View Full Version : Kindle Talk Forum


mdibella
11-19-2007, 02:19 PM
Amazon has already put up a forum (kindletalk.com) and one of the headers is 'Kindle vs Other E-Book Readers'.

The first posted question here (posted by the administrator no less!) is 'Does anyone own a Sony', and asks 'Why do you think it (the Sony reader) is not successful?'

Isn't this a bit like asking a politician 'When did you stop beating your wife?' I thought the Sony reader was doing well. Has anyone seen any official Sony info that indicates they consider it to be unsuccessful?

NatCh
11-19-2007, 02:32 PM
Nope, just CNET repeating the same (pre)conclusion. :shrug:

NatCh
11-19-2007, 02:34 PM
I love this:The Sony readers are everywhere but have not had much success.Sounds like he's saying that the Sony Readers are unsuccessful in spite of what he terms as being "everywhere" -- so ... what does he consider "success" if it's not widespread adoption? :laugh4:

mdibella
11-19-2007, 02:40 PM
I know, that was my own reaction. If I were a lawyer I'd say 'assumes facts not in evidence'. 8-)

Hey, the Kindle looks nice (though I think the Sony is better designed from an ergonomic perspective) and I will likely end up owning a Kindle even though I already have a Sony 505.

It's just a shame that Amazon has to start out playing games like this. If the Kindle is truly competetive, it should stand on its own without needing forum administrators to plant silly questions like this one.

delphidb96
11-19-2007, 02:53 PM
Amazon has already put up a forum (kindletalk.com) and one of the headers is 'Kindle vs Other E-Book Readers'.

The first posted question here (posted by the administrator no less!) is 'Does anyone own a Sony', and asks 'Why do you think it (the Sony reader) is not successful?'

Isn't this a bit like asking a politician 'When did you stop beating your wife?' I thought the Sony reader was doing well. Has anyone seen any official Sony info that indicates they consider it to be unsuccessful?

WEEEEeeeeeellll... I *think* the PRS is *not* successful on Amazon *because* Amazon chose to stop effectively marketing it once they chose to build that disgusting piece of cr*p, the Kindle! Of course, this is just my humble opinion. :D

And has anyone noticed the .AZW format ebooks *must* be downloaded directly to the Kindle? If you don't *have* a Kindle, you can't *download* them! (Which means that - even at the inflated $9.99 price - no one can download them to a PC, rename the extension to .mobi and read them in Mobipocket. Waitaminit!?! Did I just let slip that .azw files are merely .mobi files with a different extension?!? OOPS!!! :) ) Sitting out here with an .azw file posted elsewhere but open on my Cybook Gen3, right now. :D No wonder they only allow the .azw titles to be downloaded through Whispernet!

Derek

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 02:56 PM
I am surprised they would make such a statement. In fact, first I couldn't believe this was an officially sanctioned Amazon site; but a whois on the domain reveals it's indeed Amazon owned.

JSWolf
11-19-2007, 02:57 PM
Won't matter that AZW format might be PRC with a new extension if you can't buy them other then owning a Kindle

NatCh
11-19-2007, 03:13 PM
I'm still waiting for my registration e-mail to come through, just so I can ask him how he defines "successful." :evilgrin:

DaleDe
11-19-2007, 08:06 PM
Won't matter that AZW format might be PRC with a new extension if you can't buy them other then owning a Kindle

AZW has a different protection than Mobi so DRM books will not play from one to the other so only non-DRM can play that trick. Although it might well work for samples.

Dale

NatCh
11-19-2007, 10:08 PM
AZW has a different protection than MobiWhere did you see that tidbit? I've missed it, but I've had to do a lot of skimming. :shrug:

DaleDe
11-19-2007, 10:19 PM
Where did you see that tidbit? I've missed it, but I've had to do a lot of skimming. :shrug:

They say in the manual. They say Mobi DRM will not work so it has to be different. If that is not enough someone in the Kindle forum has already purchased a Kindle book and tried to read it with the Windows MobiReader. It detected the book but would not pass the DRM.

Dale

wallcraft
11-19-2007, 10:26 PM
Until someone gets a Kindle and some downloaded DRM-ridden .AZW files I don't think we can know for sure, but I assume .AZW is identical to .MOBI. However, MOBI DRM is PID-based and the PID is presumably not easily available on the Kindle (since the Amazon servers already have the PID). Without the PID it won't be possible to make secure MOBI files for the Kindle.

One thing to check will be bytes 61-68 of the file. If this is BOOKMOBI, then this is evidence (although not definitive) that the file is using the standard MobiPocket format.

Edit: The DRM-free KindleUsersGuide.azw is a BOOKMOBI file.

kovidgoyal
11-20-2007, 12:46 AM
From this discussion I gather that the binary PRC format has not been reverse engineered?

Brooks
11-20-2007, 02:13 AM
Just to clear things up...

Kindletalk.com is neither owned by nor affiliated with Amazon.com. We utilize Amazonís EC2 service to host our forums, which may explain why some users thought we were connected in some way with Amazon.

Kindletalk.com exists simply as an unbiased online community for Kindle users.

Thanks

Alexander Turcic
11-20-2007, 03:50 AM
Just to clear things up...

Kindletalk.com is neither owned by nor affiliated with Amazon.com. We utilize Amazonís EC2 service to host our forums, which may explain why some users thought we were connected in some way with Amazon.

Kindletalk.com exists simply as an unbiased online community for Kindle users.

Thanks

Thanks for the clarification, Brooks. Best to you. --Alex

tribble
11-20-2007, 04:30 AM
They say in the manual. They say Mobi DRM will not work so it has to be different. If that is not enough someone in the Kindle forum has already purchased a Kindle book and tried to read it with the Windows MobiReader. It detected the book but would not pass the DRM.

Dale

Thats not correct. You just might not know the device ID of the kindle, so you cant register the kindle with any other mobipocket retailer.

It could be though, that the DRM is different, but i doubt it.

ecccoman
11-20-2007, 08:59 AM
Kindle's handling of Word Docs is a non-starter for me. I review quite a few Word Docs on my Sony reader when I travel. Can't do that unless I export the documents to Amazon for translation. My employer would be very upset if I exported internal documents to Amazon for translation.

I read their user guide and I don't see a way around it

slayda
11-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Just to clear things up...

Kindletalk.com is neither owned by nor affiliated with Amazon.com. We utilize Amazonís EC2 service to host our forums, which may explain why some users thought we were connected in some way with Amazon.

Kindletalk.com exists simply as an unbiased online community for Kindle users.

Thanks

Unbiased??!!!:smack:

Rocketime
11-20-2007, 12:28 PM
Kindle's handling of Word Docs is a non-starter for me. I review quite a few Word Docs on my Sony reader when I travel. Can't do that unless I export the documents to Amazon for translation. My employer would be very upset if I exported internal documents to Amazon for translation.

I read their user guide and I don't see a way around it

This is the major reason I'm sticking with the my 505. I do the same thing as well as drop all my saved emails into word for perusal on my reader at a later date.

DaleDe
11-20-2007, 12:31 PM
From this discussion I gather that the binary PRC format has not been reverse engineered?

It certainly has. Book Designer can read and convert PRC files so long as they are the original version. Mobi has a new compression method and files in that format has not been decoded but the original is well known. I put a link the wiki to a description. The original Mobi format is PalmDoc with some html constructs added.

Dale

DaleDe
11-20-2007, 12:32 PM
Kindle's handling of Word Docs is a non-starter for me. I review quite a few Word Docs on my Sony reader when I travel. Can't do that unless I export the documents to Amazon for translation. My employer would be very upset if I exported internal documents to Amazon for translation.

I read their user guide and I don't see a way around it

It is really easy. Just get MobiReader for the PC and it will convert your files to mobi format which will be read natively on the Kindle.

Dale

DaleDe
11-20-2007, 12:36 PM
Thats not correct. You just might not know the device ID of the kindle, so you cant register the kindle with any other mobipocket retailer.

It could be though, that the DRM is different, but i doubt it.

What is not correct in what I said? If it can't be read then it is different by definition. What the difference is was not stated in my post. It is possible that the device id method is different and the differences are small but it won't work.

Dale

kovidgoyal
11-20-2007, 12:53 PM
It certainly has. Book Designer can read and convert PRC files so long as they are the original version. Mobi has a new compression method and files in that format has not been decoded but the original is well known. I put a link the wiki to a description. The original Mobi format is PalmDoc with some html constructs added.

Dale

Thanks, that's good to hear. I was investigating the feasibility of writing an open source converter and having to reverse engineer another binary format would make it beyond my levels of ambition.

NatCh
11-20-2007, 02:13 PM
If it can't be read then it is different by definition.Weeeeell ... I wouldn't consider it to be a different file type if the only reason that it can't be read is because it's not registered to that device's PID. It's kinda like if I password protected an MSWord file and sent it to you, you couldn't open it without the password, but it's not because you computer can't handle the file or that the file is different, you just don't have the key to it. :shrug:

For instance, John and Jane (hypothetical people) both have Sony Readers, Jane downloads Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy from the Sony ConnStore, but while John can load Jane's copy onto his Reader, he can't open it there because Jane's copy is keyed to her account, and John's Reader is not. The DRM has prevented one from opening the same on identical hardware because the file is registered to a different account.

I'm a bit shaky on how mobi's DRM works, but I gather that the files are locked to specific devices by way of the device ID key. So in order to read a DRMed Mobi file on a device (such as a Cybook) I would have to register that device with the seller and download a file that is keyed to that device.

We've got pretty good evidence that AZW files are mobi files with a different extension -- I wouldn't say conclusive evidence yet, but pretty good evidence.

What we don't know is if the DRM that they're using for Kindle follows the same scheme as what's used on mobi files. They say the DRM won't work, but Marketing folks have been known to be ... less than entirely accurate, shall we say? They may just want us all to believe that it won't work, or it may really not work. If it in fact is not a different DRM system, then all we'd need to read a mobi file from say, fictionwise, on a Kindle would be to suss out the device ID for that Kindle, register it with fictionwise, download a mobi book that's keyed to that file, change the extension to AZW, and load it up.

That's the theory, anyway, and it fits the few observed facts we have. Whether it will actually work that way or not and how tricky getting a Kindle's device ID might be, those things we don't know. :shrug:

igorsk
11-20-2007, 06:42 PM
When I get mine I'll see about making it work with Mobi books. Though I'm not sure if I'll be able to share the details here because of MobileRead's DRM policy...

HarryT
11-23-2007, 05:16 AM
I'm a bit shaky on how mobi's DRM works, but I gather that the files are locked to specific devices by way of the device ID key. So in order to read a DRMed Mobi file on a device (such as a Cybook) I would have to register that device with the seller and download a file that is keyed to that device.


That's correct. Every Mobi device has a unique ID - a 10 character alphanumeric string called a "PID" (I'm not sure what the "P" stands for!). When you buy a Mobi book, you enter the PID on the web site you're buying from and the web site encrypts the book for your specific device. You're generally allowed to register up to four different PIDs on a site, and the book can then be read on any of those devices.

If the Kindle does use standard MobiPocket encryption (which seems highly likely), then the odds are that it just has an internal PID which is being used for the encryption. If someone finds a method of getting at this internal PID, it could then be entered at any MobiPocket bookstore to generate a book which could be read on the Kindle.

What probably CANNOT be done, however, is to read Kindle books on other MobiPocket devices, because the book encryption is done by the seller (ie Amazon) and there would be no way to enter the PIDs of other Mobi devices on Amazon, unless they specifically decide to open up that capability.