View Full Version : Leaked Kindle and accessories prices, links, images


Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 04:59 AM
Update: added some closeup photos

While Amazon did a pretty good job hiding most signs of the Amazon Kindle, some impudent digging of yours truly revealed the following links (which still may or may not result in 404 errors). As you see there is nothing special about the accessories offered for the Kindle, except that we're happy to report that its battery is replaceable!


Amazon Kindle (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FI73MA?ie=UTF8&tag=mobileread-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000FI73MA) (other (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000FI73MA?tag=mobileread-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=am1&creativeASIN=B000FI73MA&adid=0YN7G1CMDZQZB4J47SWC&)) (Price: $399)
Amazon Kindle USB Cable (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I6N6M0?ie=UTF8&tag=mobileread-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000I6N6M0) (other (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000I6N6M0?tag=mobileread-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=am1&creativeASIN=B000I6N6M0&adid=1VSN3WFHNWBKPSYFWWXP&)) (Price: $9.99)
Amazon Kindle Battery (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I6P1UA?ie=UTF8&tag=mobileread-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000I6P1UA) (other (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000I6P1UA?tag=mobileread-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=am1&creativeASIN=B000I6P1UA&adid=1AAMR2NN7EVTBGEXFME0&)) (Price: $19.99)
Amazon Kindle Power Adapter (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I6JZGQ?ie=UTF8&tag=mobileread-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000I6JZGQ) (other (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000I6JZGQ?tag=mobileread-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=am1&creativeASIN=B000I6JZGQ&adid=13B06T0SC2J1CNJ1Y6NJ&)) (Price: $14.99)
Amazon Kindle Book Cover (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I6P1I2?ie=UTF8&tag=mobileread-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000I6P1I2) (other (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000I6P1I2?tag=mobileread-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=am1&creativeASIN=B000I6P1I2&adid=1HZW6DTVQR95FB32R84F&)) (Price: $24.99)
Kindle Books (http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sv_kinh_1/103-3906418-8179856?ie=UTF8&node=154606011) (currently 91,324 results)
Kindle Newspapers (http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sv_kinc_2/103-3906418-8179856?ie=UTF8&node=165389011) (currently 8 (US), 1 (France), 1 (Germany), 1 (Ireland))
Kindle Blogs (http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sv_kinc_3/103-3906418-8179856?ie=UTF8&node=241647011) (currently 308 results)
Kindle Magazines (http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sv_kinc_4/103-3906418-8179856?ie=UTF8&node=241646011) (currently 8 results)
Kindle Management Panel (http://www.amazon.com/gp/digital/fiona/manage/ref=sv_kinc_5/103-3906418-8179856)
Kindle Support (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=sv_kinc_6/103-3906418-8179856?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200127470)

Tom Swift
11-19-2007, 05:23 AM
Cool find. I wonder if they will charge for the newspapers? Considering most papers offer their online content for free, charging for them does not make much sense. I can see a monthly subscription working but not charging for daily newspapers.

Don't understand the blogs though. Surely they don't plan on charging for them.

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 05:25 AM
Don't understand the blogs though. Surely they don't plan on charging for them.

Alas, they are. You can subscribe to selected blogs, which cost either 99 cents or $1.99 a month per blog (source: Newsweek).

Tom Swift
11-19-2007, 05:31 AM
Bah. And of course they will deny the user access to their favourite blog, just like the Sony Reader. Tiresome. They better make this thing easily hacked.

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 05:32 AM
It's good to see that they offer replacement batteries...:grin2:

I just tried the "Kindle" and "Kindle Edition" search strings on Amazon.de and found that it now gives me the iRex Iliad as first search result for "Kindle" which is new...and perhaps good news...but still no search results for the "Kindle Edition" search.

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 05:43 AM
I just tried the "Kindle" and "Kindle Edition" search strings on Amazon.de and found that it now gives me the iRex Iliad as first search result for "Kindle" which is new...

I saw that too... looks like someone tagged the iLiad with "Kindle" :D

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 05:43 AM
Hmm...look at the Kindle charger (thanks for the pictures Alexander!) and tell me...does it look like one of those international ones where you can exchange the plugs? I think it does..but it might be wishful thinking.. ;)

HarryT
11-19-2007, 05:47 AM
As long as it's some "standard" plug connector, supplying your own charger shouldn't be a problem. Hopefully it'll charge via USB too - most modern devices seem to.

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 05:51 AM
@HarryT

I'm not exactly worried about not being able to charge it actually...it's more that I'm still hoping for an international release...and supplying a charger with exchangeable pins might make that seem slightly more realistic...
Also, it looks like there are newspapers from outside the US on board as well...

Arek_W
11-19-2007, 05:52 AM
will they allow selling books for overseas markets?? can also someone explain what is this EVDO??
thx

atesta
11-19-2007, 05:54 AM
So when is this announcement event going to happen (as in what time Monday?)

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 05:59 AM
Well, it looks ike this might be turning into a nice day...the Kindle is coming, the sun is shining...and I'm going outside to enjoy the sun now... ;)

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 06:01 AM
So when is this announcement event going to happen (as in what time Monday?)

The conference will take place today @ 9:30am (NYC, local time).

Rhys
11-19-2007, 06:08 AM
Browsing the U.S. Amazon store you can see 120,000 or so books (mostly with blank placeholders) listed when searching for 'Kindle'. The fact that no such placeholders appear on the U.K. site strongly suggests that we're not in for some wedge-shaped goodness today.

It's interesting to see that the Kindle link provided in the original posting does seem to allow orders to be placed. Best of luck to anyone who takes advantage of that.

Thanks for taking the time to root out this information Alexander. Now if only someone could find out which formats the Kindle will support then I could stop browsing the web and get back to work.

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 06:21 AM
It's interesting to see that the Kindle link provided in the original posting does seem to allow orders to be placed. Best of luck to anyone who takes advantage of that.

They must have changed that within the last hour (before that, there was no order link).

Hmm... very tempting... :rolleyes:

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 06:46 AM
Also, it looks like there are newspapers from outside the US on board as well...

I agree; why would Amazon form partnerships with foreign dailies if they didn't plan to sell it abroad. Though obvious something has to be changed since EVDO isn't going to work everywhere (e.g. in Germany).

Nate the great
11-19-2007, 07:31 AM
They sold me one! I'm gonna get it tomorrow!

dugbug
11-19-2007, 08:03 AM
at least its no longer commodore beige :)

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 08:19 AM
@nate

are you serious...or is this about that lamp thing again...:smash:

Nate the great
11-19-2007, 08:28 AM
@nate

are you serious...or is this about that lamp thing again...:smash:

No joke. I ordered "Kindle: Amazon's New Wireless Reading Device".

igorsk
11-19-2007, 08:30 AM
Someone has been following Mobileread?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7101392.stm

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 08:35 AM
Great news then Nate...I just discovered your other thread...^^

did it give you any indication as to when it should be ready for shipping?

Nate the great
11-19-2007, 08:40 AM
Great news then Nate...I just discovered your other thread...^^

did it give you any indication as to when it should be ready for shipping?

Theoretically, it should arrive tomorrow. But there is a chance that the order might be canceled; they might cancel all sales that occur before the announcement.

I'll update y'all as I get more info from Amazon.

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 09:00 AM
Someone has been following Mobileread?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7101392.stm

A link back would have been nice. Oh well. :rolleyes:

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 09:00 AM
No joke. I ordered "Kindle: Amazon's New Wireless Reading Device".

Nate, I cannot wait to hear from your first-hands experience ;)

The GreatGonzo
11-19-2007, 09:09 AM
I wonder how difficult it would be for Amazon to tweak their newspaper subscriptions and delivery so that an Iliad owner could partake.... of course, whether or not that's something they'd want to do is a different question.

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 09:15 AM
I just ordered one, too! No, wait. It's just that lamp thing again. Sorry.

Seriously, you guys are great! Excellent job, Alexander. And congratulations to you, Nate. :) :) :)

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 09:20 AM
at least its no longer commodore beige :)

Hey, I still love my Amiga! There might even have been a time when the beige color was considered modern :cool:

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 09:30 AM
Also, it looks like there are newspapers from outside the US on board as well...

In another thread (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=116604#post116604), TallMomof2 posted the e-mail he she received from Amazon upon ordering the Kindle. It reveals that the two foreign newspapers will be Le Monde (FR), and Frankfurter Allgemeine (DE).

Nate the great
11-19-2007, 09:35 AM
In another thread (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?p=116604#post116604), TallMomof2 posted the e-mail he received from Amazon upon ordering the Kindle. It reveals that the two foreign newspapers will be Le Monde (FR), and Frankfurter Allgemeine (DE).

:unafraid:I strongly doubt that TallMomof2 is a "he".

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 09:37 AM
:unafraid:I strongly doubt that TallMomof2 is a "he".

Oops! I beg your pardon! :o

TallMomof2
11-19-2007, 09:48 AM
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. :grin2:
http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/idog.jpg

Or in my case, a cat.

ashalan
11-19-2007, 09:50 AM
Tried ordering with a Swiss mail adress:

*** We're sorry. This item can't be shipped to your selected destination. You may either change the shipping address or delete the item from your order by changing its quantity to 0 and clicking the update button below. ( See geographical restrictions.) ***

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/shamela/kindle_order_switzerland.jpg

Of course, I have seen this message before (whenever I tried order any electronical device from Amazon).

Only remains to hope that local shops (.de, .co.uk) will offer the device for sale as well. If not, people outside Northern America are pretty much out of luck. (Of course you can have somebody order it for you or use services like myus.com, but to me this not really an option)

wallcraft
11-19-2007, 10:38 AM
Has anyone been able to download the User's Guide or the Manual from Amazon? Near the bottom of the Kindle web page:

Product Details
Kindle User's Guide (preinstalled on device) [PDF] | About Your Kindle Manual (included in box) [PDF] The links just took me to a similar Kindle web page.

Nate the great
11-19-2007, 10:41 AM
Has anyone been able to download the User's Guide or the Manual from Amazon? Near the bottom of the Kindle web page:

The links just took me to a similar Kindle web page.

"About your Kindle" is the PDF that's been floating around here.

wgrimm
11-19-2007, 10:51 AM
My prediction- the Kindle will crash and burn. Sales will be dismal- just like for the Sony reader. And the reasons have been around ever since the Rocketbook/GEM flop- but no one is considering them. Yet again, I see a device that the manufacturer thinks will make them rich from "content sales." Yet again, a comparison is made to the Apple Ipod- hey, this reader will "do the same thing for books as the Ipod did for music." Where did I hear that line before? Oh, yeah, in an article about the Sony Reader.

Sorry, unless this thing comes with a High-speed book scanner, it will do no such thing. I have hundreds of music cd's I can rip to my ipod. This reader doesn't let me rip my paper books to its format- I won't even be able to read my ereader books on it, probably.

Hype and more hype, no substance. Gem 1150 mark 2.

JSWolf
11-19-2007, 10:53 AM
ok folks, I have some rather bad news to deliver....

Jon, we currently do not show a Kindle registered to your Amazon account. Kindle Editions are only available for Kindles.

Meaning the Kindle Editions are only for the Kindle and you can only get them wirelessly.

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 11:05 AM
Now this is ugly. You can't buy ebooks from Amazon to read except on a Kindle. It won't support protected Mobipocket (in fact, the Mobipocket web site looks the same today as it did months ago - nothing about the Kindle). And the only delivery to the Kindle is EVDO unless there is some way to convert to the supported .AZW format on your PC. Yes, I hope they crash and burn. :(

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 11:08 AM
Well, the manual was easy to convert..I just changed the filename from .azw to .prc but I doubt it's going to be that easy for DRM protected books...

tribble
11-19-2007, 11:09 AM
I think its a bad business decision aswell, but on the other hand, Amazon is big enough to be able to do just that. I am just wondering, why the publishers let them lock in customers.

tribble
11-19-2007, 11:11 AM
Well, the manual was easy to convert..I just changed the filename from .azw to .prc but I doubt it's going to be that easy for DRM protected books...

I assume they are using mobipocket formats with a different file extension. But since you cannot find out your kindles ID, you cannot purchase from any other mobipocket retailer. Nor can you buy a book for a non kindle ereader, since they do not allow you to register the device. So basically you have mobipocket files with no way to access them.

TallMomof2
11-19-2007, 11:18 AM
When I get mine I will see if it'll read the many non-DRM Mobipocket books I bought online. I've been able to read them on unregistered devices so I should be able to read them on the Kindle.

astra
11-19-2007, 11:19 AM
ok folks, I have some rather bad news to deliver....



Meaning the Kindle Editions are only for the Kindle and you can only get them wirelessly.

Guys, don't make any conclusions just yet.
It the first day! They have just announced the product. Quite possible that in 1 week time when service is up and running, free of the very first obvious glitches the overall picture will look a bit different from what we can see today.

JSWolf
11-19-2007, 11:26 AM
I'm not making any conclusions. Why would Amazon not want to sell content for their reader? It makes sense. They bought Mobipocket so they would have content for the Kindle. If we want Mobi content otherwise, we go elsewhere.

astra
11-19-2007, 11:32 AM
Why would Amazon not want to sell content for their reader?

Because it not "up-and-running" yet? :)
Just like finding kindle on amazon. When Nate has already placed and order for one, I still could not find it on amazon.com. Maybe in a day or two things will clear up.

Another thing, why did you say
you can only get them wirelessly?

Cannot you get the same service via USB?

dugbug
11-19-2007, 11:34 AM
amazon will sell more ebooks today than all other ebook sales in history

wgrimm
11-19-2007, 11:36 AM
Guys, don't make any conclusions just yet.
It the first day! They have just announced the product. Quite possible that in 1 week time when service is up and running, free of the very first obvious glitches the overall picture will look a bit different from what we can see today.

Well, I can certainly draw one valid conclusion- this reader is PUG-UGLY! I mean, seriously, this clunky thing is below undergraduate design-class quality. Did design for this device get outsourced to BFE or Somalia?

Even the Rocketbook, with its capability to read html and download websites looks better than this turkey. But I guess it is an appropriate time to bring a turkey to market <G>.

tribble
11-19-2007, 11:36 AM
amazon will sell more ebooks today than all other ebook sales in history
Well, thats a bold statement, i wonder if that is true.
It would definately be true, if Kindle Editions would be available for more readers than just the Kindle.

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 11:38 AM
Did anyone follow the comments on Engadget...it did not sound like most people there were overwhelmed...

tsgreer
11-19-2007, 11:39 AM
Well, I can certainly draw one valid conclusion- this reader is PUG-UGLY!

Hey I have a pug and she isn't ugly! :disappoin

dugbug
11-19-2007, 11:40 AM
Well, thats a bold statement, i wonder if that is true.


Yes, I live on the edge :)


Never has an ebook reader been so highly visible. You wouldn't know a sony reader existed unless you were explicitly looking for something like it. Millions visit amazon's home page daily, and its now in their face nov/dec.

-d

Nate the great
11-19-2007, 11:42 AM
Hey I have a pug and she isn't ugly! :disappoin

I also have a Pug, and she is ugly. :)

da_jane
11-19-2007, 11:44 AM
I'm emailing publishers but I've heard back from one, Harlequin, and they aren't making any ebooks exclusive to the Kindle. I bet that is going to be true for most publishers, if not all.

tribble
11-19-2007, 11:44 AM
Yes, I live on the edge :)


Never has an ebook reader been so highly visible. You wouldn't know a sony reader existed unless you were explicitly looking for something like it. Millions visit amazon's home page daily, and its now in their face nov/dec.

-d

True, but since, the price is fairly high, i doubt there will be more eBooks sold today by Amazon than all ebook sales before. While the visibility to the broad public is great, it is still too expensive. And i too would like to buy the NYT Bestsellers to read them on my iLiad or CyBook. So i assume, the ebook sales will not explode that much.

mdibella
11-19-2007, 11:47 AM
I'm not sure why they insisted in putting that large keyboard on it. Yes, I know there are features that use the keyboard, but I for one carry an EBook reader in order to read ebooks. My Sony reader is nicely sized for that purpose. I am concerned that the keyboard will interfere with comfortable reading.

Alisa
11-19-2007, 11:51 AM
I'm not sure why they insisted in putting that large keyboard on it. Yes, I know there are features that use the keyboard, but I for one carry an EBook reader in order to read ebooks. My Sony reader is nicely sized for that purpose. I am concerned that the keyboard will interfere with comfortable reading.

I agree. I'd rather see a separate little USB keyboard and have a reader the size of the Sony.

igorsk
11-19-2007, 11:53 AM
Did anyone follow the comments on Engadget...it did not sound like most people there were overwhelmed...
You're a master of understatement.
That said, Sony readers weren't really welcomed there either.

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 11:54 AM
You're a master of understatement.
That said, Sony readers weren't really welcomed there either.

LOL. I think they were more positive about the second Reader incarnation, but my memory could serve me wrong.

Alisa
11-19-2007, 11:57 AM
You're a master of understatement.
That said, Sony readers weren't really welcomed there either.

It seems to me most comments on readers are from people who don't get the technology and probably aren't big book readers. Sadly there were folks there today that do get it and were still disappointed in Amazon's pricing, design and anti-competitve tactics.

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 11:57 AM
I'm emailing publishers but I've heard back from one, Harlequin, and they aren't making any ebooks exclusive to the Kindle. I bet that is going to be true for most publishers, if not all.

Now that is the only good news I have heard today. I certainly hope your bet turns out correct. I'll certainly continue to monitor Sony's list of offerings.

CCDMan
11-19-2007, 11:57 AM
Meaning the Kindle Editions are only for the Kindle and you can only get them wirelessly

I am still not clear on whether you can also download content to PC and upload via USB - lots of rural areas do not have EVDO. The manual is very ambiguous. This would be critical for me as we are one of those areas.

jharker
11-19-2007, 12:30 PM
I don't have a Kindle yet, but based on the demo video and reading Amazon's web page here are a few of my reactions and guesses: The fee for getting "free" Internet content like blogs and the NY Times is meant to cover two things: the cost of wireless delivery via EVDO, and the cost of converting the NY Times to the Kindle page size. I think basically you're paying for convenience.

If publishers haven't signed exclusivity deals, it's likely that the ebooks they're making available in Kindle format via Amazon will also show up in Mobipocket format elsewhere. Once Amazon makes publishers create e-books, the publishers will want to sell them everywhere, which will be good news for other e-reader users in general.

A quick price comparison: Amazon and Mobipocket offer the same selection of books by Neal Stephenson. However, the Kindle books run $1-$4 cheaper than Mobipocket.

I'm not sure why they insisted in putting that large keyboard on it. Yes, I know there are features that use the keyboard, but I for one carry an EBook reader in order to read ebooks. My Sony reader is nicely sized for that purpose. I am concerned that the keyboard will interfere with comfortable reading.I think the keyboard (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200127480&#keyboard) is there to make it really easy to get new books. IMHO it's a lot better than the iLiad's on-screen keyboard, which is slow and hard to use. I think you'll be surprised by how totally slick the Kindle is. I agree the form factor could be sleeker, though.

I think that the fast-response side selection bar (watch the video to see it) is brilliant, as it makes the UI experience quick and easy. Combined with the keyboard and EVDO content delivery, it makes the Kindle a vast improvement in usability over any other reader.

Formats and USB: From this page (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200137060), you CAN download from Amazon and upload from your computer using a USB cable. In addition to Kindle format, the Kindle will open .mobi, .prc, and .txt files, as well as mp3 and Audible (aa) files.

My big question: will the Kindle at some point support PDF files?
I think the Kindle will be the first killer app of e-books. They've worked around every limitation of e-ink and made it really easy to use. iRex and Sony are going to have to step up fast to match this. As a devoted iLiad owner, I have to say that the Kindle blows it out of the water for convenience and ease of use. Everything iLiad owners have wanted for a while (dictionary, bookmarking, etc.) the Kindle does out of the box.

Very nice work by Amazon. They can fix the form factor in version 2 next year. :)

igorsk
11-19-2007, 12:31 PM
I am still not clear on whether you can also download contentto PC and upload via USB - lots of rural areas do not have EVDO. The manual is very ambiguous. This would be critical for me as we are one of those areas.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200127480&#usb

If Kindle uses a wireless connection, why can it connect to my computer?

You don't need a computer to use Kindle. However, your Kindle comes with a USB cable and is compatible with Windows or Macintosh computer systems so you can download files directly from your computer to your Kindle. This feature is useful if you're out of wireless coverage or downloading audio files. You can also use the USB connection to remove files from Kindle's memory and store copies on your computer.

bandsaw
11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
The FAQ says you can choose to download to your PC (or MAC), but your Kindle must be registered to do so. It doesn't say whether or not you can register your Kindle via your PC though. Definite drawback to anyone living outside the US!



"I am still not clear on whether you can also download contentto PC and upload via USB - lots of rural areas do not have EVDO. The manual is very ambiguous. This would be critical for me as we are one of those areas."

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
Browsing the U.S. Amazon store you can see 120,000 or so books (mostly with blank placeholders) listed when searching for 'Kindle'. The fact that no such placeholders appear on the U.K. site strongly suggests that we're not in for some wedge-shaped goodness today.

It's interesting to see that the Kindle link provided in the original posting does seem to allow orders to be placed. Best of luck to anyone who takes advantage of that.

Thanks for taking the time to root out this information Alexander. Now if only someone could find out which formats the Kindle will support then I could stop browsing the web and get back to work.Welcome aboard Rhys!
Nice hat! :grin:

at least its no longer commodore beige :) Black would have been better and easyer for the eyes.

My prediction- the Kindle will crash and burn. Sales will be dismal- just like for the Sony reader. And the reasons have been around ever since the Rocketbook/GEM flop- but no one is considering them. Yet again, I see a device that the manufacturer thinks will make them rich from "content sales." Yet again, a comparison is made to the Apple Ipod- hey, this reader will "do the same thing for books as the Ipod did for music." Where did I hear that line before? Oh, yeah, in an article about the Sony Reader.

Sorry, unless this thing comes with a High-speed book scanner, it will do no such thing. I have hundreds of music cd's I can rip to my ipod. This reader doesn't let me rip my paper books to its format- I won't even be able to read my ereader books on it, probably.

Hype and more hype, no substance. Gem 1150 mark 2. I don't agree with the failure comment yet. They propose very inexpensive books on the little movie, they say $9.99 for a $29.99 book, that's nice when you compare to most places.
The fact that you can access books without a computer will make it very popular I'm sure.

I'm not sure why they insisted in putting that large keyboard on it. Yes, I know there are features that use the keyboard, but I for one carry an EBook reader in order to read ebooks. My Sony reader is nicely sized for that purpose. I am concerned that the keyboard will interfere with comfortable reading. They say in the same movie that you will have access to some blogs, the keyboard will be handy for that.

@Alex
Hey! Will MR be accessible through this? It would be cool to blog through it!

CCDMan
11-19-2007, 12:42 PM
You don't need a computer to use Kindle. However, your Kindle comes with a USB cable and is compatible with Windows or Macintosh computer systems so you can download files directly from your computer to your Kindle. This feature is useful if you're out of wireless coverage or downloading audio files. You can also use the USB connection to remove files from Kindle's memory and store copies on your computer.

OK, thanks. My only remaining concern is that the only simple unencrypted format is .txt.
I read a lot of BAEN books and would like to see .rtf.

Alexander Turcic
11-19-2007, 12:43 PM
@Alex
Hey! Will MR be accessible through this? It would be cool to blog through it!

I am afraid we are not among the first chosen blogs whose RSS feed will be carried. :( Maybe, if enough people would request it, ... ;)

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-19-2007, 12:44 PM
amazon will sell more ebooks today than all other ebook sales in history

Nope.

Think about it: Anyone who even orders a Kindle won't get it for a few days. Who's going to order e-books for a device you don't have yet?

jharker
11-19-2007, 12:45 PM
Hey, cool-- I was just watching the intro video at Amazon, and they say the Kindle comes with free wireless access to Wikipedia!

CCDMan
11-19-2007, 12:47 PM
This is amusing:

Most expensive Kindle Book: "Growth Strategies for Software Companies" $1,079.96

Cheapest Kindle Book: " Chemoton Theory: Theory of Living Systems" $0.01

Both on my reading list, of course <g>

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 12:48 PM
I am afraid we are not among the first chosen blogs whose RSS feed will be carried. :( Maybe, if enough people would request it, ... ;)The Kindle having a keyboard would make it possible to blog instead of just reading RSS. Think it's possible?

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-19-2007, 12:49 PM
I am afraid we are not among the first chosen blogs whose RSS feed will be carried. :( Maybe, if enough people would request it, ... ;)

They probably won't include Mobileread, considering how many of us have called the Kindle fugly...

Seriously, though, this site also supports and advocates other methods of mobile reading, including other devices, and other stores besides Amazon. They may not want to support the competition!

Not to mention the odd use of words like "hacking" and "unrestrictive"...

romix
11-19-2007, 12:50 PM
Big Brother Bezos

Glanced through the Kindle documentation.

As far as I could see, no support for PDF.

Furthermore all YOUR own content (docs, pdfs, email messages) that you want to install on your Kindle will have to go through Amazon for conversion (for a small fee) and transmission via Whispernet.
Great, Amazon having access to all the stuff (apart from MP3's) I want on MY Kindle.

It gets worse, the device sends home all sorts of information about your use of your Kindle. From the terms of service:

<ToS>
Information Received. The Device Software will provide Amazon with data about your Device and its interaction with the Service (such as available memory, up-time, log files and signal strength) and information related to the content on your Device and your use of it (such as automatic bookmarking of the last page read and content deletions from the Device). Annotations, bookmarks, notes, highlights, or similar markings you make in your Device are backed up through the Service. Information we receive is subject to the Amazon.com Privacy Notice.
</ToS>

Mind you, it says such as, which means they may collect much more.
What do they/can they do with the data, well read Amazon's privacy policy. Does not make me happy.

Some aspects of the Kindle are great, but the above will prevent me from getting one.

TadW
11-19-2007, 12:50 PM
Seriously, though, this site also supports and advocates other methods of mobile reading, including other devices, and other stores besides Amazon. They may not want to support the competition!

You think MR has been too Sony-friendly, and too Amazon-unfriendly? That would be a very cheap shot for not including our community ;(

fryandlaurie
11-19-2007, 12:52 PM
Alexander is already working on redirecting user interest from the Kindle discussion threads on the Amazon homepage to mobileread :)

CCDMan
11-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Furthermore all YOUR own content (docs, pdfs, email messages) that you want to install on your Kindle will have to go through Amazon for conversion (for a small fee) and transmission via Whispernet.

Not Entirely:

"When Kindle is connected to your computer, you will see three directories or folders. The one called "documents" contains all of your digital reading materials like books, newspapers, your "My Clippings" file, etc. The "Audible" directory is for your audiobooks, and "music" is for your MP3 files. You can add Kindle compatible files to these directories, and you can copy, move, or delete the files that are already there. The computer file formats that you can read or listen to on your Kindle are listed below: Kindle (.AZW) Text (.TXT) Unprotected Mobipocket (.MOBI, .PRC) Audible (.AA) MP3"

I agree that more formats need to be supported off the PC...

So far, I see a great device being crippled by greed. When are these guys going to read a little history and see that this approach is self defeating? Why is the PC dominant when Apple was better - because it was open!

They will never learn. For my part I will keep my Sony and watch to see if they open the device to more formats. Clearly this could be done in firmware should they decide to do it or it can be hacked.

da_jane
11-19-2007, 12:55 PM
In the License agreement:

Amazon provides wireless connectivity free of charge to you for certain content shopping and acquisition services on your Device. You will be charged a fee for wireless connectivity for your use of other wireless services on your Device, such as Web browsing and downloading of personal files, should you elect to use those services. We will maintain a list of current fees for such services in the Kindle Store


You agree you will use the wireless connectivity provided by Amazon only in connection with Services Amazon provides for the Device. You may not use the wireless connectivity for any other purpose.

Use of Digital Content. Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.



So it would seem that you'll get charged a fee for any wireless connection outside the buying of books. AND that you cannot read an Amazon purchased ebook on anything (not even your computer) than the one Kindle. (As opposed to the 6 or so devices that can be authorized by MS Lit and Mobipocket).

Via Jason Griffey (http://www.jasongriffey.net/wp/2007/11/19/more-on-the-kindle/)

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 12:55 PM
Hey, we've not been tender to anyone. I don't think it's any reason we're being bypassed. But the fact that we have their manuals on site might. :grin:

igorsk
11-19-2007, 12:59 PM
There's a little blurb at the bottom of the Kindle store:

Calling All Bloggers
Bloggers, interested in making your blog available on Kindle? Contact us (mailto:digitalpublications@amazon.com).

CommanderROR
11-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Well, I guess Alexander should go ahead and tell them we're here...^^

JSWolf
11-19-2007, 01:01 PM
The Kindle is shown on the front page of Amazon.com and I did see that the Kindle is working on the site. Say it on Good Morning America.

JSWolf
11-19-2007, 01:02 PM
Well, I guess Alexander should go ahead and tell them we're here...^^
I agree 100%

TadW
11-19-2007, 01:03 PM
Bloggers, interested in making your blog available on Kindle? Contact us (digitalpublications@amazon.com).


:2thumbsup The more people contact them the better!

JSWolf
11-19-2007, 01:04 PM
amazon will sell more ebooks today than all other ebook sales in history
Nope.. They first have the get the Kindle to the consumers for that to happen.

nekokami
11-19-2007, 01:05 PM
I guess I'm not too surprised that Amazon wants to lock people into reading Kindle editions only on the Kindle. (Disappointed, but not too surprised.) But I'm stunned that the Kindle doesn't support DRM'd Mobipocket. I can't see what that gets them. So what if people could buy content from other vendors who sell mobi format? If they keep their prices down, why would anyone bother?

If .AZW is really non-DRM mobi... does that mean you could buy a book (if you had a Kindle registered to your account) and read it using a mobi reader on the PC?

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-19-2007, 01:09 PM
You think MR has been too Sony-friendly, and too Amazon-unfriendly? That would be a very cheap shot for not including our community ;(

I'm not saying MR has overly-supported or under-supported anyone... just that MR mentions other e-book sources, and has occasionally been critical of the Kindle. Groups have been shut out for less in the business world...

da_jane
11-19-2007, 01:12 PM
Heard from Random House and Simon & Schuster that all content will be made in all formats. No exclusive Kindle deal.

jasonkchapman
11-19-2007, 01:14 PM
Heard from Random House and Simon & Schuster that all content will be made in all formats. No exclusive Kindle deal.

That's not surprising, but it is gratifying to have it confirmed. That means it's definitely going to be a matter of "a rising tide," and all the boats will be able to benefit.

jharker
11-19-2007, 01:17 PM
Info about the Kindle is still unclear. Don't jump to negative conclusions. Here's what they say over at engadget: (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/19/many-details-about-the-kindle/)

It doesn't use a generic RSS aggregator -- it's Amazon-selected blogs only (and they "want every blog they can get"). Blogs that are aggregated by the Kindle get a revenue share with Amazon, since it costs money to get those publications.
The side scroller is, as we expected, a polarized PNLCD (pneumatic LCD). It looks amazing.
It's SD only, not SDHC.
It uses the Kindle file format (which is a variant of structured HTML), but also accepts Word and PDF files (but only via email since they need to be converted by Amazon), Mobi, HTML, plaintext, and image files like JPEG, GIF, and PNG. Sorry, no RTF.
Oh yes, it supports Audible! Oh, and a little, unused file format called MP3.
It has a user-replaceable, 1530mAh battery
You can bind five or six devices to a single account, and share books you've purchased to those accounts. There's no simultaneous reading lock, so if you and your significant other are on the same Amazon account you can both read the same book at the same time on your Kindles.
Amazon is also releasing the Digital Text Platform, which allows users to upload their own content to the Kindle store for sale and download.
The $9.99 price point is the sweet spot, but there are books for sale from the Gutenberg project for under $1 (if you don't want to download them for free yourself), and upwards of that quoted $10 price point as well.
Amazon wouldn't say who makes the device, just that "it's an OEM in China."

So contrary to da_jane's post, it seems like you can read purchases in multiple locations at the same time with no problem.

I would suspect that Amazon may provide home computer software to do the same conversion as the network-based upload. Otherwise users with no EVDO service would be stuck.

JSWolf
11-19-2007, 01:20 PM
The Kindle doesn't need PDF support.

igorsk
11-19-2007, 01:21 PM
Apparently, you can do the conversion for free by using the "free.kindle.com" address, which will forward the converted file to your registered email address instead of directly to Kindle.

RWood
11-19-2007, 01:31 PM
My prediction- the Kindle will crash and burn. Sales will be dismal- just like for the Sony reader. And the reasons have been around ever since the Rocketbook/GEM flop- but no one is considering them. Yet again, I see a device that the manufacturer thinks will make them rich from "content sales." Yet again, a comparison is made to the Apple Ipod- hey, this reader will "do the same thing for books as the Ipod did for music." Where did I hear that line before? Oh, yeah, in an article about the Sony Reader.

Sorry, unless this thing comes with a High-speed book scanner, it will do no such thing. I have hundreds of music cd's I can rip to my ipod. This reader doesn't let me rip my paper books to its format- I won't even be able to read my ereader books on it, probably.

Hype and more hype, no substance. Gem 1150 mark 2.
Unlike music, most people do not read a book more than once. The people who hang around here are not most people. The majority of the people will not care if they cannot get their old books scanned. All they care about is new books that they have yet to read.

wallcraft
11-19-2007, 01:34 PM
I read a lot of BAEN books and would like to see .rtf. The best Baen format is probably their .prc files. An alternative would be to e-mail the .rtf version, pay the $0.10 conversion charge, and (presumably) get a AZW version on the Kindle.

Another possibility, for Baen books with many images (e.g. J.B. Universe and Grantville Gazette vols 11+), is to download the .LIT and convert it to .MOBI using ConvertLIT and mobigen.exe -jpeg. The original .prc version has the images, but much smaller than will be optimal on the Kindle.

AnemicOak
11-19-2007, 01:34 PM
lots of rural areas do not have EVDO.

It also has 1xRTT wireless which IIRC is the older more widespread protocol.

TadW
11-19-2007, 01:35 PM
Apparently, you can do the conversion for free by using the "free.kindle.com" address, which will forward the converted file to your registered email address instead of directly to Kindle.

free.kindle.com sounds like Free Willy to me. Someone please free the Kindle from cruel DRM.

Seriously, this also raises copyright issues. Sure not every PDF file is meant to be sent through some other company's servers, even if it's just for conversion purposes.

Alisa
11-19-2007, 01:46 PM
The Kindle doesn't need PDF support.

I think it would make it more attractive for the business travelers. I'm betting they are a big part of the target market. So many of the work-related documents I get are PDFs. If I'm on a business trip, my reading will be a mixture of business and pleasure. The annotation features make this a natural for that kind of reading.

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 02:11 PM
Unlike music, most people do not read a book more than once. The people who hang around here are not most people. The majority of the people will not care if they cannot get their old books scanned. All they care about is new books that they have yet to read.Agreed. Life is short and there is so much to read! Books take longer to process than movies. Music sometimes is more a mood creator and can be enjoyed whilst doing something else.

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 02:27 PM
The Kindle doesn't need PDF support.

I assume you mean that PDFs can be converted (if they are free of DRM) to a supported format like DOC or HTML first, correct? Do we know whether Amazon's conversion supports such files that contain images versus those without? I'm thinking about the same problem the Sony Readers have.

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-19-2007, 02:37 PM
I'll have to see what I can accomplish with Amazon's Digital Text Platform, myself... might be a great second venue for my material.

I have looked it over: Seems you can't put things up to offer for free, and you must provide a bank account number to forward any money received from sales. It accepted the upload of one of my novels in PRC format, but the preview function seems to be having problems (or is just broken).

This could take some time, so I'll have to let you all know how things turn out later.

TallMomof2
11-19-2007, 02:38 PM
I think it would make it more attractive for the business travelers. I'm betting they are a big part of the target market. So many of the work-related documents I get are PDFs. If I'm on a business trip, my reading will be a mixture of business and pleasure. The annotation features make this a natural for that kind of reading.

ITA, that's why I went to eBooks. I can carry around a small library on my PDA and as long as I wasn't trying to read outside and had access to an AC outlet every day I was fine.

If I'm standing in line at the post office I can whip out my PDA and read a few pages while I wait.

Back in the old days when I traveled for business I always had to make room in my luggage for a few books to read during down time. Nowadays all I need is my PDA which also carries my calender (no more Day Planner), contacts (no more address book) and my books.

jharker
11-19-2007, 02:55 PM
I assume you mean that PDFs can be converted (if they are free of DRM) to a supported format like DOC or HTML first, correct? Do we know whether Amazon's conversion supports such files that contain images versus those without? I'm thinking about the same problem the Sony Readers have.

PDF and DOC have the same level of support, c.f. you upload them to Amazon which converts them. Dunno how their conversion works, though.

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 03:18 PM
PDF and DOC have the same level of support, c.f. you upload them to Amazon which converts them. Dunno how their conversion works, though.

I haven't seen anywhere (manual, web site, etc.) that they (Amazon) support PDFs. As to DOCs, the question I have is do they support DOCs with images or not. I only ask that question because the routine that Sony uses for DOCs only strips out the text and you end up with very readable text but without the imbedded images.

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 03:23 PM
The Kindle is shown on the front page of Amazon.com and I did see that the Kindle is working on the site. Say it on Good Morning America.Sorry Jon! Your other post about the tv show was so short I thought you were joking. You should probably think about using smilies more, they're an opening for the reader to the mood of your post.:p

Alisa
11-19-2007, 03:27 PM
I think the Kindle will be the first killer app of e-books. They've worked around every limitation of e-ink and made it really easy to use. iRex and Sony are going to have to step up fast to match this. As a devoted iLiad owner, I have to say that the Kindle blows it out of the water for convenience and ease of use. Everything iLiad owners have wanted for a while (dictionary, bookmarking, etc.) the Kindle does out of the box.

Very nice work by Amazon. They can fix the form factor in version 2 next year. :)

This brings up an interesting question to me. It seems the Amazon might either viewed as a Gen3 or Sony on steroids with it's added features and higher price (at least higher than Sony). Or it might be viewed as iLiad light since it has no stylus, a smaller screen and a lower price. I wonder if there's enough of a potential market between the two points for this. Of course, being Amazon they may attract some customers that hadn't even thought about ebooks before.

TadW
11-19-2007, 03:30 PM
This brings up an interesting question to me. It seems the Amazon might either viewed as a Gen3 or Sony on steroids with it's added features and higher price (at least higher than Sony).

Have you guys noticed that the Kindle only has 4 grey scales, versus the 8 grey scales of the Sony Reader PRS-505? I wonder which screen is superior...

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 03:32 PM
There are several ways you can get digital content from the NYTimes: free access to their web site, $ for Times Reader where some content (the same as the free web site content?) is delivered to your PC or wireless device, or $$ for the Times Electronic Edition which is the complete content of the paper edition but delivered to your PC. They recently discontinued Times Select which was $ for what amonted to the free stuff plus a few extra bits.

So the question I would like someone to answer: what level of content do you get if you buy it from Amazon for the Kindle?

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 03:34 PM
There are several ways you can get digital content from the NYTimes: free access to their web site, $ for Times Reader where some content (the same as the free web site content?) is delivered to your PC or wireless device, or $$ for the Times Electronic Edition which is the complete content of the paper edition but delivered to your PC. They recently discontinued Times Select which was $ for what amonted to the free stuff plus a few extra bits.

So the question I would like someone to answer: what level of content do you get if you buy it from Amazon for the Kindle?

Hmmm! Interesting, and would we be swamped with adds?

Nate the great
11-19-2007, 03:37 PM
So the question I would like someone to answer: what level of content do you get if you buy it from Amazon for the Kindle?

I have purchased and am trying to read the Kindle Edition of the Washington Post. When I am able to read it I will tell you what it lacks.

DaleDe
11-19-2007, 03:42 PM
OK, thanks. My only remaining concern is that the only simple unencrypted format is .txt.
I read a lot of BAEN books and would like to see .rtf.

If a mobiPocket file is stored in the original format it can be read and converted by BookDesigner. This is an unencrypted format and is actually pretty simple so exchange is certainly possible using this format. It is basically PalmDoc with html added. Baen could publish anything in this format. Note that the new compression format used on some MobiPocket books cannot be decoded from any product I am aware of other than MobiPocket.

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 03:43 PM
Hmmm! Interesting, and would we be swamped with adds?

Well, actually, the complete Electronic Edition does have all the ads in it as well as every bit of info that the NYTimes publishes. Of course, the web site (and, I think, Times Reader) contains a subset of that. I should mention that a single issue of the Electronic Edition is nearly half a gigabyte, at least in the format in which they give it to you. So I may have just answered my own question. They are probably delivering to the Kindle the abbreviated content. But I'd like confirmation nonetheless.

hidari
11-19-2007, 03:44 PM
Having read every post at MR about the Kindle..I can only see a White Elephant running down the Path. Can a company actually think on a 5 year or ten year scale instead of a 6 month scale? The Kindle appears another nail in the coffin for the ereaders to catch on to the masses. The price tag is 400USD? I use my Acer n311 to read..... Happily and I can do a load of functions in additoin to reading with Mobipocket. Hopefully Amazon will come out with a second version after they see their errors....

hidari.




ok folks, I have some rather bad news to deliver....



Meaning the Kindle Editions are only for the Kindle and you can only get them wirelessly.

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 03:47 PM
Well, actually, the complete Electronic Edition does have all the ads in it as well as every bit of info that the NYTimes publishes. Of course, the web site (and, I think, Times Reader) contains a subset of that. I should mention that a single issue of the Electronic Edition is nearly half a gigabyte, at least in the format in which they give it to you. So I may have just answered my own question. They are probably delivering to the Kindle the abbreviated content. But I'd like confirmation nonetheless.I'd say 50% of add content is useless to out of towners anyway. Why subject worldwide customers to it? Unless it's for multinationals like Nike...

vivaldirules
11-19-2007, 03:51 PM
I'd say 50% of add content is useless to out of towners anyway. Why subject worldwide customers to it? Unless it's for multinationals like Nike...

Certainly, I couldn't agree with you more. But when I've bought a copy of the paper edition and compared it with what's on their web site, the content I want to read in depth is missing from the web. It is for that reason that I've wanted the Electronic Edition (which costs $169 per year) - not for the ads.

DaleDe
11-19-2007, 04:14 PM
free.kindle.com sounds like Free Willy to me. Someone please free the Kindle from cruel DRM.

Seriously, this also raises copyright issues. Sure not every PDF file is meant to be sent through some other company's servers, even if it's just for conversion purposes.

You can convert PDF files with the Windows version of MobiPocket and then just download them.

Dale

developerzero
11-19-2007, 04:17 PM
Did anyone else notice this review on Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3V5MPI1JNTTKU/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&ASIN=B000FI73MA#wasThisHelpful

This guy HAS ONE!!!!

Also, the best place I've found for legal, paid for e-books is:
http://wowio.com

It is ad-based, with two adds added to the front, and one to the end, with a limit of three downloads per day. But it is FREE, it is LEGAL, and the content producers are PAID for it (and the ads can be easily removed with pdflrf for reading on the Sony Reader).

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-19-2007, 05:47 PM
Can a company actually think on a 5 year or ten year scale instead of a 6 month scale?

Don't forget, Amazon has already made history as a company that saw beyond next week... in fact, while every get-rich-quick site flared and died during the dot-com boom, Amazon trucked along, not even making a dime in profit, for years until they finally caught on. If anyone has the ability to see (and stick to) the long-term picture, it's Amazon.

That said, although e-books are the future, I don't know about the Kindle specifically. I would've thought Amazon would be happy providing Mobi content, or even multiple formats, and let the readers worry about what they read 'em on.

But then, I'm not Amazon.

yvanleterrible
11-19-2007, 05:57 PM
Captive market... that's what every money monger is on to since Apple proved one viable.

tsgreer
11-19-2007, 06:05 PM
In the License agreement:

Amazon provides wireless connectivity free of charge to you for certain content shopping and acquisition services on your Device. You will be charged a fee for wireless connectivity for your use of other wireless services on your Device, such as Web browsing and downloading of personal files, should you elect to use those services. We will maintain a list of current fees for such services in the Kindle Store


So it would seem that you'll get charged a fee for any wireless connection outside the buying of books...

Wait, does that mean that connecting to Wikipedia will be charged or is that free? They mentioned that you have access to Wikipedia in their video--sucks and ruins my joy if I would have to pay for that...:unafraid:

AnemicOak
11-19-2007, 06:18 PM
Wait, does that mean that connecting to Wikipedia will be charged or is that free? They mentioned that you have access to Wikipedia in their video--sucks and ruins my joy if I would have to pay for that...:unafraid:

I though I read somewhere that any wireless use except for book downloads costs. Of course now I can't find the reference, so I'm not 100% sure it's true.

tsgreer
11-19-2007, 06:31 PM
I though I read somewhere that any wireless use except for book downloads costs. Of course now I can't find the reference, so I'm not 100% sure it's true.

Hmm, well Wikipedia itself may have answered my question. Their entry for the Amazon Kindle states: "Access to Wikipedia is offered at no additional charge." So I hope that's correct!:pray:

igorsk
11-19-2007, 06:31 PM
Amazon and Wikipedia is free, the rest is paid.

NatCh
11-19-2007, 06:33 PM
I think someone found a reference (in the manual, maybe? I don't remember) that implied that they'd only pay for using the wireless for purposes they approved in advance, and would bill you for anything else. If they've approved wiki access, as it seems they have, then you should be good there. :nice:

DaleDe
11-19-2007, 09:10 PM
Hmm, well Wikipedia itself may have answered my question. Their entry for the Amazon Kindle states: "Access to Wikipedia is offered at no additional charge." So I hope that's correct!:pray:

That is also what the Amazon manual says.

Dale

Zoot
11-19-2007, 09:23 PM
I believe all web access is free currently (someone correct me if that's wrong). The license says they're free to charge you if they want to (if people spend more time web surfing than buying books and htey get a big bill from Sprint for example). If they do this then rather than cut off web access entirely or require a premium monthly account charge or something I would expect they might limit it to certain web sites and chances are they'll always let you get to Wikipedia.

Amazon has a lot of wiggle room here. They can start charging for data access, charging for access to sites other than some limited set, offer monthly data plans, offer subsidized services with ads or minimum monthly purchases from the store (this was my guess yesterday as to how they would pay for data access), offer premium service that includes two-way email, etc., etc.

But at this point the last thing they want to do is irritate their early adopters who are paying full-price for a new technology, so again I'm not overly worried. The license text is just there because they need to not lose their shirts if all people do is web-surf all day. An e-ink display doesn't make thr most dynamic web interface though :)

Z.

astra
11-20-2007, 07:47 AM
The Kindle doesn't need PDF support.

I agree with the statement.

I don't know what is a reason behind JSWolf's point of view but mine is simple - you cannot read PDFs on 6" screens. So, supporting PDFs would not attract business customers because they would not be able to read any of their A4 formated PDFs on Kindle.

wgrimm
11-20-2007, 08:37 AM
Big Brother Bezos

As far as I could see, no support for PDF.

Furthermore all YOUR own content (docs, pdfs, email messages) that you want to install on your Kindle will have to go through Amazon for conversion (for a small fee) and transmission via Whispernet.
Great, Amazon having access to all the stuff (apart from MP3's) I want on MY Kindle.

It gets worse, the device sends home all sorts of information about your use of your Kindle.

Some aspects of the Kindle are great, but the above will prevent me from getting one.


I am surprised anyone thinks this device has a chance. Remember the Rocketbook and the Reb? Yeah, use your (INCLUDED) telephone cable to hook your reader up to ANY TELEPHONE and download content! After paying outrageously for it, of course.

Never mind that people seemed to be most concerned with getting their own content onto the reader with few hassles.

This is just Rocketbook Mk2, and it will crash and burn as well. DRM and the silly Amazon monitoring will kill it, if its ugliness does not kill it first. Amazon's previous forays into e-books have been much less than successful, and I don't expect this one to be much different, only more costly.

wgrimm
11-20-2007, 08:42 AM
Unlike music, most people do not read a book more than once. The people who hang around here are not most people. The majority of the people will not care if they cannot get their old books scanned. All they care about is new books that they have yet to read.

Well, I do care if I can read my previously purchased e-books on a new e-reader. I am not going to spend $400 on a device just to be able to read newly purchased books. And if it is only the people here that are going to support this device, it will be a dismal failure, not the "ipod of e-books."

I have seen it all before- like I said, the Kindle is RB/REB Mk2. Same gimmicks, same underlying greed directing its design.

wgrimm
11-20-2007, 08:46 AM
The best Baen format is probably their .prc files. An alternative would be to e-mail the .rtf version, pay the $0.10 conversion charge, and (presumably) get a AZW version on the Kindle.



Doesn't anyone think they are being nickled and dimed by this "conversion fee." Why couldn't Amazon make this conversion tool available for its Kindle purchasers. You pay $400 and don't get a conversion tool with it?

And for the conspiracy theorists, what happens if Amazon starts monitoring the conversion requests for what they suspect are illegal (not paid for) texts?

vivaldirules
11-20-2007, 09:29 AM
Anyone up for making a list of tests for the new Kindle owners to run to help us clear up some questions? In return, I would be grateful and award much Karma! :)

1. Can you get an ebook onto the Kindle via USB? I know there's a cable to put music on and there's talk about what is assumed to be true about ebooks. But I'd like someone to actually put an ebook file on the thing by USB and show that they can then read it on their Kindle.

2. Is an .AZW file exactly the same as an unsecured Mobipocket file or not? I'd like someone to do that test on a Kindle, not the other way around.

3. How about delivery of an ebook purchased on Amazon delivered in some way other than directly to the Kindle. There's talk and I assume you can't do this. Still....

4. Someone suggested using Mobipocket for Windows to take a PDF and convert it to a form that would be read on the Kindle. If I'm not mistaken, someone said it was even possible to use Mobipocket to convert a secure Mobipocket to an unsecure Mobipocket file.

5. You can email yourself a DOC or HTML file and they'll convert it for you. What if the file you send contains images? Will you see them or will you get text only?

6. Are the newspapers you can buy complete editions of the paper copy or are they abridged? An example would be the NYTimes Electronic Edition (full) versus the NYTimes Reader (abridged).

7. If you live in an area reachable by Sprint but not EVDO, do you indeed receive the book using that other thingy (insert technical term).

Any other ideas?

TallMomof2
11-20-2007, 09:44 AM
I don't have my Kindle yet but I can answer a couple of questions.

Anyone up for making a list of tests for the new Kindle owners to run to help us clear up some questions? In return, I would be grateful and award much Karma! :)

1. Can you get an ebook onto the Kindle via USB? I know there's a cable to put music on and there's talk about what is assumed to be true about ebooks. But I'd like someone to actually put an ebook file on the thing by USB and show that they can then read it on their Kindle.

In the Kindle User Guide (available for anyone to download) it states starting on page 76:

"When Kindle is connected to your computer, you will see three directories or folders. The one called "documents" contains all of your digital reading materials like books, newspapers, your "My Clippings" file, etc. The "Audible" directory is for your audiobooks, and "music" is for your MP3 files. You can add Kindle compatible files to these directories, and you can copy, move, or delete the files that are already there. The computer file formats that you can read or listen to on your Kindle are listed below:

Kindle (.AZW)
Text (.TXT)
Unprotected Mobipocket (.MOBI, .PRC)
Audible (.AA) MP3 (.MP3)

Tip: Mobipocket files must have no Digital Rights Management (DRM) protection applied to be readable on your Kindle. If you purchased a Mobipocket file from a Mobipocket retailer, you will not be able to open the file on your Kindle."

Your PC (or Mac) will see the Kindle and its expansion card as separate removable drives. You just click and drag items over.

2. Is an .AZW file exactly the same as an unsecured Mobipocket file or not? I'd like someone to do that test on a Kindle, not the other way around.

No, it is a secured file. I downloaded an .AZW file last night and could not read it on my Mobipocket reader. Renamed the file extension to .PRC and it still did not work. Same error code you get when you try and read a secured book on an unregistered PID.

3. How about delivery of an ebook purchased on Amazon delivered in some way other than directly to the Kindle. There's talk and I assume you can't do this. Still....

Once you purchase a book you can go to "Your Media Library" at Amazon and download the book directly to your computer. That's how I was able to experiment with the .AZW book in question 3.

4. Someone suggested using Mobipocket for Windows to take a PDF and convert it to a form that would be read on the Kindle. If I'm not mistaken, someone said it was even possible to use Mobipocket to convert a secure Mobipocket to an unsecure Mobipocket file.

I haven't been able to convert a secured MobiPocket file to an unsecured one. Also MobiCreator cannot convert secured PDFs to .PRC

5. You can email yourself a DOC or HTML file and they'll convert it for you. What if the file you send contains images? Will you see them or will you get text only?

Don't know.

6. Are the newspapers you can buy complete editions of the paper copy or are they abridged? An example would be the NYTimes Electronic Edition (full) versus the NYTimes Reader (abridged).

Any other ideas?

Don't know but I hope they're without ads.

HTH

wallcraft
11-20-2007, 09:52 AM
2. Is an .AZW file exactly the same as an unsecured Mobipocket file or not? I'd like someone to do that test on a Kindle, not the other way around. I agree that renaming a DRM-free .mobi to .azw and trying it on a Kindle is a reasonable test.

A purchased .AZW file is assumed to be identical to a secure .MOBI. This assupmtion is based on the fact that the DRM-free .AZW User Guide is actually a DRM-free .MOBI file. This is hard to test for secure .AZW files, but at a minimum bytes 61-68 of the file should be BOOKMOBI.

TallMomof2
11-20-2007, 09:58 AM
I agree that renaming a DRM-free .mobi to .azw and trying it on a Kindle is a reasonable test.

A purchased .AZW file is assumed to be identical to a secure .MOBI. This assupmtion is based on the fact that the DRM-free .AZW User Guide is actually a DRM-free .MOBI file. This is hard to test for secure .AZW files, but at a minimum bytes 61-68 of the file should be BOOKMOBI.

Yes, bytes 61-68 are BOOKMOBI.

bwit
11-20-2007, 10:02 AM
1. Can you get an ebook onto the Kindle via USB? I know there's a cable to put music on and there's talk about what is assumed to be true about ebooks. But I'd like someone to actually put an ebook file on the thing by USB and show that they can then read it on their Kindle.

Don't know for sure but the manual implies you can add books via USB.

3. How about delivery of an ebook purchased on Amazon delivered in some way other than directly to the Kindle. There's talk and I assume you can't do this. Still....

The Kindle support page states that the Amazon conversion service can be used to deliver converted content to your Amazon default email address for free in addition to directly to the Kindle for a charge. here is the passage:

In addition to the commercially available titles sold in the Kindle store, you can also read personal documents on your Kindle. Each Kindle has a unique e-mail address, allowing you and your contacts to send attachments (Word and picture files) directly to your Kindle for a small fee or to your default Amazon e-mail account for free.

6. Are the newspapers you can buy complete editions of the paper copy or are they abridged? An example would be the NYTimes Electronic Edition (full) versus the NYTimes Reader (abridged).

The Amazon site states that the newspapers are not complete. It sounded like all the text content was present but said that some images and charts would be missing in addition to crosswords. For example the following is from the San Jose paper description:

The Kindle Edition of San Jose Mercury News contains most articles found in the print edition, but will not include all images and tables. Also, some features such as the crossword puzzle, box scores and classifieds are not currently available.

Bob

slayda
11-20-2007, 10:07 AM
This is amusing:

Most expensive Kindle Book: "Growth Strategies for Software Companies" $1,079.96

Cheapest Kindle Book: " Chemoton Theory: Theory of Living Systems" $0.01

Both on my reading list, of course <g>

You have to watch those "less than $1" priced books. Like at Fictionwise, they are NOT full length books but are short stories.

vivaldirules
11-20-2007, 11:16 AM
I appreciate the comments. I think they are useful. But I really am looking for results of actual tests done by someone who has their hands on a Kindle. And I'm certain that more informative tests can be devised by those of you who are not a neophyte like me. Should someone put together such a list?

HarryT
11-20-2007, 11:27 AM
Doesn't anyone think they are being nickled and dimed by this "conversion fee." Why couldn't Amazon make this conversion tool available for its Kindle purchasers. You pay $400 and don't get a conversion tool with it?

You don't need a "conversion tool". You can upload Mobi files directly via USB.

And for the conspiracy theorists, what happens if Amazon starts monitoring the conversion requests for what they suspect are illegal (not paid for) texts?

Excellent news if they do. Anything that catches e-book pirates can only be good, IMHO.

DaleDe
11-20-2007, 11:53 AM
Doesn't anyone think they are being nickled and dimed by this "conversion fee." Why couldn't Amazon make this conversion tool available for its Kindle purchasers. You pay $400 and don't get a conversion tool with it?

And for the conspiracy theorists, what happens if Amazon starts monitoring the conversion requests for what they suspect are illegal (not paid for) texts?

This is not a conversion fee. They will convert for free and send it to your email address. This fee is for EVDO download.

Dale

Nate the great
11-20-2007, 11:58 AM
Anyone up for making a list of tests for the new Kindle owners to run to help us clear up some questions? In return, I would be grateful and award much Karma! :)

1. Can you get an ebook onto the Kindle via USB? I know there's a cable to put music on and there's talk about what is assumed to be true about ebooks. But I'd like someone to actually put an ebook file on the thing by USB and show that they can then read it on their Kindle.

2. Is an .AZW file exactly the same as an unsecured Mobipocket file or not? I'd like someone to do that test on a Kindle, not the other way around.

3. How about delivery of an ebook purchased on Amazon delivered in some way other than directly to the Kindle. There's talk and I assume you can't do this. Still....

4. Someone suggested using Mobipocket for Windows to take a PDF and convert it to a form that would be read on the Kindle. If I'm not mistaken, someone said it was even possible to use Mobipocket to convert a secure Mobipocket to an unsecure Mobipocket file.

5. You can email yourself a DOC or HTML file and they'll convert it for you. What if the file you send contains images? Will you see them or will you get text only?

6. Are the newspapers you can buy complete editions of the paper copy or are they abridged? An example would be the NYTimes Electronic Edition (full) versus the NYTimes Reader (abridged).

7. If you live in an area reachable by Sprint but not EVDO, do you indeed receive the book using that other thingy (insert technical term).

Any other ideas?

I had not yet thought of the email conversion problems, but otherwise this matches my to-do list.

Nate the great
11-20-2007, 12:02 PM
You don't need a "conversion tool". You can upload Mobi files directly via USB.

Excellent news if they do. Anything that catches e-book pirates can only be good, IMHO.

Not "anything", but other than that I agree. It would be simple and worthwhile to "tag" some copyrighted works and see how they circulate through the system.

tompe
11-20-2007, 04:11 PM
Excellent news if they do. Anything that catches e-book pirates can only be good, IMHO.

Why?

And it will not catch anybody at all since it is not illegal to have a copy of a book. The act of obtaining the copy might in some cases be illegal but that is another question.

bob_ninja
11-21-2007, 11:50 AM
So in summary we have 2 camps.

The geeks prefer Sony/Cybook/Iliad for support of existing formats including non-DRM formats. The others prefer Kindle for ease of use.

Nevertheless, I think that the original point is spot on. I think that the non-geek camp will still avoid this device except for a small minority that read so much that the high Kindle price is not a problem.

Despite all the comparisons and similarities with music/iPod/mp3/etc. there are also significant differences. For instance, mp3 files were in wide use well before iPod was introduced. MP3 format was already established as a de facto standard and was open enough for a wide plethora of tools and software, including the key ability to move content to and from CDs. The outcome would be very different if iPod didn't support MP3 format from the start.

At this time de facto standard for books is still pBook. As others pointed out all of the electronic formats have issues and there is no standard. We cannot easily move content from pBooks to eReader and back as you could with your CDs. We don't even have any assurance that the DRM formats of today will be around for a long time. People wouldn't put so much effort into converting their musing into MP3 if there were doubts about its future. There are a lot of doubts about all DRM formats for books today.

All this is to say that the situation is far more complex and muddled for books now then it was for music when iPod was introduced. As pointed out, adding yet another DRM doesn't help.

The assertion is that Kindle will be successful simply for the convenience. Fair enough, it has some strong convenience attributes, as discussed. However, if it is more convenient that other devices, we still don't know if it is more convenient than pBooks. After all that is one of the main strengths of pBooks. You don't need any power or special hardware. No DRM, keys, registrations, no company telling you how/when you can use your content, etc. So the missing analysis is if Kindle is more convenient and easier to use than pBooks. I think not considering the high upfront cost of $400. That money buys a lot of paperbacks and magazines!!!

In fact for the wider public the main question is why bother with ANY eReader including Kindle. If you are using simple transient content that you don't care to keep for a long time but simply need somehting to read on the bus or train then there is no need to spend $400 upfront just to be able to access the same old paperback/magazine you'd get on paper. After all paperbacks are not much bigger than Kindle. And you can sit on it, throw it, jump on it,... and there won't be a broken screen, etc.

Why bother with DRM and registrations, etc. I can walkup to any bookstore or magazine stand and by pContent for cash. Doesn't get much easier than that.

So I think that Amazon DOES need to attract everyone including us geeks because we are the pathfinders that find a way/reason to switch to new tek and show it to the wider public. For every sale to a geek you get several spinoff sales to others as we evangilize our toys.

So yes, this is the wrong approach and Amazon has created yet another dead end gizmo that will piss off a lot of people when they drop the support in the future.

P.S.: Sorry, should've been in " Amazon Kindle might be the worst thing that could happen to e-books?" posted in the wrong place

JSWolf
11-21-2007, 12:01 PM
I agree with the statement.

I don't know what is a reason behind JSWolf's point of view but mine is simple - you cannot read PDFs on 6" screens. So, supporting PDFs would not attract business customers because they would not be able to read any of their A4 formated PDFs on Kindle.
My point of view is the Kindle is designed for reading books. It's not designed for reading technical documents. It's that simple really. And why do it in a way that won't work well anyway? And because the Kindle is a US device (at present) you should be saying letter and not A4. The US doesn't do A4 (we know better).

Nate the great
11-21-2007, 12:10 PM
I disagree with you bob. I am a geek and I prefer the kindle. Part of the reason that I like it is I can post from it, like I am doing right now.

Alisa
11-21-2007, 12:26 PM
I disagree with you bob. I am a geek and I prefer the kindle. Part of the reason that I like it is I can post from it, like I am doing right now.

I'm a geek and I went with the Kindle, too. (Still waiting on mine.) I had a really hard time justifying any ebook reader that didn't let me search text. I would've even been willing to give up excerpting and annotating if I could just search. Add that to the title selection and convenience and I was sold. I do really wish it was more open and I hope we can influence Amazon in that regard.

Steven Lyle Jordan
11-21-2007, 12:54 PM
So in summary we have 2 camps...

Well, more or less. It looks a bit more gray to me than that.

Nonetheless, you make good points. Especially regarding the comparison between books and music; MP3s caught on so readily, not just because of how great iPods and iTunes were, but specifically because they made personal music more portable and customizable. E-books won't make it because of Amazon or Kindle (or Sony, or anybody else), they'll make it on superior utility, or they'll forever be a niche market.

Fortunately, there is room for high portability, searchability, and viewing customization to take off with the public, so superior utility is only a matter of time. The Kindle and Sony readers are merely the next versions in the long-term development of readers, and their experience in the market will guide future development.

If those are solved, history has shown us that even DRM can be put up with (or hacked around), but won't be a serious hindrance to enjoying content.

yvanleterrible
11-21-2007, 03:55 PM
Me too. Black or white is not the question since eveything is grey.

I am not a geek. I am nothing... but happy that there are so many eink devices. If I could I'd have them all, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

Every time a new one comes along, I just wish I could get it. Even if it is not as appealing design wise, the Kindle gets my vote for a good machine. I'm just a little thrown aback by the decision to lock it with so much DRM.

AnemicOak
11-21-2007, 04:14 PM
I'm just a little thrown aback by the decision to lock it with so much DRM.

Honestly it's no more DRM 'locked' than the Sony.

Alisa
11-21-2007, 05:29 PM
Honestly it's no more DRM 'locked' than the Sony.

I think you can read Connect Store books on your computer but I don't think there are any other mobile devices for them, right? So that is slightly less locked. I do hope Amazon releases reader software for people's computers but I don't think that's a huge deal for most of us. I think it's mostly people's disappointment talking since so many of us hoped that it would be .mobi.

yvanleterrible
11-21-2007, 05:37 PM
I don't use Connect with my 500, I just hope one can do so with the Kindle and Amazon. The other point I don't like is that we do not know if someone else than Amazon will sell the Kindle. At least outside the US, someone crafty at shopping can get a 500.

I'd prefer an unlocked machine, all the pussyfooting around DRM is a drag with any machine.

tompe
11-21-2007, 05:59 PM
Isn't the important point that the Amzon book shop is locked to one DRM. So in a way you are supporting this when you buy a Kindle. And a DRM that only allow a reader of a specific type.

DaleDe
11-21-2007, 06:07 PM
Isn't the important point that the Amzon book shop is locked to one DRM. So in a way you are supporting this when you buy a Kindle. And a DRM that only allow a reader of a specific type.

Actually all readers in existence except PDA's only support one DRM system. So Amazon is no different from others in that respect. Sony, for example, is exactly the same and the DRM was changed so their own early product of a few years ago uses a different DRM than the last 2 products.

This may be because of licensing contract issues for some of them but certainly not for Amazon and probably not for Sony.

A few are only licensed to MobiPocket but there is a difference in that several products can use that license. I suspect in the long run Amazon will use a MobiPocket license as well but for now they are controlling the license to limit their loss leader books.

Dale

Alisa
11-21-2007, 06:14 PM
Isn't the important point that the Amzon book shop is locked to one DRM. So in a way you are supporting this when you buy a Kindle. And a DRM that only allow a reader of a specific type.

I can't say what the important point is for everyone, but any of us that own Sony Readers (or iPods for that matter) would be supporting DRM by owning the hardware. However none of us have to buy the DRMed products to use the hardware so that is support of varying degrees. There's nothing stopping me from downloading or buying non-DRMed works and putting them on the Kindle just like our Sony folks are doing. I was originally hoping for the Bookeen or HanLin products to suit my need. Cybook is pretty darned close. So far the Kindle is closest to the feature set I want. I may buy some content from Amazon. Most of it will be from other places. I hope eventually they learn the value of open formats. I'm not going to hold my breath.

tompe
11-21-2007, 06:21 PM
I can't say what the important point is for everyone, but any of us that own Sony Readers (or iPods for that matter) would be supporting DRM by owning the hardware. However none of us have to buy the DRMed products to use the hardware so that is support of varying degrees. There's nothing stopping me from downloading or buying non-DRMed works and putting them on the Kindle just like our Sony folks are doing. I was originally hoping for the Bookeen or HanLin products to suit my need. Cybook is pretty darned close. So far the Kindle is closest to the feature set I want. I may buy some content from Amazon. Most of it will be from other places. I hope eventually they learn the value of open formats. I'm not going to hold my breath.

My point was that Sony is not a bookshop. Amazon is primarily a bookshop at least in peoples mind and therefore you get the negative reaction when a bookshop chooses to sell books in one format only.

edsohsmith
11-21-2007, 06:39 PM
My point was that Sony is not a bookshop. Amazon is primarily a bookshop at least in peoples mind and therefore you get the negative reaction when a bookshop chooses to sell books in one format only.

Agreed 100%.

Additionally Sony has professed upcoming support for epub. Amazon has so far thumbed their nose at the standard.

nekokami
11-21-2007, 08:50 PM
In fact for the wider public the main question is why bother with ANY eReader including Kindle.
Instant gratification? It's a very US thing, don't you think?

I guess most people don't re-read books, so the lack of ability to convert existing content (e.g. p-books, other DRM) may not matter so much to them. To me it's a show-stopper. But I'm in the minority who re-read books (I'd be in the poorhouse, otherwise!)

DaleDe
11-21-2007, 09:11 PM
Agreed 100%.

Additionally Sony has professed upcoming support for epub. Amazon has so far thumbed their nose at the standard.

Actually MobiPocket (owned by Amazon and used for part of the software in the Kindle) has make the same promise as Sony. Both are future ....