Future pricings of eReaders is going to be interesting. So far, as far as I can tell, the tale seems to have been:

"We manufacture and sell eReaders, but our sales volume is low. Therefore there is little market for these devices."

Vendors have not realised that no-one is prepared to pay their outrageous prices for what is essentially a one-task device.

The launch of the Kindle in the US at US$400 (UK£200) and the rate at which it sells out, indicates (to me at least) that the price that people are prepared to pay around UK£175 (US$350) for a "non-wireless" eReader.

If vendors do not match these sort of prices then I suspect that their product is going to be dead in the water. I think we should all hold off buying until around March 2008 when the prices across the board will be about right, or certain companies will have gone to the wall along with their product.

Assuming that we get a nice price war, and I believe that it will come down to just this, survivors/winners will probably be:

Bookeen Cybook Gen 3; (already at £245 (US$500))
HanLin V3 US$329 (UK£170 plus around £80 to bring it into the country).
If packaged for outside China with a EU supplier this will be a winner, import duties and tax is the killer here at the moment).

At £306 (US$612) Istarebook does not look hopeful.
Neither does Irex Iliad (although Iliad may have a different market (engineering , construction sciences etc etc). Its spec is a bit upmarket. But at a basic price (no cover) of £433, too pricey for the general reader, student, teacher, researcher.

The above is of course only my opinion based upon a UK view. We have seen this sort of fight before, remember Betamax and VHS?

My advice is (if you are not in the US) to wait and see who is the last man standing.

A J Edwards

The determining factor at present is the high cost of eInk screens. A 6" eInk screen costs about £100 ($200) to manufacture (that's the cost to the device manufacturer, not the retail price), so you can't realisticially sell an eInk bookreader for under about £150 ($300) retail, plus whatever local taxes apply.

Manufacturing costs will certainly fall with time, but that's the current situation.

Thank you Harry, I did not know the cost of the eink screen.

This leads me to believe that the price in the UK is then going to be approx £180 (inc VAT) + p&p. Additions such as a quality leather case can be extra.

Once this price is achieved just watch them fly off the shelves. If this price can be achieved then whoever does it will win hands down.

A J Edwards

Isn't it likely that improved technology will sustain price levels - the next gen will cost about the same as the current gen?
The best cost effective option may be to purchase penultimate generation devices (e.g. Sony 500 instead of 505).

Isn't it likely that improved technology will sustain price levels - the next gen will cost about the same as the current gen?
The best cost effective option may be to purchase penultimate generation devices (e.g. Sony 500 instead of 505).

I agree with you on this to a limited degree. We have been paying around $10 000 for high end 35mm digital cameras for ages. They started out at 1.4 megapixel and are now up to 21 megapixel but the price has stayed the same. I think e ink devices may follow this trend but not to the same degree as after all how far is there to go with a book reader.

I agree with you on this to a limited degree. We have been paying around $10 000 for high end 35mm digital cameras for ages. They started out at 1.4 megapixel and are now up to 21 megapixel but the price has stayed the same. I think e ink devices may follow this trend but not to the same degree as after all how far is there to go with a book reader.Good observations. I believe manufacturers will not keep readers to be dedicated as such. The Kindle's other functions might be an indicator. Connectivity, browsing, newspapers and magazines are that step but a device that can do those is not far away from doing animation; and then colo(u)r is the next step. The reader will evolve and take place of the overpriced UMPC at the same price we pay for today's readers. Then as popularity takes on, the flexible eink devices will arrive and large scale manufacturing will assure us of cheaper alternatives.

That's all if our oil based marketing structures and lifestyle holds on.:tired:

I agree with you on this to a limited degree. We have been paying around $10 000 for high end 35mm digital cameras for ages. They started out at 1.4 megapixel and are now up to 21 megapixel but the price has stayed the same. I think e ink devices may follow this trend but not to the same degree as after all how far is there to go with a book reader.

I think it depends on how large the market gets. Laptops hit a floor, originally, while desktops just kept falling. That's because laptops were a relatively small portion of the personal computer market. Once they reached a significant share, the same market forces that pushed desktops down started working on laptops. Now a manufacturer can produce a feature-limited laptop with a $599 retail price and make money.

I think it depends on how large the market gets. Laptops hit a floor, originally, while desktops just kept falling. That's because laptops were a relatively small portion of the personal computer market. Once they reached a significant share, the same market forces that pushed desktops down started working on laptops. Now a manufacturer can produce a feature-limited laptop with a $599 retail price and make money.

I am more and more inclined to the view that unless major technical advances are made e-ink is going nowhere and it will remain a niche market.

After having the Sony for a while and giving the Ebk1150 to my father in law when he went back to Europe (he absolutely loved it, especially reading newspapers in our language), I thought I would be using the Sony more, but I tend to use it less actually, rather read a print book if I want the experience of print, and of course I use intensively my 770 everywhere. The 770 reading is not print as e-ink is, but personally I find it much better than print.

Can't say why I am using the Sony less and less (no backlight, too big, too slow, no touch screen..) but right now I am getting an Ipod touch (tested it with large science pdf's and it was the best mobile experience with pdf's that I ever had), and while now it's still locked so you either jailbreak it or have to use the wi-fi, if Apple folows through their promise and opens it up it will be a great reader too.

I think it depends on how large the market gets. Laptops hit a floor, originally, while desktops just kept falling. That's because laptops were a relatively small portion of the personal computer market. Once they reached a significant share, the same market forces that pushed desktops down started working on laptops. Now a manufacturer can produce a feature-limited laptop with a $599 retail price and make money.

Laptops' price decline also depended a lot on technology improvements, particularly in displays. For years, laptop displays (LCDs) were in constant design flux, meaning manufacturing plants were retooling every 2-3 years, and prices stayed up. LCD display tech has since stabilized, constant plant retooling has not been necessary, and so prices have come down significantly.

We should expect that, as more companies manufacture e-ink, and once the design stabilizes (hopefully on a faster-refresh color variant), e-ink screen prices should drop, too. But, just as with laptops, it could take awhile.

Laptops' price decline also depended a lot on technology improvements, particularly in displays. For years, laptop displays (LCDs) were in constant design flux, meaning manufacturing plants were retooling every 2-3 years, and prices stayed up. LCD display tech has since stabilized, constant plant retooling has not been necessary, and so prices have come down significantly.


When I bought my Dell desktop in the summer, the order was delayed for a month because there was, apparently, a global shortage of the type of LCD displays that Dell use. It would seem that the supply problems with LCD screens aren't entirely a thing of the past :).

When I bought my Dell desktop in the summer, the order was delayed for a month because there was, apparently, a global shortage of the type of LCD displays that Dell use. It would seem that the supply problems with LCD screens aren't entirely a thing of the past :).

Yes, well, that's supply. I was mainly referring to manufacturing cost, which was kept overly high due to too-frequent factory retooling.

Many electronics materials have gone short, especially silicon (now that solar cell manufacturing is up) and other precious and toxic materials, and we can expect to see occasional product shortages on a regular basis, I'm sure.

Rarity of materials right! Silicon is the most abundant crystal on the planet.
Any reason is good to extort a buck.

Rarity of materials right! Silicon is the most abundant crystal on the planet.
Any reason is good to extort a buck.

Yes, but refining and working with it to create precision electronics is involved and expensive, making electronics grade silicon harder and harder to get... that's why many labs are actively seeking silicon replacements for electronics and solar cells right now.

Laptops' price decline also depended a lot on technology improvements, particularly in displays. For years, laptop displays (LCDs) were in constant design flux, meaning manufacturing plants were retooling every 2-3 years, and prices stayed up. LCD display tech has since stabilized, constant plant retooling has not been necessary, and so prices have come down significantly.

That and the fact that for years LCD plants produced a VERY high percentage of faulty panels, which consequently raised the price for a panel considerably. The decline in price for panels did actually start when the production lines became less error prone. I.e. in the case of LCD panels it was not so much the LCD technology as such that caused the high prices.

I have no idea if the same holds true for e-ink panels. But I can very well imagine that PVI buying additional production plants (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=118943) might have an impact on e-ink panel pricing in the long run.

Yes, but refining and working with it to create precision electronics is involved and expensive, making electronics grade silicon harder and harder to get... that's why many labs are actively seeking silicon replacements for electronics and solar cells right now.Say Steve, if you're interested, I've got links (http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news?section=podcast)to blogs and podcasts on green energy. Some of them have talked specifically about the artificial solar cell shortage and qualify it as hogwash. No offense to you and the information you communicated, I hold you in high regards. This is a subject that raises my blood pressure in no time. :grin2:

Say Steve, if you're interested, I've got links (http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news?section=podcast)to blogs and podcasts on green energy. Some of them have talked specifically about the artificial solar cell shortage and qualify it as hogwash. No offense to you and the information you communicated, I hold you in high regards. This is a subject that raises my blood pressure in no time. :grin2:

That's the first I've heard of that opinion (and no offense taken). I have a hard time believing that lack of solar cells is due to any big conspiracy, but I'll listen to them when I get a chance (hopefully sometime before Christmas, at this rate!).

That's the first I've heard of that opinion (and no offense taken). I have a hard time believing that lack of solar cells is due to any big conspiracy, but I'll listen to them when I get a chance (hopefully sometime before Christmas, at this rate!).It is not a conspiracy. What happened is that there was a big demand 2 years ago for solar panels. At that point the producing centers for pure silicon were backed up but they have built two more centers which have now started production. As a trafic jam, such productions have not yet cleared the piled backlog. This is the time where greedy hands get at work. The Chinese have their own facilities and have now flooded the market with smaller cells. Are they expensive? No. The pricey and, quote, 'rare' solar panels commodities are only the ones for home electricity. Just go figure why. After all a solar panel is just an assembly of small cells.
There is an interesting podcast interview with the head of a manufacturer about the whole mess, that is quite interesting.
Those tpodcasts are long and last from anywhere between 15 to 90 minutes each. I put them on a pod and listen to them while working, driving or cleaning.
Two other podcasts of interest are: Autoblog green (http://podcasts.autobloggreen.com/) and The Watt Weekly (http://www.thewatt.com/article-category-2.html)
Those three together makes for roughly 200 hours of listening. If you're passionate about the subject, as I am, it is pure pleasure to set time aside for them. Try also Home Power Magazine (http://www.homepower.com/). The current monthly issue is available on site in pdf, and all previous ones can be had on a cd rom they sell. Believe me if you're a tinkerer you'll love them.:grin:

There is an other solar panel on the way that is about 1% less efficient energy wise but it is flexible and can be made to be a roofing material at 80% the cost of actual solar panels. The reason is less handling but add to that the benefit of no prior roof installation required and they really become interesting. With those, today's monocrystalline panels are dead.

In fact, I do subscribe to Home Power magazine, and I've been interested in solar cells for the home since 1975. I've been actively investigating the possibility of applying them to my home since 2000.

I knew about the solar cell backlog, but not the Chinese cell production. (Apparently, based on their heavy use of coal for power generation, and the resultant choking pollution in much of the country, neither are the Chinese.) I knew Japanese Honda was gearing up for production of non-silicon-based cells, but they plan to sell exclusively to the Japanese market, at least at first.

It's definitely disconcerting that other nations that might develop alternatives to oil-based energy systems might withhold them from the US, just when we're trying to convert from oil. What's even more disconcerting would be if American concerns are blocking US interests, based on their personal profit concerns.

Say... have we digressed from the subject a bit?...

Anytime Steve! :laugh4:

In fact, I do subscribe to Home Power magazine, and I've been interested in solar cells for the home since 1975. I've been actively investigating the possibility of applying them to my home since 2000.



JR (the actor not character) of Dallas fame got a solar energy system for his Texas ranch since his electricity bills were ~30k year and since he puts electricity back into the grid he got a 300k one-time credit from the local energy company.

The problem: he put 700k in the system and considering maintenance (not a lot but still..) it's going to be a while until it pays for itself...

As pretty much anyone outside the oil industry, I would like to see alternative energy as soon as possible, but it's not so easy...

The problem: he put 700k in the system and considering maintenance (not a lot but still..) it's going to be a while until it pays for itself...

Yeah, that's my disconnect: I don't have half the cost of my house to spend on the system experts say I'd need, to get a payoff within 30 years. I'm glad Larry Hagman can manage it, but I don't have Larry's or JR's bank account!

Anyway, I'm holding out hope for the non-silicon-based cells to hit the market at significantly lower prices. I hope that, when it comes time to re-tile my roof, I'll be able to put solar tiles up there on 50% or more of its surface.

700k for solar panels?!? What did he live in, a factory? Oh, forgot! Gold plated.

That's the beauty of the panels I mentionned earlier, when your roof shingles are due for replacement you can cover the roof with solar panels; they do double duty. And since it's like rebuilding the roof, the cost can be added to the mortgage.

If you do install them, for many reasons, it's better to go off grid.

BTW I'm reading Evoguia. Good so far. See, that's matter for MR and so was mentioning Home Power PDFs. :grin2: When we get a decent PDF reader I'll purchase that CD ROM.

Glad you're enjoying Evoguia!

It's so hard to say whether we'll see a reader price war... a lot depends on whether people feel that the readers are the best way to read e-books, or if they show that they just want the e-books for other devices (like PDAs and smartphones). So far, no one has demonstrated the ability (or inclination) to bring their readers down significantly in price. If Kindle takes off, the other e-book readers could simply throw in the towel and cater directly to Kindle or alternative device consumers.

We may see a price war on the e-books themselves, if sellers feel the need to compete with Amazon for market share of content.

Well, that set the cat amongst the pidgeons!

Reading all the views I conclude the following:

(1) Given the current tech spec and market size we are unlikely to see much of a downward price shift in 2008. Prices for a reasonably spec'ed eBook device will average at around £200 (US$400).

(2) If we have a steadily growing market here will be a move to improve the tech specs to dynamic graphics and colour with prices probably slightly above the current prices. This is unlikely to happen in 2008.

(3) The likely impact of the Amazon Kindle is as yet unknown. Some commentators felt that just maybe they will have market dominance and cause other suppliers to shift the whole shooting match along Amazon's way of thinking.

(4) We live in exciting times!

A J Edwards

The biggest factor for prices kept high is that there are no clones yet.
Everything is still subject to R&D throughout this budding evolution cycle, and we all know cloners don't touch that because their turnaround is measured in years. Add Babel format war and cloners will not go for an undefined market. The biggies have it good so far and will try their best to keep it that way; why do you think they lock their books to their devices?

What makes you believe that there's likely to be a price war, A.J.? When, for example, Bookeen can sell all the Gen3's they can make for £245, what incentive is there to lower the price? I rather think that, at present, this is a rather specialist market in which price is not the most important factor in many peoples' minds.

How are we to get kids involved in ebooks?

Most children are not, in my experience, very keen readers. I think it's an interest which tends to develop in many people with increasing maturity. I'm not sure that there is a significant market for children's eBook readers.

Sorry, I used kids as a general term for non adults. Twelve to eighteen year old kids do read a lot, sometimes more than adults because they have the time. I remember having a teacher that gave me serious reads for my age at the time.
Btw My kids are 23 and 25. Being busy with staying alive, just above poverty line, they can't afford the high prices of readers. How about them, do you really think that readers should be for rich people only?

Most children are not, in my experience, very keen readers.
I don't know about most, but my son reads all the books he can lay his hands on, and it's seems we can't provide enough :)
And he is only 6 years old... agreed, it's only child-books of 80 pages with huge fonts, but still, he reads something like 4 of those per week...
And he is definitively not the only one like this around.
Since I got my sony reader, he has shown a real interest about it (too much of an interest as I won't let him have it :)).

How about them, do you really think that readers should be for rich people only?

yvan, i don't think HarryT doesn't want a price war on the readers. He just pointed out that until the market of ebooks becomes sensibly wider, there are poor chances to have this price war. And that's definitively too bad :(

How are we to get kids involved in ebooks?

The same kids who read p-books will read e-books. If the format leads them to obvious advantages... like, say, being able to carry their entire collection of books with them... I think kids will be on e-books like a house afire. If they like those advantages enough, even high prices won't keep them out.

If e-book reading devices lead to further advantages in other media... say, color, multimedia, saving clips from e-magazines... the e-magazine readers may "discover" e-books and add them to their burgeoning collection.

Btw My kids are 23 and 25. Being busy with staying alive, just above poverty line, they can't afford the high prices of readers. How about them, do you really think that readers should be for rich people only?

No, but don't forget, e-books can be read on other devices, which can cost significantly less than dedicated readers. So at least they can get access to e-books, with or without a dedicated reader, and that's what's really important.

Other devices made it big using a subscription model. Sell the razor cheap and charge for the blades. What if a company, say Amazon, came out with a continuous subscription model? Say they charge $10 a month and you can have one book loaded at a time (or $12 for 2 at once or...). The price point is arbitrary. I have no idea what the market would bear. They can download a new book and delete the old book at will. Sounds like this Netflix model is something the Kindle might be capable of doing.

A lot of us might balk at never actually owning the books but isn't this a path to financial success? They can lower the reader's price because it is made up by a guaranteed income stream.

My other thought about the market is a bundled sale. I'm not sure how it would go over. What if you offered the reader at a reduced price because you are buying e-book store credit at the same time? For example, $450 for the Sony reader with a $300 store credit. This would hit two birds at once, reader price and guaranteed publisher income. Might not fly well because of the higher initial investment. That's why I like the subscription concept better on its chances for success.

If we could access enough books at will would it matter that we never owned them? I think that could induce the paradigm shift to ubiquitous cheap e-readers.

I'm going to agree that I think that the big win will be for the company who makes people believe that they're getting a real deal, something for free. I doubt it matters if they are getting some content for free (say, 10 books) or if they pay full price but get a discount on the actual device. But people like a bargain, even if it's only an illusion.

I'm not sure the idea of renting a limited number of books is quite as appealing, since I think in most cases, it defeats one of the real selling points of a reader - the sheer number of books you can store at any one time. But maybe it's just not preaching to me.

Finally - the how will we get the kids interested is my favorite question. It's been well over 20 years since I had to "invent" something for a class project, about the one thing you wished existed. It feels surreal that I'm currently living in the future I dreamed of when I was a kid - because ereaders, with their ability to store so many books at the push of a button - was exactly what I wrote up.

It's kind of nice to be living my own dream :) Next up, flying cars.

I don't think we'll see a price war on e ink devices until the supply of e ink screens outstrips demand and the price of the screens comes down. But if the Kindle continues to sell well, we might see an upsurge in other screen alternatives for ebook readers. I know many people here really love e ink (and I like it well enough myself), but it's not the only alternative, and a different technology might be found to compete better on price.

Other devices made it big using a subscription model...

On a subscription model, I'd be looking to get the Kindle for a really discounted price (around $100), and a mildly discounted price (20-30% off) for any books I buy for a period of time, say, 2 years. Sort of like a combination cell phone/book club deal.

On a subscription model, I'd be looking to get the Kindle for a really discounted price (around $100), and a mildly discounted price (20-30% off) for any books I buy for a period of time, say, 2 years. Sort of like a combination cell phone/book club deal.

The eb1150 can be purchased that way today and the reader is free with the subscription. Check Filament Books. I do not know how successful they are.

Dale

The same kids who read p-books will read e-books. If the format leads them to obvious advantages... like, say, being able to carry their entire collection of books with them... I think kids will be on e-books like a house afire. If they like those advantages enough, even high prices won't keep them out.

If e-book reading devices lead to further advantages in other media... say, color, multimedia, saving clips from e-magazines... the e-magazine readers may "discover" e-books and add them to their burgeoning collection.

My question was a rhetorical answer to the previous post pointing to the involvement of a notoriously poorer segment of the population that has a marked need for mobile reading. Kid's access to them.
My daughter who reads the most hates computers with a passion but likes my reader. My son dreads reading but is an avid gamer, he couldn't care less for a reader even if it was only ten bucks.

When the reader replaces the 'actual' computers, (note that I said 'actual' because computer functions will evolve too) It will be imperative that they be easily and affordably put in the hands of young ones. If not the disparity of knowlege from rich to poor will only further on and grow to major social cataclysm; and I weighted my words here. The pressure in the pot is already quite high, just take a deep look at the last incidents that took place in France. There are other hot spots around the world that could easily flame in the same ways.

The eb1150 can be purchased that way today and the reader is free with the subscription. Check Filament Books. I do not know how successful they are.

Dale

one issue with this option, is that it is not available to us in Australia

When the reader replaces the 'actual' computers, (note that I said 'actual' because computer functions will evolve too) It will be imperative that they be easily and affordably put in the hands of young ones.

If it's a question of getting needed tools to the young and/or disadvantaged, I'm for a multi-purpose device, not a dedicated device. The young/disadvantaged are better off being able to do more with fewer devices... we shouldn't expect them to need a PC and a dedicated e-book reading device.

If it's a question of getting needed tools to the young and/or disadvantaged, I'm for a multi-purpose device, not a dedicated device. The young/disadvantaged are better off being able to do more with fewer devices... we shouldn't expect them to need a PC and a dedicated e-book reading device.Totally agree. I just wish some manufacturers other than the OLPC's would agree too.:disappoin

nothing from nothing but until there is a universal open source format for ebooks or Amazon licenses their format, then there will never be a price war. I could foresee Amazon will sue anyone who attempts to embed the ability to read the Amazon format either in their player or reader application. That would seem to be the whole point of the proprietary format of the ebooks from Amazon...the largest source of ebooks right now.

So, as long as Amazon is in control of the format of the majority of ebooks which can be read ONLY on their reader...there will be no price war no matter what the production yields on the displays or the technology of those displays.

Strictly speaking, of course, there's nothing stopping publishers from releasing their e-books in other formats (unless they stupidly signed away their right to do that when they contracted to Amazon). So, if pubs released their e-books in, say, ePub, the war would be on, with e-books, and possibly with readers.

I can't believe I forgot about Barnes & Noble when I was posting earlier. They must be wanting to get a spot in this market. Maybe they could partner with Bookeen. (Is Bookeen scheduled to support ePub? I've forgotten, now.)

Strictly speaking, of course, there's nothing stopping publishers from releasing their e-books in other formats (unless they stupidly signed away their right to do that when they contracted to Amazon). So, if pubs released their e-books in, say, ePub, the war would be on, with e-books, and possibly with readers.

ePub would be GREAT...buuuut...

It sure would be nice to know more details about the electronic rights Amazon has co-opt'd... ;) Given Amazon's investment in the Kindle's development and buying Mobipocket, I cannot see Amazon signing a deal that would allow a publisher to license other re-sellers for at least the first few years of the agreement.

I really see this as more of a file format war then anything else...kinda like the old Word vs. Wordstar vs. WordPerfect vs. Xywrite...and then there was the first true Windows word processor Ami Pro (now IBM's Word Pro [just a stoopid name])...

It is going to be the file format itself that dictates the market. And right now Amazon is king. Unless publishers can get together with author's such as yourself and others to hammer out the real options I see the whole market as stagnating due to this current single source issue which is developing.

Who knows even Google might have something to say about the issue in the long run...???

But, I am getting the sense that, in my life time, we will not see a decent solution to what is really a simple problem...can you imagine if there were the same controls over something like paper & binding of books? I see an ebook format as no different really.

I imagine it is going to take yet another law on the books to address the restrictions to information access that a single dominant seller can cause.

BTW, I LOVE many aspects of the Kindle and other readers...except the file format issue and the cost of the devices themselves...see I don't buy into the per unit cost of a screen being more that $25-$50, especially WITHOUT a touch screen. But it is the control over the formats the books are available in that makes it all possible.

It sure would be nice to know more details about the electronic rights Amazon has co-opt'd... Given Amazon's investment in the Kindle's development and buying Mobipocket, I cannot see Amazon signing a deal that would allow a publisher to license other re-sellers for at least the first few years of the agreement.

The major publishers have already confirmed that they have not signed exclusive deals with Amazon. As far as any kind of time-limited exclusivity is concerned, I seriously doubt it. Publishers just don't work that way. Right now, Amazon needs content more than the publishers need an e-book outlet. The publishers have the upper hand and they don't sell any rights they don't have to.

see I don't buy into the per unit cost of a screen being more that $25-$50, especially WITHOUT a touch screen.

6" eInk screens cost around $150-200 to manufacture. That is a FACT, regardless of whether you "buy into it" :). I'm sure that prices will fall with time, but that's what they cost at present.

You could always buy a PDA if you're after a cheaper device.

It sure would be nice to know more details about the electronic rights Amazon has co-opt'd... ;) Given Amazon's investment in the Kindle's development and buying Mobipocket, I cannot see Amazon signing a deal that would allow a publisher to license other re-sellers for at least the first few years of the agreement.

Amazon can only control a publisher's use of the Kindle format. To that end, I believe they specify that you can't sell a Kindle edition for less at another site. The agreement says nothing about other formats, however, so you are still fre to sell those other formats at any price you choose, on any site.

I really see this as more of a file format war then anything else... It is going to be the file format itself that dictates the market. And right now Amazon is king. Unless publishers can get together with author's such as yourself and others to hammer out the real options I see the whole market as stagnating due to this current single source issue which is developing.

Remember, it was grass-roots efforts that propelled MP3 to the top of the music format heap, and music publishers essentially caved to its ubiquitous use. We could still see that in the e-book market, especially if easy-to-use conversion tools and cross-platform reader apps are made available.

Remember, it was grass-roots efforts that propelled MP3 to the top of the music format heap, and music publishers essentially caved to its ubiquitous use.

This is an excellent point which I had known and forgotten about.

Remember, it was grass-roots efforts that propelled MP3 to the top of the music format heap, and music publishers essentially caved to its ubiquitous use.

Then we need more OGG-Vorbis fans out there in the grass. MP3 stinks.

Well, having read all the posts I think that I must be wrong to think that there might be a price war. We will just have to bite the bullet and live with prices of around £250 for eInk readers.

I note that Harry stated that Bookeen can sell all they produce so no need to reduce price. What I don't understand is that in the UK one cannot buy any of these devices in computer stores or electronic shops. Surely if they were openly available in the shops interest might be kindled (no pun intended)?

I have not yet met one single person who owns any form of eReader except for a handheld PC. Most of my friends and acquaintances (and me) read eBooks, but only on these small devices which is a pain in the rear end because the screen is so small. Most would buy if they could walk into a shop and pick one up at a reasonable price (say£200).

I have enquired at Currys, PC World , electronic gizmo shops along Tottenham Court road, amongst others and, generally speaking the sales staff either have no idea what I am talking about, or, the answer is that "there is no demand for them".

The whole UK scene is extremely frustrating.

A J Edwards

The whole UK scene is extremely frustrating.

Believe me, it seems almost as frustrating over here!

Even though the US has access to the devices, you're right about one thing: The asking price seems ridiculous for everyone but early adopters (and maybe those whose business expense accounts can absorb the cost). I haven't bought any e-book reader (other than my PDA), as much as I'd like to be able to see how my books upload and display to the devices, and it's all because of that cost.

Further, these devices with their exclusive formats are contributing to the e-babel and DRM that none of us love, without even giving us the benefit of cheaper devices to kick off the price war you originally alluded to. So, as much as it's nice to have the devices available to us, many of us agree that aside from added publicity, they may actually be hindering the development of the e-book market in any number of ways.

Well, you've got to remember that readers are exotic luxury items. The makers for now are only offering them as a way to milk the reliably rich people whom abound in the States. A price war would be the end of that wouldn't it.

The makers for now are only offering them as a way to milk the reliably rich people whom abound in the States....

ummmm...ok...I sell more high end luxury items to buyers in Russia/Ukraine/Asia (HK, Japan and a few other places) then the rest of the world COMBINED.

But I get your point...many people here simply are too stooopid for the money they somehow end-up with...

:cool:

Amazon can only control a publisher's use of the Kindle format. To that end, I believe they specify that you can't sell a Kindle edition for less at another site. The agreement says nothing about other formats, however, so you are still fre to sell those other formats at any price you choose, on any site.

Ahhhh...OK, so that makes sense...then still we are all under the control of the rat bastage publishers? So now I wonder if under the agreement Amazon is even allowed to license their Kindle format to other device mfg's? Port them over to the more standard Mobipocket? (not saying Mobipocket is a standard or such...just there are more readers that can manage the format and Amazon owns it too, right?) I have no clue what format is best just know PDF ain't it for the most part... ;)

Where I am obviously heading is the lack of any standard format for ebooks. I am not unhappy with the cost for most of the books I would read...$3-$5/book is FINE and would be better if the writer was getting the lion share of the funds. But it is still that pesky cost of the devices themselves to other devices then the Kindle that will stifle any sort of pricing competition.

That coupled with the small...well, minuscule....number of books actually out there in ANY ebook format. I would kill for the ability to get all the Edward Abbey's works for example...heck even some of the more entertaining "Little Fuzzy" series by H. Beam Piper...and good luck finding any of George Alec Effinger Budayeen series...just a few of my niche favs that I seriously doubt will ever be had anywhere but that "dark net" during my life time.

So I really guess I was saying that it seems to me until there is a more widely available device independent format (DRM'd is FINE with me) there cannot be a price war for the devices themselves let alone the books. Maybe that is kinda why Amazon bought Mobipocket? To move in that direction? From my reading it's not a huge stretch to create a Mobipocket version from the Kindle version???


Remember, it was grass-roots efforts that propelled MP3 to the top of the music format heap, and music publishers essentially caved to its ubiquitous use. We could still see that in the e-book market, especially if easy-to-use conversion tools and cross-platform reader apps are made available.

I dunno if that is going to happen with books as this go'round the publishers have had time to "learn" from the MP3 issue and how it played out. Seems even the economics of scale and the fact those who buy only USED p-books now would likely become ebook buyers in very short order (revenue the current system never sees), will not deter them from the ham-handed control they hold over both authors and the electronic publication of their works. Ebooks should have been the FIRST thing to evolve since the advent of the portable computer...not the last....

I am not sure if anyone read it but I believe it was either Cnet or PCMag that ran a poll and blog/board about the Kindle and whether they would buy a device...the vast majority were flabbergasted over the device cost not the book cost. People wanted either more functionality from the device AND/OR a significantly lower price.

I know I can say that the $400 price tag is exactly why I will not buy into a device that might not even work in 2-years if Sprint decides EVDO is not all that great or the whole thing is left to die on the vine. Plus I have been on this computer age treadmill for almost 4-decades now and am simply tired of the instability that it has devolved into...easier to stop buying books period then $400 every couple years just to buy and read books or listen to audio content...

I look at Audible as an example...they licensed their format to device mfg's and that is when the service and content demand took off big time...

So until there is sanity in the device arena and the book format arena I will live with Baen, Project Guttenberg & such but I refuse to visit the darknet side.

I am sorry as I seem to have diverted this thread a bit off-topic but it is simply I cannot see any price competition for the devices until other aspects of the industry fall into line and cooperate....yeah, and there really is a Spider Pig! ;)

I thought I would add that maybe Amazon is not allowed to sell in any format other then their own Kindle format...??

If they were each book would be out in every format that supports DRM...now THAT would improve book sales. I have to believe Amazon would have preferred that route as selling BOOKS is more their bread & butter over a simply piece of hardware which, strangely enough seems to be subsidizing the cost of the content rather then the cost of content subsidizing the cost of the device.

oops///duplicate post...

I thought I would add that maybe Amazon is not allowed to sell in any format other then their own Kindle format...??

If they were each book would be out in every format that supports DRM...now THAT would improve book sales. I have to believe Amazon would have preferred that route as selling BOOKS is more their bread & butter over a simply piece of hardware which, strangely enough seems to be subsidizing the cost of the content rather then the cost of content subsidizing the cost of the device.

I think quite a few of us don't understand why Amazon didn't simply adopt 2-3 of the most commonly used e-book formats and sell those, not hardware. Presumably, the Kindle gives them more control over where the file ends up, which is, I suspect, a key factor for them and their piracy-fearing publishers.

If piracy wasn't a concern (or if Amazon's people occasionally read Cory Doctorrow), I expect we'd be seeing Amazon convert its store to various e-book formats to sell to the most people. With their current system, they can say they sell e-books, but the number of readers will be smaller due to the initial investment of the Kindle. Maybe they do hope to use Kindle to hook the public on e-books (the exclusivitity method, everyone wants the new toys), then give them more hardware choices later by offering other formats or delivery packages (perhaps downloaded to cell phones?). We can only wait and see.

Steve:

I agree for sure...I have been thinking quite a bit about the whole Kindle thing. In order to prove to the publishers & their bean-counters perhaps Amazon had no choice but to begin with sort of a closed-system. This way they do offer a degree of control over the content.

I also like that we can get existing content converted into Kindle format. And for now Amazon is taking the "don't ask don't tell" approach to the conversion.

Still I find the closed systems questionable at best...especially since we have seen so many efforts come up short.

Plus it seems the majority of my favorite authors not only have few-to-no titles in ANY ebook format but many of those guys are dead...and it seems the relatives of dead authors are so greedy about royalties there is likely no hope of conversion unless there is a single fairly secure file format with DRM so the books can be read on the 100s-of-millions to BILLIONS of existing devices out there....are you listening whoever holds the "rights" to the works of Edward Abbey??? H. Beam Piper...etc... :whistle:

But back to the topic...no, I still see no "price war" in the short term...not until there is some uniformity of content format that equates to portability of that content...and given that ebooks were promised to use when the first PC's were evolving I fear the ice caps will melt before we see uniformity... :blink: