View Full Version : MAJOR FLAW in the Amazon Kindle


sirmaru
11-21-2007, 08:26 AM
There is one Major Flaw in the Amazon Kindle. It EXCLUDES PC book readers.

I have been reading books for the last 10 years using PC Readers primarily Microsoft Reader and occasionally Adobe Acrobat. I much prefer my 24" Wide Screen PC Monitor with its own great lighting to any paper books or mobile readers.

Why would I want to drop from my great 24" wide screen Monitor which does not need any external lighting back to a 6" screen which requires good external lighting? I would only use the Amazon Kindle if Amazon also supplied a good PC Reader to go with it. Then I could still continue most of my book reading on my PC and SUPPLEMENT it with the Kindle.

For example, I'd prefer to read my Bible each day on my PC and then use the Kindle to bring that Bible to Church for Bible studies. Then the Kindle would be great. Now the Kindle is simply NOT A KEEPER.

I believe Amazon has made a very big mistake by not supplying a PC Reader. Almost all of Amazon customers ARE PC USERS. They have excluded most of their own customer base by denying the use of PC Readers.

Thus, I will wait for Microsoft to supplement their GREAT PC READER with a Mobile Device at some future time. Almost all books available can be read with MS Reader. One can buy them from a variety of sources other than Microsoft. The Kindle book files can ONLY be purchased from Amazon.

dugbug
11-21-2007, 08:30 AM
are you familiar with eink displays and their advantages? Have you actually USED an eink reader? The sony is usually on display at borders.

They look/read like paper. No backlit (huge plus), read in direct sunlight, very low power.

Also, why would you curl up on your sofa and hold a 24" wide screen monitor?

-d

HarryT
11-21-2007, 08:33 AM
I believe Amazon has made a very big mistake by not supplying a PC Reader. Almost all of Amazon customers ARE PC USERS. They have excluded most of their own customer base by denying the use of PC Readers.


Do you think that many people read on their PC? I can't stand doing so myself - that's why, despite having a PC, I've been reading eBooks on a variety of portable devices for the last 20 or so years.

Sounds as though the Kindle isn't right for you, but I'm not sure that one can generalise and say that Amazon made a big mistake by not supporting reading on the PC. I get the impression from this forum that not very many people read on their PCs.

I'll put up a poll so we can get an idea of how many people prefer reading on their PC compared to hand-held devices - I'd be interested to see the results.

sirmaru
11-21-2007, 08:37 AM
are you familiar with eink displays and their advantages? Have you actually USED an eink reader? The sony is usually on display at borders.

They look/read like paper. No backlit (huge plus), read in direct sunlight, very low power.

Also, why would you curl up on your sofa and hold a 24" wide screen monitor?

-d

I am on my PC 12 hours of every 24 hour day. I read all my books, magazines, and EVERYTHING else on my 24" wide screen monitor. When I leave it, I watch TV on my 32" HD TV's (3). I have not read anything curled up in a bed because I only go to SLEEP there.

Most Amazon customers are computer ADDICTS as am I. I have not been to a brick and mortar book store in 10 years.

The exclusive kindle book reading is good for NON-computer users ONLY. For me PC use is my ONLY means of reading. The kindle would only be a supplementary book reader at its BEST in my humble opinion.

dugbug
11-21-2007, 08:39 AM
I would presume that most amazon customers buy actual books

-d

HarryT
11-21-2007, 08:42 AM
Most Amazon customers are computer ADDICTS as am I.


Virtually everyone I work with buys books from Amazon. I wouldn't describe any of them as a "computer addict". They just use a computer as a part of their work and find it convenient to shop on-line.

The exclusive kindle book reading is good for NON-computer users ONLY.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. As I said in my earlier post, personally I've been reading on hand-held devices since, if I recall recorrectly, 1985, when I bought my first "personal organiser" (a Psion II).

tompe
11-21-2007, 08:44 AM
Most Amazon customers are computer ADDICTS as am I. I have not been to a brick and mortar book store in 10 years.


I do not believe that is true.

Personally I cannot read on a PC since I cannot find a comfortable reading position for reading many hours in a row. Reading forums is totally different because there you can take pauses and do other things.

resistor
11-21-2007, 08:47 AM
For what it's worth, I'm a professional programmer, so I sit in front of a screen all day, and I spent a lot of my non-work time in front of one as well.

That said, I find intensive textual reading on an LCD or CRT to be extremely taxing. When I'm working, I have to take breaks every hour or two to allow my eyes to recover. E-ink doesn't have that problem.

From talking to other people, I don't think I'm in the minority in finding that extended on-screen reading causes serious eyestrain.

sirmaru
11-21-2007, 08:47 AM
Virtually everyone I work with buys books from Amazon. I wouldn't describe any of them as a "computer addict". They just use a computer as a part of their work and find it convenient to shop on-line.

Amazon could easily correct this MAJOR FLAW by simply supplying a PC Reader for their book files. If they did this, I would buy the Kindle to be able to continue reading when away from my PC.

Otherwise, my 24" Wide Screen Monitor with much bigger fonts and better clarity than Kindle can ever dream of will be my method of choice for reading EVERYTHING.

CommanderROR
11-21-2007, 08:48 AM
@sirmaru

Do you realized what kind of strain you are putting on your eyes by reading lots of text on a backlit LCD screen? Reading a forum or some reviews is OK, but the huge, bright white background of my 22" LCD and 42" TV screens (and I don't use maximum brightness, my PC monitor is on something like 20% backlicght brightness actually) would be enough to bring tears to my eyes after anything more than a brief reading session...

sirmaru
11-21-2007, 08:51 AM
That said, I find intensive textual reading on an LCD or CRT to be extremely taxing. When I'm working, I have to take breaks every hour or two to allow my eyes to recover. E-ink doesn't have that problem.

I am 72 years old and have PERFECT 20/20 vision. I am the only patient at my eye doctor at my age with this kind of vision. I never take breaks from my PC. I used it all day when I worked and use it even more now since retirement. It causes NO eye strain for me.

For all my working years and now in retirement I have spent almost my entire waking life looking at my PC Monitor.

I have a hunch there are quite a few folks around in this COMPUTER AGE who are exactly like me.

FixB
11-21-2007, 08:51 AM
I have no difficulty to read on lcds or CTRs. And I do all day long.
Still, I wouldn't read a book on my pc and I really really prefer a pda or, more recently, a dedicated device (sony reader).
I don't think this will penalize greatly amazon... it's more - imho - a slight inconvenience for some users than a major flaw.

resistor
11-21-2007, 08:54 AM
I am 72 years old and have PERFECT 20/20 vision. I am the only patient at my eye doctor at my age with this kind of vision. I never take breaks from my PC. I used it all day when I worked and use it even more now since retirement. It causes NO eye strain for me.

As you yourself pointed out, you're in the great minority. I'm in my 20s, also have perfect 20/20 vision, and do experience eye strain from extensive on-screen reading.

I understand that it's not what you want, but that doesn't mean that it's a terrible thing for most people.

HarryT
11-21-2007, 08:57 AM
I've put up a poll here (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16364) so we can get some (extremely unscientific) idea of the numbers of people who feel each way about it. Please cast your vote!

tompe
11-21-2007, 09:07 AM
Otherwise, my 24" Wide Screen Monitor with much bigger fonts and better clarity than Kindle can ever dream of will be my method of choice for reading EVERYTHING.

I do not believe this. You realize that a line should maximum be around 70 characters for optimal reading. So the size of the monitor does not matter. The perceived size depend on reading distance so how can you claim that the fonts are bigger on a monitor?

Nate the great
11-21-2007, 09:18 AM
I don't think it is a flaw so much as it's a deficiency.

It si something Amazon had to do once they decided to make Mobipocket and Kindle Edition non interchangeable. If they released a desktop reader, it would be very similar (under the hood) to the Mobipocket PC Reader. I bet it would be identical.

azog
11-21-2007, 09:25 AM
Well, as a computer geek since circa 1980, and a full-time computer professional since about 1985, I have to disagree with the basic argument presented here. I haven't jumped into the e-book readers until the E-ink became available. Having spent almost 30 years in front of monitors of any sort, I did not want to do that to myself when I want to read a book. I've used PDAs, but even those somewhat strenuous on my eyes, if it's just little less.

But for me, the biggest thing is the "curling up" issue. I often read in bed, before I go to sleep. I'll put the book down, turn out the light, and bam, I'm out. If I find myself nodding off while reading, so be it. Sometimes the light doesn't even get shut off!

Having used the CyBook for a couple of weeks now, I can actually do this. I can read as long of a stretch as I want without my eyes getting tired. And when the sandman calls, I just roll over. I do have a Kindle on order, and it's a little bigger than the CyBook, so I don't know how that'll work out.

But as for "e-book readers are for computer illiterate" (or for non-computer professionals), that's just pure hogwash.

sirmaru
11-21-2007, 09:35 AM
I don't think it is a flaw so much as it's a deficiency.

It si something Amazon had to do once they decided to make Mobipocket and Kindle Edition non interchangeable. If they released a desktop reader, it would be very similar (under the hood) to the Mobipocket PC Reader. I bet it would be identical.

Can MobiPocket PC Reader be used to read Kindle book files? If it can, then the problem is resolved.

Where can MobiPocket PC Reader be downloaded? Has anyone tried it with a Kindle book file?

HarryT
11-21-2007, 09:40 AM
Can MobiPocket PC Reader be used to read Kindle book files? If it can, then the problem is resolved.

Not currently, because MobiPocket books are encoded for specific devices, and there's no way (at present) to encode a Kindle book for a desktop PC. It could potentially be done in the future, however, since it appears that Kindle books are nothing (or very little) more than standard DRM-encoded MobiPocket books.

Where can MobiPocket PC Reader be downloaded?

http://www.mobipocket.com

Has anyone tried it with a Kindle book file?

Several people have - see other threads. The desktop reader shows you the book's cover page and tells you that the book has not been "activated" for the desktop machine.

JSWolf
11-21-2007, 09:48 AM
If I was to take my ebooks and read them only withmy computer, I'd have two choices. My computer or the laptop. If I went anyplace where that was not feasible, I would have to stop reading my ebooks. With my 505, I can take my ebook and move along. I use public transport when I go into town and being able to take along my ebooks is quite nice.

Have you actually seen an eink based reader? Go to Borders and have a look at the 505. The screen is the same as used on the Kindle and the Gen3 so you'll get an idea of how they'll both look.

sirmaru
11-21-2007, 09:58 AM
If I was to take my ebooks and read them only withmy computer, I'd have two choices. My computer or the laptop. If I went anyplace where that was not feasible, I would have to stop reading my ebooks. With my 505, I can take my ebook and move along. I use public transport when I go into town and being able to take along my ebooks is quite nice.

I rarely leave my house so my PC IS my major viewing device for all my life activities including reading, investing, banking, gaming, chatting, etc. When I do leave my house, I use my car and the only device I carry there is my Garmin GPS. Reading and driving do not mix.

The Kindle could be a good supplementary reader for waiting in offices or when accompanying my wife going shopping. However, I still require a PC Reader for my usual life style.

I would want to be able to sync my bookmarks and notes between the Kindle and my PC Reader. A good compromise would be for Amazon and Microsoft to cooperate so that Microsoft Reader could read Amazon Kindle files. If that cooperation happened, I would definitely buy the Kindle as my SUPPLEMENTARY Reader.

If that happens, I would hope that the Kindle would also be able to read MS Reader files as well. Then I could use all my present book files on my PC and on my Kindle and have a wide variety of sources where I can purchase books.

Failing all that, I prefer to stick to Microsoft Reader for PC viewing of books.

HarryT
11-21-2007, 10:40 AM
The Kindle could be a good supplementary reader for waiting in offices or when accompanying my wife going shopping. However, I still require a PC Reader for my usual life style.

I would want to be able to sync my bookmarks and notes between the Kindle and my PC Reader. A good compromise would be for Amazon and Microsoft to cooperate so that Microsoft Reader could read Amazon Kindle files. If that cooperation happened, I would definitely buy the Kindle as my SUPPLEMENTARY Reader.

If that happens, I would hope that the Kindle would also be able to read MS Reader files as well. Then I could use all my present book files on my PC and on my Kindle and have a wide variety of sources where I can purchase books.

Failing all that, I prefer to stick to Microsoft Reader for PC viewing of books.

Sounds as though the Gen3 might be a better choice, given your lifestyle. Lots of different eBook stores to buy books from, nice desktop reader, and you can sync your bookmarks between the Gen3 and the desktop reader.

sirmaru
11-21-2007, 10:58 AM
Sounds as though the Gen3 might be a better choice, given your lifestyle. Lots of different eBook stores to buy books from, nice desktop reader, and you can sync your bookmarks between the Gen3 and the desktop reader.

I notice that my POCKETABLE Garmin Nuvi 750 GPS is 4 3/4" x 2 7/8" x 5/8". It fits perfectly into my shirt or jacket pocket. The Kindle is 5.3 inches by 7.5 inches by 0.7 inches. It will NOT fit in my pockets. Thus, it is not even good as a Supplementary Book Reader.

The difference is that the QWERTY keyboard is on a non-screen location of the Kindle surface while the Garmin QWERTY keyboard is available within the screen. All control features are available through the SCREEN. Using non-screen locations for important features is LAST YEAR'S technology.

What are the measurements of the Gen3? Is it compatible with Microsoft Reader? If it is pocketable, uses the same E-ink technology as Kindle and can read MS Reader files, it definitely would be better for me.

What is the link to their store?

slayda
11-21-2007, 11:00 AM
Although I am not quite 70 yet (another 5 years) & I do NOT have 20/20 uncorrected vision, I do read on my PC & my Sony. Toward the end of the day, whether or not I have done any PC work, my eyes get tired even with E-ink. I find that I must increase the font size as this happens.

The main reason I prefer the Sony is (not the curl up in bed since I also just sleep there) but that I don't have a really comfortable chair at my PC.

Still I would like the right to read my ebooks on my PC at least & preferably on any ebook reader.

JSWolf
11-21-2007, 11:01 AM
Sounds as though the Gen3 might be a better choice, given your lifestyle. Lots of different eBook stores to buy books from, nice desktop reader, and you can sync your bookmarks between the Gen3 and the desktop reader.
Actually, it sounds like the 505 is a better choice. With ConvertLIT and lit2lrf, getting the MS Reader books formatted for the 505 is actually easier.

UncleDuke
11-21-2007, 11:02 AM
Virtually everyone I work with buys books from Amazon. I wouldn't describe any of them as a "computer addict". They just use a computer as a part of their work and find it convenient to shop on-line.



I'm sorry, but I disagree. As I said in my earlier post, personally I've been reading on hand-held devices since, if I recall recorrectly, 1985, when I bought my first "personal organiser" (a Psion II).
i'm a bit behind you harry old chap, i once had a psion 3

nice clamshell but not as sexy as the sony reader, my now ex kept using it as a door wedge

sirmaru
11-23-2007, 11:38 AM
Sounds as though the Gen3 might be a better choice, given your lifestyle. Lots of different eBook stores to buy books from, nice desktop reader, and you can sync your bookmarks between the Gen3 and the desktop reader.

Harry,

I'm looking at the Cybook Gen3 as possibly a better reader for me than the Kindle. I have some questions about it.

At BooksOnBoard.com there is shown three types of book files: MobiPocket (MP), MobiPocket (OD), and eReader. Which of any of these types of files can I read. Which of any of these files can I read on my PC with the MobiPocket Reader.

I notice in the Cybook Gen3 User Guide they mention a PID which has to be submitted to buy books. Where do I find this PID?

HarryT
11-24-2007, 06:03 AM
At BooksOnBoard.com there is shown three types of book files: MobiPocket (MP), MobiPocket (OD), and eReader. Which of any of these types of files can I read. Which of any of these files can I read on my PC with the MobiPocket Reader.

The first two (they are the same format - just different publishers). Not eReader.

I notice in the Cybook Gen3 User Guide they mention a PID which has to be submitted to buy books. Where do I find this PID?

While reading any book on the Gen3, bring up the menu and select "Advanced..." then "About...". The PID is shown in the "About" box. It's a 10 character alphanumeric string.

sirmaru
11-24-2007, 03:47 PM
Harry,

I downloaded and installed eBook Library and Mobipocket reader. Can I purchase eBooks from Content without purchasing the Sony Reader? In the same manner, can I purchase Mobipocket books and read them with their Mobipocket reader without buying the Cybook Gen3?

I'm still hoping that Amazon will give us a PC reader as well eventually.

Thanks for your help.

igorsk
11-24-2007, 04:26 PM
Yes, you can download and read Connect books without purchasing a Reader, and Mobi book without a Cybook or Iliad or Palm etc.

sirmaru
11-24-2007, 07:31 PM
Yes, you can download and read Connect books without purchasing a Reader, and Mobi book without a Cybook or Iliad or Palm etc.

Igorsk,

I thought that to download a Mobibook one must enter a PID which can only be obtained from a Cybook Gen3. Can I just purchase and download that Mobibook and read it on the MobiBook Reader on my PC without any PID?

DaleDe
11-24-2007, 08:13 PM
Igorsk,

I thought that to download a Mobibook one must enter a PID which can only be obtained from a Cybook Gen3. Can I just purchase and download that Mobibook and read it on the MobiBook Reader on my PC without any PID?

All DRM'd books from Mobi need a PID. For the PC you will supply it with the PC PID. You can register multiple PID's so you can have multiple devices.

sirmaru
11-24-2007, 08:36 PM
All DRM'd books from Mobi need a PID. For the PC you will supply it with the PC PID. You can register multiple PID's so you can have multiple devices.

Dale,

Where does one obtain one's PC PID?

wallcraft
11-25-2007, 02:55 AM
Download and install Mobipocket Reader Desktop 6.1 (http://www.mobipocket.com/en/DownloadSoft/ProductDetailsReader.asp). Click on the "?" icon and select About.

Note that the Desktop Reader will provide your PIDs (Windows and handheld) automatically to some sites that support MobiPocket e-books, but others ask you to input them manually.

sirmaru
11-25-2007, 12:38 PM
Download and install Mobipocket Reader Desktop 6.1 (http://www.mobipocket.com/en/DownloadSoft/ProductDetailsReader.asp). Click on the "?" icon and select About.

Note that the Desktop Reader will provide your PIDs (Windows and handheld) automatically to some sites that support MobiPocket e-books, but others ask you to input them manually.

Thanks. That's it.

sirmaru
11-26-2007, 03:37 PM
After exploring this forum I have benefitted IMMENSELY from all the information.

I was able to download eBook Library to read eBook files to fit the Sony PRS 505 plus the MobiBook Reader to read book files for the Cybook Gen3. With that I can read ON MY PC the following types of book files now: MS Reader, Adobe, Mobibooks and eBooks. This produces a wide variety of book files available to me.

Its really too bad that I cannot buy Amazon Kindle Book Files for my PC. They have shut me out entirely. I am sure I am not the only Amazon customer now unable to purchase their book files.

As far as an Eprint reader, I am convinced that the Sony PRS 505 is the best. Its battery appears to have a longer life than the Kindle. It is cheaper than the Cybook Gen3 and the Kindle. If I do decide to buy one just as another toy for myself this year, it will definitely be the Sony 505.

However, in my situation with virtually no eye strain reading all kinds of literature on monitors for 20 years and still retaining 20/20 vision it appears I will continue just reading books on my PC 24" HD Monitor. Its better than any Eprint reader at the moment. It displays black on WHITE with full color in LCD format - a lot less glare than the old CRT's. The Kindle only has 4 shades of grey and displays black on grey. At least the Sony PRS 505 has 8 shades for grey. Plus, the desktop PC does not have any battery problems. In addition, proper external lighting is essential for Eprint readers. My LCD HD Monitor creates its own PERFECT LIGHTING and does not reflect glare from sunlight or my compact fluorescent bulbs.

Since I am retired and at home almost all of the time, I really don't need a portable reader. I'd only buy one as a new toy if at all.

hgwlackey
11-26-2007, 04:08 PM
Its really too bad that I cannot buy Amazon Kindle Book Files for my PC. They have shut me out entirely. I am sure I am not the only Amazon customer now unable to purchase their book files.

Yes, this is my biggest disappointment with the roll-out of the Kindle. I'm very happy reading novels off a pocket-sized PDA, and I love the selection of books in the Kindle store - why can't I have both my hardware of choice and Amazon's huge selection and decent prices?

Hopefully Amazon will release software down the road that'll open up the Kindle store to people who don't actually want a Kindle. It can only lead to increased content sales for Amazon, right?

Alisa
11-26-2007, 05:39 PM
My guess is they're trying to get as many people into the Kindle right now as they can because the biggest money-maker for them is probably periodicals and blogs. The blogs are cheap but you bet they're probably almost all profit. The only value-add they have for this stuff is the convenience of automatic delivery which hinges on their Whispernet. The books are probably not making much money at all. In fact many of the most popular titles are likely being sold at a loss.

I'm hoping once they feel the Kindle has a strong hold, they'll try to get people that just aren't going to buy the Kindle by offering books (probably for a higher price) to non-Kindle-owners. I'm guessing we may not see this until they get to the point they can drop the price on the Kindle hardware. This is all pure speculation on my part, though.

tsgreer
11-26-2007, 06:24 PM
My guess is they're trying to get as many people into the Kindle right now as they can because the biggest money-maker for them is probably periodicals and blogs. The blogs are cheap but you bet they're probably almost all profit. The only value-add they have for this stuff is the convenience of automatic delivery which hinges on their Whispernet. The books are probably not making much money at all. In fact many of the most popular titles are likely being sold at a loss.

I'm hoping once they feel the Kindle has a strong hold, they'll try to get people that just aren't going to buy the Kindle by offering books (probably for a higher price) to non-Kindle-owners. I'm guessing we may not see this until they get to the point they can drop the price on the Kindle hardware. This is all pure speculation on my part, though.

Good speculation on your part though! :smash:

I hope this is what they do.

Alisa
11-26-2007, 06:38 PM
Thanks. I wouldn't bet money on it but I think it could work out well for them as well as a lot of ebook fans.

jasonkchapman
11-26-2007, 06:48 PM
I'm hoping once they feel the Kindle has a strong hold, they'll try to get people that just aren't going to buy the Kindle by offering books (probably for a higher price) to non-Kindle-owners.

I just don't see how they would do that without resolving the Mobipocket issue first. As soon as they offer Kindle books to non-Kindle owners, the Mobipocket dealers would have a very real complaint about unfair trade practices. I don't know what the solution would be, but it's too big a question to just ignore.

As long as we're speculating, though: Am I the only one who thinks Sony should just buy a majority stake in Borders and take a head-on run at Amazon?

Alisa
11-26-2007, 06:52 PM
I think if they do it, they'll release them as Mobipocket titles.

HarryT
11-27-2007, 04:27 AM
My guess is they're trying to get as many people into the Kindle right now

This is demonstrably false. Had Amazon wanted to get as many people as possible into the Kindle, they would not have designed it with EVDO, an (effectively) US-only technology. Sorry to harp on about this, but I really do think it was a disastrous design decision on Amazon's part :(.

Alisa
11-27-2007, 04:47 AM
I think they're starting with the US and picking something widespread in the US for now. If they're smart, they'll come out with a WiFi version and then work on some international partnerships. I think it would be insane to try to take this thing global for now and it's not like it's a huge change to swap the networking hardware. Having EVDO doesn't mean that's the only network connection they'll ever have.

alphasun
11-27-2007, 06:03 AM
I never take breaks from my PC. I used it all day when I worked and use it even more now since retirement. It causes NO eye strain for me...........
I have a hunch there are quite a few folks around in this COMPUTER AGE who are exactly like me.

I agree, though I have not retired yet, and wear bifocals. I use computers both at work and at home and am convinced that there is no inherent cause of eyestrain in the fact that a monitor is backlit etc. The secret is to have the screen at or below eye level and well away from your eyes (at least 80 cm) to avoid your eyes having to look upowards and accommodate (i.e. so that you are focused on infinity and your eye's lens does not have to contract). I suspect that short rests, which one tends to take anyway in order to get a cup of coffee etc., are also helpful. I find that eye strain happens when I just push the envelope too far in terms of staying up late, and I could be watching TV, reading a treaditional book etc, just as easily as working on the computer.
Another tendency I reject is the idea that you need to put a filter screen in front of the monitor. This is a recipe for eyestrain if anything, as it makes the screen dimmer. Many people who complain of eyestrain from bright sources do not realise how very much brighter ordinary daylight is than most artificial light sources, and make do with poor lighting.

HarryT
11-27-2007, 06:19 AM
I think they're starting with the US and picking something widespread in the US for now. If they're smart, they'll come out with a WiFi version and then work on some international partnerships. I think it would be insane to try to take this thing global for now and it's not like it's a huge change to swap the networking hardware. Having EVDO doesn't mean that's the only network connection they'll ever have.

But had they made it use EDGE, as Apple did with the iPhone, it would have still worked in the US, but been ready to roll-out internationally (as Apple have now done with the iPhone) without needing to redesign the hardware first.

astra
11-27-2007, 06:34 AM
It is not only about brightness of LCD monitors, the source that "produces" this brightness flickers.

azog
11-27-2007, 06:43 AM
I wonder if anyone's disassembled a Kindle yet? What kind of EVDO module do they use? Hopefully it is a module, and not an integral part of the system board. Wondering if the Kindle would be easily adapted to other modules?

igorsk
11-27-2007, 06:55 AM
They use AnyData DTEV module.
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/Jama/4158

Frangi914
11-27-2007, 07:49 AM
Hi All:

I am new here and have enjoyed reading all the posts on both the Kindle and Sony PRS-505. I ordered the Kindle twice and than cancelled my order. I found some awesome reviews on YouTube on the Kindle and honestly in my option I feel there is a big flaw with those large forward/backward buttons on the sides - this feature really turned me off and they seem to get in the way of everyone that I've seen reviewing the unit. This was my major reason for cancelling my order. I finally ordered the Sony and I should be receiving it today. I still think the Kindle has a ton of great stuff to offer but for me (being this is my first E-reader) I decided to go with a more basic model. I will most likely purchase the next version of the Kindle after they streamline the look or better yet, just wait for a color E-Reader - keeping my eyes out on the Fujitsu!:pray:

AnemicOak
11-27-2007, 10:49 AM
But had they made it use EDGE, as Apple did with the iPhone, it would have still worked in the US, but been ready to roll-out internationally (as Apple have now done with the iPhone) without needing to redesign the hardware first.

Unless they already have Kindle 2.0 designed & are getting it ready to go within the next year and are using the US Amazon site exclusivity, AZW & EVDO on purpose to keep the Kindle in a controlled market while they get things in place with overseas publishers. Due to their pbook business perhaps they feel they can't afford to alienate non US publishers with local rights to books by selling ebooks from US publishers to overseas customers. Are non US publishers big in the ebook market? I know Transworld isn't putting out Steven Erikson's books as ebooks in the UK, but beyond that I haven't really looked to see what non US publishers offer. Maybe they're less convinced that US publishers & Amazon is hoping to use Kindle 1.0 as a way to sell publishing houses in various markets that ebooks have merit. Amazon as a company isn't stupid in general so it would make sense they have reasons for doing Kindle 1.0 the way they did.


Just some thoughts.

TallMomof2
11-27-2007, 10:55 AM
It is not only about brightness of LCD monitors, the source that "produces" this brightness flickers.

That is the major cause of eye fatigue for me. It's somewhat better with a quality LCD but the eInk screen is far, far better.

Nate the great
11-27-2007, 10:59 AM
They use AnyData DTEV module.
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/Jama/4158

That source is based on the old FCC pictures.

igorsk
11-27-2007, 11:26 AM
Well, here's the line from the log:
Nov 20 12:22:46 kernel: wan: AnyDATA DTEV WAN module driver 0.8.4

Alisa
11-27-2007, 01:21 PM
But had they made it use EDGE, as Apple did with the iPhone, it would have still worked in the US, but been ready to roll-out internationally (as Apple have now done with the iPhone) without needing to redesign the hardware first.

I think it was more about who they could partner with in the US for service than a desire to use EVDO over Edge. Apple almost inked a deal with Verizon but it fell apart. If that had happened, it would've been EVDO, too. It seriously is really, really not hard to bring out an EDGE version. Typically the partnership comes first, though, with stuff like this.

sirmaru
11-27-2007, 03:30 PM
It is not only about brightness of LCD monitors, the source that "produces" this brightness flickers.

HD widescreen 24" LCD Monitors have no noticeable flicker at all. They are like a large white piece of paper. It is the High Definition attribute which does this. Its the same with HD TV's.

The reason for this is the presence of a thin plastic membrane covering the electronics which filters flicker and protects the electronics.

However, that membrane is easily scratched. If one shines a flashlight on a screen turned off, one can spot occasional scratches which are not visible at all when the screen is turned on or off without a flashlight. In addition, if one photographs the screen, one can see the membrane covering the electronics. On the old CRT's and non-HD LCD monitors, one can photograph the screen and will see the flicker but will not see the membrane.

That latter attribute is the down side of HD screens. They cannot be effectively photographed when turned on.

The other problem is that they may have a few missing or frozen pixels. They can be spotted if one examines the screens very carefully. Usually, not more than 1 to 5 are ever present. They usually have no effect on the picture.

All in all HD TV's and / or Monitors have thousand of color variants versus 4 shades of grey on the Kindle and 8 shades of grey on the Sony PRS 505. There is simply no comparison with the HD beating all competition, IMHO. Legibility is better than any printed book, hand held PDA or Ereader. There is NO eye strain if one has the top of the Monitor positioned at eye level.

sfernald
11-27-2007, 04:04 PM
But had they made it use EDGE, as Apple did with the iPhone, it would have still worked in the US, but been ready to roll-out internationally (as Apple have now done with the iPhone) without needing to redesign the hardware first.

Thank god they didn't use edge. I have the iphone, and let me tell you data transfer is much slower than on the kindle. It can be downright painful sometimes.

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-27-2007, 04:07 PM
Basically, I agree with sirmaru that Amazon should be providing standalone files, whether they be in Mobi, ePub, or something else, and leaving it up to the user to plug them into whatever they use. I know that I wouldn't want to be shut out of a huge market of e-books, just because I chose not to buy a Kindle.

That said, I understand why Amazon chose not to do that: Locking the files into the Kindle solves many piracy issues that they, and the publishers, are obviously concerned with (and in fact, I expect that may have been a prerequisite for getting many publishers on-board). It also makes the process drop-dead easy for any Kindle user, and making sure Amazon can sell an easy-to-use device would be key.

We can only hope, as Alisa suggested, that time (and customer demand) will eventually cause Amazon to offer the same books as standalone files... possibly once they realize how large a market they can reach outside of Kindle. Either that, or someone supplies software that will extract the e-books from the Kindle to your hard drive, ready to be read on your PC or ported into another device.

schmidt349
11-27-2007, 11:24 PM
The reason why most conventional displays (CRT, LCD, and any projection apparatus based on these technologies) can cause severe eyestrain is because they flicker, albeit very rapidly (60Hz at a minimum). In a CRT it's a function of the display technology; in an LCD it's the CCFL backlight.

My eyes are especially sensitive -- I can't stare at a computer screen for more than a couple hours at a time. That's why non-refreshing display tech like electrophoretics and cholesteric LCDs are so promising to me.

Of course an HDTV or a high-resolution computer display is going to beat out electrophoretic displays in a great many respects -- but they cause eyestrain a heck of a lot more easily than EPDs, and most people can't really lug an HDTV around with them :-P

It sounds to me like the "MAJOR FLAW" you're seeing in the Kindle is that it isn't what you want it to be and it doesn't have much application for you. In that case, do what you like and good luck.

HarryT
11-28-2007, 04:30 AM
Thank god they didn't use edge. I have the iphone, and let me tell you data transfer is much slower than on the kindle. It can be downright painful sometimes.

I completely accept that EVDO is a much faster wireless technology than EDGE, but eBook files are not large. Does it really matter if it takes 1 minute or 5 minutes to get a new book delivered to your Kindle?

mphuie
11-30-2007, 06:37 PM
Amazon could easily correct this MAJOR FLAW by simply supplying a PC Reader for their book files. If they did this, I would buy the Kindle to be able to continue reading when away from my PC.

Otherwise, my 24" Wide Screen Monitor with much bigger fonts and better clarity than Kindle can ever dream of will be my method of choice for reading EVERYTHING.

Wow, that quote is trollworthy.

The Kindle is 167 DPI
Your 24" monitor is 100 DPI.

Eink displays are designed for readibility, LCD monitors are not. If you are not getting eye strain your fonts must be set huge. I have 20/15 vision and have actually owned a reader with an eink display. The difference between LCD and eink is as clear as night and day.

Alisa
11-30-2007, 06:41 PM
I have no comment on it being trollworthy, but I also have excellent vision and I can immediately feel the difference in comfort switching from an LCD to eink. I have a rather nice monitor, too.

bingle
11-30-2007, 07:20 PM
As long as we're speculating, though: Am I the only one who thinks Sony should just buy a majority stake in Borders and take a head-on run at Amazon?

I think that's a fight they'd lose. I'd much rather see Sony get out of the majority of content creation, and just go back to making excellent electronics that support all content. When they try to tie devices to specific content or formats is when they fail, historically.

I think they'd be best off making a general, beautiful ebook reader, that reads as many formats as they can possibly get licenses for, and then selling it as a platform to content vendors like Amazon.

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-30-2007, 11:21 PM
I think they'd be best off making a general, beautiful ebook reader, that reads as many formats as they can possibly get licenses for, and then selling it as a platform to content vendors like Amazon.

I think a LOT of people would've been happier if the Sony Reader was upgraded to read/convert Amazon e-books.

jmorton
11-30-2007, 11:42 PM
Jeez, I can't even imagine reading an entire book on an LCD screen! My eyes would be twitching in no time. I spend ten hours every day staring at computer screen for work. The ePaper is a nice break from this. In terms of contrast, it's still not as good as paper, but it's a heckuva lot better than trying to read books on a computer screen. I suspect that people who find it acceptable to read books on a computer don't read many books. When it comes to reading, I'll take reflective text any day.

Jim

Jim

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-01-2007, 05:35 PM
I suspect that people who find it acceptable to read books on a computer don't read many books.

Not at all. We've just bought good monitors. I can work at my PC and LCD screen all day long, reading or doing whatever else.

sirmaru
12-01-2007, 07:47 PM
Jeez, I can't even imagine reading an entire book on an LCD screen! I suspect that people who find it acceptable to read books on a computer don't read many books. When it comes to reading, I'll take reflective text any day.

Jim

Jim, I read 2 books per month using Microsoft Reader. I use a 24" HD LCD Monitor. I use Zinio Reader to read 4 magazines per week. I use Microsoft Outlook to read the NY Times daily. I've been reading on some sort of Monitor for business and pleasure for 20 years. I'm 72 years of age and still have 20/20 vision. I never get eye strain.

I may start reading Sony file books since they just slashed their book file prices by 20% to 40%. I recently downloaded their eBook Library.

I never buy paper books since I cannot adjust their fonts. With my PC everything I read can have their fonts adjusted.

I read a lot of old newspapers on www.newspaperarchive.com. None of those old newspapers are even available for non-PC readers.

The main reason for all this is that I am always multitasking. I may watch stock prices or news at the same time as I am reading a book. Non-PC readers do not allow for multitasking which is essential for me.

Liviu_5
12-01-2007, 09:32 PM
Jeez, I can't even imagine reading an entire book on an LCD screen! My eyes would be twitching in no time. I spend ten hours every day staring at computer screen for work. The ePaper is a nice break from this. In terms of contrast, it's still not as good as paper, but it's a heckuva lot better than trying to read books on a computer screen. I suspect that people who find it acceptable to read books on a computer don't read many books. When it comes to reading, I'll take reflective text any day.

Jim

Jim

It depends on the device, screen, fonts and colors. My 770 has ~230 dpi and with black background and yellow-orange fonts is excellent for reading, I much prefer it to the Sony due to better ergonomics, being much faster and having a nicer reading experience than paper.

Now that I am using my Itouch for pdf reading I also prefer it to anything else for that task being amazingly fast and easy to navigate though it still has some limitations. It has a bit less dpi (I think around 200) than 770 and the screen is smaller so for reflowable text the 770 is better, but for pdf's nothing portable beats the for me the fast easy navigation of the iTouch.

Steven Lyle Jordan
12-01-2007, 09:54 PM
My 770 has ~230 dpi and with black background and yellow-orange fonts is excellent for reading...

Really!?! Just goes to show you, that combination doesn't work at all for me! But black text on a light grey or blue BG does. And depending on the monitor, Cleartype sometimes improves readability, and sometimes it actually makes things worse.

Bottom line: Everybody's different, and there are plenty of us who don't have a problem reading on an LCD monitor... or on a PDA... or on a smartphone... all day long.

Liviu_5
12-01-2007, 11:47 PM
Really!?! Just goes to show you, that combination doesn't work at all for me! But black text on a light grey or blue BG does. And depending on the monitor, Cleartype sometimes improves readability, and sometimes it actually makes things worse.

Bottom line: Everybody's different, and there are plenty of us who don't have a problem reading on an LCD monitor... or on a PDA... or on a smartphone... all day long.

It depends on the device. On the pc I do not like the combination either for reading, though for most of the applications I work daily with I use black background and colored text.

But on 770 it works very nicely due to the finer screen. On the iTouch the primitive book reader (txt, html) can reverse colors only so you get white text on black background and I use that. In general black background is much easier on the eyes and quite nice actually.

schmidt349
12-02-2007, 01:47 PM
double post, sorry

schmidt349
12-02-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm 72 years of age and still have 20/20 vision.

That's really extraordinary. Something like 99% of the population suffers from severe presbyopia due to lens hardening by the age of 72. (hence the term "presbyopia," which literally means "old-sight")

But one thing you definitely aren't taking into account is age-related light sensitivity. By age 70 the pupil is basically unreactive except in extremely diverse lighting situations, and the amount of light reaching the retina is down three-quarters from what it was when you were age 20.

I think your strongly negative emotional reaction to e-readers like the Kindle may be driven by an unwillingness to accept that you're suffering from age-related visual decline. You can't see the Kindle or paper books very well at all because you can't get sufficient illumination to read them properly, as a result of which you get defensive and blame the problem on the books/devices rather than yourself.

(and before you say your reaction isn't emotional, explain why you started this thread with the title "MAJOR FLAW in the Amazon Kindle" -- the caps weren't exactly necessary, were they?)

Non-PC readers do not allow for multitasking which is essential for me.

Funny. Tell that to any professional academic in any discipline.

At your age, a nice big high-resolution LCD is an ideal reading device because it can overcome all age-related visual deficiencies. Something comparatively smaller with a high DPI is very nice for someone under 50 or used to wearing reading glasses because there's much less chance of eyestrain when you aren't reading with the aid of a CCFL backlight that's flickering at the mains frequency (or up to 85Hz, if you're lucky).

I guess what I'm trying to tell you is this: don't claim that the Kindle or any other electrophoretic display device is "flawed" because it doesn't meet your reading needs. "Flaws" mostly encompass engineering and manufacturing failures, like high numbers of stuck pixels, exploding batteries, poorly-designed user interfaces, badly-written firmware, inter alia.

sirmaru
12-02-2007, 04:36 PM
1. That's really extraordinary. Something like 99% of the population suffers from severe presbyopia due to lens hardening by the age of 72. (hence the term "presbyopia," which literally means "old-sight").

2. I think your strongly negative emotional reaction to e-readers like the Kindle may be driven by an unwillingness to accept that you're suffering from age-related visual decline. You can't see the Kindle or paper books very well at all because you can't get sufficient illumination to read them properly, as a result of which you get defensive and blame the problem on the books/devices rather than yourself.

3. At your age, a nice big high-resolution LCD is an ideal reading device because it can overcome all age-related visual deficiencies. Something comparatively smaller with a high DPI is very nice for someone under 50 or used to wearing reading glasses because there's much less chance of eyestrain when you aren't reading with the aid of a CCFL backlight that's flickering at the mains frequency (or up to 85Hz, if you're lucky).

4. I guess what I'm trying to tell you is this: don't claim that the Kindle or any other electrophoretic display device is "flawed" because it doesn't meet your reading needs.

1. My Ophpthamologist tells me I am the ONLY patient of his in my age group to still have 20/20 vision without compensating problems of cataracts or glaucoma.

2. You could be correct about this. However, why should I be disadvantaged by not using a 24" HD LCD Monitor which is very comfortable for me.

3. You are absolutely correct about this. However, I do not notice any flicker at all on my monitor and never get any eyestrain.

4. The "flaw" was not providing a PC reader as Sony DOES with the eBook Library to supplement the Sony PRS 505 Eprint Reader. I capitalized the word, "flaw," for effect since it totally blocks me from purchasing their book files for reading on my PC.

tklaus
12-02-2007, 04:54 PM
4. The "flaw" was not providing a PC reader as Sony DOES with the eBook Library to supplement the Sony PRS 505 Eprint Reader. I capitalized the word, "flaw," for effect since it totally blocks me from purchasing their book files for reading on my PC.

So, the "flaw" is really not with the Kindle at all, but rather with Amazon's choice to create a new e-book format that is only readable on their hardware.

schmidt349
12-02-2007, 07:15 PM
For my part, I do think the lack of a software reader for AZWs is really obnoxious. Still, this isn't really a "major flaw" inasmuch as it doesn't constitute a deviation from the expected performance of the device.

Damn, 72 years old and 20/20! If only I were 20/20 *now* :(

tompe
12-02-2007, 10:12 PM
The main reason for all this is that I am always multitasking. I may watch stock prices or news at the same time as I am reading a book. Non-PC readers do not allow for multitasking which is essential for me.

You cannot read fiction that way. One reason I bought a dedicated reader was to not be distracted by other things. When I read at my computer I always tend to check blogs or email or other things.

It seems that there is a big difference in what people read and how much in this forum and that might explain some of the difference in opinion.

sirmaru
12-06-2007, 02:47 PM
Go to this link to see why I did finally purchase the Sony 505 over the Kindle:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16969