http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/03/barry-joe-scott-turow.html

Point by point rebutals and commentary.
Some very compelling points, especially Suzanne White's segment near the end.

You guys! Help authors reach their potential. Stop going to bat for the big guys. It's over boys. Move on out. Don't blame Bezos. Blame history. Ebooks are the future. Young people today grew up on screens. They don't know any other way. Can you really imagine you might convince the young to return to paper? It's Farenheit 451 in reverse. We are burning the books -- not because they contain information deleterious to society, but because they are unwieldy and wasteful.

Looks like they did a pretty thorough debunking of Turow's letter. I didn't make it all the way through, but their comments did make me wonder if Scott Turow was president of the Author's Guild or the Publisher's Guild.

I nodded along to the response to Turow by David Gaughran that they linked, titled Scott Turow: Wrong About Everything (http://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2012/03/10/scott-turow-wrong-about-everything/). I especially liked this reality check:
[Turow] This was a game-changer, and not in a good way. Amazon’s predatory pricing would shield it from e-book competitors that lacked Amazon’s deep pockets.

[Gaughran] Competitors like the most valuable company in the world, Apple? Or the internet search giant, Google? (Both of whom have far deeper pockets than Amazon.)

A very, very good article. Thanks for posting a link.

Fun read. I can't help but read each "Translation: blah blah blah..." bit with a bit of snark in my inner-narrator.

"Marketing studies consistently show that readers are far more adventurous in their choice of books when in a bookstore than when shopping online. In bookstores, readers are open to trying new genres and new authors: it's by far the best way for new works to be discovered."

i don't know who the bleep these market researchers are asking. i've discovered more authors in my year of kindle ownership than i did the past 10 years of my life. damn near entire genres pretty much exist solely in the ebook realm. horror is dead at retail. science fiction is almost dead at retail. sword&sorcery was really never even given a chance at retail. the authors and genres bookstores don't carry literally fill warehouses.

"Marketing studies consistently show that readers are far more adventurous in their choice of books when in a bookstore than when shopping online. In bookstores, readers are open to trying new genres and new authors: it's by far the best way for new works to be discovered."

i don't know who the bleep these market researchers are asking. i've discovered more authors in my year of kindle ownership than i did the past 10 years of my life. damn near entire genres pretty much exist solely in the ebook realm. horror is dead at retail. science fiction is almost dead at retail. sword&sorcery was really never even given a chance at retail. the authors and genres bookstores don't carry literally fill warehouses.

So true.

I went into a large bricks and Mortar store looking for Jim C Hines books for our daughters' Christmas presents last year. The staff had NEVER heard of the author nor were his books on their order/stock database.

Konrath was certainly right in saying that most B&M stores do not carry all genres, indeed have never carried them. So how can customers ever discover new and exciting genres when many simply are not present in store to tempt them? Specialist stores exist, complete with bearded geek behind the counter, but often you feel you are wearing a plastic raincoat all the while clutching a purchase in a plain brown paper bag when you exit the store.

I agree that in the main SF is dead in retail (with Baen and Black Library the only ones seemingly available and then only in limited numbers), Pulp Fantasy seems to have bulked out that section of a bookstore. However online, I am buying and reading more SF books than I did when I read paperbacks. There is a rich indie selection available on both Smashwords and Amazon to select from.

Around two years ago I had never heard of;

Randoph Lalonde
Evan Currie
Dan Worth
David Guyton
Thomas DePrima
Valmore Daniels

And many, many others.

It is becoming evident now that the big 6 will be forced to evolve, kicking and screaming all the way.

So true.

I went into a large bricks and Mortar store looking for Jim C Hines books for our daughters' Christmas presents last year. The staff had NEVER heard of the author nor were his books on their order/stock database.

Konrath was certainly right in saying that most B&M stores do not carry all genres, indeed have never carried them. So how can customers ever discover new and exciting genres when many simply are not present in store to tempt them? Specialist stores exist, complete with bearded geek behind the counter, but often you feel you are wearing a plastic raincoat all the while clutching a purchase in a plain brown paper bag when you exit the store.

I agree that in the main SF is dead in retail (with Baen and Black Library the only ones seemingly available and then only in limited numbers), Pulp Fantasy seems to have bulked out that section of a bookstore. However online, I am buying and reading more SF books than I did when I read paperbacks. There is a rich indie selection available on both Smashwords and Amazon to select from.

Around two years ago I had never heard of;

Randoph Lalonde
Evan Currie
Dan Worth
David Guyton
Thomas DePrima
Valmore Daniels

And many, many others.

It is becoming evident now that the big 6 will be forced to evolve, kicking and screaming all the way.

I really like the books that Abaddon puts out but finding them in american bookstores is like finding a needle in a haystack. (its odd that my favorite publishers are all british:abaddon, angry robot, solaris).

my favorite fantasy author is David Dalglish. there is no reason why he isn't on bookstore shelves instead of slogging it out in the indie scene. i think his Shadowdance series gives Brent Week's Night Angel a run for its money.

D.P. Prior is writing great, literary, 'thinking man's' fantasy/sword&sorcery. no excuse for him to not be on bookstore shelves.

Evan Currie is great and he finally seems to be getting his due thanks to amazon's new publishing imprint.

BV Larson is another great indie sci-fi/fantasy author who is finally getting his due thanks to amazon publishing.

there's so many good, hard working authors that are just utterly ignored by mainstream publishers because they're writing in non-trendy genres. if my reading selections were left solely to whats on bookstore shelves i'd be hurting for new books/authors.

and when i was buying my books at bookstores i never gave space opera/military sci-fi or sword&sorcery a second look.

"Marketing studies consistently show that readers are far more adventurous in their choice of books when in a bookstore than when shopping online. In bookstores, readers are open to trying new genres and new authors: it's by far the best way for new works to be discovered."

i don't know who the bleep these market researchers are asking. i've discovered more authors in my year of kindle ownership than i did the past 10 years of my life. damn near entire genres pretty much exist solely in the ebook realm. horror is dead at retail. science fiction is almost dead at retail. sword&sorcery was really never even given a chance at retail. the authors and genres bookstores don't carry literally fill warehouses.

They must be "Marketing Stusies" done by publishers. And about as accurate as any other study done by any other "interest group" studying their own "product".
Most book stores only carry a small amount of the books that are available. Used book stores have a larger selection than retail book stores. And now you can find a larger selection of DTBs online through sites like Abebooks than you can in your local used book store.
In my experience, especially with Mobile Reads, readers of ebooks are much more likely to try other genres, new authors and to read books they would not have discovered in a retail store. I know I have.
Apache

Thanks for the link. The critique of Turow's arguments is devastating, both in your link and in the further link to David Gaughran's post. I have read some of Scott's books and enjoyed them. It is sad to see him adopt this approach.

I suspect that Scott and other well established authors may ultimately suffer from Agency Pricing of EBooks. At least one of the fears of the large publisher's has come to pass. I suspect most readers are simply not prepared to pay a paperback price for an ebook, let alone a hard cover price. I for one am not. This leaves readers with a number of choices. Some will reluctantly pay the prices sought. Others will resort to piracy, many perhaps regretting that the author will not receive anything, but feeling no such sympathy for the agency publishers. Probably the larger group will discover indie and other non-agency pricing authors. Let's face it, the variety of ebooks on Amazon alone is staggering, the categorisation and search options make it easy to find possibilities, and the prices from $0.99 make it inexpensive to sample new books and authors to replace those who continue walking with the Dinosaurs. And for those agency authors you simply must read, there is the library, or the option of waiting until the prices do come down with time. And, as above, whilst you wait there are plenty of alternate options to choose from.

I find that assertion interesting. Probably they were trying to contrast "bookstore browsing" with "internet searching" where in the former you waltz into a bookstore with a paycheck burning a hole in your pocket and in the latter you go to Amazon, search for a single title, buy and leave.

But it's silly because many people walk into bookstores for a single title, buy, and leave; and many people browse online stores for lots of titles.

Also, I continue to be frustrated that TradPubs think that everyone on earth is able-bodied, privileged, and geo-locationally ABLE to waltz into a mega-store any time they want. /side-rant

TL;DR: I doubt the veracity of this "study".

"Marketing studies consistently show that readers are far more adventurous in their choice of books when in a bookstore than when shopping online. In bookstores, readers are open to trying new genres and new authors: it's by far the best way for new works to be discovered."

i don't know who the bleep these market researchers are asking. i've discovered more authors in my year of kindle ownership than i did the past 10 years of my life. damn near entire genres pretty much exist solely in the ebook realm. horror is dead at retail. science fiction is almost dead at retail. sword&sorcery was really never even given a chance at retail. the authors and genres bookstores don't carry literally fill warehouses.

Totally agree. :thumbsup:

I find that assertion interesting. Probably they were trying to contrast "bookstore browsing" with "internet searching" where in the former you waltz into a bookstore with a paycheck burning a hole in your pocket and in the latter you go to Amazon, search for a single title, buy and leave.

But it's silly because many people walk into bookstores for a single title, buy, and leave; and many people browse online stores for lots of titles.

Also, I continue to be frustrated that TradPubs think that everyone on earth is able-bodied, privileged, and geo-locationally ABLE to waltz into a mega-store any time they want. /side-rant

TL;DR: I doubt the veracity of this "study".

I browse on amazon all the time. I'll just click around looking at different titles, read reviews, maybe do some google searching on an author. More than I've ever done at a bookstore.

I've found authors I now like that I never read or knew existed because of free eBook giveaways.

I find that assertion interesting. Probably they were trying to contrast "bookstore browsing" with "internet searching" where in the former you waltz into a bookstore with a paycheck burning a hole in your pocket and in the latter you go to Amazon, search for a single title, buy and leave.

But it's silly because many people walk into bookstores for a single title, buy, and leave; and many people browse online stores for lots of titles.

Also, I continue to be frustrated that TradPubs think that everyone on earth is able-bodied, privileged, and geo-locationally ABLE to waltz into a mega-store any time they want. /side-rant

TL;DR: I doubt the veracity of this "study".

Those are salient points. I recently visited Joseph-Beth Booksellers and browsed for a bit. It's over an hours drive from home so I don't visit often. While my sciatic nerve screams at me, I'm flipping through a book with an interesting cover. I'm not sure if I want it. I'm wishing for some reviews to pop in my head. I check the blurb on the back cover: "It's great! S'wunderful! Changed my life!" Okay, not helpful. Rather than chancing the $20, I erred on the side of caution. For me, the bookstore can no longer be the primary source for "trying new genres and new authors." Twenty years ago (when I was younger!), it certainly was.

(giggles) That was a fun read.

Enter Steve Jobs. Two years ago January, one month after B&N shipped its first Nook, Jobs introduced Apple's iPad, with its proven iTunes-and-apps agency model for digital content. Five of the largest publishers jumped on with Apple's model, even though it meant those publishers would make less money on every e-book they sold.

Joe: Translation: Authors would also make less money.

Isn't Scott Turow president of the [offensive word deleted - MODERATOR] AUTHORS GUILD?



Is a favorite of mine.

Those are salient points. I recently visited Joseph-Beth Booksellers and browsed for a bit. It's over an hours drive from home so I don't visit often. While my sciatic nerve screams at me, I'm flipping through a book with an interesting cover. I'm not sure if I want it. I'm wishing for some reviews to pop in my head. I check the blurb on the back cover: "It's great! S'wunderful! Changed my life!" Okay, not helpful. Rather than chancing the $20, I erred on the side of caution. For me, the bookstore can no longer be the primary source for "trying new genres and new authors." Twenty years ago (when I was younger!), it certainly was.

This, so much. (There's a trending SpooniesHateOutsideBecause on Twitter dealing with disabilities acting up when away from the house.)

Let's say I want to go to a nice, pretty B&N. The nearest one is about a 45 minute drive away, which is a *lot* of gentle bumpy roads get my pseudoarthrosis good and inflamed.

Then when I get there, I get to walk all over the gigantic store, carrying more and more heavy books, and standing the whole time because my B&N thinks chairs are for free-loaders and communists.

Then I get to try to stand in line with my heavy books, carry them out to the car, and drive home the 45 minute drive, while aching profusely and trying not to let my back pain interfere with my safe driving.

And all that has to be done on a Saturday, because there's no way I can make time or spoons in my schedule to do that on a work day. But what I *can* do on a work day is browse over to B&N.com and buy a dozen indie books without breaking a seat. :2thumbsup

I'm not the majority of people in America. But the minority of people with pain issues like mine isn't a particularly SMALL minority. There's a reason why back pain commercials on TV constitute like, every 4th commercial. :(

But why should the TradPubs have to think about people with disabilities? Screw them; we don't want their money. The money probably smells like BenGay anyway. :p

I find that assertion interesting. Probably they were trying to contrast "bookstore browsing" with "internet searching" where in the former you waltz into a bookstore with a paycheck burning a hole in your pocket and in the latter you go to Amazon, search for a single title, buy and leave.

But it's silly because many people walk into bookstores for a single title, buy, and leave; and many people browse online stores for lots of titles.

Also, I continue to be frustrated that TradPubs think that everyone on earth is able-bodied, privileged, and geo-locationally ABLE to waltz into a mega-store any time they want. /side-rant

TL;DR: I doubt the veracity of this "study".

I can remember, 30 or 40 years ago, driving to every place that sold books in town looking for a specific book. I would even drive to towns that were 90 miles away. The things we would do for our addictions.
Apache

Thanks for the link. Barry Eisler is a favorite of mine and this only cements my opinion of him.

I echo what others have written. In the 547 days (couldn't resist) that I've been ereading, I've at least quadrupled the amount of authors I recognise and will read books from. My wish list at Amazon incorporates genres I rarely looked at when in a physical bookstore.

I hadn't purchased a novel to read in more than ten years until I got my ereader. I went to the library instead, not so much to save money, but to not have books that I had no place to store in my home.

Now I buy probably a dozen or more novels a month. I suspect I'm not the only one.

Thanks for the link. Barry Eisler is a favorite of mine and this only cements my opinion of him.

Yeah, his books are really good.

This, so much. (There's a trending SpooniesHateOutsideBecause on Twitter dealing with disabilities acting up when away from the house.)

Let's say I want to go to a nice, pretty B&N. The nearest one is about a 45 minute drive away, which is a *lot* of gentle bumpy roads get my pseudoarthrosis good and inflamed.

Then when I get there, I get to walk all over the gigantic store, carrying more and more heavy books, and standing the whole time because my B&N thinks chairs are for free-loaders and communists.

Then I get to try to stand in line with my heavy books, carry them out to the car, and drive home the 45 minute drive, while aching profusely and trying not to let my back pain interfere with my safe driving.

And all that has to be done on a Saturday, because there's no way I can make time or spoons in my schedule to do that on a work day. But what I *can* do on a work day is browse over to B&N.com and buy a dozen indie books without breaking a seat. :2thumbsup

I'm not the majority of people in America. But the minority of people with pain issues like mine isn't a particularly SMALL minority. There's a reason why back pain commercials on TV constitute like, every 4th commercial. :(

But why should the TradPubs have to think about people with disabilities? Screw them; we don't want their money. The money probably smells like BenGay anyway. :p


Yep. In the two hours wasted going to a bookshop I could have read another couple. And the money spent doing so could have bought another!

I didn't make it all the way through, but their comments did make me wonder if Scott Turow was president of the Author's Guild or the Publisher's Guild.

My thoughts, also. :thumbsup:

Yep. In the two hours wasted going to a bookshop I could have read another couple. And the money spent doing so could have bought another!

i'm glad to see i'm not the only one who thinks that way lol. i get angry at myself for wasting time and money that could have been spent reading or buying books.

I nodded along to the response to Turow by David Gaughran that they linked, titled Scott Turow: Wrong About Everything (http://davidgaughran.wordpress.com/2012/03/10/scott-turow-wrong-about-everything/). I especially liked this reality check:

[Turow] This was a game-changer, and not in a good way. Amazon’s predatory pricing would shield it from e-book competitors that lacked Amazon’s deep pockets.

[Gaughran] Competitors like the most valuable company in the world, Apple? Or the internet search giant, Google? (Both of whom have far deeper pockets than Amazon.)

The question isn't whether Apple or Google have deeper pockets than Amazon. The question is whether they are willing to and capable of spending the money needed to compete against Amazon in what would be for Apple and Google niche product lines.

Remember that unlike Amazon, Apple and Google consistently think in terms of profit, giving return to shareholders; Bezos, unlike Apple and Google, is willing to lose scads of money and not give shareholders a return.

If we are going to name companies that could fund a competitor to Amazon, we shouldn't leave out ExxonMobil and IBM, among others. Yet I doubt these companies would be willing to spend the money needed to get into a price war regarding ebooks.

For none of the named companies -- except Amazon -- are books in any format a core business. They are peripheral businesses.

I guess, once again, I'm the outcast. First, I think the marketing surveys are accurate. They certainly reflect my habits and those of people I know. More importantly, as large as the online bookselling marketplace is, more books are still bought at b&m stores. That may be changing, but it hasn't changed yet.

Second, every naysayer (and me, too, as a non-naysayer) regarding the marketing surveys isn't buttressing the contrary view with any fact, just anecdotal evidence or personal experience. Which leads me to one of the failings in MR discussions: too many of us take as established fact that represents the views of the majority (or even a plurality) of book buyers and readers both anecdotal evidence that supports our perspective or our own personal experience -- and we become adamant that our "facts" are the only true "facts". Perhaps we are deluding ourselves.

The other thing that needs considering is what is meant by "bought," "buying," and similar terms. Have we "bought" a book that we obtained for free? And if our to-be-read pile grows geometrically, especially with free ebooks, is that an indication that we are broadening our searches or does it indicate that we simply think a book might someday interest us and so we grab it while it is free?

As for Scott Turow and the Author's Guild, I am of two minds. First, I abhor agency pricing because I think the ebooks are overpriced when I consider the limitations imposed, especially DRM. OTOH, I think in the absence of agency pricing, Amazon's competition would rapidly disappear. Apple and Google may have deep pockets but they are unwilling, historically, to run at a loss, especially in peripheral businesses. I think once Amazon effectively controls the ebook market, ebookers will be shocked by the sudden price increases as Amazon tries to change loss to profit virtually over night. There is no reason to think Amazon would act unlike any other monopolist has acted when it comes to pricing.

Finally, to point at some books that I like and say I couldn't find them in my local b&m store is a red herring argument. No intelligent consumer expects a local b&m store to carry 100% of everything. More importantly, local b&m stores have to cater to the people who buy there, not to those who simply browse and then buy online.

Conversely, not many people have time to go down to a bookshop and spend time turning pages, looking for a selection.

The dynamic is changing and certainly here in Australia, very quickly. Online purchasing take-up is growing exponentially, which is why the retail tycoons are bemoaning the fact they are not going to be able to keep ripping off an increasingly savvy consumer any more.

I have stated this before and now do so again. Locally, if I go into a Dymocks store, chances are the book will not be in stock and never will be as it is simply not on their catalogue. After the fiasco back in October last year when trying to buy books for my oldest and youngest daughters, I will NEVER buy in a bricks and mortar store again.

Rude uninformed staff with no knowledge of their area of business.

Businesses come and go and that includes models of business. Adaptation is essential to any form of evolution. The Authors Guild and their mates in the publishing industry have proved that clinging on to the old way must be at all cost. It is like they are all afraid of the future and refuse to come out into the light from those warm and safe recesses of the caves they are cowering in.

Agency pricing is simply another set of rose tinted glasses employed by the publishers so they can feel warm and fuzzy about protecting their outmoded system of distribution and loyalties. Problem is, those rose tinted glasses are heading the same way as Zaphod Beeblebrox's sunglasses....

I wonder if the owners of saddler's felt the same as they shrunk to a niche market, whilst that arrogant upstart Henry Ford introduced mass produced automobiles to the world.

"Them durned horseless carriages, just a fad I tell' ya!"

I think once Amazon effectively controls the ebook market, ebookers will be shocked by the sudden price increases as Amazon tries to change loss to profit virtually over night. There is no reason to think Amazon would act unlike any other monopolist has acted when it comes to pricing.


Apart from their past behaviour, that is.

And if they suddenly did indulge in say, 100% price rise price fixing, there's a likely precedent where they can be sued, similarly.

For Australian consumers my bet is that Amazon getting more of the market means a better deal.

Because Google is useless at selling media here.

Apple loves to double charge their already expensive prices. So do the oligopolistic price fixers - and triple charge.

Plus, this takes money away from Rupert Murdoch. :)

And if Amazon goes crazy and institutes massive price rises and Apple and Google go along then money will start to flow to independents who will then have greater opportunity to exploit without price fixing.

I don't think the online stores really have discovery sorted. A good bookshop will have a nice display of what's new and significant in your chosen area, as well as more general stuff that might catch your eye as you walk through. And then there's what you can tell by browsing the shelves.

I don't think online stores' filtering and recommending is quite as successful, yet. It might well get there, but I rarely feel like I know what the movers and shakers of my genre are.

That's nothing to do with ebooks, though. It's exactly the same buying pbooks online, and it would be the same if the books in the store were dummies that got me an ebook.

And it will get better, online.

The question isn't whether Apple or Google have deeper pockets than Amazon. The question is whether they are willing to and capable of spending the money needed to compete against Amazon in what would be for Apple and Google niche product lines.

Remember that unlike Amazon, Apple and Google consistently think in terms of profit, giving return to shareholders; Bezos, unlike Apple and Google, is willing to lose scads of money and not give shareholders a return.

If we are going to name companies that could fund a competitor to Amazon, we shouldn't leave out ExxonMobil and IBM, among others. Yet I doubt these companies would be willing to spend the money needed to get into a price war regarding ebooks.

For none of the named companies -- except Amazon -- are books in any format a core business. They are peripheral businesses.
Apple and Google are actually in the ebook market so suggesting that Amazon's deep pockets were unique is silly. How about using Sony as an example? That's who Amazon was competing with in the early days after all. ebooks weren't a core business until Amazon sunk a ton of money into promoting both the Kindle and making ebooks widely availble via their technology. Hammering Amazon for a strategy that no one else selling books or anything else was willing to risk makes no sense.

Apple and Google are actually in the ebook market so suggesting that Amazon's deep pockets were unique is silly.

Apple are in the eBook storefront market, but they are not in the eBook market in the way that Amazon and Google are. They just want to take their 30% and move on.

The Publishers are villainizing Amazon because Amazon took the time to focus on building up an e-book store that made people want to buy e-books and an e-reader.

Sony was Amazon's first real competition and the Sony bookstore sucked. Truth be told, it isn't all that great today. Amazon came on the scene and realized that the only way to sell an e-reader was to sell e-books. They asked, demanded, negotiated, with the Publishers to make the e-book available the same day as the hardback. I am guessing that the Publishers said sure because they didn't think anyone would actually buy the e-book. Amazon discounted best sellers to $9.99 because it was an attractive price point. People paid an insane amount for Kindles (I got in on the K1 after the first price cut when the Kindle was only $349) and started buying e-books. Publishers appeared to be shocked that people would pay that much for an e-reader and then actually buy the books.

Eventually BN entered the game with the Nook. By the time BN got into the game, Amazon was well established and people thought of the Kindle as the E Reader. I think the K2 had been released so there was no removable battery and memory card (both on the K1) which a small group of people jumped on. They really liked the library lending and that you could shop at multiple stores. The problem was that the BN store was not that great and the Sony store still sucked.

At some point in time the Kobo and IPad came out. By this time, e-books were outselling Hardback books and, I think, Paperbacks. Publishers were freaking out because they had no idea how to deal with e-books and their profit margin on an e-book was less then it was on a hardback book. Customers had not responded well when they tried to stagger the hardback and e-book release (I know that there are several books I didn't buy because it was not available on release date and it pissed me off that the Publisher was screwing with me).

Apple wanted to open IBooks but knew it would lose to Amazon because of Amazons price point and the size of Amazons selection and through the Publishers an illegal life preserver called Agency Publishing.

Through all of this, Amazon is still the largest e-book store and the Kindle is selling like gang busters. People on this board and other boards that I read have admitted that they buy books from Amazon for their Sony and Nooks because those books are not available in EPub and they convert them to be able to read them. This tells me that the other bookstores have had several years to build themselves up so that they are competitive with Amazon and have not been able to do so even with the Publishers colluding with Apple.

The Publishers have lost money because of this deal. The Publishers made more money per e-book when Amazon set the price and Amazon lost money on all of the best sellers. Authors lost money because the Publishers were not making as much so their royalty checks were smaller. Amazon made money because it had to sell the books at a higher price point. Amazon launched programs that have benefited Indie authors that EPub users hate, like the exclusive publish program, but which seems to have helped more then a few Indie authors.

So what is the moral of this story?

I have no clue. I know that Amazon set out to build a successful e-reader and e-book store and did. Even with the collusion between the Publishers and Apple, Amazon still has an insanely successful bookstore that is making more money now then it was before Agency Pricing and Kindles are selling well. There are some new e-readers out there but their bookstores still do not match Amazons. I have no idea what I am suppose to take away from this.

Lets face, JA Konrath is so pro Amazon that he really should have "spokesman for Amazon " on his business card.It doesn't mean that we should discount his arguments out of hand: but it does mean that we should examine his pro Amazon arguments with great care.

At some point in time the Kobo and IPad came out. By this time, e-books were outselling Hardback books and, I think, Paperbacks.

I don't think that is true now, let alone then.

I don't think that is true now, let alone then.

It is at Amazon, don't know about the rest of the world.

Lets face, JA Konrath is so pro Amazon that he really should have "spokesman for Amazon " on his business card.It doesn't mean that we should discount his arguments out of hand: but it does mean that we should examine his pro Amazon arguments with great care.

I'm not sure I'd call him "pro-Amazon" but "anti-publisher". He sure has poked a few holes in the FUD the publishers are trying to spread.

I don't think that is true now, let alone then.

This was posted in March of last year, but I doubt if hardbacks and paperbacks have made any unexpected advances

January E-book Sales Soar, Top Hardcover, Mass Market Paperback
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/financial-reporting/article/46510-january-e-book-sales-soar-top-hardcover-mass-market-paperback.html

Lets face, JA Konrath is so pro Amazon that he really should have "spokesman for Amazon " on his business card.It doesn't mean that we should discount his arguments out of hand: but it does mean that we should examine his pro Amazon arguments with great care.

I read a blog post of his that said he didn't care how you got his books, even pirating. He seems to like amazon, as an author, because it is easier to deal with than any other means.

I don't know how you can say Apple is not in the same business as Amazon with regard to e-books. They have their own hardware (iPad, iPhone) and sell books locked into their own form of DRM. To me they are absolutely a competitor on equal footing with Amazon.

Not only that but I also blame the agency model on Apple's entry to the market. If Amazon was "all that and a bag of chips" then it would not have taken Apple's market entry to change the pricing structure.

Google is not yet on equal footing but they're trying. Windows 8 and upcoming Win tablets may yet provide ANOTHER serious e-book market player. Too early to say but it seems likely to me.

Apple and Goggle do not put the same emphasis on the e-book as a profit maker as Amazon does. Amazon is clearly emphasizing the Kindle Line and e-books as a part of its business plan. Apple has the IBook store but I don't see it being emphasized the same way Amazon emphasizes the Kindle E-book store.

This is not a surprise to me, Steve Jobs did not think that enough people read to make building a dedicated e-book reader profitable so why would the company embrace the IBook store? Sony has been in the e-book industry longer then Amazon and its bookstore is still, well, laughable. BN is a bookstore and its e-book store is still lagging behind Amazons.

All I am saying is that one reason that Amazon scares the crap out of the Publishers is that Amazon has put the e-reader and e-book on display as an important part of its business plan. The other e-reader/e-book stores still have not followed Amazons suit.

So part of the reason why Amazon is a dominant player is because Amazon has focused on this particular niche industry and the others are still lagging.

Konrath and co do have an axe to grind but it is a sharp and witty one.
And it's not pro-Amazon but pro-author.
He is a lot like a recently divorced person who sees the ex- promoting themselves for sainthood; he knows better and has no problem telling everybody the "saint" has clay feet.

Now, can't we just *once* dispense with the whole "Amazon *might* do harm *someday* if they're not stopped *now*" smokescreen and focus on the *actions* of the BPHs for a while? 'Cause when the case gets to court the ruling will be on the basis of collusion and price increases, not hypothetical "evils" avoided.

BTW, does anybody know when the next election of the Publishers' Guild is?
I'm wondering if Turow will have a challenger for the role of Chief Apologist.
;)

FWIW, publishing consultant Mike Shatzkin agrees with Turow- and believes that Amazon will end up squeezing authors just as it squeezed publishers. He bases his belief on the prior actions of Amazon.

Gotta love tea leaf readers predicting other people's actions.
Not that any of it matters what with the Maya Apocalypse coming any day now. ;)
Here, try this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/11/would-you-prefer-an-apple-monopoly-or-an-amazon-one/


What I think is being missed here is the latest thinking in monopolies, their creation and maintenance. Bryan Caplan:

“Three decades ago, a model came along to challenge this mindset: the contestable market model. In the contestable market model, a single firm often behaves exactly like a perfectly competitive firm. Why? Because of potential competition. Sure, your firm may be the sole supplier of a good right now. But if you raise your price above the competitive level, all sorts of competitors might suddenly spring up. To prevent this from happening, you need to keep your prices so low than no potential competitor bothers to become an actual competitor.


The moment Amazon even *thinks* of gouging customers, a dozen sharks will jump into the game. Their entire business is about selling cheap ebooks; the moment they stop being the place for cheap ebooks, they stop having an ebook business.
(Look at Paypal's little reversal on censorship. The moment they annoyed consumers, accounts started closing in droves.)

Welcome to the 21st century; it is *nothing* like the 19th.

Yeah, his books are really good.

The problem is he's taken his latest John Rain book and made it unavailable for people who have previously read the series in ePub. That to me is not a nice thing to do for people who like the series and read eBooks in ePub.

Welcome to the 21st century; it is *nothing* like the 19th.

Every company that has forgotten or ignored that has died a horrible death or is on their way to doing so.

Kodak
Borders
Blockbuster (and a whole variety of other video stores)

Gotta love tea leaf readers predicting other people's actions.
Not that any of it matters what with the Maya Apocalypse coming any day now. ;)
Here, try this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/11/would-you-prefer-an-apple-monopoly-or-an-amazon-one/



The moment Amazon even *thinks* of gouging customers, a dozen sharks will jump into the game. Their entire business is about selling cheap ebooks; the moment they stop being the place for cheap ebooks, they stop having an ebook business.
(Look at Paypal's little reversal on censorship. The moment they annoyed consumers, accounts started closing in droves.)

Welcome to the 21st century; it is *nothing* like the 19th.

Hey, if you are right on that, then why worry about publisher "price fixing" cartels? That's SOO 19th century! Obviously, there's no need for government intervention there, right? And no need for an open Internet policy,either, because we can trust Comcast and the cable companies not to throttle the competition. As for those consumer-friendly mobile carriers....

The problem is hes taken his latest John Rain book and made it unavailable for people who have previously read the series in ePub. That to me is not a nice thing to do for people who like the series and read eBooks in ePub.

Come on Jon. Nothing is preventing you from purchasing the books from Amazon, removing DRM and converting the book with Calibre. And even if you didn't want to go through that exercise, there's alway Kindle for PC that's freely available to all OSes, except Linux (damn that evil corporation).

Come on Jon. Nothing is preventing you from purchasing the books from Amazon, removing DRM and converting the book with Calibre. And even if you didn't want to go through that exercise, there's alway Kindle for PC that's freely available to all OSes, except Linux (damn that evil corporation).

I wasn't talking about myself. There are a lot of people out there who do read eBooks who can't buy from Amazon and get the eBook over to their ePub capable reader. Those people cannot continue the series because Barry has taken it away from them.

I wasn't talking about myself. There are a lot of people out there who do read eBooks who can't buy from Amazon and get the eBook over to their ePub capable reader. Those people cannot continue the series because Barry has taken it away from them.

Seriously Jon. Reread my last sentence. *Nothing* is preventing those other people (not you) from downloading and installing Kindle for PC/Kindle for iPad/Kindle for Mac/Kindle for Android/whatever Kindle for X that's out there, purchasing the books from Amazon and continue reading. Inconvenience? Yes probably. Cannot continue? Wrong.

Are you saying that an author can't make decisions about their property without checking with the reader base first?

No he hasn't. They can just continue the series on their pc or mac or ipad or smartphone or tablet.

No he hasn't. They can just continue the series on their pc or mac or ipad or smartphone or tablet.

That doesn't always work. That's not the reason people chose the reader they have. They didn't choose it to then read a different format on a different device.

Hey, if you are right on that, then why worry about publisher "price fixing" cartels? That's SOO 19th century! Obviously, there's no need for government intervention there, right? And no need for an open Internet policy,either, because we can trust Comcast and the cable companies not to throttle the competition. As for those consumer-friendly mobile carriers....

Because, price gouging by one player is not necessarily illegal unless there is an abuse of a dominant position. If Amazon starts raising prices, the response would be competition.

Price fixing (agreeing on pricing by competitors) is illegal always and should be punished under the law because it prevents competition from working.

I read a blog post of his that said he didn't care how you got his books, even pirating. He seems to like amazon, as an author, because it is easier to deal with than any other means.

Konrath's really big about "Just read some ebooks, okay?" Not necessarily his, and not necessarily from legit sources... he's aware that authors do best when they have a huge set of reader-fans, and that reader-fans have always included teenagers, broke college students, graveyard-shift waitresses, and grandfathers in hospitals, who don't have the money to buy new books--but if they read & love an author, they might buy the next book by that author, and they'll otherwise tell people, and some of those will buy books.

Konrath understands that authors need to encourage *readers*, not customers; they're overlapping fields, and an author needs both long-term... but readers will create customers, and it doesn't work the other way around. Readers who enjoy an author will become multiple future customers. Customers who didn't care for the book won't--especially if they felt cheated on the price. People who got the book for free and didn't like it might tell a friend, "it's not to my taste, but maybe you'll enjoy it;" people who payed $13.99 and found it flat & boring will tell their friends "it's a rip-off; don't bother."

Because, price gouging by one player is not necessarily illegal unless there is an abuse of a dominant position. If Amazon starts raising prices, the response would be competition.

Price fixing (agreeing on pricing by competitors) is illegal always and should be punished under the law because it prevents competition from working.

+1
Specifically, it prevents competition among the *conspirators*.
Among the "coincidences" that launched with the Price Fix Cartel is the fact that *all* ebooks moved to exactly the same price range. And that the minimum price set by the price-fix six just happened to be a 30% increase over the Amazon pricing that so offended them.
In cartel cases, those "coincidences" are called smoking guns.

Here's an example of a busted cartel:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/45c6fb66-2197-11e1-a19f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1p2oCOGEg
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203413304577086251676539124.html

Pretty much the same practices, no?
A cartel is a cartel is a cartel whether it fixes prices for oil, soap, or digital files.


Price differences between detergents were generally aligned, although two brands were allowed to be slightly more expensive. The cartel also co-ordinated promotion policies.

The problem is he's taken his latest John Rain book and made it unavailable for people who have previously read the series in ePub. That to me is not a nice thing to do for people who like the series and read eBooks in ePub.

Depending how you look at it yes. However, it is DRM free, so that should be supported - and makes it trivial to convert to whatever you want.

I wasn't talking about myself. There are a lot of people out there who do read eBooks who can't buy from Amazon and get the eBook over to their ePub capable reader. Those people cannot continue the series because Barry has taken it away from them.

There can't be many that can't download a file from a website, surely? Ok, a few people will be too dumb to do that - but some of them can be shown.

I guess, once again, I'm the outcast. First, I think the marketing surveys are accurate. They certainly reflect my habits and those of people I know. More importantly, as large as the online bookselling marketplace is, more books are still bought at b&m stores. That may be changing, but it hasn't changed yet.

Second, every naysayer (and me, too, as a non-naysayer) regarding the marketing surveys isn't buttressing the contrary view with any fact, just anecdotal evidence or personal experience. Which leads me to one of the failings in MR discussions: too many of us take as established fact that represents the views of the majority (or even a plurality) of book buyers and readers both anecdotal evidence that supports our perspective or our own personal experience -- and we become adamant that our "facts" are the only true "facts". Perhaps we are deluding ourselves.

Well that is quite true. For me the difference between how adventurous I am online as opposed to in a bookstore could be characterised with words such as 'staggering'. So it's probably natural for me not to be able to see any veracity in a mentioned market survey that says otherwise.

But of course, my case is also different because I'm in Australia. The cost of books in bookstores actually prohibits experimentation for me. Whereas the noticeably more friendly costing in online purchasing - whether for physical books or ebooks - encourages the opposite. The only time I find that a b&m bookstore encourages any kind of wild purchasing is at the bargain table, where you can pick up ludicrously cheap novels that the store is trying to get rid of.

My experience in b&m stores is that I tend to limit my perusing to my favourite genre(s) because at that price I don't want to take too many risks. Then I look over the bargain table to see if any pops out at $5 that I can take a punt on. Alot of that changed when I realised I could purchase from Book Depository for a third of the price and I could explore more widely knowing that I wasn't going to waste any money in the bookstore anyway, but that was a relatively recent thing.

Well that is quite true. For me the difference between how adventurous I am online as opposed to in a bookstore could be characterised with words such as 'staggering'. So it's probably natural for me not to be able to see any veracity in a mentioned market survey that says otherwise.

As someone who works with ebooks and ereaders every day, I have an extensive "marketing study" of personal experience to fall back on. Of the thousands of people I've talked to or helped, a great majority read MORE now that they have ebooks, and are more willing to try new authors (especially free ones and classics) because it is not cost-prohibitive. Also looking at the rankings of non-popular authors that shoot up charts in ebook formats is a good indicator that people are finding titles okay.

But I don't think one is better than the other. I personally like going and looking through the books myself, but it's not hard to do an Internet search and browse that way, either. I would say neither holds a statistical advantage over the other.

That doesn't always work. That's not the reason people chose the reader they have. They didn't choose it to then read a different format on a different device.

It's still a matter of inconvenience, though.

There can't be many that can't download a file from a website, surely? Ok, a few people will be too dumb to do that - but some of them can be shown.

Amazon won't let me download an ebook from its website unless I either have a registered Kindle or I have Amazon software installed on my computer. I don't own a Kindle and I do not want to install Amazon software on my PC. I can't verify that installing such software won't permit Amazon to rummage through my personal data when it wants or cause other problems (perhaps a conflict with software that I regularly use). If Amazon simply wants to sell me ebooks, it could make it so that I could buy the ebooks and download from Amazon just as I can from Kobo and Barnes & Noble. I don't have any B&N apps or Kobo apps on my computer but am able to buy and download ebooks from them.

If Amazon simply wants to sell me ebooks, it could make it so that I could buy the ebooks and download from Amazon just as I can from Kobo and Barnes & Noble. I don't have any B&N apps or Kobo apps on my computer but am able to buy and download ebooks from them.

Is there a way to download a Kobo ebook without either the Kobo app or ADE?

Amazon won't let me download an ebook from its website unless I either have a registered Kindle or I have Amazon software installed on my computer. I don't own a Kindle and I do not want to install Amazon software on my PC. I can't verify that installing such software won't permit Amazon to rummage through my personal data when it wants or cause other problems (perhaps a conflict with software that I regularly use). If Amazon simply wants to sell me ebooks, it could make it so that I could buy the ebooks and download from Amazon just as I can from Kobo and Barnes & Noble. I don't have any B&N apps or Kobo apps on my computer but am able to buy and download ebooks from them.

And BN and Kobo and Sony could sell me Mobi books. Guess what, they don't. When the industry standard becomes sell both formats, I will join on the Amazon is being mean band wagon. Since none of the big e-book stores are selling both formats, I am going to yawn every time I see this argument.

Kindle users are lucky, Amazon has the largest e-book store in the market. I have no idea why BN, Kobo, and Sony do not carry all of the same books (exclusives aside.) That is their loss. Don't blame Amazon for having a larger inventory and try and demand that Amazon sell books as EPub and Mobi. BN, Kobo, and Sony should get off their butts and stock more titles, it is not as if there is a warehouse that they have to fill up.

If you ask me (and no one did) Amazon lowered pricing because they knew it would sell more books. They were in the business for year and they know how many books were selling used--at that under 10 and under 5 sweet spot. They were responding to market dynamics not necessarily putting downward pressure on prices because they thought it was fun. It happened to hurt the competition, which was a double-bonus for them, but the fact is, lowering prices sold more books--and it brought some readers (myself included) back into buying new books instead of used.

Konrath loves to be in the middle of controversy. I'm sometimes surprised he wasn't a lawyer. :>)

Depending how you look at it yes. However, it is DRM free, so that should be supported - and makes it trivial to convert to whatever you want.

Not everyone converts. They just want it in the format they read. How often does this have to be said? People on MR can find out where to go to learn to strip DRM/format shift. But a lot of people aren't on MR. They don't know they can do it and they don't do it. Some just don't want to do it. So please don't go on about how easy it is to do as most people don't do it. So for them, it's locked behind the wall of a different format.

There can't be many that can't download a file from a website, surely? Ok, a few people will be too dumb to do that - but some of them can be shown.

Show me how to download a Kindle eBook from Amazon to a computer without Kindle installed.

Is there a way to download a Kobo ebook without either the Kobo app or ADE?

an ePub eBook with DRM needs some software such as ADE to deal with the ACSM file.

I've been able to download DRM free ePub without needing any software other then a web browser. Can DRM free Kindle eBooks be downloaded without having to have a Kindle or one of the Kindle apps?

Show me how to download a Kindle eBook from Amazon to a computer without Kindle installed.

I face a similar problem too. I can't get the toothpaste onto my toothbrush without squeezing the toothpaste container. If only there was a solution that didn't involve something as demeaning as having to swallow my pride and squeeze on that container. :chinscratch:

Paranoid are you? What DO you have installed on your computer? I've got more programs than I can shake a stick at. Adobe, Audible, Calibre, Cannon Camera software, Dell software, Dropbox, HR block Tax program, HP software, iTunes, Java, KindlePC, Winzip and on and on.
Without downloaded software my computer would be a great doorstop. Why be paranoid just about Amazon and not all the other stuff you download and install?

Jon, you're building strawmen.

I can't download B&N ebooks without a Nook or application.
I can't download Sony ebooks without a Sony ereader (or application?).

Anybody who spends anytime on this forum quickly understands your utter dislike for all things Amazon, but reality is actually very different.

Jon, you're building strawmen.

I can't download B&N ebooks without a Nook or application.

Whoops, not quite true. You can absolutely download B&N books right from their site without a nook program. :)

Theoretically, you could then use a simple python script to unlock the books. If one was into that sort of thing. And if you're not, you can still side-load them to something like Aldiko and read on the app.

Whoops, not quite true. You can absolutely download B&N books right from their site without a nook program. :)

Quite right. I do it regularly and have no B&N application on my computer.

Whoops, not quite true. You can absolutely download B&N books right from their site without a nook program. :)

Theoretically, you could then use a simple python script to unlock the books. If one was into that sort of thing. And if you're not, you can still side-load them to something like Aldiko and read on the app.

Ok. Point taken. Don't know much about B&N and the Nook

an ePub eBook with DRM needs some software such as ADE to deal with the ACSM file.

I've been able to download DRM free ePub without needing any software other then a web browser. Can DRM free Kindle eBooks be downloaded without having to have a Kindle or one of the Kindle apps?

It was a genuine question. I hold no brief for Amazon. I have both a Kindle and a Kobo and various PCs and an Android phone.

Whenever I've bought DRM-ed ebooks from Kobo I've needed to use an app. I've never tried to download a DRM-free ebook from there - mostly because I think it's a harder site to use and most of my DRM-free stuff comes from Project Gutenberg.

BTW my PCs dual-boot but I only use Windows when I absolutely have to, preferring Linux but I don't check the software I install in the way rhadin suggests even though I could.

The B&N flavor of DRM does not require any app to deal with the ascm. You can just download the ePub and open it with an app or device that uses Adobe RMSDK and implements its API correctly (pretty much all current gen apps and devices except Sony Reader at this point). I wish that more vendors used this DRM flavor (the friendliest on the planet unless you count watermarking), but I guess they assume everyone is used to the inconvenience of using ADE and any change would cost them money.

DRM free epubs will not involve an ascm file and can be downloaded directly as well from any of the stores (Kobo, Google etc.).

With Amazon even DRM free books require a Kindle or Kindle app registered to your account to download. You don't actually need to have a Kindle in hand to download DRM free books, registration is sufficient. This is only an issue if you want to read with non Amazon reading system, or just want to convert to something else. Even then, not much of an issue for most people. And if the goal is conversion, just about all of that content is available elsewhere in the desired format.

You cannot read a DRMed BN book on a Sony or a Kobo. What percentage of people do you think own a Pocketbook, Onyx, or other smaller e-reader? I am guessing that number is pretty slim. Sony, Kobo, and Nook are the mainstream EPUB readers. If BN e-books cannot be read on 2 of the 3 mainstream readers then BN has done a nice job of playing like Amazon.

This is even worse since the Nook is still only sold in the US. People living outside of the US cannot buy books from BN for their Sonys and Kobos and smaller market devices. If they get around that barrier, they still cannot read BN books on their devices because of the DRM.

So the two largest players in the US market have a DRM that can only be read on their devices. Exactly how is BN better then Amazon?

Whoops, not quite true. You can absolutely download B&N books right from their site without a nook program. :)

Theoretically, you could then use a simple python script to unlock the books. If one was into that sort of thing. And if you're not, you can still side-load them to something like Aldiko and read on the app.

I tried getting a B&N book without a Nook program. It did not work. It was a book that shouldn't have had DRM and I still couldn't get it to work. This was when Nook first came out. Maybe it has improved, but I haven't bothered to try.

Really. All the vendors try to lock their customers in. It's not as though one vendor is better than another in that aspect. Sure Amazon has a proprietary format, but so does Nook in its own way since they don't use the same DRM as Sony and so on.

but so does Nook in its own way since they don't use the same DRM as Sony and so on.

Actually, the nook does use the same DRM as Sony, Kobo and so on. The nook understands B&N's DRM & Adept DRM.

Joe: Translation: Jeff Bezos's left foot is smarter than everyone at the Big 6 combined, and his right foot has more balls then all of publishing combined.

...more balls then all of publishing...

This error is a pet peeve, but it was made by a highly regarded author, so aspiring authors can take heart, as even the big boys sometimes blow it.

AFAIK:

The Nook hardware can read more books than any other reader, as it can read the B&N DRM and Adobe DRM.

The Sony/Kobo hardware can't read B&N DRM but that was a decision that either they or Adobe made and one that B&N did not expect.

The B&N DRM was intended to be less hassle than the other DRM. Unlike Adobe, the DRM doesn't have to be cleared via an internet connection -- it's a simple lock to your credit card number. It was supposed to be one step away from watermarking, and simple. And before the journeyman from space, it was the easiest DRM to automatedly strip.

Plus, yes, you can download directly from their site with no program needed, so the books could be easily gotten no matter what OS you were running.

Now... in practice, reasonable people can disagree about how this all turned out. But I do believe that B&N was trying to make a non-locking-you-into-a-store DRM that they honestly believed would be implemented by other eReader manufacturers. They were fairly open about the DRM and how to unlock it, and at least a few people openly speculated that B&N was being deliberately wink-wink-nudge-nudge about the unlocking tools.

And since I do care about what's installed on my computer, I appreciate being able to download directly from the site, rather than having to go through Kindle 4 PC, Adobe Digital Editions, Sony Reader, etc.

Your Mileage May Vary. :)

The Nook hardware can read more books than any other reader, as it can read the B&N DRM and Adobe DRM.
True. (the original nook could do eReader books too IIRC).


The Sony/Kobo hardware can't read B&N DRM but that was a decision that either they or Adobe made and one that B&N did not expect.
It's Sony & Kobo's choice to not enable support for B&N style Adobe DRM.


And since I do care about what's installed on my computer, I appreciate being able to download directly from the site, rather than having to go through Kindle 4 PC, Adobe Digital Editions, Sony Reader, etc.
You don't need K4PC to download Kindle books to a PC (unless you want to read them in K4PC).

You don't need K4PC to download Kindle books to a PC (unless you want to read them in K4PC).

Very true, the Cloud Reader downloads books without a program. Going to https://read.amazon.com/ will allow you to download books and read them without a web connection. Which folder contains the books from Cloud Reader? I haven't discovered it.

If a Kindle book is DRM free you can download the file and open it with whatever program you want - Calibre for example.

Same thing of course works with DRMed books with appropriate tools.

All hail the apprentice. :)

I don't have a Kobo Touch, but asked about it on that forum awhile back and someone there confirmed it could open a B&N ebook with DRM (after supplying the proper credentials). Likely not so with previous Kobo ereaders. So if that is accurate, Sony is really the last holdout.

And of course there are a number of apps for iOS and Android that will also open books with the B&N DRM flavor (and again it is not proprietary to B&N).

But here we are off topic again. Discussion of DRM never gets old, does it? Years from now, when DRM is finally gone, oh the stories we will tell our grandchildren...

You don't need K4PC to download Kindle books to a PC (unless you want to read them in K4PC).

This is not my experience. I get a message telling me that I need to either register my Kindle or install K4PC.

This is not my experience. I get a message telling me that I need to either register my Kindle or install K4PC.

That's right; you need a 'Kindle' registered (which can be either a physical Kindle or one of the Kindle4xxx programs) to be able to download Amazon books.

I believe Sony and Kobo have decided not to add the BN DRM to their devices.

I think that BN realized that they could safely open up their device to all EPub DRMs and that they would be fine because most people would buy books from BN. For all of our chatter I have a feeling that most people buy their books from the store associated with that e-reader because most people do not take the time to shop outside of their eco system.

I do not believe that Kobo was out when the Nook was announced, I think it followed quickly, so all BN was doing was opening its e-reader to Sony which has the least successful bookstore.

I think that BN realized that they could safely open up their device to all EPub DRMs and that they would be fine because most people would buy books from BN.

A safe assumption in the world of the Price Fix Six because if you have a Nook you'll *know* nobody is allowed to sell the ebooks any cheaper.

At that point it becomes a matter of catalog size which is why B&N actively pursues exclusive content for the Nooks and throws hysterical tantrums whenever somebody else gets *any* exclusive content.

So their walled garden is technically open but in practice it remains closed to any significant competition without the help of the guy from Melmac.

I don't have a Kobo Touch, but asked about it on that forum awhile back and someone there confirmed it could open a B&N ebook with DRM (after supplying the proper credentials). Likely not so with previous Kobo ereaders. So if that is accurate, Sony is really the last holdout.

...
Could you provide a link?

Browsing through this thread:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139139

it looks like people are saying in theory you should be able to, but in practice, you can't (except for the last post). From what I can see, no one has been able to successfully open a B&N DRM ePub on a kobo.

I just tried. I downloaded a free ePub from B&N (using the B&N PC software), and sideloaded it to my Kobo Touch. On my Kobo Touch, there is no cover for the, and when I try to open the book, I get an error message.

Could you provide a link?

Browsing through this thread:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139139

it looks like people are saying in theory you should be able to, but in practice, you can't (except for the last post). From what I can see, no one has been able to successfully open a B&N DRM ePub on a kobo.

I just tried. I downloaded a free ePub from B&N (using the B&N PC software), and sideloaded it to my Kobo Touch. On my Kobo Touch, there is no cover for the, and when I try to open the book, I get an error message.

THis is what happens to me when I download from B&N (and using the B&N app, I cannot open regular epub books already residing on my computer.)

http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/03/barry-joe-scott-turow.html

Point by point rebutals and commentary.
Some very compelling points, especially Suzanne White's segment near the end.

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Whether or not such laws make sense in today's world of big publishers and the internet is open for debate, of course. All I am trying to say is that it's not as clear-cut as it may look. And while I am not a fan of big publishing, I personally don't trust that Apple & Amazon have only the good of the consumer in mind. They both don't sell books out of love for the medium.

Matt

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Does this also apply to the second-hand book market, out of curiosity?

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Whether or not such laws make sense in today's world of big publishers and the internet is open for debate, of course. All I am trying to say is that it's not as clear-cut as it may look. And while I am not a fan of big publishing, I personally don't trust that Apple & Amazon have only the good of the consumer in mind. They both don't sell books out of love for the medium.

Matt

Yes, and with the "Buchpreisbindung" you pay a lot more than you should. If European consumers are generally happy with that, I don't know. I would like to buy some German books, occasionally. But every time I see the prices I think "forget it, I will read the English translation or I won't buy the book at all". So I only buy German books to use up some old gift coupons someone gave me.

So the real question is, should book buyers be squeezed to keep small bookstores alive?

Does this also apply to the second-hand book market, out of curiosity?

No, it doesn't (at least not in the Netherlands).

Here in Austria (and in Germany, Greece, Italy, Holland and France as well; and various other European countries), we have what is called "Buchpreisbindung" in German, which means that no one, not Amazon, not bookstores, no one is allowed to sell a book for anything other than the list price set by the publisher. This system has been in place since 1888 in Germany, for example.

Which doesn't automatically make it right, but at least shows that there is a valid argument that can be made along the lines of what Turow is saying -- the market isn't everything and even in the 19th century people realised that books are something that benefits from special proctection.

Whether or not such laws make sense in today's world of big publishers and the internet is open for debate, of course. All I am trying to say is that it's not as clear-cut as it may look. And while I am not a fan of big publishing, I personally don't trust that Apple & Amazon have only the good of the consumer in mind. They both don't sell books out of love for the medium.

Matt

What's going on with Agency pricing isn't quite the same thing since it applies only to digital books and not paper books as well.


As far as Apple & Amazon go (or B&N or Kobo or Sony for that matter) they have the best interests of their business in mind above anything else of course.

The difference is in Germany, and other countries, it is the law of the land. In the US, the practice violates the law of the land.

The question is not whether it is a valid way to price books. The question is how did they reach the decision to price books and did that process violate the law in the US?

The answer is the Publishers and Apple violated the law in the US. People have been arguing that from day one and it sure looks like DOJ has the ability to make a solid legal case against Apple and the Publishers.

The answer is the Publishers and Apple violated the law in the US. People have been arguing that from day one and it sure looks like DOJ has the ability to make a solid legal case against Apple and the Publishers.

+1
And the euro cartel busters have their own issues with the Price Fixers so it seems there isn't much parallel in *their* eyes either. Probably because when it comes to ebooks there are no small local players to be "protected" at the expense of consumers; it's all about giant multinationals ripping off consumers.
Or maybe the euro cartel busters don't think 19th century rules are a good fit for the 21st century and we're looking at the first steps at dismantling an obsolete protectionist framework.
It's been a while since Bismarck, after all.

Yes, and with the "Buchpreisbindung" you pay a lot more than you should. If European consumers are generally happy with that, I don't know. I would like to buy some German books, occasionally. But every time I see the prices I think "forget it, I will read the English translation or I won't buy the book at all". So I only buy German books to use up some old gift coupons someone gave me.

So the real question is, should book buyers be squeezed to keep small bookstores alive?


So how does that work with ebooks? Mine sell in Germany and I think the price is a direct conversion from the dollar. I set the prices and I think that carries over--but is a tax added to it? Or do you mean that only German produced books have this Buchpreisbindung?

Very curious.

Okay, sounds like Kobo still hasn't joined the B&N party and that the report I saw which said that it worked was in error.

I have never understood the thinking involved in deciding not toimplement the workflow to allow B&N books to be side-loaded. It will always be easier to get content from Kobo on a Kobo device, or from Sony on a Sony device. They should do everything possible to get people to get one of their devices, it will almost certainly result in some book sales as well, especially since there is so little price competition, thanks to agency pricing.

But if people can't take their existing content with them, it presents a barrier to B&N customers considering a switch to Kobo or Sony, whereas there aren't any going the other direction. And these artificial incompatibilities makes Kindle DRM seem friendly by comparison, when it really isn't.

Adobe Digital Editions 1.8 Preview will open B&N books, but doesn't include any device support. When Adobe adds device support, it may at last be possible to use it to side-load B&N content on more devices.

Okay, sounds like Kobo still hasn't joined the B&N party and that the report I saw which said that it worked was in error.

I have never understood the thinking involved in deciding not toimplement the workflow to allow B&N books to be side-loaded. It will always be easier to get content from Kobo on a Kobo device, or from Sony on a Sony device. They should do everything possible to get people to get one of their devices, it will almost certainly result in some book sales as well, especially since there is so little price competition, thanks to agency pricing.

But if people can't take their existing content with them, it presents a barrier to B&N customers considering a switch to Kobo or Sony, whereas there aren't any going the other direction. And these artificial incompatibilities makes Kindle DRM seem friendly by comparison, when it really isn't.

Adobe Digital Editions 1.8 Preview will open B&N books, but doesn't include any device support. When Adobe adds device support, it may at last be possible to use it to side-load B&N content on more devices.

Companies always try proprietary FIRST. Apple is a huge example. I used to work for Compaq. For years they had a proprietary keyboard for their PCs. So if you wanted a different one or needed a new one...

Eventually that nonsense has to go away, but it never stops companies from trying it.

Companies always try proprietary FIRST. Apple is a huge example. I used to work for Compaq. For years they had a proprietary keyboard for their PCs. So if you wanted a different one or needed a new one...

Eventually that nonsense has to go away, but it never stops companies from trying it.

Mostly because it works often enough that trying proprietary is a good gamble; when it pays off, it pays off big. When it doesn't, they go "open" and get to demonize those who tried proprietary and made it pay off.
It's a win-almost win proposition.

So how does that work with ebooks? Mine sell in Germany and I think the price is a direct conversion from the dollar. I set the prices and I think that carries over--but is a tax added to it? Or do you mean that only German produced books have this Buchpreisbindung?

Very curious.

I am an expat who left Germany long, long ago, so others will be able to give you more details about this. As I understand a publisher sets the price when the book first comes out. And, for a period of time, nobody is allowed to give a discount. The price, for ebooks too, includes the 19% VAT (that was the latest figure I know of, if they haven't raised it again).

So my guess is, for you books it is the same, your publisher/agent sets the price the first time one of yours comes to market. And, as far as I know, the Buchpreisbindung works the same for foreign language books. Should be easy for you to check on your books and see how much they charge in Europe.

I am an expat who left Germany long, long ago, so others will be able to give you more details about this. As I understand a publisher sets the price when the book first comes out. And, for a period of time, nobody is allowed to give a discount. The price, for ebooks too, includes the 19% VAT (that was the latest figure I know of, if they haven't raised it again).

So my guess is, for you books it is the same, your publisher/agent sets the price the first time one of yours comes to market. And, as far as I know, the Buchpreisbindung works the same for foreign language books. Should be easy for you to check on your books and see how much they charge in Europe.

Ah, then I am seeing the right price, but I think it is before the 19 percent (or 21 now?) I have to be logged out of the US account to see the foreign prices and sometimes based on IP they don't show up. Or based on some other mysterious factor of the internet or Amazon. Sometimes the only way I can see the price is to go to the forums there and use the "product link." That will usually show the price.

Thanks.

No, all prices shown include tax. The US actually seems to be an exception around the world that prices shown are pre-tax.

Perhaps they have priced your books very reasonably. They can do that, of course.

Does this also apply to the second-hand book market, out of curiosity?

No, it does not.

It doesn't apply to clearly marked faulty books either (books with some sort of manufacturing error, e.g. slightly different margins etc). Which led to one bookseller in the 90s to regularly mark perfectly fine books as faulty so they could be sold at a discount.

So how does that work with ebooks? Mine sell in Germany and I think the price is a direct conversion from the dollar. I set the prices and I think that carries over--but is a tax added to it? Or do you mean that only German produced books have this Buchpreisbindung?

It's the same for ebooks, though books by foreign publishers do not fall under the Buchpreisbindung (only if they're to be sold mainly in Germany or Austria). How exactly the law makes that distinction, I do not know.

BTW, something counts as a book as long as its main function is book-like, i.e. language courses with enclosed CDs or software, to name one example, are considered books and thus fall under Buchpreisbindung.

[QUOTE=HansTWN;2007301And, as far as I know, the Buchpreisbindung works the same for foreign language books.[/QUOTE]

This is not exactly true. While the language is irrelevant in theory, imported books do not fall under the "Buchpreisbindung". While technically true that German publishers enjoy Buchpreisbindung for their books in Austria and vice versa (an import, no doubt), US and UK books (among others) can be priced freely. I am sure the law has a perfectly fine mechanism for this.

Matt

Thanks, Matt. That answers the question nicely.

It's a shame that books are that expensive (and have such a high tax) when produced in country. Makes no sense. I understand Australia works the same way and they aren't happy about the Kindle because residents there are starting to be able to get some very coveted books for lower prices. Bookdepository was already cutting into the local market (which is ridiculously expensive) and now they have ebooks. As a reader, I'd sure be happy about it!

The US actually seems to be an exception around the world that prices shown are pre-tax.


The US is a federated republic with around 5000 different tax regimes, yet advertising is usually national. (Or at least regional.) Even small local chains usually span multiple sales tax zones. It is not uncommon in some areas for sales taxes to be composites of a state, county, and city tax so a move of just a few miles can result in a very different tax burden.

Advertising the unburdened price also helps separate the intrinsic price of the product from the tax burden so citizens are always aware of the cost of statism. (TINSTAAFL!) Transparency is a good tool against corruption.

Different cultures, different social contracts.