it. I have read many threads that I haven't even bothered to respond to because many of those that post "know right from wrong" even when such things are more like "which right is wrong today"?

If you want to take your Kindle and beat it to bits, that's fine. if you want to use it as a cake platter, hurrah for you. I won't get into the really nasty and gross things you are perfectly allowed to do with your Kindle.

The thing is you own the plastic and the fiddly bits. The stuff that makes it go...you aren't allowed to diddle with because it doesn't belong to you.

if you want to read DRM'd content on it that Amazon doesn't sell and do an end-run around this, then you are hard-bitten criminal scum, a godless immoral hedonist, a hood, a crook, a liar or a thief with no honor or decency. And you are robbing Amazon of potential revenue by NOT buying a Kindle authorized copy/version of the book for use on the Kindle.

Nice, huh?

zartemis
12-13-2007, 05:01 AM
Alright. First there is: Use of Digital Content.

You are not allowed to use any Digital Content not authorized by Amazon on the device:

Notice that in the Digital Store/Kindle Store section that Amazon get to pick how this is defined..."from time to time.

However, "Digital Content" referred to in the TOS remains restricted to what is available from the Kindle Store and, yes, they are saying they may change what sort of content they offer in the Kindle Store from time to time and you may not use content from the Kindle Store if not authorized to do so. Unless they change the TOS, the current one does not apply to "digital content" not sold from the Kindle Store (because that's how they defined it).

mrkai
12-13-2007, 05:18 AM
However, "Digital Content" referred to in the TOS remains restricted to what is available from the Kindle Store and, yes, they are saying they may change what sort of content they offer in the Kindle Store from time to time and you may not use content from the Kindle Store if not authorized to do so. Unless they change the TOS, the current one does not apply to "digital content" not sold from the Kindle Store (because that's how they defined it).

So you ARE allowed to use DRM'd .mobi books from other vendors, then?

We'll see. Like I said, I'm calling Amazon Legal in Seattle in the AM when I get up.

I think tho, it is pretty clear. DRM'd content for the Kindle is in Amazon's format. No one else is authorized to license content in this format. No one else is licensed to create this format. Amazon doesn't even supply tools to make this format on the desktop for Amazon customers...do they?

No one outside of Amazon and its authorized agents (who are they?) have any rights or licenses regarding Amazon's file format whatsoever.

Its all about the implicit and explicit (yet again) and um, the Amazon format and its decryption is a part of The Software, the Service and the Device.

The only (heheh) legal way I am aware of to get an AWZ file of any kind is from Amazon with or without DRM.

So...what are you saying? Its your right to use unlicensed software for a format that Amazon doesn't even provide a desktop executable tool for...because you bought some entirely different thing from somebody else?!?!

This is preposterous!! Scandalous!! A blight upon mankind and a smack in the face of all that is Good and Right!!!

rixte
12-13-2007, 08:06 AM
Not true. Fictionwise is selling the Kindle format as well.

TadW
12-13-2007, 08:10 AM
Not true. Fictionwise is selling the Kindle format as well.

But only content that isn't DRM protected:

Why Doesn't Fictionwise Sell All Titles for Kindle?
We would love to, but Amazon.com makes it impossible for any other eBook retailer to sell big-publisher eBooks that require DRM encryption for Kindle. Oddly, this even includes another major eBook retailer that is owned by Amazon themselves!

We suggest you open a support ticket at Amazon.com asking them to change this policy. They could very easily allow other retailers like Fictionwise to sell Secure Mobipocket titles onto the Kindle device. Amazon.com allows other print-book merchants to sell through Amazon's site, so why shouldn't they allow other merchants to sell eBooks onto Kindle?

Obviously they've stumbled over the same issues with the TOS as we did in this discussion.

jasonkchapman
12-13-2007, 08:14 AM
Hmph, if the PID is generated from the serial number, I don't see a way for them to "fix" this, without also breaking access to our "legit" Kindle purchases. It's interesting. I wonder if he can do the reverse, de-Kindle an AZW file I've purchased from Amazon. That would allow me to read all my content on my Gen3!

From Amazon's viewpoint, though, that's the beauty of the connected Kindle. It's likely that, if they change the PID calculation algorithm, they can simply force-feed new downloads and replace every book with the new scheme. The bandwidth would cost them, but they would likely consider it worth it.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 09:00 AM
But only content that isn't DRM protected:

Obviously they've stumbled over the same issues with the TOS as we did in this discussion.

As its kind of obvious what fictionwise is doing here. They are sending files for conversion, having Amazon send them back, then publishing those as there is no licensed tool to create AZW files available DRM'd or otherwise.

I'm going to assume there isn't a "no redistribution" clause in the Terms of the email conversion service. Is this outlined in the Kindle manual somewhere?

HarryT
12-13-2007, 09:29 AM
This is absolutely brilliant, igorsk - well done! It gives owners of previous-purchased Mobi books a way to read their content on the Kindle, which can only benefit Kindle sales. It may be a technical breach of the Kindle TOS to do so, but Amazon would have to be crazy to object to it.

This tool is definitely NOT illegal in any way, shape, or form. Well done again!

mrkai
12-13-2007, 10:16 AM
This is absolutely brilliant, igorsk - well done! It gives owners of previous-purchased Mobi books a way to read their content on the Kindle, which can only benefit Kindle sales. It may be a technical breach of the Kindle TOS to do so, but Amazon would have to be crazy to object to it.

This tool is definitely NOT illegal in any way, shape, or form. Well done again!

...with its use?

What a bunch of hypocrites around here!

By sanctioning the use of this tool you are advocating circumvention of the Amazon Kindle system, causing them to lose potential revenue on lost sales via the Kindle store, sales that support the infrastructure of the system. You are "stealing" from Amazon and the Kindle Store! A mobi copy of a book and an AWZ copy of a book are *not the same*...just like an mp3 and a cd aren't the "same"...or a paperback and the hardback aren't the "same"...

Huh?!

Furthermore the tool is a result of reverse engineering, something forbidden to do or assists in ANY WAY in the Kindle TOS.

It doesn't matter if you can "justify" it...it's "wrong" to do.

Its OK to violate a covenant that you expressly agree to with your purchase and use and its explicit and implied restrictions because "you feel like it" now?

Blurring that "right and wrong" line a bit now, aren't we?

I know there isn't a DMCA in the UK, but here we have you advocating unlicensed software, circumvention of a DRM system (which is forbidden by the DMCA...its NOT JUST DECRYPTION and has nothing to do with SHARING. That's why is so BAD!) making unlicensed copies of a digital purchase...sheesh.

But is OK because somebody *besides* Amazon gets paid?!?! Its OK because "no one is doing anything morally wrong" even tho they run shy of a license AND a (horribly bad) law?

What...the...hell.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 10:21 AM
but Amazon would have to be crazy to object to it.

This tool is definitely NOT illegal in any way, shape, or form. Well done again!

...to object to a tool that robs them of potential revenue, eh? Would be NUTS to squash something that could cost them to lose money, huh?

It would be absolutely BONKERS for them not to protect their business model...just NUTS, right? :)

You realize that these same arguments are on the "other side" right?!

Bezos said himself that the model here is to lock the sales so they can undercut the competition and make up on volume. They would be crazy not to protect this model, you say?

::tee-hee::

HarryT
12-13-2007, 10:25 AM
It's not "circumventing DRM". The Kindle uses Mobipocket DRM; this is merely a tool to allow you to add the Kindle as one of the (up to four) devices that Mobi DRM allows a book to be encoded for. The book is still DRM protected and can't be read on any unauthorised device.

Amazon own Mobipocket. They still get your money whether you buy your books from Amazon directly or from MobiPocket. The benefit of buying from MobiPocket is that you can also read your books on any of the other devices which support the Mobi format.

This tool will encourage me to buy a Kindle if and when it's released in Europe, because it will allow me to preserve my investment in DRM-protected Mobi books.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 10:34 AM
It's not "circumventing DRM". The Kindle uses Mobipocket DRM; this is merely a tool to allow you to add the Kindle as one of the (up to four) devices that Mobi DRM allows a book to be encoded for. The book is still DRM protected and can't be read on any unauthorised device.

Amazon own Mobipocket. They still get your money whether you buy your books from Amazon directly or from MobiPocket. The benefit of buying from MobiPocket is that you can also read your books on any of the other devices which support the Mobi format.

Ummm.

1. If you by a DRM'd mobi from anyone, even with the PID from the kindle it DOES NOT WORK. The format is *changed* to the Kindle format. I've read the source code.

The Book IS NOT AUTHORIZED. If it were authorized, then the file would not have to be *made to work* Harry.

Amazon runs mobi as a separate business. Mobi's money is mobi's money and the Kindle store's money is the Kindle Store's money.

Sounds like you are justifying "stealing" from the Kindle store because you already "own" a copy of the book in a non-Kindle format :)

Where have I heard this before.

Either it is or it ain't.

Pot. Kettle. Howdy!

mrkai
12-13-2007, 10:43 AM
This tool will encourage me to buy a Kindle if and when it's released in Europe, because it will allow me to preserve my investment in DRM-protected Mobi books.

...to break the DRM on mobi's or pdf's or lit's to read them on a Sony device?

Or is this not your position on that matter?

And this is an honest question; i don't intend it to be facetious.

HarryT
12-13-2007, 10:43 AM
Ummm.

1. If you by a DRM'd mobi from anyone, even with the PID from the kindle it DOES NOT WORK. The format is *changed* to the Kindle format. I've read the source code.

That's because the Kindle also checks the supplier code in the file. The tool changes the supplier code to that of Amazon.

The Book IS NOT AUTHORIZED. If it were authorized, then the file would not have to be *made to work* Harry.

We are talking at cross-purposes. When I say "authorised", I mean that DRM has not be removed from the file. You couldn't post it on the internet and have it used by anyone with a Kindle. It will only work on the specific Kindle whose PID it has been encoded for.

Sounds like you are justifying "stealing" from the Kindle store because you already "own" a copy of the book in a non-Kindle format

Goodness knows that people here should know that I do NOT condone stealing e-Books. I've made that clear enough, I hope. Perhaps I need to write more posts expressing that viewpoint...

Format conversion is "fair use". This is a format conversion tool. It is NOT a DRM-circumvention tool.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 10:52 AM
You are redefining DRM to fit your needs and desires here.

YOU don't get to decide what the vendor has authorized. THEY do. Its part of the problem.

Amazon has not authorized any DRM content from anyone but Amazon. Because it is a technical roadblock doesn't make it any more right than someone buying a book from a vendor and "converting the format" to some other hardware that it will work on *regardless* of if that format is locked or not and they "could" share it.

If they never do then the "could" part should have ZERO relevance.

The Kindle is not authorized to use DRM'd content from anywhere but Amazon. You can't have it both ways.

Actually, you CAN, but from your postings previous, those that choose this path are...criminal :)

HarryT
12-13-2007, 11:02 AM
The vendor of the book is MobiPocket. They will encode a book for any device with a legitimate MobiPocket PID. This tool simply supplies such a PID. It is tied to a specific Kindle, so it's not reducing the "strength" of the DRM on the file at all.

This IS a breach of the Kindle Terms of Service, absolutely. Breaching that is not breaking either criminal or civil law. Amazon would be perfectly within their rights to prevent you from using the Kindle service as a result of your violation of the TOS, I suspect, should they wish to do so. That is something that each individual Kindle owner has to decide whether or not to risk.

Perhaps we had better just "agree to differ" about this. I do not own a Kindle, but welcome this tool as a means of leveraging the usage of previously-purchased Mobi DRM content on it. That can only be good for Kindle sales.

Others may of course disagree. That's fine.

DaleDe
12-13-2007, 11:23 AM
As its kind of obvious what fictionwise is doing here. They are sending files for conversion, having Amazon send them back, then publishing those as there is no licensed tool to create AZW files available DRM'd or otherwise.

I'm going to assume there isn't a "no redistribution" clause in the Terms of the email conversion service. Is this outlined in the Kindle manual somewhere?

I do not believe it is obvious at all and I do not believe your interpretation of what fictionwise is doing is anywhere close to the mark. What seem obvious to me is that Fictionwise is changing the extension on their Mobi files since that is all that is required to make them work directly on the unit and it is just a convenience for their customers.

HarryT
12-13-2007, 11:28 AM
What seem obvious to me is that Fictionwise is changing the extension on their Mobi files since that is all that is required to make them work directly on the unit and it is just a convenience for their customers.

That would certainly seem like a much more reasonable explanation, given that DRM-free Kindle files are just ".mobi" or ".prc" files renamed to ".azw".

mrkai
12-13-2007, 11:36 AM
DRM isn't just designed to protect content. It is designed to protect content within the framework of a particular business model.

Every single "consumer benefit" point you have made is pretty much the same as folks that oppose it. The "but its OK" point for you seems to be the actual content.

This is certainly a most...curious and unusual response to this problem, and it completly glosses over the issue that the Kindle store is being caused to lose "potential sales, money and revenue" with this scheme, revenue they have (heheh) the "right" to earn to support this product and the business model.

"They'll sell more Kindles" sounds a lot like "they'll sell more tickets" or "they'll sell more consoles" or...whatever.

"The vendor of the book is MobiPocket. They will encode a book for any device with a legitimate MobiPocket PID. This tool simply supplies such a PID. It is tied to a specific Kindle, so it's not reducing the "strength" of the DRM on the file at all."

Mobipocket is not authorized to sell books that work on the Kindle. Try going to Mobipoket and buying an AWZ of "I Am America (And So Can You)"

You can't. They aren't authorized for that device and format. A technical "end run" is no different than bypassing CSS on a DVD you bought to make it play on an unauthorized player.

And guess what? The DRM (CSS...the content on a DVD is digital. It is encrypted and region locked to prevent unauthorized usage and to restrict playback on certain devices) is *still on the DVD* when you do this, too. Ask a Linux person about this foolishness.

The restrictions are end-to-end. Flipping the ends to suit your needs then rationalizing why its ok to do so isn't right.

Or...is...it? I'd say we are more in agreement in this matter than I think you wish to admit :)

mrkai
12-13-2007, 11:39 AM
I do not believe it is obvious at all and I do not believe your interpretation of what fictionwise is doing is anywhere close to the mark. What seem obvious to me is that Fictionwise is changing the extension on their Mobi files since that is all that is required to make them work directly on the unit and it is just a convenience for their customers.

That works too.

Too bad those drm'd mobi files aren't the same as drm'd awz files tho huh?

JSWolf
12-13-2007, 11:40 AM
mrkai why are you not jumping all over my posts telling people about MS Reader DRM removal for format conversions?

kgian
12-13-2007, 11:49 AM
I don't understand what is all the fuss about.

It is absolutely not forbidden to put elsewhere bought content on the kindle, right?

It is perfectly legal and in accordance to the TOS to load bought content on the kindle. What is the difference if it is DRMed or not?

The power of the tool that I see is that kindle owners can now at last unDRM and backup their bought AZW files for the distant future when kindle maybe won't be around anymore.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 11:50 AM
mrkai why are you not jumping all over my posts telling people about MS Reader DRM removal for format conversions?
Because I find absolutely nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

I do not have a double standard in these regards. I am simply exploring this issue from the "other side" as in this regard the justifications seem to parallel those.

It "wrong" to convert content you purchased from one format to another because you aren't licensed to...or so we are told.

But it seems that its OK in this case because it suits the needs of those that wish it and the same justifications seem...valid here.

Which is nuts :)

Not a single person here has been able to demonstrate that using a DRM'd mobi is allowed on a Kindle without changing what they purchased. Someone else even posted a note from another bookseller explain why this is the case. Its not authorized or permitted.

But yet, because we can do a workaround to remove the technical limitation in THIS case to protect what we've bought and use exercise "fair use" its all OK :)

Even the reasons for doing it are the same...but yet we are told time and time again its all "wrong".

Funny, that. I guess in this instance, you reall are buying the "words in the book" and not the "eBook" itself huh? In THIS case you can do with what you bought whatever you want ::rolleyes::

Nate the great
12-13-2007, 11:53 AM
Not a single person here has been able to demonstrate that using a DRM'd mobi is allowed on a Kindle without changing what they purchased.

That's because I refuse to debate the issue with you while you are being obnoxious.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 11:54 AM
I don't understand what is all the fuss about.

It is absolutely not forbidden to put elsewhere bought content on the kindle, right?

It is perfectly legal and in accordance to the TOS to load bought content on the kindle. What is the difference if it is DRMed or not?

The power of the tool that I see is that kindle owners can now at last unDRM and backup their bought AZW files for the distant future when kindle maybe won't be around anymore.

No no kgian...this is DIFFERENT than all of the other discussions about using content from one device to the other because it is "essentially" the same thing and you "paid" for it and because of a technical bit of jiggery-pokery you can use the content on a device it isn't authorized for (check mobi's site for authorized clients and readers or Fictionwise's note on the matter) because "no one is getting hurt" with ths particular tool :)

Its TOTALLY DIFFERENT ;)

JSWolf
12-13-2007, 11:55 AM
I don't understand what is all the fuss about.

It is absolutely not forbidden to put elsewhere bought content on the kindle, right?

It is perfectly legal and in accordance to the TOS to load bought content on the kindle. What is the difference if it is DRMed or not?

The power of the tool that I see is that kindle owners can now at last unDRM and backup their bought AZW files for the distant future when kindle maybe won't be around anymore.
You've make a slight error in what you say. The tool does not remove the DRM. It just figures out the PID for the Kindle so you can order Mobi format ebooks and then it changes the supplier ID so it can be read on the Kindle.

Now, what I want to know is if it is that easy to do this so the mobi format ebooks can be read on the Kindle, why cannot a tool be made to change the awz ebooks so they can be read on other devices with Mobipocket?

mrkai
12-13-2007, 11:56 AM
That's because I refuse to debate the issue with you while you are being obnoxious.

...in this whole line of thinking I'm being obnoxious?

I think "smug" is probably more apropos. I'll cop to that.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 12:01 PM
Now, what I want to know is if it is that easy to do this so the mobi format ebooks can be read on the Kindle, why cannot a tool be made to change the awz ebooks so they can be read on other devices with Mobipocket?

buy books from the Kindle store without a Kindle anyway, this isn't as desirable, is it? You'd also have to get these things to accept the Kindle PID...which I belive the Mobipocket desktop software will?

igorsk
12-13-2007, 12:06 PM
Now, what I want to know is if it is that easy to do this so the mobi format ebooks can be read on the Kindle, why cannot a tool be made to change the awz ebooks so they can be read on other devices with Mobipocket?
Oh, it's possible all right. But that's a bit different since you're adding more devices to the book which is supposed to be read only on one.

P.S. mrkai, I rather enjoy your performance :), but would you please stop putting part of the message into the subject line? It makes following your messages a bit harder.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 12:10 PM
You sure Igor? Or by devices to do mean "not Kindles".

I'm pretty sure you can link more than one Kindle device to a purchase.

igorsk
12-13-2007, 12:12 PM
Yep, I meant "not Kindles".

JSWolf
12-13-2007, 12:13 PM
I don't understand what is all the fuss about.

It is absolutely not forbidden to put elsewhere bought content on the kindle, right?

It is perfectly legal and in accordance to the TOS to load bought content on the kindle. What is the difference if it is DRMed or not?

The power of the tool that I see is that kindle owners can now at last unDRM and backup their bought AZW files for the distant future when kindle maybe won't be around anymore.
You've make a slight error in what you say. The tool does not remove the DRM. It just figures out the PID for the Kindle so you can order Mobi format ebooks and then it changes the supplier ID so it can be read on the Kindle.

Now, what I want to know is if it is that easy to do this so the mobi format ebooks can be read on the Kindle, why cannot a tool be made to change the awz ebooks so they can be read on other devices with Mobipocket?

HarryT
12-13-2007, 12:34 PM
Now, what I want to know is if it is that easy to do this so the mobi format ebooks can be read on the Kindle, why cannot a tool be made to change the awz ebooks so they can be read on other devices with Mobipocket?

Because the book needs to be encoded for the PID of the MobiPocket device; that encoding is done by the download server, which in the case of Kindle books in Amazon's server.

Whereas a MobiPocket download server all you to type in the PIDs of up to 4 reading devices, and will encode the book so it can be read on any of those devices, Amazon's download server provides no mechanism for manually entering the PIDs of other devices.

Thus, one can encode a book purchased from a Mobi store so it can be read on a Kindle (with a bit of tweaking), but one cannot, and probably will never be able to, encode a Kindle book so it can be read on other MobiPocket devices.

igorsk
12-13-2007, 12:40 PM
Thus, one can encode a book purchased from a Mobi store so it can be read on a Kindle (with a bit of tweaking), but one cannot, and probably will never be able to, encode a Kindle book so it can be read on other MobiPocket devices.
Actually that's very easy :)

HarryT
12-13-2007, 12:44 PM
I meant legally, igorsk; not using Andreas' dodgy tool for it!

igorsk
12-13-2007, 12:46 PM
I didn't mean removing DRM altogether, I meant actually adding a second PID so that another device can read Kindle's file.

HarryT
12-13-2007, 12:47 PM
How can that be done? Using legal tools, obviously!

igorsk
12-13-2007, 12:55 PM
Well, you didn't mention anything about "legal" in your original question. Let me repaste it.
Thus, one can encode a book purchased from a Mobi store so it can be read on a Kindle (with a bit of tweaking), but one cannot, and probably will never be able to, encode a Kindle book so it can be read on other MobiPocket devices.
Italic was the part I was replying to :)
So yes, with a little modification you can make a tool to add extra PIDs to a Mobi file (which AZW is) without actually decrypting the content and read it on your PC or other devices. You decide whether it's legal or not... I guess it depends also on your country of residence :)

HarryT
12-13-2007, 12:57 PM
I see :).

DaleDe
12-13-2007, 12:59 PM
...in this whole line of thinking I'm being obnoxious?

I think "smug" is probably more apropos. I'll cop to that.

So that is what all the smileys mean. I wondered.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 01:04 PM
So that is what all the smileys mean. I wondered.

That's just me. I'm a smiley kind of guy :)
(oops)

For most of how this has gone tho, and the logic I find...twisted, I think the emoticon that sums it all best would be this one: :smack:

-K

HarryT
12-13-2007, 01:06 PM
What logic do you find twisted, mrkai? Not from me, I hope; I'm completely against stealing eBooks, but I don't regard the use of these tools as unethical. They certainly (AFAIK) aren't illegal - they aren't circumventing DRM, or anything like that. All they are perhaps doing is violating Amazon's terms of service.

jasonkchapman
12-13-2007, 01:07 PM
...in this whole line of thinking I'm being obnoxious?

I think "smug" is probably more apropos. I'll cop to that.

No, "obnoxious" is right on target. If you have specific problems with specific things that people have written on this forum, or if you are accusing specific individuals of holding a double-standard regarding DRM and/or e-book piracy, then you should cite the posts and address those specific individuals. What you are doing is no different from those who cast aspersions on everyone as e-book pirates, or those who claim that anyone who isn't anti-DRM is some part of a shadowy conspiratorial cartel.

TallMomof2
12-13-2007, 01:15 PM
Morally, I have no problem with format conversion. I'm fairly sure it's a TOS violation. I've already paid for the book, just want to read it on my device.

Many thanks, Igorsk!

jasonkchapman
12-13-2007, 01:21 PM
Morally, I have no problem with format conversion. I'm fairly sure it's a TOS violation. I've already paid for the book, just want to read it on my device.

I'm not even sure it's a violation of the TOS, as long as you load it via USB. The Kindle conversion, purchase, and direct download features are services. Disconnected, the Kindle is not. There is no service or subscription necessary to function in its capacity as a reader. As such, I'm not certain it can be subject to a TOS agreement.

HarryT
12-13-2007, 01:46 PM
Thinking about the matter more, I guess that being able to read Kindle books on other devices is of less importance, for the simple reason that you can't (currently) buy a Kindle book unless you own a Kindle (I bet igorsk will tell me I'm wrong about that, too! :) ). I suppose you might want to be buy a book on your Kindle and be able to encode it for Mobi on your smartphone, but being able to buy a book from Mobi and read it on your Kindle would seem to be the more useful capability.

catsittingstill
12-13-2007, 02:20 PM
FWIW, I think it's a great thing. Good for every honest player in the market.

Good for Amazon, because being able to play another format makes the Kindle more valuable, increasing demand for it. I don't think their book sales will even suffer, as their e-book prices are quite competitive with those of other sources, and the convenience of buying from them is unchanged.

Good for honest readers who bought Secure Mobipocket files because there is now one more e-book player on the market that can read their library.

Good for honest Kindle owners who now have more sources of readable ebooks.

The people that it hurts are people who hoped to cheat honest customers out of being able to read the books they paid for, in the hopes that their victims would pay all over again for the same content. The back of my hand to them; they deserve to suffer.

Though I do see one downside--I was figuring that the pool of Kindles that could only play unsecured mobipocket files would drive demand for non DRMed books like Baen's, and that increasing the availability of nonDRMed books would be good for everyone in the market. Now I'm not as sure that will happen.

But well done Igorsk! :thanks:

Alisa
12-13-2007, 03:08 PM
Good for Amazon, because being able to play another format makes the Kindle more valuable, increasing demand for it. I don't think their book sales will even suffer, as their e-book prices are quite competitive with those of other sources, and the convenience of buying from them is unchanged.

I think it's a good thing for the Kindle, too, yet Amazon obviously does not. I really would like to know why. It would have been simple for them to support mobi books. They made a choice not to.

jharker
12-13-2007, 04:38 PM
mrkai, at the risk of beating a dead horse even more, I wanted to put in a few words...

The point of this tool is to allow Mobipocket DRMed e-books purchased from non-Amazon suppliers to be read on the Kindle.

Now, given that the Mobipocket DRM allows an e-book to be read on up to four devices legally (without breaking the DRM), then the actual addition of another "device" to your Mobipocket book is not illegal or immoral per se.

This leaves a few other possibilities for objections. You could say one or more of the following: Figuring out the Kindle's Mobipocket ID is "wrong", because it's reverse engineering. Using the Kindle to read books not purchased from Amazon is "wrong"*. Using the Kindle to read DRM-ed books not purchased from Amazon is "wrong"*.
[ * In the above I've used the term "wrong" to mean "one or more of the following: illegal, immoral, or against the Kindle's TOS." ]

Let's take these on:
#1 may be true; it depends on exactly what needs to be done to learn the Kindle's DRM and what your definition of "reverse engineering" is.
#2 is obviously false, because it is too general. Amazon provides services to allow you to put your own documents (whatever they may be) on the Kindle.
#3, which is more specific than #2, may be true. Amazon might object to you buying books from someone else and then reading them on the Kindle.

Is #1 illegal, immoral, or against the TOS? I don't know; I'm not an expert. Let's skip this for the moment. (We can come back to it later if you like.)

#3 is more interesting. Let's consider some boundary cases.
Amazon sells subscriptions to various online blogs, newspapers, etc. I could subscribe and have the blog/newspaper downloaded to my Kindle every day. In this way I would be paying Amazon and Amazon would make money.

Yet, the blogs are also free via RSS feed on the Internet. I could just as easily write a script to download the latest RSS feed, convert it to html or doc format, and email it to my Kindle via Amazon. Aside from the $0.10 transmission fee, this is free: I get the blog on my Kindle, but Amazon doesn't make any money. But no one could argue that this is illegal, immoral, or against the TOS. There is no reason I must buy this blog from Amazon.


Another case: What if I buy a DRMed Mobipocket book from a non-Amazon seller, because Amazon doesn't sell this particular book? From Amazon's point of view, it doesn't matter whether I read that book on my Kindle or elsewhere: either way, I couldn't have bought it from Amazon. Amazon doesn't lose any money. This is certainly not illegal, and I would be very much surprised if it was against the TOS. Immoral? Personally, I don't think so.


The final case, of course, is: what if I buy a DRMed Mobipocket book from elsewhere, but I could have bought it from Amazon? Is reading it on the Kindle illegal? Immoral? Against the TOS? It is probably not illegal. Based on the cases above, I would tentatively conclude that it is also not against the TOS. Is it immoral?

I suspect that you think that case "c" is both against the TOS and immoral. Is that correct? And, if so, why do you think so?

Okay, that should provide some fuel for this argument... :grin:

Can you tell I'm avoiding my thesis? :bookworm:

jharker
12-13-2007, 04:47 PM
Thinking about the matter more, I guess that being able to read Kindle books on other devices is of less importance, for the simple reason that you can't (currently) buy a Kindle book unless you own a Kindle (I bet igorsk will tell me I'm wrong about that, too! :) )

Hey, HarryT!

I think that this functionality would be for more cautious or prudent book owners, who want to know that they will be able to read their Amazon-bought books even if and when the Kindle is no longer supported and the azw format is long gone. In general this is the argument in favor of data longevity and open formats. An e-book should (ideally) be readable for just as long as a p-book would be, if not longer.

I suppose this is only practically important for people who collect books or who re-read their books many times... but I'm one of those people!

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-13-2007, 04:51 PM
Another case: What if I buy a DRMed Mobipocket book from a non-Amazon seller, because Amazon doesn't sell this particular book? From Amazon's point of view, it doesn't matter whether I read that book on my Kindle or elsewhere: either way, I couldn't have bought it from Amazon. Amazon doesn't lose any money. This is certainly not illegal, and I would be very much surprised if it was against the TOS. Immoral? Personally, I don't think so.

The final case, of course, is: what if I buy a DRMed Mobipocket book from elsewhere, but I could have bought it from Amazon? Is reading it on the Kindle illegal? Immoral? Against the TOS? It is probably not illegal. Based on the cases above, I would tentatively conclude that it is also not against the TOS. Is it immoral?

I don't see the inputting of a non-Kindle document (DRM'd or not) that you have purchased, into the Kindle that you also own, as wrong. If it is your purchased and legal document, "fair use" allows you to convert it to another format (which is essentially what you're doing when you're breaking the DRM) to use it in another device that you own. And Amazon's TOS does not disallow your inputting non-Amazon documents into the Kindle. "Fair use" is duly covered.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 05:01 PM
They certainly (AFAIK) aren't illegal - they aren't circumventing DRM, or anything like that. All they are perhaps doing is violating Amazon's terms of service.

I think you are narrowing "Rights Management" here to "open readable format" when in fact as an end to end system it encompasses more than that.

There is device constraint, sales channel constraint, times-per-play, "time-to-live"...and a myriad of other fetters to consider, depending on implementation.

In this instance, the Rights chain is a seller/buyer/device one.

This whole thing is attractive because it breaks the sole-source rights chain in Amazons current model. Is there any doubt or question of Amazon's intent and implementation of this particular scheme?

I use "scheme" here in its broad meaning. I mean to imply nothing shady or shadowy here.

The established Rights Chain here is Clear: Purchaser/Customer (You) -> Sole Source provider/Vendor of "Premium" Content (Amazon Kindle Store) -> Limited Playback device (Kindle) * Number of Allowed devices in Scope of Allowed type.

Any part outside of this chain circumvents it. No part of their Digital Rights Management scheme as published, promoted or produced has secured AWZ content coming from anywhere *but* Amazon.

How this relates to other fair use scenarios is quite simple: Doing what is necessary to exercise fair use in one particular case outside the constrictions of whatever drm scheme/chain/copy control method implemented by the rights holder(s) isn't more legal/ethical/morally superior than any other one, Harry (since I have been asked to "name names" to avoid being "obnoxious") because the point is for the end user/customer to get to exercise fair use regardless of the intended business model!

My issue with you and many others here is that people are being tagged as "guilty" for exercising fair use because the end result or the process might render the control mechanisms Null and Void. The rationale here being used to laude this solution is that "its fair use because it still has drm". Fair Use has nothing to do with DRM, or if in fact the output lacks it and is a "clear" copy.

This does NOT MATTER. This is still Fair Use.

Redistribution is NOT fair use. That is copyright violation because the rights holders have exclusive distribution rights that they may assign.

The notion that it's Fair Use can't be if the person exercising "could possibly become a copyright violator" is in essence finding them guilty by association (because other people have done it before) or some notion of "thoughtcrime".

azog
12-13-2007, 05:02 PM
Yet, the blogs are also free via RSS feed on the Internet. I could just as easily write a script to download the latest RSS feed, convert it to html or doc format, and email it to my Kindle via Amazon. Aside from the $0.10 transmission fee, this is free: I get the blog on my Kindle, but Amazon doesn't make any money. But no one could argue that this is illegal, immoral, or against the TOS. There is no reason I must buy this blog from Amazon.

Actually it is against the terms of service:

"The conversion service on Your Kindle is meant for the receipt of personal, non-commercial documents only. You may not authorize the sending of documents from automated distribution services."

From the PDF Kindle manual on page 79...

mrkai
12-13-2007, 05:14 PM
Good precedents on how vendors feel about the role of DRM as a protection mechanism for not only the "content" but the business model have already been seen, assuming we care about the rights holders. A couple that come to mind and are both relevant in different ways are Apple vs Real Networks and the Universal Garage Door Opener case.

In the Apple/Real instance Real figured out how to pretty much do what's being done here: get stuff bought from there store onto apple's device..while preserving the locks by transmogrifying them.A CLEAR consumer benefit...a win-win. Anyone here remember this?

Real was told to cut it out or head to court because this was in violation of the DMCA, but more telling was that it revealed how the vendor (in this case, Apple) viewed DRM as not simply a copy control mechanism, but a supply chain one. As apple wasn't the content originator their interests lay in controlling and constraining the supply chain for "Premium" digital music.

Look familiar? :)

This was seen with the Garage Door openers as well...a CLEAR consumer benefit. The problem again is that it broke that sole source chain. They used the fact that the control codes were (very poorly) encrypted and obscured to make that go away...

This case more interesting in another way as they OEMs were the content providers, that content being the control codes.

Harpgliss
12-13-2007, 05:16 PM
Hi,

The justifications in this thread and other similar threads is bewildering, to me anyway.

I always found that if something has features you don't like, you don't buy it.

The DRM is part of what is being bought and of you do not agree, do not buy it.

I know there will be disagreements and justifications but the bottom line is that when you circumvent the DRM and make the tools public, you make the "piracy" you all say you are against, all that more likely to happen.

Someone above said to a poster to quote specific posts, well that is fine but when it is all over the site, it is not easy to quote one posts or a few to make a point.

The ebook readers have a DRM feature there to lessen the potential of piracy, if you circumvent it, you invite piracy.

Rather simple concept and not all the justifications here change it.

You buy a book for a specific device and this is the agreement you enter into when you make the purchase, unless I missed something.

When you break the DRM, then move that book to another device it was not bought for, you are in violation of the contract you entered into and this is an act of piracy.

I had a difficult time deciding whether I wanted to post this but the more justifications I have read in this thread and others, I get really angry that the majority of members here feel good and righteous with busting DRM circumventing the agreement they made when these books were purchased.

This post was not made to spur any sort of discussion but to register my anger and disappointment that this is permitted and supported here.

When I read the term "filthy pirate" here, my definition and who I put in this category is different and probably is more inclusive than most members here and I find this something that truly embarrasses me.

For a number of years, I have been very proud to be a member of this site but over time, this pride has turned to embarrassment with this sites policies on DRM circumvention.

Not trying to change things here as I see this is a futile gesture but more to register my feelings on the subject.

My logins here have been sparse of late and I see myself being less of a visitor and participant here as by being a visitor and/or a participant here, I become someone who condones something I do not, in my heart.

My post here is not directed to a person but more to the policies and acceptance of DRM circumvention by the community at large.

To Alex, You are responsible for expanding my usage of my pda through the mobile links you originally built this site on and I owe you tremendous "Thanks" for this.

Thank you and good luck on all you do in life.

David

mrkai
12-13-2007, 05:18 PM
I don't see the inputting of a non-Kindle document (DRM'd or not) that you have purchased, into the Kindle that you also own, as wrong. If it is your purchased and legal document, "fair use" allows you to convert it to another format (which is essentially what you're doing when you're breaking the DRM) to use it in another device that you own. And Amazon's TOS does not disallow your inputting non-Amazon documents into the Kindle. "Fair use" is duly covered.

:thanks: :iloveyou: :2thumbsup:

Seriously. Thank you for injecting this sanity. "Fair Use" doctrine is about the consumer; copyright is about the producer. It's as simple as that.

Bless you :)

tsgreer
12-13-2007, 05:30 PM
....In the Apple/Real instance Real figured out how to pretty much do what's being done here: get stuff bought from there store onto apple's device..while preserving the locks by transmogrifying them.A CLEAR consumer benefit...a win-win. Anyone here remember this?

Real was told to cut it out or head to court because this was in violation of the DMCA, but more telling was that it revealed how the vendor (in this case, Apple) viewed DRM as not simply a copy control mechanism, but a supply chain one. As apple wasn't the content originator their interests lay in controlling and constraining the supply chain for "Premium" digital music..

I will say that I have pretty much disagreed with your opinions on every single post you have submitted.

BUT you have a good point with this example, I do remember this now that you mention it...

Very interesting.

Alisa
12-13-2007, 05:32 PM
If it's a Mobipocket DRM file and the Mobipocket reader will authorize the PID then I don't see what rule's been broken here. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon changes it so the Mobipocket reader won't accept that PID later, though.

Nate the great
12-13-2007, 05:51 PM
For a number of years, I have been very proud to be a member of this site but over time, this pride has turned to embarrassment with this sites policies on DRM circumvention.

Not trying to change things here as I see this is a futile gesture but more to register my feelings on the subject.

My logins here have been sparse of late and I see myself being less of a visitor and participant here as by being a visitor and/or a participant here, I become someone who condones something I do not, in my heart.

My post here is not directed to a person but more to the policies and acceptance of DRM circumvention by the community at large.

To Alex, You are responsible for expanding my usage of my pda through the mobile links you originally built this site on and I owe you tremendous "Thanks" for this.

Thank you and good luck on all you do in life.

David

I started thispost intending to debate the points you made, but everything kept sounding like justifications for my actions. So, all I can say is that I'm sorry we do not see eye to eye.

I wish you well.

Barcey
12-13-2007, 06:20 PM
If it's a Mobipocket DRM file and the Mobipocket reader will authorize the PID then I don't see what rule's been broken here. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon changes it so the Mobipocket reader won't accept that PID later, though.

I agree that I don't understand what the problem is. You've legally purchased the book with DRM and you aren't removing the DRM. You're just enabling the Kindle to read what you've legally purchased. I don't understand USA antitrust laws but if Amazon was to purposely change the Mobipocket servers to not allow this it would seem to my naive understanding that they would be giving strong ammunition to a company like Fictionwise to lobby for an investigation.

They'd probably upgrade the servers with new features and accidentally break it because it wasn't in their test plan. :D

Alisa
12-13-2007, 06:24 PM
I agree that I don't understand what the problem is. You've legally purchased the book with DRM and you aren't removing the DRM. You're just enabling the Kindle to read what you've legally purchased. I don't understand USA antitrust laws but if Amazon was to purposely change the Mobipocket servers to not allow this it would seem to my naive understanding that they would be giving strong ammunition to a company like Fictionwise to lobby for an investigation.

They'd probably upgrade the servers with new features and accidentally break it because it wasn't in their test plan. :D

I wonder if they'd be covered by the fact that they always claimed they didn't support Mobipocket DRM.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 06:40 PM
I agree that I don't understand what the problem is. You've legally purchased the book with DRM and you aren't removing the DRM. You're just enabling the Kindle to read what you've legally purchased.

DRM isn't just strictly what we used to call "copy protection" in the days of yore, and I think a lot of people miss that distinction, because its kind of like the frog/slow/simmer/cook thing. Its been sneaking up on folks for awhile. People sort of make them the same in their mind, but DRM systems go beyond simple copy protection in that they also add *usage restrictions* as well.

Here is an example of digital rights management:

You go to Japan and buy Wii Fit for the Wii. You bring it back to the USA, but it will not play. You own the Wii, the copy of Wii Fit and the Balance board.

In the USA, it is against the law to:

1. Copy the Wii Disc (it is heavily encrpyted) and change the region bit on the image to USA and burn it back to a DVD-R

2. Modify the Wii you purchased and Own to play the JPN Wii Fit game you bought in japan.

3. Anything the Manufacture did not intend the system to be used for that involves changing any copyrighted code and/or/to circumvent any restraints on the usage in any way

Our mobi -> awz example here is a parallel to this one. You bought the book, you own the Kindle. The book has been constrained from working on the kindle. You aren't allowed to cirumvent these constraints without violating a very very stupid US law.

silvania
12-13-2007, 08:16 PM
If amazon wants to they can very easily stop this. They just change the mobi drm server to recognize a kindle PID and refuse to serve it to any other ebookstore besides the kindle store. Done. This could be done in less than one day, easily.

The fact that it is not done tells you something.

tklaus
12-13-2007, 08:22 PM
If amazon wants to they can very easily stop this. They just change the mobi drm server to recognize a kindle PID and refuse to serve it to any other ebookstore besides the kindle store. Done. This could be done in less than one day, easily.

The fact that it is not done tells you something.

That, plus the fact that Amazon's own freely available software (MobiPocket Reader), will also tell you your Kindle's PID. Given that, it seems to me that this whole discussion about whether reverse engineering the Kindle PID is wrong is pretty moot?

JSWolf
12-13-2007, 08:26 PM
Let's take these on:
#1 may be true; it depends on exactly what needs to be done to learn the Kindle's DRM and what your definition of "reverse engineering" is.
#2 is obviously false, because it is too general. Amazon provides services to allow you to put your own documents (whatever they may be) on the Kindle.
#3, which is more specific than #2, may be true. Amazon might object to you buying books from someone else and then reading them on the Kindle.

Of course, what mrkai forgets is that Amazon OWNS Mobipocket.

montsnmags
12-13-2007, 08:29 PM
If amazon wants to they can very easily stop this. They just change the mobi drm server to recognize a kindle PID and refuse to serve it to any other ebookstore besides the kindle store. Done. This could be done in less than one day, easily.

The fact that it is not done tells you something.

It might tell us something, though not a real lot. It might tell us:

- Amazon are not monitoring its affect

- Amazon are monitoring its affect to see if it's affecting booksales

- Amazon are researching how best (in all respects) to disable it

- Amazon see it as an enhancement of the device and have no intention to do anything about it

- something else?

So, the "something" we are being "told" is re really some potential things that we are not being told, and, really, nothing (of use). It could be "as yet" or it could be "not aware" or it could be "no intention". Thus, if they could stop this it will be a cause for concern for some. The fact that they haven't doesn't tell us much without explicit advice from them.

Cheers,
Marc

JSWolf
12-13-2007, 08:30 PM
If it's a Mobipocket DRM file and the Mobipocket reader will authorize the PID then I don't see what rule's been broken here. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon changes it so the Mobipocket reader won't accept that PID later, though.
But remember, you still have to MODIFY the file to get it to be read on the Kindle. So technically, you are doing more then just giving some shop a PID.

azog
12-13-2007, 08:39 PM
That, plus the fact that Amazon's own freely available software (MobiPocket Reader), will also tell you your Kindle's PID. Given that, it seems to me that this whole discussion about whether reverse engineering the Kindle PID is wrong is pretty moot?

Are you sure about that? I just installed Mobipcoket Reader 6.2 Build 594 (beta), and it sees my Kindle only as a mass-storage device, for which I can get no information (i.e., there is no Properties button which would normally show me the PID) and it doesn't recognize any of the content (Amazon or DRM-free), but I suspect that's due to the AZW filename extension.

tklaus
12-13-2007, 08:46 PM
Are you sure about that? I just installed Mobipcoket Reader 6.2 Build 594 (beta), and it sees my Kindle only as a mass-storage device, for which I can get no information (i.e., there is no Properties button which would normally show me the PID) and it doesn't recognize any of the content (Amazon or DRM-free), but I suspect that's due to the AZW filename extension.

I'm not sure which version I have (downloaded a couple of weeks ago), but it does indeed show my Kindle PID, and recognizes the device as 'Amazon Kindle'. I also verified that it matches the PID generated by Igor's script. It doesn't show all of the content on my Kindle, except for non-DRMed stuff that was synched there by Reader.

wallcraft
12-13-2007, 09:06 PM
My Kindle isn't recognized by Windows MobiPocket Reader, but the fact that some Kindle's (only the 1st shipment?) do broadcast their PIDs suggest that Amazon isn't carefully guarding the PID.

Nate the great
12-13-2007, 09:26 PM
Are you sure about that? I just installed Mobipcoket Reader 6.2 Build 594 (beta), and it sees my Kindle only as a mass-storage device, for which I can get no information (i.e., there is no Properties button which would normally show me the PID) and it doesn't recognize any of the content (Amazon or DRM-free), but I suspect that's due to the AZW filename extension.

I think this was a goof on the part of Amazon. When I got my Kindle (the day after it was announced), I checked to see if my installation of Mobipocket would recognize it. It did. I installed it at least 6 months ago, but it recognized the Kindle.

My best guess is that Amazon was using the Mobipocket software to support the Kindle during testing. They probably added it in a 5.something upgrade, and didn't think to remove it until after I announced that it was recognized.

I recently upgraded to 6.1 build 592, and the Kindle is still recognized. I am not going to test it by deleting the entry.

tklaus
12-13-2007, 09:44 PM
I'm running 6.0 build 580. Here's what the properties dialog looks like in Reader.

Nate the great
12-13-2007, 09:45 PM
I decided to test this, and installed Mobipocket Reader (6.1 build 592) on a different computer. It did not recognize my Kindle. My laptop still does.

I think we need to start looking for older installation files for MobiReader. At some point, they recognized the Kindle.

jharker
12-13-2007, 10:15 PM
Actually it is against the terms of service:

"The conversion service on Your Kindle is meant for the receipt of personal, non-commercial documents only. You may not authorize the sending of documents from automated distribution services."

From the PDF Kindle manual on page 79...

No, what they mean there is that I couldn't set up an automated scheme to sent RSS feeds directly to my Kindle. This says nothing about me manually downloading an RSS feed and then sending that document to my Kindle so I can read it. Even if Amazon also sells that RSS feed, I can still just do it manually and save myself the cost, and it's not against the TOS.

jharker
12-13-2007, 10:34 PM
In the USA, it is against the law to:

1. Copy the Wii Disc (it is heavily encrpyted) and change the region bit on the image to USA and burn it back to a DVD-R

2. Modify the Wii you purchased and Own to play the JPN Wii Fit game you bought in japan.

3. Anything the Manufacture did not intend the system to be used for that involves changing any copyrighted code and/or/to circumvent any restraints on the usage in any way

Our mobi -> awz example here is a parallel to this one. You bought the book, you own the Kindle. The book has been constrained from working on the kindle. You aren't allowed to cirumvent these constraints without violating a very very stupid US law.

Okay, regardless of what is actually legal, can we all agree that #1 is really stupid (and apparently contrary to the traditional copyright "fair use" defense)?

Does this mean that if I buy a DVD, Blu-ray, or HD-DVD disk, that it's illegal for me to rip a copy as an avi and keep it on my hard drive for my personal use? I'm pretty sure that that's precisely the sort of behavior covered under the "fair use" defense.

And if THAT is legal, why can't I re-burn the movie to a disk to watch in a different kind of player, which I also own?

---

However, I'm still not sure that the mobi->azw example is actually illegal as you say. The reason is twofold: The Kindle ID is available using standard Mobipocket software Standard Mobipocket booksellers allow you to add any device (including the Kindle) as an "allowed" device to any book.

Unfortunately, it appears that there is one more facet to this, which is that in order for the Kindle to read it, the mobi file must also list Amazon as the publisher.

Can someone (igor?) tell me: if you simply download a mobi book from a Mobipocket bookseller, with the Kindle device # included, then do the following things work?Use USB to put the file onto the Kindle, keeping the .mobi extension? Put the file on the Kindle by emailing the mobi file to it via Amazon?

And, mrkai, I'd like to be sure I understand you: is it your position that this technique is against the Kindle TOS and probably illegal, but that you don't actually think it's wrong or immoral?

Barcey
12-14-2007, 12:05 AM
Our mobi -> awz example here is a parallel to this one. You bought the book, you own the Kindle. The book has been constrained from working on the kindle. You aren't allowed to cirumvent these constraints without violating a very very stupid US law.

Your example is related to regional protection and I understand that DRM is larger then copy protection. The vendors feel it is their right to digitally manage the region that the software can run in and they are open about why they are doing it.

I don't think that Amazon would claim that it is their right to restrict competition and something that their DRM is designed to enforce.

mrkai
12-14-2007, 01:56 AM
Your example is related to regional protection and I understand that DRM is larger then copy protection. The vendors feel it is their right to digitally manage the region that the software can run in and they are open about why they are doing it.

I don't think that Amazon would claim that it is their right to restrict competition and something that their DRM is designed to enforce.

example then, if you'd like.

Amazon's business and the publisher's business interests are not the same. Amazon is a middleman. People like to think in terms of "amazon sells a Kindle = Profit" but the business model here is one of closed vertical integration. Amazon isn't just a "white box" reseller in this regard and hopes to make its money on volumes of book sales.

They cannot have the Kindle Store be a force to be recokoned with if some other retailer is cutting into the Kindle Store revenues.

Its a well understood model.

mrkai
12-14-2007, 02:00 AM
Your example is related to regional protection and I understand that DRM is larger then copy protection. The vendors feel it is their right to digitally manage the region that the software can run in and they are open about why they are doing it.

I don't think that Amazon would claim that it is their right to restrict competition and something that their DRM is designed to enforce.

signifigance of the region, apart from the content controls themselves.

It is Amazon's right, and in their business model certainly in their best interest, to constrain competitor bookseller's from "their" platform.

Think of the Kindle as a Macintosh. Its a market of vertical integration, "enforced" with a rights management scheme ("a different door") as opposed to a more commodity hardware horizontal model ("many paths to the same door")

mrkai
12-14-2007, 02:03 AM
Of course, what mrkai forgets is that Amazon OWNS Mobipocket.

SCEA and Sony Pictures Entertainment are the same :)

I look at Amazon's ownership of mobi as 1. built in R&D savings and 2. monopoly protection should they achieve their business goals.

They operate as separate business, separate pricing structures, executive teams, etc.

mrkai
12-14-2007, 02:04 AM
And, mrkai, I'd like to be sure I understand you: is it your position that this technique is against the Kindle TOS and probably illegal, but that you don't actually think it's wrong or immoral?

it is wrong or immoral in the least, no.

mrkai
12-14-2007, 02:06 AM
I think this was a goof on the part of Amazon. When I got my Kindle (the day after it was announced), I checked to see if my installation of Mobipocket would recognize it. It did. I installed it at least 6 months ago, but it recognized the Kindle.

My best guess is that Amazon was using the Mobipocket software to support the Kindle during testing.

This makes perfectly good sense. it would be silly to develop an asset like this when they had one they could tap.

igorsk
12-14-2007, 04:15 AM
Unfortunately, it appears that there is one more facet to this, which is that in order for the Kindle to read it, the mobi file must also list Amazon as the publisher.

Can someone (igor?) tell me: if you simply download a mobi book from a Mobipocket bookseller, with the Kindle device # included, then do the following things work?Use USB to put the file onto the Kindle, keeping the .mobi extension? Put the file on the Kindle by emailing the mobi file to it via Amazon?

Nope, that won't work.
Kindle doesn't check the publisher. It checks the "CustomDRM" flag which must be set in the drm record for Kindle's PID. That's what my second script fixes.

jharker
12-14-2007, 11:38 AM
Nope, that won't work.
Kindle doesn't check the publisher. It checks the "CustomDRM" flag which must be set in the drm record for Kindle's PID. That's what my second script fixes.
Ah, okay. I was confused about that.

Another question, then: after setting the "CustomDRM" flag, can other mobi readers still read the file? Or is it Kindle="CustomDRM On", Non-Kindle="CustomDRM Off"?

igorsk
12-14-2007, 01:38 PM
Another question, then: after setting the "CustomDRM" flag, can other mobi readers still read the file? Or is it Kindle="CustomDRM On", Non-Kindle="CustomDRM Off"?
Only Kindle's PID record is affected. All other PIDs are not touched, so they work (or don't work) as before.

reak
12-14-2007, 02:27 PM
Igor, first let me say that I think you are doing an amazing and, in my opinion, very important work. I believe that in the end, DRM'd books will be a thing of the past, just like DRM'd music, which is dead already, and in no small way thanks to the people like you. What we need is a blanket worldwide license for all kinds of content and the sooner it'll become a reality, the better.

Now, as for your current mobipocket-kindle hack which sparkled an 8-page long debate in this thread, it seems to me that it doesn't really work the way people think it does. The moment the vendor you are buying your books from decides to block Kindle IDs, that's it. From reading your new blog it is obvious that mobipocket.com doesn't allow you to redownload your files with a Kindle ID already, so the whole row is pointless. It is impossible to buy a book from Mobipocket.com and read it on the Kindle. You are saying that Fictionbooks works fine, but that's only for the time being.

So yes, with a little modification you can make a tool to add extra PIDs to a Mobi file (which AZW is) without actually decrypting the content and read it on your PC or other devices. You decide whether it's legal or not... I guess it depends also on your country of residence :)

I suppose that a tool which would allow one to add PIDs to files without the vendor's involvement is what is really needed by humanity. Leaving apart the questions of legality, of course.

nekokami
12-14-2007, 02:40 PM
I suppose that a tool which would allow one to add PIDs to files without the vendor's involvement is what is really needed by humanity. Leaving apart the questions of legality, of course.
It still wouldn't help for those benighted souls whose platform of choice isn't supported by mobipocket with a version of their software. If you're going to crack the DRM, go all the way and get the content out. May as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb. :rolleyes:

reak
12-14-2007, 02:50 PM
It still wouldn't help for those benighted souls whose platform of choice isn't supported by mobipocket with a version of their software. If you're going to crack the DRM, go all the way and get the content out. May as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb. :rolleyes:

Cracking DRM all the way is simply much more difficult, as I understand it. Igor said that adding more PIDs is possible without decripting the file. That would be a nice solution while we are waiting for more substantial advances.

HarryT
12-14-2007, 02:52 PM
I believe that in the end, DRM'd books will be a thing of the past, just like DRM'd music, which is dead already

I believe you're mistaken - about the music, I mean. Take a look at Apple's iTunes store; you'll find that the overwhelming majority of music on it is DRM-protected.

HarryT
12-14-2007, 02:59 PM
I will call up Amazon tomorrow and ask them what they think :)

Well? What did they say?

reak
12-14-2007, 03:03 PM
I believe you're mistaken - about the music, I mean. Take a look at Apple's iTunes store; you'll find that the overwhelming majority of music on it is DRM-protected.

I'm not talking about the stores but about the music people are actually listening to. You'll need $40K to fill an iPod with iTunes songs. What about the huge number of mp3 players which are not iPods and therefore you can't buy music to fill them "DRM-way" anywhere. Of course, the stores offering DRM music are there, and the DRM talk is there allright. However, if you look closely you'll see that the concept is dead and everybody in the industry knows that, even while they are still suing some unfortunate p2p folk.

igorsk
12-14-2007, 03:06 PM
Cracking DRM all the way is simply much more difficult, as I understand it.
Oh, it's quite easy all right, but after the last C&D letter I'm a bit hesitant about releasing such things...

HarryT
12-14-2007, 03:07 PM
Nonetheless, I believe that Apple have some ridiculous share of the MP3-player market - isn't it 80+% or something like that? - and iTunes is the most popular music store in the world, bar none. It makes huge amounts of money.

I don't personally buy from iTunes, because it's not very good for classical music, which is my thing. I buy CDs and rip them myself.

reak
12-14-2007, 03:16 PM
Oh, it's quite easy all right, but after the last C&D letter I'm a bit hesitant about releasing such things...

May I ask what the letter was about and when you got it? Was it from Amazon or Sony?

Of course, I see what you mean about feeling hesitant. We all remember the Adobe story. However, what one might do (as a purely theoretical possibility without any connection to our current topic) is releasing such a thing anonymously from an obscure African internet cafe server. It would just be there for people to use.

HarryT
12-14-2007, 03:20 PM
Speaking for a moment with my moderator's hat on, please remember that we do NOT associate ourselves in any way, shape, or form, with illegal DRM-cracking tools here on MobiPocket. We've always been very, very strict about that. It could get us shut down.

This tool of igorsk's is clearly not a DRM-circumvention tool, but a tool which permitted one to add additional PIDs to a MobiPocket file would be, because it would allow anyone to read any Mobi book on their Mobi device by adding their own device PID to the file.

MobiPocket have shown in the past that their lawyers will come down like the proverbial ton of bricks on anyone who attempts to circumvent Mobi DRM.

Liviu_5
12-14-2007, 03:21 PM
The DRM is part of what is being bought and of you do not agree, do not buy it.





By and large understood by people since they by and large do not buy e-books, and in the rare cases they do as opposed to print, they prefer non-drm to drm by a large margin.

As mentioned before, everyone is welcome to sell their drm books, but they should not be surprised if there are few takers.

reak
12-14-2007, 03:37 PM
Speaking for a moment with my moderator's hat on, please remember that we do NOT associate ourselves in any way, shape, or form, with illegal DRM-cracking tools here on MobiPocket. We've always been very, very strict about that. It could get us shut down.


Of course, I understand that and I've read other posts of yours written from under that hat so I know the rules of this forum. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that whatever public policy is there, it must at the end of the day be beneficial to the society at large. I believe that the DRM-based model of compensation for the authours and publishers is very poor at both protecting their interests and at being beneficial to the society. So the sooner it crumbles, the better. I have no doubt that in 20 year's time at most, DRM distribution will be no more than a distant memory of a stone age period in digital history.


This tool of igorsk's is clearly not a DRM-circumvention tool, but a tool which permitted one to add arbitrary numbers of additional PIDs to a MobiPocket file would be!

Exactly. No need to release it here. :)

marieclaire
12-14-2007, 06:31 PM
.....

mrkai
12-14-2007, 06:38 PM
This tool of igorsk's is clearly not a DRM-circumvention tool,

...because clearly, it is :)
I believe what your meant to say was "is clearly not a DRM decryption tool"

;)

mrkai
12-14-2007, 06:40 PM
Well? What did they say?

...and was quite busy today. Its #1 on my Monday morning list however.

TallMomof2
12-14-2007, 07:21 PM
Are you sure about that? I just installed Mobipcoket Reader 6.2 Build 594 (beta), and it sees my Kindle only as a mass-storage device, for which I can get no information (i.e., there is no Properties button which would normally show me the PID) and it doesn't recognize any of the content (Amazon or DRM-free), but I suspect that's due to the AZW filename extension.

I'm having the same issue. Kindle was recognized as a device until I installed 6.1. Think I'll see if I can uninstall 6.1 and go back to 6.0.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 01:08 PM
Nonetheless, I believe that Apple have some ridiculous share of the MP3-player market - isn't it 80+% or something like that? - and iTunes is the most popular music store in the world, bar none. It makes huge amounts of money.

It is the most popular *digital* music store in the world, but its sales pale in comparison to CD sales and music swapped on the Internet.

The thing is tho Harry that iTunes DRM content has MUCH more value than any DRM'd ebook out there, and even more than the industry backed players that it left in the dust. Forget the fact that you can play it on like 5 computers and as many iPods as you can plug into your computer...which is pretty damned fantastic.

You see, any and every track you buy from Apple has the same rights, the most beneficial of them is the fact that you can burn your purchases onto CD.

Your music, your *content*...the thing that is of "value" here can then be played on any cd player on earth.

eBook buyers of content from "premium" publishers and authors can only *dream* of such a scenario.

And this is for a USD 99 product! Is it any wonder that they sell 1000s of tracks a minute?

HarryT
12-15-2007, 02:38 PM
The thing is tho Harry that iTunes DRM content has MUCH more value than any DRM'd ebook out there, and even more than the industry backed players that it left in the dust. Forget the fact that you can play it on like 5 computers and as many iPods as you can plug into your computer...which is pretty damned fantastic.

You see, any and every track you buy from Apple has the same rights, the most beneficial of them is the fact that you can burn your purchases onto CD.


Yes, I'm well aware of all that. That's precisely why I disagreed with the statement the music DRM is dead. I don't believe it's dead at all, simply because it's not overtly restrictive in the way that some book DRM is.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 04:49 PM
Gotcha. Understood. I apologize for assuming your understanding was for possibly some other reason.

THJahar
12-16-2007, 02:16 AM
I think we are overlooking something, is the fact that Amazon used a 'bespoke' DRM scheme actually a backdoor to a DRM free e-book movement?
Hear me out.
What if the kindle does become the iPod of the ebook world, and sells millions of units.
Like the ipod, people with a bit of moral backbone will actually start buying DRM'ed product rather than just sucking it up from the Darknet.
But unlike the iPod the competitors will realise that they cannot compete by using an alernate DRM scheme (i.e. plays for sure and other mp3 players) because as the example shows, it failed miserably, as was the case with MP3 players, the other services have realised that they had to go to a DRM free model which with a lot of badgering and heckling of the record companies they have slowly started to do.
Now print publishers (those money hungry oligopolists) will inevitable consider the great idea of cutting out the middle man.
So you now have a iPod like device used by (potentially in the future) millions of people.
IF Amazon choose to refuse other competitors stores (namely the direct from the publisher stores) to use their bespoke DRM, then surely the publishers with the record companies past efforts in mind (and the succeses of publishers like Baen) will switch to non-DRM azw files.
Hence we reach that utopian future we all crave, one where we are no longer treated like potential criminals, but as trustworthy human beings and can purchase our books with the freedom of utilising them on whichever device we wish.

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-16-2007, 11:41 AM
I don't really think Amazon is planning to purposely exclude any publishers from converting their books to Kindle's format. Since they already have print-based business relationships with them, they are more likely to point to their pull in the market, and convince them to join rather than fight.

Also, Amazon makes it easy for publishers with no prior busiess relationship to get their books into Amazon's hands anyway, through their desktop publishing system. This doesn't seem like a company that plans to exclude anybody.

On the other hand... making e-book purchasing and reading fairly ubiquitous and iTunes/iPod easy, which Amazon is clearly attempting with the Kindle, could result in a market confortable with buying e-books (and mainly leaving them on their Kindle, as opposed to copying or sharing). In such a market, DRM could potentially be removed, with no appreciable loss to the industry, as iTunes is now releasing non-DRM'd music.

THJahar
12-16-2007, 02:00 PM
I don't really think Amazon is planning to purposely exclude any publishers from converting their books to Kindle's format. Since they already have print-based business relationships with them, they are more likely to point to their pull in the market, and convince them to join rather than fight.

yeh but that's the whole point of my argument....the publishers tired of giving amazon a slice of the pie, do not need to do so if they had their own online stores, and with that of course amazon are not going to allow these stores to use DRM'ed AZW files, therefore the publishers will have no choice but to go DRM free if they want to cut out amazon altogether (on the precept that the kindle is the ubiquitious device)

mrkai
12-16-2007, 02:04 PM
That's not really how it works.

You see, the idea (sigh) isn't to sell as much as you can to people that want to buy it. They idea is to prevent people that don't want to buy it from getting it :) Completely backwards.

Hence, the current state of affairs, ie utter chaos, fraught with implication and doomed to failure.

jasonkchapman
12-16-2007, 03:51 PM
yeh but that's the whole point of my argument....the publishers tired of giving amazon a slice of the pie, do not need to do so if they had their own online stores, and with that of course amazon are not going to allow these stores to use DRM'ed AZW files, therefore the publishers will have no choice but to go DRM free if they want to cut out amazon altogether (on the precept that the kindle is the ubiquitious device)

Some of them already have their own stores, though. Simon & Schuster sells e-books (http://www.simonsays.com/content/index.cfm?pid=523087&tab=6) directly at 35% off list. They support Adobe, MS, and eReader. If they were going to give up Kindle sales, they might just as easily keep the DRM and sell on price. If they can sell to Amazon at wholesale, they can just as easily sell to the public at wholesale.

Liviu_5
12-16-2007, 09:14 PM
What if the kindle does become the iPod of the ebook world, and sells millions of units.


That is a zero probability event in the current Kindle incarnation.

carld
12-17-2007, 11:03 PM
I'm having the same issue. Kindle was recognized as a device until I installed 6.1. Think I'll see if I can uninstall 6.1 and go back to 6.0.

Would anyone happen to have a link to version 6.0? All I've found so far is 6.1.

astra
12-18-2007, 05:25 AM
Guys and gals!

I thought that after this hack, Igorsk's karma would be boosted up by a few thousands...come on! Do it!

He has done such a wonderful job!

I, personally, have no use for it but the idea..

TallMomof2
12-18-2007, 11:55 AM
Would anyone happen to have a link to version 6.0? All I've found so far is 6.1.

I couldn't find it either.

Nate the great
12-18-2007, 04:04 PM
but I have found 5.0, 5.1, and 5.2. They do not recognize the Kindle or any other device. It appears that they depend upon PDA desktop software to add a device.

My best guess is that it wasn't added until 6.0. I am going to go look for it some more. If I can't find it, I will seriously consider putting a $50 bounty on it.

TallMomof2
12-18-2007, 07:01 PM
If you find it, let me know. I'll be glad to chip in on the bounty especially if 6.0 will recognize my Kindle.

Nate the great
12-18-2007, 10:02 PM
Found a copy. It should be attached to:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=129678#post129678

brecklundin
12-19-2007, 03:14 AM
ok...maybe I just am too dense. But I do not get it. The work around/hack is only going to serve to INCREASE the customer base for Kindle's. Right? And this capability should have been included in the Kindle to begin with. At least the ability to read mobi DRM'd books. Of course there could be legal issues surrounding that in spite of Amazon owning Mobipocket. Perhaps it's a licensing issue...for now.

In the mean time this makes me somewhat reconsider my not buying a Kindle on principle. There are tons of books Amazon does not offer in AZW format that I want to read so maybe I might be motivated to join in...of course there is the form-factor-gen1 issue nagging at me still. Plus I want it to have an easel-like stand that pops out of the back so I do not need to hold the thing.

But cool hack done in the grand spirit of true "hacking" as it was when I was first learning to code. Nobody is "stealing". Igor's scripts simply make it possible to use the Kindle for additional purposes. How is that harmful to ANYONE? Well, maybe to Sony and maybe Cybook...but...oh, well...let them duke it out and the zillion dollar AmeriCorps and EuroCorps squabble over their "rights" against each other. We are just consumers looking to get the most out of products we pay for and acquire within the rules provided.

Is using my Kindle as a paperweight a TOS violation? ;)

If Amazon does coerce other book sellers to not accept Kindle PID's then there might be an issue against Amazon.

It still reminds me of all the "format" wars over various word processing formats that suddenly became an issue when MS Word could not compete feature wise with WordPerfect and Ami Pro and others...or the spreadsheet format wars for the same reason.

It is just flat silly to make one pay $400 for s device then tell me I cannot use it for whatever purpose I care to...and if Amazon tries to kill a device because of content it contains...that might be a whole new ball of wax in terms of privacy issues. Not sure is the TOS allows for a doc jelly-finger probing. Just that one cannot have unlicensed KINDLE content. If Amazon allows other forms of content then they have to allow DRM'd content in a different format as long as it was purchased legally and the Kindle PID is valid.

I am also certain there is a key stroke/combination that will open a diag mode which will also reveal the setup and ID details too. it almost has to be there for repair/diagnostic work. If so then there is no way to say it is reverse engineering to extract the PID. Think about it...for customers w/o EVDO access calling support because for some reason they get an error due to Amazon having an error in the PID they have on record, the client/consumer has to be able to extract the PID manually at their kitchen table. It is the only way to determine if the device is defective or the PID has an error. And that is certainly faster and more cost effective then have a now PO'd customer have to ship their new device back when it might be addressed in 5-minutes over the phone.

The TOS, I believe, states one agrees not reverse engineer the AZW format. B But it says nothing about converting other files INTO AZW format correct? I mean explicitly does the TOS address such a conversion? From my reading it does not. And as the PID is broadcast over EVDO does that make it sort of public? Even if it is encoded? Not sure...

We need universal DRM and let it go at that...the more formats a player supports the more devices a company will sell and the more content they will sell.

Last if Amazon insists on the only DRM'd format allowed to be direct from Amazon AZW then the device should cost $50 not $400. I still say if they made a monthly plan as they do with Audible and sell the device for even $100 they will come out much farther ahead...opps...I am waaaay off topic...sorry...

Just cool work around solution...saved for future reference as I feel Kindle will win the market.

GatorDeb
01-02-2008, 02:56 PM
How do I run a python script? Win XP, Firefox 3 Beta 2. Thanks! :)

ctitanic
01-02-2008, 03:04 PM
As its kind of obvious what fictionwise is doing here. They are sending files for conversion, having Amazon send them back, then publishing those as there is no licensed tool to create AZW files available DRM'd or otherwise.

I'm going to assume there isn't a "no redistribution" clause in the Terms of the email conversion service. Is this outlined in the Kindle manual somewhere?

Well, that's not right. If you use Mobipocket Creator to create a PRC file and after that you rename the PRC with extension AZW you will see that your Kindle will open the file without any problem. So there is not need to send the file to Amazon to get a AZW.

wallcraft
01-02-2008, 03:49 PM
How do I run a python script? See How to make Igor's script work (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18310).

romanocj
01-16-2008, 11:16 PM
I have the opposite issue. I bought a Kindle and a bunch of books but switched to iLiad. is there anything that will convert .AZW files to something readable on iLiad?

DaleDe
01-17-2008, 03:48 PM
I have the opposite issue. I bought a Kindle and a bunch of books but switched to iLiad. is there anything that will convert .AZW files to something readable on iLiad?

If they are not DRM protected then the extension can be renamed. Otherwise you would have to crack the protection which is illegal in most countries.

Dale

snookums
01-17-2008, 06:00 PM
I have the opposite issue. I bought a Kindle and a bunch of books but switched to iLiad. is there anything that will convert .AZW files to something readable on iLiad?

If you still have your Kindle, the screenshot function and a good ocr software should clear up that little problem. :book2:

romanocj
01-18-2008, 02:39 AM
If they are not DRM protected what can i read them with?

TallMomof2
01-18-2008, 07:30 PM
*If* they are not DRM protected then all you need to do is rename the file from:

YourFile.azw

to:

YourFile.prc

or YourFile.mobi

If you are on a Windows machine you will see the files listed without the file extension, however Windows will tell the file type.

HarryT
01-21-2008, 06:04 AM
If you are on a Windows machine you will see the files listed without the file extension, however Windows will tell the file type.

Only if you choose to. If you select "Folder Options" in Windows Explorer, then "View", and clear the "Hide extensions for known file types" box you'll then see the extensions. That's one of the first things I change on any Windows system I use.

TallMomof2
01-23-2008, 12:28 PM
Guess I automatically set up Windows to tell file types, also like to see all my hidden files and folders.

mateo
01-26-2008, 02:19 AM
OpenOffice can save to PRC. Can those be renamed to azw and they will run as well, or only files created with the Mobipocket program?

DMcCunney
01-26-2008, 02:58 AM
OpenOffice can save to PRC. Can those be renamed to azw and they will run as well, or only files created with the Mobipocket program?Are you sure?

Open Office Writer 2.3 here offers a Save As to Aportis Doc format as a PDB file. Aportis Doc files are plain text files compressed to save RAM on Palm devices, and decompressed on the fly by doc viewers.

If Open Office can create Mobipocket format ebooks, it's news to me.
______
Dennis

mateo
01-26-2008, 01:50 PM
i guess i was wrong then.

any alternatives to mobipocket creator then?

tompe
01-26-2008, 02:01 PM
i guess i was wrong then.

any alternatives to mobipocket creator then?

My MobiPerl (html2mobi or opf2mobi) or run mobigen in Wine.

mateo
01-26-2008, 02:22 PM
do either do a table of contents?

tompe
01-26-2008, 02:39 PM
do either do a table of contents?

Both mobigen and opf2mobi handles table of contents if they are specified in the correct way. html2mobi generates a TOC for a collection of files. for one file you have to put the TOC in the HTML files yourself.

What kind of functionality are you looking for concerning table of contents?

GatorDeb
01-27-2008, 11:19 PM
I got my Kindle's PID both from the script and from Mobireader, and added it to my library account, and downloaded a book - no go :( I'm not authorized to view it. I can open it in Mobireader just fine (my PC is one of the 3 devices allowed at the library).

wallcraft
01-28-2008, 01:05 AM
See A Beginner's Guide to Kindle Content (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19649) (1st post item 4). The bottom line is that only Fictionwise and BooksOnBoard MOBI e-books work on the Kindle.

igorsk
01-28-2008, 08:53 AM
I got my Kindle's PID both from the script and from Mobireader, and added it to my library account, and downloaded a book - no go :( I'm not authorized to view it. I can open it in Mobireader just fine (my PC is one of the 3 devices allowed at the library).
You also need to post-process the book file with kindlefix.py. If it still doesn't work then I'm afraid it's not possible to read library books on Kindle.

nekokami
01-28-2008, 09:57 AM
Oh, now THERE'S a missed market opportunity. Libraries often buy books from Amazon already. They could clean up if they could make sure mobi library books would run on the Kindle.

GatorDeb
01-28-2008, 02:00 PM
You also need to post-process the book file with kindlefix.py. If it still doesn't work then I'm afraid it's not possible to read library books on Kindle.
I am going to try that RIGHT NOW :D

::runs from thread::

GatorDeb
01-28-2008, 02:23 PM
IT WORKS IT WORKS IT WORKS :D :) :D :)

This is so awesome. Although the titles are all screwed up so you have to open them to see what they are.

It sucks that my library has more DRM PDF than DRM PRC, but hey, something is something, and hopefully the Kindle of the Sony Reader will implement DRM PDF.

Nate the great
01-28-2008, 03:35 PM
You're lucky. My library only has PDFs, no Mobipocket.

TallMomof2
01-29-2008, 10:14 AM
ebooks.com accepted my Kindle PID so I assume that I'll be able to download and read my DRMed MobiPocket books I purchased there. Haven't tried it yet but I will when I get some extra time.

@GatorDeb - If you want to fix the titles use mobiperl (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17718) Tompe made windows executables (I'm assuming you're using a windows computer) and mobi2mobi would allow you to add the title and author to the .AZW files. I had to do that because I had way too many DRMed MobiPocket books so I need to see the title.

ctitanic
01-29-2008, 11:03 AM
You also need to post-process the book file with kindlefix.py. If it still doesn't work then I'm afraid it's not possible to read library books on Kindle.

It does not work in Mobipocket. But It works in Fictionwise. The problem with Mobipocket is the they do not support the * in the PID.

GatorDeb
01-29-2008, 11:39 AM
TallMomof2 any easier way than installing Perl modules? I do have Mobipocket Reader installed.

wallcraft
01-29-2008, 11:50 AM
TallMomof2 any easier way than installing Perl modules? I do have Mobipocket Reader installed. Mobiperl comes with Windows executables that don't need perl to run. They are still command line programs though.

GatorDeb
01-29-2008, 12:14 PM
Mobiperl comes with Windows executables that don't need perl to run. They are still command line programs though.
Ah cool if that's the case then I did the command wrong... what would be the command to give 100.prc a title? Thanks! :D

wallcraft
01-29-2008, 12:56 PM
The example given on the mobi2mobi man page (http://www.ida.liu.se/~tompe/mobiperl/mobi2mobi.html) is: mobi2mobi --outfile out.mobi --title "Correction of title" file.mobi Note that the --outfile option is required and must be a new filename. I have also seen file.mobi as the first argument rather than the last.

dumky
01-29-2008, 02:40 PM
Can someone make a webpage to do this? It should be easy to pull the python script to power a web form.

I would do it, but my hosting provider does not support python...

GatorDeb
01-29-2008, 07:40 PM
The example given on the mobi2mobi man page (http://www.ida.liu.se/~tompe/mobiperl/mobi2mobi.html) is: mobi2mobi --outfile out.mobi --title "Correction of title" file.mobi Note that the --outfile option is required and must be a new filename. I have also seen file.mobi as the first argument rather than the last.

I did

mobi2mobi --outfile 100People.prc --title "100 people" 100.prc

and still get the messed up title :( BTW I'm running it prior to running it through kindlefix.

tompe
01-29-2008, 08:22 PM
I did

mobi2mobi --outfile 100People.prc --title "100 people" 100.prc

and still get the messed up title :( BTW I'm running it prior to running it through kindlefix.

How is the title messed up? If you send me the file 100.prc I will look at it to see if there is a bug in mobi2mobi or not (tpe@ida.liu.se or via pm).

GatorDeb
01-29-2008, 08:35 PM
How is the title messed up? If you send me the file 100.prc I will look at it to see if there is a bug in mobi2mobi or not (tpe@ida.liu.se or via pm).
I don't know that I can (legally) send it to you because it's a checkout from the library.
The title shows as:

DH N 3/4

tompe
01-29-2008, 08:38 PM
I don't know that I can (legally) send it to you because it's a checkout from the library.
The title shows as:

DH N 3/4

Sound like a bug but not possible to fix without the file ot the first record of the file.

mateo
03-22-2008, 07:38 PM
Does this work with books purchased from eReader.com? I'm planning on getting a book from there, but am scared to. I don't see anything about a PIN number on their webpage.

wallcraft
03-22-2008, 07:55 PM
Does this work with books purchased from eReader.com? No. The eReader format is different from the MobiPocket format.

TallMomof2
03-22-2008, 10:11 PM
Check the Lounge for information.

Ameryx
04-01-2008, 07:07 PM
I have a book I purchased from Books on Board, before I bought my Kindle. It displays fine on my Palm T/X; however, I would prefer to read it on the Kindle.

Now here's the problem: the book is no longer available for download. (It is a rare example of a truly banned book.) So, I can't re-download it with the Kindle PID.

Is there any way to get this book into Kindle format?

Thanks!

wallcraft
04-01-2008, 10:23 PM
Is there any way to get this book into Kindle format? See Mobipocket Decoder Tool (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20341). The resulting DRM-free PRC file will be readable on the Kindle.

TallMomof2
04-02-2008, 01:14 PM
See Mobipocket Decoder Tool (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20341). The resulting DRM-free PRC file will be readable on the Kindle.

Definitely works because one of my eReader books is longer available in any format and I successfully converted it.

Ameryx
04-05-2008, 10:39 PM
Wallcraft & TallMomof2, Thanks for the pointers. I have indeed tried that, and get an error message: no key found. Perhaps the PID is incorrect. I have verified the PID, and so am at an impasse... Any ideas?

TallMomof2
04-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Wish I could help you but I've never seen that error message. If you find out what the problem is, please let us know.

tantalus27
04-25-2008, 04:11 PM
I used the Mobipocket reader (6.0) to get the PID and used Igor's kindlefix to convert the format on a file I purchased from ebooks.com a few weeks ago. By all accounts, this shouldn't have worked from this site since most vendors don't accept the kindle code.
Was it the fact that I did the download over the Mobipocket reader that made it work?

Kintar
05-21-2008, 05:41 PM
Does anyone know if Amazon changed something about the DRM'd AZW files with their latest update to the Kindle? I'd been very happily purchasing (way too many) eBooks, then removing the DRM and adding the files to my backup archives. I spent the last month or so catching up on a bunch of things that precluded reading, though, and have just recently purchased two new books. MobiDeDrm still chews on the files and spits out a supposedly decrypted file, but now the Kindle claims it can't read the decrypted file.

Anyone else having this issue?

EDIT: I should probably clarify; these are books I've purchased on Amazon.com for use on my Kindle, and as such they come down as .azw files. I'm not trying to move them to a different reader, just back them up un-encrypted in case Amazon implodes, decides they're not supporting it anymore, etc., etc.

Alisa
05-21-2008, 09:57 PM
I hope not. It wasn't a .tpz file, was it?

Kintar
05-21-2008, 10:02 PM
I hope not. It wasn't a .tpz file, was it?

Nope. Everything I've bought to date has been .azw. I just realized, though, that it's got to be something that MobiDeDrm just isn't handling right. Of the last three books I tried to decrypt, one worked. I bought a book three weeks back, last week, and yesterday, and the one I bought last week decrypted properly. *shrug* Maybe I need to finally track down version 0.2 of MDD.

Nate the great
05-21-2008, 10:08 PM
Are you sure the file had DRM to be removed?

Rule of thumb: If the filename is all numbers, it probably doesn't have DRM.

Kintar
05-21-2008, 10:15 PM
Are you sure the file had DRM to be removed?

Rule of thumb: If the filename is all numbers, it probably doesn't have DRM.

*opens mouth, pauses, closes it* Well, I was assuming they were DRM'd since they're both very recent titles. (Thud, by Terry Pratchett, is only about 2 years old, and The Host was just released a few weeks ago.) But now that you mention it, I haven't actually tried to read them in anything but my Kindle.

One thing I just noticed; the filename for The Host is "The Host-asin_B000VMHHMQ-type_EBOK-v_0.azw". That v_0 at the end is typically v_1, if I recall correctly.

I'll grab the mobipocket reader for my PC and try it. Maybe the author/publisher just doesn't believe in DRM? (Yeah...right. *grin*)

EDIT: Realized that when I copied the filename, Vista was "helpful" and removed the extension. :P

daffy4u
05-27-2008, 11:06 PM
I'm confused about this script. I tried reading the whole thread but around page 5, my eyes started to glaze over with the DRM arguments. I'm sure the answer is obvious but I'm not finding it.

I'm a new Kindle owner, I have no ebooks purchased from a source other than Amazon. I have downloaded a couple of the TOR freebies and a few from feedbooks.

Do I need this script? If I purchase a book from Mobipocket (I've downloaded the software so I have my PID) that is not available on Amazon, wouldn't I just be able to copy the file onto my Kindle or email the file for conversion?

wallcraft
05-27-2008, 11:42 PM
Do I need this script? If I purchase a book from Mobipocket (I've downloaded the software so I have my PID) that is not available on Amazon, wouldn't I just be able to copy the file onto my Kindle or email the file for conversion? You don't need the script. If you have a MOBI file without DRM it can be read on your Kindle "as is". If you have a MOBI file with DRM, Amazon won't convert it for you but, if it is from a few ebook sources (which don't include mobipocket.com), you can get it authorized for your Kindle's PID and then kindlefix.py will allow it to be read on your Kindle without removing the DRM. There are other techniques that allow you to strip the DRM from MOBI ebooks, but these are thought to be illegal in the US and some other countries. Igor's script is thought to be legal, although of limited utility because MobiPocket (owned by Amazon) has blocked authorizations of MOBI files for a Kindle PID from its servers. Note that the Kindle is capable of reading DRMed MOBI files (without the kindlefix.py update) and MobiPocket is capable of authorizing DRMed MOBI files with a Kindle PID. Not allowing DRMed MOBI files on the Kindle is a sales choice made by Amazon, and they had to do more work to make sure this was not possible.

The best (shorter) guide to this is A Beginner's Guide to Kindle Content (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19649).

daffy4u
05-27-2008, 11:46 PM
Thank you very much Wallcraft. That makes sense. And thanks for the link as well. :)

renoel
06-01-2008, 12:53 AM
Hi Techies,
I have a new Kindle. I got the beginner's guide and tried to do everything right. Interestingly enough, Mobipocket reader gave me a Kindle PID with a $ sign instead of an asterick. However, I can't get the Mobipocket to send anything to the Kindle. It has recognized the Kindle and given it a PID, but now it says there is nothing plugged in. I have two things from Mobipocket (one purchased, one free trial) and one thing from Feedbooks which I downloaded and now shows up on the Mobipocket site.

BTW, Mobipocket never asked me for my PID. I bought the book and it just downloaded it .

I downloaded Igorsk's file, the python interpretor, etc., etc. (although I haven't a clue what to do with them), but I'm stuck. Anyone able to help?

Thanks!
Renoel

pilotbob
06-01-2008, 01:03 AM
Was the book not available on the Kinde store? The book you bought is probalby keyed to the software on your PC... I assume you can read it there.

BOb

Nate the great
06-01-2008, 01:13 AM
The PID with a $ probably belongs to your computer, not your Kindle. I'm pretty sure all Kindles have a * in the PID.

It sounds like you bought the ebook through Mobipocket Desktop. You need to open a browser and go to the site where you bought it. Enter your PIDs and download it again.

renoel
06-01-2008, 01:14 AM
Hi,
I don't know if the book was available on the kindle store or not. I bought an inexpensive book off of Mobipocket in order to be able to register and (I thought) give them my PID. But, that didn't happen.

I think you may be right. It may think my PC is a device. Any ideas why it's not registering my Kindle?

Renoel

pilotbob
06-01-2008, 01:16 AM
Hi,
I don't know if the book was available on the kindle store or not. I bought an inexpensive book off of Mobipocket in order to be able to register and (I thought) give them my PID. But, that didn't happen.

I think you may be right. It may think my PC is a device. Any ideas why it's not registering my Kindle?

Renoel

Do you have version 6.0? I think the later versions don't support it. Check out this thread.

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24285&highlight=kindle

Search the kindle store and see how much the book is... that should always be the first place you look with a Kindle... why do the extra work?

BOb

renoel
06-01-2008, 01:39 AM
Hi Bob,
I only bought the book because I wanted to register on Mobipocket. I didn't even want the book. (It cost $5.99). I think my computer is not even recognizing the kindle. I think I'm going to try it on my laptop.

Any other ideas?

Renoel

pilotbob
06-01-2008, 11:45 AM
Any other ideas?


Are you connecting to the Kindle while it is on? Also, what are you expecting to see when you connect your kindle? You should see an additional drive mounted in Windows Explorer... basically the same as when you plug a thumb drive into it.

BOb

Barcey
06-01-2008, 02:38 PM
Hi renoel,

When the Kindle first came out it was recognized by the Mobipocket Desktop Reader v6.0 and showed a PID for it but the PID didn't work. If I'm reading your post correctly that's the PID you tried to enter. Mobipocket has since "fixed" this by not recognizing the Kindle at all in later versions of the Desktop Reader.

Igorski's Python script generates a PID from the Kindle's serial number and this is the PID you should be using. Unfortunately I don't have a Kindle so I can't tell you step by step how to run it.

daffy4u
06-01-2008, 03:13 PM
I experimented with a couple of versions of Mobipocket on my dual boot XP/Vista laptop. Here are the results.


If Mobipocket 6.0 is installed on Windows XP, the Kindle will be recognized and it's PID will be captured.

If Mobipocket 6.0 is installed on Windows Vista, the Kindle will not be recognized at all and you will be asked to attach your handheld device... incessantly.

If Mobipocket 6.2 is installed on Windows Vista, the Kindle will be recognized and and additional drive but no PID will be captured.


If you're running Vista, try to install Mobipocket on an XP machine with your Kindle attached long enough to get the PID. That way you can run 6.2 on your Vista machine and just fill in the PID you got from the XP machine.

:)

wallcraft
06-01-2008, 03:15 PM
I bought an inexpensive book off of Mobipocket in order to be able to register and (I thought) give them my PID. But, that didn't happen. Note that mobipocket.com won't accept Kindle PIDs but it does work at some other ebooks sites, see A Beginner's Guide to Kindle Content (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19649).

renoel
06-01-2008, 08:46 PM
Hi,
Thank you for your help so far. I switched over to my laptop and made some progress. My computer "sees" my kindle. Yes, that's a good start. Mobipocket gave me a PID with a * in it. I was able to download a few free ebooks from Feedbooks. (Yes! What a treasure trove.)

Now, the part I haven't made any progress on. The 5.99 book I bought from Mobipocket (without it ever asking me for my PID). Is it going to be possible for me to unlock it and read it on the Kindle? What about books I might want to download from the library. I haven't figured out how to actually use Igorsk (or which Igorsk to use) etc. Do I actively have to do something with the Python reader etc.?

Thanks

Renoel

DaleDe
06-03-2008, 09:09 PM
Hi Bob,
I only bought the book because I wanted to register on Mobipocket. I didn't even want the book. (It cost $5.99). I think my computer is not even recognizing the kindle. I think I'm going to try it on my laptop.

Any other ideas?

Renoel

Mobipocket will not register a Kindle device. There are some eBook stores that will allow you to register a mobi file for use on a Kindle but MobiPocket is not one of them.

Dale

JSWolf
06-05-2008, 11:20 AM
Was the book not available on the Kinde store? The book you bought is probably keyed to the software on your PC... I assume you can read it there.

BOb
One advantage in not purchasing the eBook from Amazon is that you can put in the Kindle PID and your Mobipocket Reader PID (if you have Windows), or other device PID that has Mobipocket. Then you can convert it to work on the Kindle and be able to read it elsewhere like your computer or PDA.

pilotbob
06-05-2008, 11:22 AM
One advantage in not purchasing the eBook from Amazon is that you can put in the Kindle PID and your Mobipocket Reader PID (if you have Windows), or other device PID that has Mobipocket. Then you can convert it to work on the Kindle and be able to read it elsewhere like your computer or PDA.

Agreed, but then you loose the major advantage of the Kindle, which is the Kindle bookstore and prices.

BOb

JSWolf
06-05-2008, 11:22 AM
Mobipocket will not register a Kindle device. There are some eBook stores that will allow you to register a mobi file for use on a Kindle but MobiPocket is not one of them.

Dale
That's not really a problem as the prices at Mobipocket.com are outrageous. But we do have Fictionwise and BooksOnBoard to shop at instead.

DaleDe
06-05-2008, 12:31 PM
That's not really a problem as the prices at Mobipocket.com are outrageous. But we do have Fictionwise and BooksOnBoard to shop at instead.

True, but the original poster specifically said he bought his book from Mobipocket and was trying to load it on his Kindle. I was pointing out that he would not be successful so say it is not a problem is not an appropriate response for the original user.

Dale

desertgrandma
06-17-2008, 08:34 PM
I don't care what anyone says, Mr. Turcic DEFINITELY deserves Karma for this...and got it.

Leep
06-18-2008, 02:05 PM
The one need that I have for Igorsk python scripts are to get drm'd ebooks from my library to work with my Kindle. I have to register my PID with the library and download the books via mobipocket. I then must use "kindlefix" so that my Kindle will read the book. Still haven't gone through the mobiperl steps for fixing the titles. They seem complex and time consuming - any one know of a shorter fix for a novice user?

cheers

carld
06-20-2008, 09:31 AM
The one need that I have for Igorsk python scripts are to get drm'd ebooks from my library to work with my Kindle. I have to register my PID with the library and download the books via mobipocket. I then must use "kindlefix" so that my Kindle will read the book. Still haven't gone through the mobiperl steps for fixing the titles. They seem complex and time consuming - any one know of a shorter fix for a novice user?

cheers

I've been trying that with ebooks from Clevnet (Cleveland). The scripts seem to work but the Kindle still refuses to open the books. :(

Leep
06-20-2008, 01:47 PM
I needed to register my PID with my library first. I then connect my Kindle via usb and open mobipocket before I download the book. I next use "Kindlefix" to convert and get the awz file. If that's not the procedure you're using, you might try it.

cheers

carld
06-21-2008, 06:15 PM
I needed to register my PID with my library first. I then connect my Kindle via usb and open mobipocket before I download the book. I next use "Kindlefix" to convert and get the awz file. If that's not the procedure you're using, you might try it.

cheers

Yeah, got my Kindle PID registered with the library. Then, I downloaded an ebook, used Kindlefix to convert it to an azw file. My desktop is running Vista, which doesn't allow mobipocket to see the Kindle for some reason. Maybe I'll try it all on my XP laptop. Do you open the book in Mobipocket first before converting it?

pilotbob
06-21-2008, 07:10 PM
Yeah, got my Kindle PID registered with the library. Then, I downloaded an ebook, used Kindlefix to convert it to an azw file. My desktop is running Vista, which doesn't allow mobipocket to see the Kindle for some reason. Maybe I'll try it all on my XP laptop. Do you open the book in Mobipocket first before converting it?

What version of Mobipocket do you have?

Nate the great
06-21-2008, 07:55 PM
Version 6.0 has a bug under Vista but not XP. The USB drivers don't work quite right.

carld
06-21-2008, 08:41 PM
What version of Mobipocket do you have?

I have 6.0 on both desktop and laptop.

DMcCunney
06-21-2008, 09:29 PM
I have 6.0 on both desktop and laptop.The current version is 6.2. You might try an upgrade.

http://www.mobipocket.com/en/DownloadSoft/ProductDetailsReader.asp
______
Dennis

JSWolf
06-21-2008, 09:30 PM
But, 6.2 does not support the Kindle.

carld
06-22-2008, 11:47 AM
I repeated the process using my XP laptop, same result. The scripts seem to work but the books can't be opened on the Kindle. Unless I'm missing something obvious there's something else going on. I'm guessing since Clevnet books are set to expire they're just different enough to make them incompatible with the Kindle, even after they're fixed.

Leep
06-24-2008, 06:36 PM
I am using Mobipocket reader 6.2. While it does see my Kindle when it is plugged into the usb, very few of the books on my Kindle are recognized, and non of my library books. Therefore I email the awz version of the library books after I have converted them.

Can anyone verify that my assumption that mobi2mobi will not work to fix the titles on these books because they are still drmed?

cheers

DMcCunney
06-24-2008, 06:53 PM
I am using Mobipocket reader 6.2. While it does see my Kindle when it is plugged into the usb, very few of the books on my Kindle are recognized, and non of my library books. Therefore I email the awz version of the library books after I have converted them.

Can anyone verify that my assumption that mobi2mobi will not work to fix the titles on these books because they are still drmed?
Out of curiousity, what is the extension of the files Mobi 6.2 doesn't see on the Kindle?

Mobi 6.2 here recognizes files with .mobi, .pdb, and .prc extensions as being possible books it can display. Amazon uses the .azw extension for files they offer for the Kindle, and even though they use the MobiPocket format, MobiReader won't know they are MobiPocket files.
______
Dennis

Leep
06-24-2008, 07:35 PM
Out of curiousity, what is the extension of the files Mobi 6.2 doesn't see on the Kindle?

Mobi 6.2 here recognizes files with .mobi, .pdb, and .prc extensions as being possible books it can display. Amazon uses the .azw extension for files they offer for the Kindle, and even though they use the MobiPocket format, MobiReader won't know they are MobiPocket files.
______
Dennis

That's a good question. Surprisingly, it recognizes very few. As expected, none of the awz's, and non of my library mobipocket downloads; and less than 20% of my feedbook downloads. I've checked to make sure there are no filters turned on. The only possible thing I can think of is maybe it's books I download and emailed to the Kindle. - Sure beats me!

carld
07-03-2008, 11:55 PM
With Leep's help to steer me in the right direction I've got my problem with Clevnet ebooks sorted out. It seems that when I ran the KindlePID script on Vista it gave me back an incorrect PID. I checked with Mobipocket 6.0 on my XP laptop, and found it gave a completely different number. I got the library to change the PID, and the books convert and work fine now.

sassanik
08-05-2008, 01:30 AM
So the consensus is that it is not currently possible in a legal manner to read kindle books (ie books bought through amazon for the kindle) on another type of reader?

I know I would like to buy ebooks at the Amazon Kindle prices, but I don't want to shell out the $300 for a Kindle, when I am rather happy with my little EB 1150.


Amy

DMcCunney
08-05-2008, 01:37 AM
So the consensus is that it is not currently possible in a legal manner to read kindle books (ie books bought through amazon for the kindle) on another type of reader?
The Kindle uses the Mobipocket format. You would need to convert the Mobi file into an IMP file the EB1150 can display, and that would require breaking the DRM, whether you bought the Kindle version from Amazon or a Mobipocket version from Mobipocket or someone like Fictionwise.

So yes, it's not possible to do it legally.

(And I believe you have a Kindle before you can buy Kindle books from Amazon, because the DRM is tied to a PID unique to your reader. No reader, no PID...)
______
Dennis

nekokami
08-05-2008, 01:33 PM
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the legality of removing DRM for personal use is untested. However, there is still the problem that Amazon won't let you buy Kindle books unless you have a Kindle PID registered with them.

Monty Grue
08-08-2008, 02:16 PM
Id like to hear a response from Amazon before running the scripts. They probably wont like it, it could take away revenue, but maybe it will be tolerated.

Ive got a few DRM mobipocket titles and the option of mobipocket library books, but there are enough legitimate books currently available without having to use a conversion tool.

DMcCunney
08-08-2008, 02:31 PM
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, the legality of removing DRM for personal use is untested. However, there is still the problem that Amazon won't let you buy Kindle books unless you have a Kindle PID registered with them.
I don't believe you are mistaken. But "testing" it would require a court case to set the precedent, with attendant time time and legal expenses, and what happens if you lose?

There's a fair bit of stuff like this that probably wouldn't stand up in court, save that no one affected wishes to spend the time and money required to fight it.

In practice, if you remove the DRM on files for your own personal use, who will know or care? It's when you start sharing the unprotected files that risks appear.
______
Dennis

sassanik
08-17-2008, 07:25 AM
In practice, if you remove the DRM on files for your own personal use, who will know or care? It's when you start sharing the unprotected files that risks appear.
______
Dennis


Or worse try reselling them!

Amy

dskag
09-16-2008, 09:08 AM
Please forgive me if this has been covered. Anything I've found so far does not solve my problem. I have Igor's scripts. I've gotten as far as generating the PID of my Kindle. I've tried to run kindlefix.py in the command prompt but I get an error message that the PID is not in the right format, although it is exactly as generated by the script. Don't know where to go from here. I'm running Vista and my library lends DRM ebooks in Mobipocket format. Do the book and script files have to be in the same folder? Please direct me to step-by-step detailed instructions which include where the files are supposed to be on your hard drive, etc. Thanks.

wallcraft
09-16-2008, 10:45 AM
I've tried to run kindlefix.py in the command prompt but I get an error message that the PID is not in the right format, although it is exactly as generated by the script. If you get an error message from kindlefix, then most likely you are running python correctly (it is no response at all that you need to worry about). This error is often caused by a filename with spaces in it:

link removed on Amazon's request

The kindlefix script then thinks "Title.mobi" is the PID. Instead, use:

link removed on Amazon's request

If this isn't the problem, see How to make Igor's script work (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18310).

TheJohnNewton
09-17-2008, 05:16 PM
....I'm running Vista...

Isn't there an issue with Vista? I know Mobipocket Reader 6.0 won't recognize the Kindle if run on Vista.

dskag
09-17-2008, 07:57 PM
TheJohnNewton:

I am running Vista and Mobipocket 6.2. It recognizes my Kindle. I've run the kindlepid script and got my pid. I entered it into Mobipocket Reader where you can edit setting for reading devices.

When I run the kindlefix on protected .prc files purchased from both Mobipocket.com and Fictionwise.com, it goes through everything fine until the last line where I get an error message "The PID does not match this file" or something like that. I've tried typing it in with quotes and without. Nothing seems to work. Has this happened to anyone else? Any help would be appreciated.

DaleDe
09-17-2008, 08:13 PM
Did you register your PID on the sites in question? I don't believe MobiPocket will accept that PID. I am not sure about fictionwise. There are two different DRM servers. One will accept the PID and one won't (MobiPocket intentionally broke this). If you can register your PID then the books will work. If you failed to register and now register it then you will need to redownload the books.

Dale

wallcraft
09-17-2008, 09:58 PM
I don't believe MobiPocket will accept that PID. I am not sure about fictionwise. FictionWise will accept the PID. For the ebooks from mobipocket.com, your only option is to strip the DRM with mobidedrm.

DaleDe
09-18-2008, 02:04 PM
FictionWise will accept the PID. For the ebooks from mobipocket.com, your only option is to strip the DRM with mobidedrm.

Or request a refund since you can't use it.

Dale

dskag
09-19-2008, 12:45 PM
Did you register your PID on the sites in question? I don't believe MobiPocket will accept that PID. I am not sure about fictionwise. There are two different DRM servers. One will accept the PID and one won't (MobiPocket intentionally broke this). If you can register your PID then the books will work. If you failed to register and now register it then you will need to redownload the books.

Dale

Thanks, DaleDE. Yes, I did register my Kindle PID with Fictionwise. But still could not get the kindlefix.py to work. I will try using the quotes as WallCraft
suggest.

I could strip the DRM, but I'd rather not do that if I can get the kindlefix.py to work.

dskag
09-24-2008, 08:01 PM
FictionWise will accept the PID. For the ebooks from mobipocket.com, your only option is to strip the DRM with mobidedrm.

I got all of igor's scripts to work on my Overdrive downloaded library ebooks. Kindlefix.py generates an .azw file just fine. However, when I put on my Kindle and try to open it. I get a message that says it 'can't be opened and to contact Amazon if it was purchased there'. My Kindle PID is registered with the library. Is this something new that's happening? Is there a newer version of the scripts that addresses this? I think I have the latest version.

I tried running MobiDeDrm and it works great. So, I know my PID is correct. I don't want to have to do it this way but all I want is to read these books on my Kindle. I'm not selling or even sharing them.

Anyone else having this result?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

DaleDe
09-25-2008, 03:08 PM
Some have indicated some sort of glitch in the data base and they had to get the company to remove their registration and then they reentered it. Something about the database removing the * in the PID