View Full Version : ePub page number and margins


Julien Pham
12-20-2011, 03:02 PM
Hi,

I have a DRM free ePub I have bought where I cannot change the margin, when I select the margin in my Kobo Touch it does nothing (I have not this problem with other books).

Is there a way, with Calibre or another software, to fix this?

Another thing: this ePub has a strange way for page numbers. Instead of showing page numbers per chapter as some other ePub books, it shows page numbers as if this was a printed version. I mean I see the page number in the margin, and this does not fit well with my Kobo. For instance I can have the page 12, and the page 13 is in the middle of the next page on my Kobo. If you see what I mean. Any way to fix this as well?

I have bought "Blue Moon rising" from simon r. green and the layout was perfect. Chapters really well done, page number well done (page number in the chapter) and good margins. Then I bought the next book in the series, swords of haven, and this one uses the weird page number system, and really small margins I can adjust.

Thanks

Toxaris
12-20-2011, 03:33 PM
Open the ePUB in Sigil and you can change the margin in the stylesheet. The pagenumbers is caused by the ADE reader engine on your Kobo. For older versions this is quite normal for ePUB's. Unfortunately it is not a thing you can change in the ePUB.

Julien Pham
12-21-2011, 02:55 AM
And is it possible in Sigil to just allow the margins to be setup inside the reader instead of putting fixed margins?

I don't understand your ADE stuff. I have no more DRM on this previously being Adobe DRM file. So isn't it possible to convert this to newer ePub version and have good page numbers?

Thanks

Jellby
12-21-2011, 06:00 AM
And is it possible in Sigil to just allow the margins to be setup inside the reader instead of putting fixed margins?

Just remove any mention of margins in the stylesheets. I don't know how the Kobo works, but chances are it will be able to change the margins if they are not hardcoded in the book.

So isn't it possible to convert this to newer ePub version and have good page numbers?

The page numbers are not (in general) a feature of the book, but of the reader. Even if your book is DRM-free and you don't use ADE transfer books, your reader probably uses the Adobe toolkit for rendering ebooks, and that's what we usually mean when we mention ADE as a reader. Previous versions of Adobe-based readers always display "page numbers" in the margin, and these page numbers are calculated and generated by the reader, they are not in the book.

Julien Pham
12-21-2011, 06:15 AM
Ok I think I understand what happened. I have bought a book in Kobo ePub format from Kobo store. The book was perfect, with good chapter design, and good page number design. For instance, the book as Kobo ePub calc how many pages there are in chapter 4, and display me "Chapter 4 - Page 12 out of 127" for instance.

Now to put on Calibre I have downloaded the book in standard ePub format as well. And this book I have downloaded as ePub do have the page numbers in the margin, and the weird page system and unchangeable margins...

So, Kobo books downloaded as Kobo ePub look fine, standard ePub do not... and so, nothing can be done about that?

Thanks

DSpider
12-21-2011, 08:32 AM
I'm confused. You have a DRM free ePub (meaning a free ePub with DRM on top) or you have a DRM-free ePub?

Because if there's any form of DRM you'd have to remove it first before attempting any modifications.

My guess is that the scan areas weren't properly cropped for the OCR process and so the page numbers got mixed in with the text. It's probably why you see them in the middle of the pages. If it doesn't have any DRM applied to it you can skim the book (either in Sigil or pretty much any text editor) and remove them manually. The page numbers from those "Kobo store" books are calculated by font size - which is the default behaviour for the ePub format. If you increase the font size there will be more pages, if you decrease it (so that more text fits on the screen) you'll have less pages.

Julien Pham
12-21-2011, 08:40 AM
I have an Adobe DRM book I have imported into Calibre and removed the DRM from, in the process. The page number does not appear in the middle of the text but on the right margin. I can remove those page numbers in the margin in the Kobo options so this is not the issue, but it seems that Adobe eBook use fixed page numbers that do not scale with the text. So with Adobe eBook if you have for instance 400 pages at a given font and you double the font size you'll still have 400 pages for the book, but you have to turn two pages on the Kobo to have the page number increased by one.

Whereas with a Kobo ePub when you change the font size it recalculate the page number and so when you advance a page on the book the page number increases by one, and I prefer this way of doing things, as I don't care at all about the original book page count ^^

So I guess this is the way usual ePub works, to have a fixed page number regardless the font size? Or is it the Adobe way of handling this?

If this the the usual ePub way of doing stuff then I'll try to buy my books on Kobo store when I can, and if this the Adobe way of doing this I'll try to find providers which does not use Adobe ePub ;)

The "Blue Moon Rising" Kobo ePub really looks like a printed book when it comes to the look and feel, with the chapter presentation, the book title on top margin, and so on... Swords of Haven, on the other side, does not look that pretty.

frostschutz
12-21-2011, 08:47 AM
So I guess this is the way usual ePub works, to have a fixed page number regardless the font size? Or is it the Adobe way of handling this?

It's Adobe. Plain epub does not really have a concept for page numbers at all.

Julien Pham
12-21-2011, 09:35 AM
And there is no way to convert an Adobe ePub to a plain ePub? ;) (as I said my Adobe ePub is DRM free now ^^)

Edit: ok I just saw we can remove the margin of the css with Calibre when we convert ePub to ePub. Will play a bit with Calibre to try to have a better looking book ^^

Toxaris
12-21-2011, 01:23 PM
ePUB is ePUB. Adobe has some specialities in a separate stylesheet, which is ignored by non-ADE readers and can usually be removed without much problems. I have never heard of Kobo ePUB, but it should be a normal ePUB. There is a special kind of ePUB on the nook, which can only be read on the Nook and is a kind of pdf.

Julien Pham
12-21-2011, 01:26 PM
The Kobo ePub can only be read on the Kobo as well, but it is ePub just in a special format. But when you buy a book on Kobo store you can download the Adobe ePub version as well.

DiapDealer
12-21-2011, 06:12 PM
I have never heard of Kobo ePUB, but it should be a normal ePUB.
It's a kepub. I'm not kidding. And it contains a normal ePub, plus some other crap as well. But when you buy from Kobo, you should always have the option of downloading the regular old ePub instead of the kepub nonsense.

Julien Pham
12-22-2011, 01:35 AM
I will not call the extra features "crap" ;) when I compare the same book in standard ePub or in kepub, I really find the kepub version a lot prettier ;)

Toxaris
12-22-2011, 02:36 AM
Sorry, I agree that it is crap and no real ePUB. The issues you mention should not even be there if Kobo actually bothered to update the ADE engine instead of using an old one. If you download an ePUB, you should be able to read it on all ePUB readers. Not a special one for Kobo, Nook, iBooks and so on. If they think they need the 'special' features, call the format differently and not ePUB.

Julien Pham
12-22-2011, 04:26 AM
Hey the call the format differently, they call it kepub ;)
But I really think that page number system is not useless. As long as you have a book where you turn page, because yes you turn pages in a kobo, sony reader or any other eBook device, the page number system is not dead. When you'll start to scroll instead of turning page (which I don't like) then I'll agree page number becomes useless.
So as long as page number is concerned, and as long at is is not useless, then I think they should display it the good way, I mean having the page according the size font, so as ONE page is what fits on the screen ^^

But this is perhaps because this is an old ADE version as you said, and that new ADE version display pages the good way? Or not?

It is Adobe which have invented the eBook? I wonder why we always talk about an ADE engine, as it is just a way of display plain text, and not all eBooks come from ADE.

According to what I read on the net, Kobo uses a proprietary engine to display eBooks, an engine which can display ePub as well as kepub and some other formats.

Toxaris
12-22-2011, 03:07 PM
Adobe made the leading ePUB rendering engine. All the rendering engines should follow the same specifications and more or less give the same results. More or less because some specifications are quite open for interpretation.
ADE does not produce books, but just interprets them. Kobo has written its own ePUB rendering engine, but I think they actually use an older version of ADE and adapted that.

Julien Pham
12-22-2011, 03:14 PM
When I launch my book on ADE I have the same weird page number system though ;) So I doubt newer ADE engine versions are better ;)

ghostyjack
12-22-2011, 05:30 PM
Newer ADE engines are better, I've got a T1 (with a newer ADE engine) and the page numbers are no longer displayed on the right-hand side, I only get page number on the bottom of the screen below the actual reading area.

Their method of page-numbering remains the same though. i.e. a page is represented by a 1000 characters of the file.

Jim Lester
12-22-2011, 05:43 PM
When I launch my book on ADE I have the same weird page number system though ;) So I doubt newer ADE engine versions are better ;)

ADE 1.7 is several years old at this point and there have been several RMSDK (the underlying rendering engine) since it came out. If you want to see what a newer version of ADE will look like you can go to labs.adobe.com and download the preview version of ADE 1.8.

DaleDe
12-22-2011, 07:14 PM
Their method of page-numbering remains the same though. i.e. a page is represented by a 1000 characters of the file.

There are a lot of advantages to that method instead of each screen. If you want to tell someone what page you are on you don't need to specify the size of the font and font family and the margin you used to determine the page number. Have a single number that is not font-family, font size and margin dependent is a good thing in my opinion although I do like the way Sony did pages with 2-1, 2-2, ..., 3-1 etc to provide both a ADE number and a screen sub-number. I do not know if this has been continued with the current product as I haven't seen one.

Dale

Toxaris
12-23-2011, 02:16 AM
I agree. Perhaps they should not call it pages, since it is not actually a page, but at least it can function as a kind of pointer.

Julien Pham
12-23-2011, 02:25 AM
I don't care telling someone what "page" I'm in ;) Usually the ones I talk to about a book know the printed book, not the eBook one ;) And so even if I tell them I'm on page 120, this will not be the page 120 of the printed book ^^

Usually I talk more about chapters than pages ;)

But I think we should have the choice: a %, the number of page according to chapter, or end of book, or a fixed page system, this way we have the best of all worlds ^^

The fact is I don't like turning two pages to see the page number increased by one, and I like to know how many pages left till the end of the chapter, so I could know if it is doable or not to go to the end of chapter before going to sleep...

ghostyjack
12-23-2011, 09:18 AM
There are a lot of advantages to that method instead of each screen. If you want to tell someone what page you are on you don't need to specify the size of the font and font family and the margin you used to determine the page number. Have a single number that is not font-family, font size and margin dependent is a good thing in my opinion although I do like the way Sony did pages with 2-1, 2-2, ..., 3-1 etc to provide both a ADE number and a screen sub-number. I do not know if this has been continued with the current product as I haven't seen one.

Dale

I'm not disagreeing with you as I've got consistency across all my epub devices.

As to the Sony implementation; I'm currently on Page 7-8 of 316 according to my T1. You may not get screen sub-numbers but at least you can understand you are going to change pages.

No matter what solution anyone chooses so as to get perfect page numbering on their device, it will only be good for a single set of parameters and cannot be 100% successful on other devices or for other people.

ADE's solution is a compromise, but a compromise that can provide a consistant parameter/device/person agnostic method of displaying page numbers.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it works.

JSWolf
12-26-2011, 10:13 PM
Adobe made the leading ePUB rendering engine. All the rendering engines should follow the same specifications and more or less give the same results. More or less because some specifications are quite open for interpretation.
ADE does not produce books, but just interprets them. Kobo has written its own ePUB rendering engine, but I think they actually use an older version of ADE and adapted that.

And Kobo's version of ADE has some serious bugs they refuse to fix such as the embedded font bug where putting the font-family to turn on an embedded font gets ignored.