View Full Version : The Cult of Kindle? Are we there yet?


TadW
12-07-2007, 03:41 PM
I know we've talked quite a lot about the Amazon Kindle lately, but does this already make us members of a cult? Adrian Kingsley-Hughes of ZDNet thinks so (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1023), and he takes it with a pinch of salt of what we Kindle fans have to say about our beloved device.

More interestingly, he added these two quotes that may be worth discussing:

When someone buys a book, they are also buying the right to resell that book, to loan it out, or to even give it away if they want. Everyone understands this.

Jeff Bezos, Open letter to Author's Guild (http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/1291), 2002

You may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content. In addition, you may not, and you will not encourage, assist or authorize any other person to, bypass, modify, defeat or circumvent security features that protect the Digital Content.

Amazon, Kindle Terms of Service (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200144530), 2007

jasonkchapman
12-07-2007, 03:50 PM
I know we've talked quite a lot about the Amazon Kindle lately, but does this already make us members of a cult? Adrian Kingsley-Hughes of ZDNet thinks so (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1023), and he takes it with a pinch of salt of what we Kindle fans have to say about our beloved device.

More interestingly, he added these two quotes that may be worth discussing:

Does anyone really believe that Amazon has a any choice but to include that in the TOS? Without publisher support, the whole deal is down the tubes. Also, when the Kindle DRM is cracked, they have to be able to make the case that they did everything in their power to avoid it, otherwise someone's legal team will go after them for liability.

TallMomof2
12-07-2007, 04:02 PM
Ummm, I can resell, loan out, or give away my CDs but not my MP3s. That's how I see pbooks vs. ebooks.

Nate the great
12-07-2007, 04:08 PM
Ummm, I can resell, loan out, or give away my CDs but not my MP3s. That's how I see pbooks vs. ebooks.

If you've ripped a backup copy of the CD to your computer before you lend it, how is it different from lending an MP3?

secretsubscribe
12-07-2007, 04:30 PM
If you've ripped a backup copy of the CD to your computer before you lend it, how is it different from lending an MP3?

The speed at which a "lent" mp3 can end up being lent to people around the world simultaneously.

Alisa
12-07-2007, 04:31 PM
I was just "lending" it to 20,000 of my closest friends. Honest.

nekokami
12-07-2007, 04:38 PM
We need a "sit back and munch popcorn" smiley... I sense the floor show is about to start up again. :rolleyes:

Nate the great
12-07-2007, 04:41 PM
If y'all are saying it's not safe, I understand. But TallMomof2 said "can not", not "should not".

@nekokami
:popcorn:

Alisa
12-07-2007, 04:43 PM
We need a "sit back and munch popcorn" smiley... I sense the floor show is about to start up again. :rolleyes:

I think we need a tar pit icon we can flag a thread with to denote that it's gone over to the DRM debate. For the last couple of days I've been clicking on threads so hopefully only to find more :deadhorse:

secretsubscribe
12-07-2007, 04:46 PM
Has anyone done a weekly DRM debate count? ;)

Alisa
12-07-2007, 04:49 PM
Has anyone done a weekly DRM debate count? ;)

We could have a banner with a little chart of the top horse-beaters.

nekokami
12-07-2007, 04:51 PM
How did I miss that popcorn smiley??

Yes, a "tarpit" icon for a whole thread would be an excellent idea.

TadW
12-07-2007, 04:51 PM
We could have a banner with a little chart of the top horse-beaters.

:laughter:

Alexander Turcic
12-07-2007, 04:52 PM
Soon we'll have tags and prefixes we can add to threads. That should make things easier ;)

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-07-2007, 05:14 PM
When someone buys a book, they are also buying the right to resell that book, to loan it out, or to even give it away if they want. Everyone understands this.

Well, things change. Everyone should understand that, too. You can't resell an e-book the way you would a printed book. Oh, well. Moving on.

TallMomof2
12-07-2007, 05:15 PM
Semantics, shemantics. Morality and legality aren't always the same thing. For me it's cannot not should not. Others see it in a different shade of gray.

Barcey
12-07-2007, 05:21 PM
Well I was thinking that if common methods of indoctrination into a cult are food / sleep deprivation and separation from family and friends then maybe... but then you could say that about any good book. :)

I found this though and I don't think the Kindle falls into the five characteristics. Well maybe #5. ;)
http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/faq.html

Nate the great
12-07-2007, 06:13 PM
I think we need a tar pit icon we can flag a thread with to denote that it's gone over to the DRM debate. For the last couple of days I've been clicking on threads so hopefully only to find more :deadhorse:

Sometime this weekend I will start a thread where we can discuss the next color for the Kindle. It wiil have a poll.

nathantw
12-07-2007, 06:42 PM
Welcome to the modern age of digital rights. I hate the idea there's DRM in the electronic books we buy, but it's there so we need live with it. I hate the idea that I need to buy 2 of the same game if I want to play head to head with my son with his Sony PSP portable gaming system, but you know I deal with it. That's just part of living in the digital world. If you know you're going to want to sell or give away your book after you're done with it then get a paper book. If you know the rules beforehand then you can adjust your actions to accomodate.

JSWolf
12-07-2007, 07:03 PM
We need a "sit back and munch popcorn" smiley... I sense the floor show is about to start up again. :rolleyes:

Your wish is granted....

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

GregS
12-07-2007, 07:09 PM
DRM or not to DRM is hardly the question. Managerial control has dug its own grave, for DRM will not last the distance, it is doomed to failure, the only question is how long it will survive.

Five years? Ten? Substantially more, or substantially less, is a guess.

But crippled literature has no long term future.

If Kindle encourages more people to use ebooks, it is a good thing, in the end they will want something more reliable than crippled literature - it makes the market for alternatives and that is also a good thing.

Managerial stupidity knows no bounds, but it cannot ensure a stupid solution will forever stay in place. I will not buy any literature, unless by accident, that I cannot crack, format for other uses in other contexts, and be assured that I can get it to work on any device I may buy in the future.

Most people do not have this approach, for most readers the material is disposable, a consumer item to be used and then discarded, not something kept indefinitely.

But time will tell, the consumer approach will buy anything, but I will not, and there are many like me and we will outlive DRM. Besides which I give it about a year or so for "DRM cracking software" is developed when and if the Kindle is a success.

mrkai
12-07-2007, 09:39 PM
But time will tell, the consumer approach will buy anything, but I will not, and there are many like me and we will outlive DRM. Besides which I give it about a year or so for "DRM cracking software" is developed when and if the Kindle is a success.

...then I can tell you when it will happen.

Europe or Textbooks...like the latter since it has better odds of happening first.

allen.gotwald
12-07-2007, 11:03 PM
I'm a Sony 505 owner but I can appreciate the disclaimer. If a single book can be distributed to 500,000 people for free from a single source (a unique distribution capability of the internet of e-books) authors are hurt. Then again, I found an LRF copy of a sci-fi book I hadn't seen in 30 years that I'd read as a youngster. The book doesn't exist on shelves or on e-book store web sites so I didn't feel guilty about downloading and reading this treasure (that had $.25 on the cover). That's a capability unique to the net that normal distribution services don't cater to. It's a conundrum.

Panurge
12-07-2007, 11:20 PM
Look, folks, something like the same language used to be included in pbooks as well, particularly in some of my older Penguins, which warned that the printed book you purchased could not be resold, copied, etc., etc. Of course it didn't work, and in any case, how would the publisher check? Libraries went on merrily purchasing and loaning out pbooks with the warning clearly printed inside the cover with no compunction. This is nothing new. It's just that trying to track pbook usage (and resell or copying) was next to impossible, whereas with e-books it is at least within the realm of possibility, though still not very easy.

Panurge
12-07-2007, 11:24 PM
Followup: from my copy of the Penguin-Pelican paperback edition of Mary Douglas, Purity and Danger, 1970 (copyright page):
"This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re-sold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent publisher."
Of course, the operative language here is "binding or cover," but I think you get the point. This is nothing new.

kacir
12-08-2007, 08:41 AM
*I* am definitely not a member of the Kindle cult.
I do not have one, for a start.
I do not live in USA, so Amazon does not want my money.
I perceive the Kindle with mixed feelings.

I am glad that there is finally an ebook reader that is going to take the world by storm. Perhaps the publishers will stop ignoring the world of ebooks
I personally do not consider the look of the device important. The quality of display, price, features and ergonomy of use are much, much more important to me. And ... I do not even consider Kindle to be ugly or even bad-looking. You should see some of my computers. The more they resemble something contrived by Dr. Frankenstein the cooler they look to me :D

On the other hand there is the proprietary lock-down of the device that I DO dislike, just like I pointed out in several other threads.

Overall I see more positive things than negative about Kindle.

HarryT
12-08-2007, 08:44 AM
On the other hand there is the proprietary lock-down of the device that I DO dislike, just like I pointed out in several other threads.


What "propriatory lockdown" are you referring to? You don't have to buy books from Amazon if you don't wish to - you can load your own content.

Mikou
12-08-2007, 08:58 AM
Libraries went on merrily purchasing and loaning out pbooks with the warning clearly printed inside the cover with no compunction.

I don't know about the past when lending libraries were new, but I thought that these days libraries only lend books with the publisher's permission and that the lending history is something that those publishers actually track.

nekokami
12-08-2007, 06:01 PM
Followup: from my copy of the Penguin-Pelican paperback edition of Mary Douglas, Purity and Danger, 1970 (copyright page):
"This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re-sold, hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent publisher."
Of course, the operative language here is "binding or cover," but I think you get the point. This is nothing new.
I think this is a different issue, related to to the practice of "stripping" unsold books and returning the covers to publishers for credit. I don't think this reads as a prohibition against loaning or re-sale.

If the Kindle really catches on (and Amazon doesn't provide a book resale/swap service), there will probably be a court challenge regarding the "doctrine of first sale" and its applicability to ebooks. (Where's that popcorn icon again? Oh yeah: :popcorn: )

nekokami
12-08-2007, 06:02 PM
I don't know about the past when lending libraries were new, but I thought that these days libraries only lend books with the publisher's permission and that the lending history is something that those publishers actually track.
Not in the US, but I believe this is done in the UK.

catsittingstill
12-08-2007, 06:19 PM
I love the popcorn icon. :-)

I don't consider myself a cult member, but I have gone out there and made a few corrective comments when I saw misinformation about the Kindle being posted. Since I'm not even sure I will buy a Kindle (but I like them, I do... but I have no money and anyway I should wait and see how they do in the long run; never be the first kid on the block to buy anything), an attack on the Kindle is not realistically an attack on the core of my self image.

It just makes me mad to see people who don't even bother to read the product description all the way to the end before they start badmouthing something.

Though honestly, I guess I wouldn't care as much if it was, say, a videogame for playing football.

The Kindle just seems like a magic book to me, and that seems very cool. Yes, I think it would be good if publishers decided to let Amazon sell their books without DRM; yes, I think it would be good if Amazon took the Baen route and sold in all formats to all comers; yes, I think it would be good if the Kindle supported epub natively; yes, I notice that many people have trouble with the page turn buttons, and that white may tend to look grubby after a while, and that Sprint doesn't always cover all the areas they say they cover, and I agree these are all legitimate issues, and I'm okay with people bringing them up.

But seeing people claim that Amazon charges you to put your own content on the Kindle, or that browsing costs 10 cents a click, or that Kindle "locks you into Amazon" just makes me mad. There's enough real issues to think about without having to wade through fake ones. :angry:

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-09-2007, 07:34 AM
I'm a Sony 505 owner but I can appreciate the disclaimer. If a single book can be distributed to 500,000 people for free from a single source (a unique distribution capability of the internet of e-books) authors are hurt. Then again, I found an LRF copy of a sci-fi book I hadn't seen in 30 years that I'd read as a youngster. The book doesn't exist on shelves or on e-book store web sites so I didn't feel guilty about downloading and reading this treasure (that had $.25 on the cover). That's a capability unique to the net that normal distribution services don't cater to. It's a conundrum.

It is a big issue. Although that is certainly one of the greatest single advantages of the digital realm, actually there's no reason why that e-book couldn't have still paid the author their due for your obtaining it.

Obviously it's up to the authors or publishers to work that out, and essentially set up an out-of-print e-book system. It's up to them whether they care if you just took one of their books for free. If not, you can enjoy whatever they deem is okay to give away.

Myself, I'd also be tempted by something that was not available in any other format, and was there for free to take. But I would probably exhaust the possibilities that there was no legitimate source for the material. I would also consider whether the book was considered in public domain before downloading it. Otherwise, I would likely leave it alone, since technically, downloading it without the author's permission would be wrong.

But that's me.

watcha
12-09-2007, 02:08 PM
Soon we'll have tags and prefixes we can add to threads. That should make things easier ;)

And wouldn't it be great as well to have the option to download a complete thread to your Iliad? Yes, I know there's a print option (which allows me to create a pdf), but that only does the one web page.

There's so much good reading here, but why must I sit in front of my desktop?

kacir
12-09-2007, 04:25 PM
What "propriatory lockdown" are you referring to? You don't have to buy books from Amazon if you don't wish to - you can load your own content.
With "propriatory lockdown" was trying to avoid the DRM word. I wanted the discussion to stay on the "Kindle cult" topic :D

You can not read DRMed books from other sources then Amazon on Kindle.

You can not read Amazon ebooks on any other device. Not even PC.
What if you want to copy a paragraph from a reference book to your thesis under the fair use?

You can not convert your DRM free stuff to Amazon format *yourself*. You have to ask Amazon and send your file (possibly containing private information) for conversion. What if Amazon refuses to convert your files in the future? (change of policy, discontinued product, ... whatever reason)

RWood
12-09-2007, 04:34 PM
I think this is a different issue, related to to the practice of "stripping" unsold books and returning the covers to publishers for credit. I don't think this reads as a prohibition against loaning or re-sale.... :popcorn: )
Exactly. Like Lp record albums with a notch or hole punched in the jacket, these were either credit returns or promo pieces. (I have seen in the old days a lot of coverless paperbacks in junk sales.)

Is there a Kindle Kult? Sure. It is part of the ebook cult. Lets hope that things take off so much that we can leave the cult status behind. (Although at the rate things are going, soon reading itself will be a cult.)

zartemis
12-09-2007, 10:26 PM
What if you want to copy a paragraph from a reference book to your thesis under the fair use?

Then you use either the "save page as clipping" or the "highlight" feature on the Kindle, select the section of text you want to use, plug your Kindle USB cable in, transfer over the "My Clippings" file and paste it into your thesis.

astra
12-10-2007, 05:49 AM
You can not convert your DRM free stuff to Amazon format *yourself*. You have to ask Amazon and send your file (possibly containing private information) for conversion. What if Amazon refuses to convert your files in the future? (change of policy, discontinued product, ... whatever reason)

Will all due unrespect for kindle, you can convert your DRM free stuff into mobipocket format, which is acceptable by kindle. I believe it is a better option because if you abandone kindle and move to any other reader that supports mobipocket, you will be able to read your stuff there as well, while if you had an option to make your own kindle files at home, they would be unreadable on your next non-kindle reader.

So...you should be grateful :thanks: they didn't eliminate this last open door :thumbsup:

HarryT
12-10-2007, 09:28 AM
You can not convert your DRM free stuff to Amazon format *yourself*.

No, that is incorrect. The Amazon AZW format is just MobiPocket. You can use any of the tools that are available to create MobiPocket format files, transfer them to your Kindle via USB, and they'll work just fine.

kacir
12-10-2007, 01:20 PM
No, that is incorrect. The Amazon AZW format is just MobiPocket. You can use any of the tools that are available to create MobiPocket format files, transfer them to your Kindle via USB, and they'll work just fine.
I stand corrected. :surrender:

I have completely forgotten about that.

I very much hope that this hole will not be "fixed" in an automatic update :D

Alisa
12-10-2007, 01:43 PM
I doubt it would be. I can't imagine Amazon's making a killing off that $.10 transfer fee. It seems likely to me most if not all of that goes to Sprint. I'd always figured it was there to keep the service from being a big loss.

carld
12-10-2007, 02:52 PM
I was really surprised by that article and disagree with its premise entirely. If there's any irrational cult developing it's amongst the Kindle bashers who hated the device sight unseen often without even reading the specs. Those hundreds of completely clueless 1-star "reviewers" are the cult not Kindle owners and prospective owners who have actually bothered to learn something about the device they're interested in.

mrkai
12-12-2007, 03:48 PM
You want a good reason to bash the Kindle? The TOS.

By agreeing to use Whispernet, you agree to allowing Amazon to not only monitor your *purchases* from them, but any and all of the content on the Kindle, your reading habits in general, and specific information about what you read, what you bookmark, what you annotate and other things that aren't any of their damned business.

Sigh.

And let's not forget that you also give them the right and ability to change the terms of what you "purchased" from them at their discretion, or to repossess what you "purchased" from them without a refund(!) and revoke your "right to use"(!) the physical hardware at all should you violate these nebulous terms, which, are changeable at their discretion.

Good enough for me.

Alisa
12-12-2007, 03:52 PM
Considering I already bought most of my books through them before, they already know that. If I really want to keep a reading choice private, I figure I better go buy a paper copy for cash. If I download it or pay with a credit card, I assume it's not a private choice.

tsgreer
12-12-2007, 04:09 PM
You want a good reason to bash the Kindle? The TOS.
By agreeing to use Whispernet, you agree to allowing Amazon to not only monitor your *purchases* from them, but any and all of the content on the Kindle, your reading habits in general, and specific information about what you read, what you bookmark, what you annotate and other things that aren't any of their damned business.

Since Whispernet is free, I think my reading privacy is an easy trade off. I couldn't care less if they see what I read. I bought most of my books from them in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I don't want "the man" to infringe on our rights too much, but um, reading privacy? Who cares?

Now maybe there is some corporate stuff or something you don't anyone to see either, but I for one wouldn't put any work stuff on my Kindle. It's all mine and it's all leisure. Of course, this is just my opinion, but those people who carry around their office stuff 24-7 are crazy. Few people lay on their deathbed and wished that they would have worked more or read more work-related books before they passed. :)

Anyway, when it comes to TOS or DRM or whatnot, if that's what makes ebooks take off, then I will live with it as long as it's easy for me to grab my stuff and read....

azog
12-12-2007, 05:27 PM
You want a good reason to bash the Kindle? The TOS.

By agreeing to use Whispernet, you agree to allowing Amazon to not only monitor your *purchases* from them, but any and all of the content on the Kindle, your reading habits in general, and specific information about what you read, what you bookmark, what you annotate and other things that aren't any of their damned business.

Of course, you could operate with the wireless turned off. You can still purchase Kindle books from Amazon, you'd just have to download the old-fashioned way. Considering they already know what I read, regardless of Kindle or not (since they maintain a "Recommended for you ... based on previous purchases"), I don't quite see much difference.

Alisa
12-12-2007, 07:17 PM
Now maybe there is some corporate stuff or something you don't anyone to see either, but I for one wouldn't put any work stuff on my Kindle. It's all mine and it's all leisure. Of course, this is just my opinion, but those people who carry around their office stuff 24-7 are crazy. Few people lay on their deathbed and wished that they would have worked more or read more work-related books before they passed. :)

I can't even put confidential work documents on my home computer. Anything confidential has to go on a machine provided and administered by my IT department. IME this is pretty standard.

mrkai
12-13-2007, 12:28 AM
Since Whispernet is free, I think my reading privacy is an easy trade off. I couldn't care less if they see what I read. I bought most of my books from them in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I don't want "the man" to infringe on our rights too much, but um, reading privacy? Who cares?

What's your address?

I love how people are blissfully marching into the darkness for convenience that doesn't even exist.

You are aware, right, that if amazon is able to track what is on your kindle, and you happen to buy something to put on your kindle that you didn't buy from them and they sell it, that they could decide you have violated their TOS with your "stolen" content and kill everything you bought...right?

How convenient is that eventuality? :)

Alisa
12-13-2007, 12:53 AM
That doesn't quite follow that anything you load on your Kindle that isn't purchased from Amazon is therefore regarded by them as stolen. Myself and everyone I've talked to with a Kindle has more non-purchased content than purchased content (legal public domain or creative commons works). Not an issue. I don't see how their ToS could make it so. It could make an issue with illegal content but it remains to be seen what degree of examination they are undertaking on that front.

Seriously, if you want anonymity in your reading materials I would strongly dissuade you from downloading ANY content as well as from purchasing ANY content with a credit card. Here in the US with 750K on the watch list this is not solely the concerns of paranoiacs. I'm fine if the government knows I have a fondness for Jane Austen. They don't need to know my political leanings. They will likely know that if I download such works here, on a torrent site, on a Kindle, on a Sony Reader, if I pay for it with a credit card, or even if I search on the title on Google. If you want privacy, buy paper and pay in cash. I'm not saying this to lull you into any false sense of security. I'm saying it to warn you that there really is very little security.

sianon
12-13-2007, 04:37 AM
Since Whispernet is free, I think my reading privacy is an easy trade off. I couldn't care less if they see what I read. I bought most of my books from them in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I don't want "the man" to infringe on our rights too much, but um, reading privacy? Who cares?

Now maybe there is some corporate stuff or something you don't anyone to see either, but I for one wouldn't put any work stuff on my Kindle. It's all mine and it's all leisure. Of course, this is just my opinion, but those people who carry around their office stuff 24-7 are crazy. Few people lay on their deathbed and wished that they would have worked more or read more work-related books before they passed. :)

Anyway, when it comes to TOS or DRM or whatnot, if that's what makes ebooks take off, then I will live with it as long as it's easy for me to grab my stuff and read....

I do have work files on my Iliad and would do so on any e-reader I owned. However my work folder is only ever opened whilst I am at work. I am often out in the field during work hours and having access to documents is very helpful. Having access to my general reading material whilst waiting in court is even better :).

tsgreer
12-13-2007, 03:15 PM
What's your address?

I love how people are blissfully marching into the darkness for convenience that doesn't even exist.

You are aware, right, that if amazon is able to track what is on your kindle, and you happen to buy something to put on your kindle that you didn't buy from them and they sell it, that they could decide you have violated their TOS with your "stolen" content and kill everything you bought...right?

How convenient is that eventuality? :)

Did you invent the Sony Reader or something? Why are you so anti-Kindle? :)

Actually the Kindle wasn't designed for just Amazon-bought content. That's why it supports non-DRM'd mobi files and .txt files and converts several other non-DRM'd formats for free.

I guess it also comes down to that I don't read "stolen" i.e. darknet texts, etc, so I am not afraid if they "check to see what I am reading."

I'm not a huge fan of drug-testing, but guess what? I don't do drugs, so test away, I don't care. If you want to "stay off the grid" don't buy anything. Are you aware that Sony knows what you are reading (if you bought from Sony Connect) or that Mobipocket knows what you are reading if you buy books from them.

Your credit card company knows what you are reading if you bought something from Barnes and Noble unless you paid cash. Walgreens knows that you are having sex if you buy condoms. I mean, come on privacy can be a thing of intangible levels. You can have COMPLETE privacy, but to do that you have to be alone, don't buy anything unless you have cash (by the way, don't put that cash in a bank, they will find you!), don't leave your house, etc.

Listen, I am all for being anti-government, anti-man or whatever, but sometimes you just gotta pick your battles. I don't subscribe to your point of view that this is some vast Amazon conspiracy to see if I am reading stolen porn on my $400 reader or to find out what I am buying and reading so they can enslave me with some new form of malware, figure out a way to install it thru a whispernet optical scan job and control my thoughts to buy the latest Nora Roberts book for $6 from the Amazon-Is-My-One-And-True-God-Store.

Ok, yes, I am aware you didn't say that, but I'm being over-dramatic to make a point. :D

P.S. My address is in the phone book, so very easy to find. You know why? Because I don't care if people know it. If you chose to stalk me, tie me up and use my skin for lampshades in your apartment, I probably wouldn't be smart enough to cover my tracks enough to hide anyway. I'd prefer that you didn't use my skin for a lampshade by they way, I am quite attached to it...:(

Oh and a second P.S. Amazon knows my address anyway because I have bought several p-books from them over the years, so the kindle doesn't really invade my privacy any more than that.

Alisa
12-13-2007, 03:27 PM
Did you invent the Sony Reader or something? Why are you so anti-Kindle? :)

I have to admit I had a little chuckle that he's a Sony *cough*rootkit*cough* customer.

tsgreer
12-13-2007, 03:31 PM
I have to admit I had a little chuckle that he's a Sony *cough*rootkit*cough* customer.
:rofl: Yeah, if someone is overly concerned about privacy, Sony isn't exactly the place to be loyal to.

HarryT
12-14-2007, 03:59 AM
:rofl: Yeah, if someone is overly concerned about privacy, Sony isn't exactly the place to be loyal to.

Sorry, you've slightly lost me. What did the Sony root-kit incident have to do with privacy? It was just an anti-copying thing, was it not?

tsgreer
12-14-2007, 10:19 AM
Sorry, you've slightly lost me. What did the Sony root-kit incident have to do with privacy? It was just an anti-copying thing, was it not?

I'm not sure of the specifics (I'm sure there are many here who can and will correct me) but it did it secretly by installing something on your computer and sent them information on your system. I think. Kinda sorta. I do remember that it caused a big uproar.

I could be totally wrong tho. :chinscratch:

Penforhire
12-14-2007, 11:19 AM
It was an example of corporate arrogance on a similar scale to Amazon's "new" DRM.

HarryT
12-14-2007, 11:37 AM
It was an example of corporate arrogance on a similar scale to Amazon's "new" DRM.

Certainly it was; I'm not doubting that. But, to the best of my knowledge, it didn't transmit any information to anyone and hence had no "privacy" implications, which appeared to be the claim being made.

Alisa
12-14-2007, 01:16 PM
No. It was just astoundingly disrespectful of the customer and could leave their computers open to all sorts of hackers which could affect their privacy.

Ervserver
12-15-2007, 12:55 AM
If I end up buying the Sony reader I'll probably not install the Sony software

HarryT
12-15-2007, 03:27 AM
If I end up buying the Sony reader I'll probably not install the Sony software

That's fine - you don't have to unless you want to buy any books from the Sony Connect store.

carld
12-15-2007, 08:32 AM
It was an example of corporate arrogance on a similar scale to Amazon's "new" DRM.

From what I remember the rootkit fiasco was considerably worse.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 10:28 AM
If I end up buying the Sony reader I'll probably not install the Sony software

...I would in fact not buy the Sony. I would get something that supported the Mobipocket format.

Unless at the turn of the year Sony sphincter's something mindblowing, i think they are done really as far as commercial sales and whatnot goes.

(The Following is not to be misconstrued as advocacy. Thanks in advance)

Unless a widespread way becomes available to purchase "premium" books from somewhere else and make them work on sony's gear, that is. The way the business models for these readers and the epub market is tho, outside of that, I see nothing good in sony's future, sadly.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 10:37 AM
I have to admit I had a little chuckle that he's a Sony *cough*rootkit*cough* customer.

...which is where the problem really comes from in this regard.

And if you know *anything* about Sony, you'd know that Sony is quite a mess :) I've never seen a company fight itself amongst its divided parts in quite the way Sony does,

I guess that's what happens tho when you let a movie company effectively take over a CE company from within, huh? :)

mrkai
12-15-2007, 10:41 AM
That doesn't quite follow that anything you load on your Kindle that isn't purchased from Amazon is therefore regarded by them as stolen.

...to get "premium" content onto the Kindle without buying it from Amazon and their TOS doesn't leave room for you to debate this, does it? :)

-K

mrkai
12-15-2007, 10:46 AM
Did you invent the Sony Reader or something? Why are you so anti-Kindle? :)


Where did you get that?


Actually the Kindle wasn't designed for just Amazon-bought content. That's why it supports non-DRM'd mobi files and .txt files and converts several other non-DRM'd formats for free.

Nor did I say this either.

I *said* it was designed for Amazon bought *premium* content and there is no indication of anything else...is there? :D

There is certainly indication in a very tangible way to the contrary in fact. Hence the tool we discuss in another thread to circumvent this...issue.

The rest of this I leave to Martin Niemöller...

-K

Alisa
12-15-2007, 02:13 PM
...to get "premium" content onto the Kindle without buying it from Amazon and their TOS doesn't leave room for you to debate this, does it? :)

-K

Actually you didn't specify "premium" content in your original post. You said anything they sell. They sell quite a few public domain works. They're inexpensive, usually $2.50 or so. I'm guessing that's not what you mean by "premium". Thanks for somewhat clarifying.

mrkai
12-15-2007, 03:53 PM
Actually you didn't specify "premium" content in your original post. You said anything they sell. They sell quite a few public domain works. They're inexpensive, usually $2.50 or so. I'm guessing that's not what you mean by "premium". Thanks for somewhat clarifying.

Yeah...there are several versions of this conversation going on all over mobileread and I think this was the oldest one I was engaged in and was not specific whereas in others I made this more clear.

I meant "locked premium content that they sell".