This seems to be the latest official release about the Cybook Gen3 (as on 7 Oct, 2007): its price, release deadline, formats, new design, etc

http://www.teleread.org/blog/

It says:

"From the Bookeen blog:

We have recently released the 0.98 version of the firmware. As announced previously, in this version we do support PDF format with some features as fit width, fit page, fit height and rotate 0°, 90°, 180°,270°.

The software will be ready on time and, as already said, the supported formats will be for this first release: Mobipocket (encrypted and unencrypted), HTML, PalmDoc, Txt and PDF. RTF and other formats supports will come on further firmware releases. The firmware update will, of course, be possible for every Cybook Gen3 possessor. The Cybook final design has been slightly modified, the surface treatment is not glossy anymore but keeps its soft touch. The navigation button has also been modified to be easier to press on.

Concerning our release date, the Cybook Gen3 will be definitely available before end of October. We will send very soon an official release date via our newsletter (subscribe here) and this blog. At this occasion we will also announce the opening of Cybook Gen3 pre-sales on our website.

Concerning the price we confirm a $350 for US territory and 350 Euros for Europe."

Sounds really interesting. Hope it goes on sale soon.

350 euros ????

More expensive for European people !!!!
A very bad news...

350 euros ????

More expensive for European people !!!!
A very bad news...

It is always like that. The price in the US is without taxes. In Europe the VAT is included. And that is around 19%

Try buying the new Sony in the US. It is $300. You will pay about $80 for transport, 6-10% import duties and 19% VAT over the complete deal. Do the math and you end up with something like 340 Euro.

It is always like that. The price in the US is without taxes. In Europe the VAT is included. And that is around 19%


19.6% in France, which is what everyone in the EU will pay. If you live outside the EU, you won't be charged VAT but you will then have to pay whatever local import duties apply.

350€ inc. 19,6% VAT means 292€ without (350/1,196) = +-414$ (1E=+-1,42$)

So European pay an extra 64$ for the gen3.

So European pay an extra 64$ for the gen3.
... and get 2 years of warranty. Well, € = $ is a common practice, is it not?

350€ inc. 19,6% VAT means 292€ without (350/1,196) = +-414$ (1E=+-1,42$)

So European pay an extra 64$ for the gen3.


Not quite. You also get the 2 years warranty that you have by law in Europe instead of the 90 days in the US

19.6% in France, which is what everyone in the EU will pay. If you live outside the EU, you won't be charged VAT but you will then have to pay whatever local import duties apply.

Harry, what do you prefer ? Sony Reader or Iliad Irex ? Thank You !

Harry, what do you prefer ? Sony Reader or Iliad Irex ? Thank You !
Fred, the real question is what do you want to do with your eink device should you buy one? Both are good. If you just want to read books, then the 505, if you want to do more then read books, then iLiad.

Ok JSWOLF thank's.

Is anybody thinking of other part of the world Africa, Asia, Australia, South America there is a lot of market in these areas infact it is the home to so many people even more than North America and Europe

I'm now holding my breath for the the new ebook reader... I was originally thinking about the sony 505, but looks like the sony connect doesn't have as much books as the mobipocket store. That's why I think may be the gen3 is a better choice.

What do you guys think?

I agree with Fred that the price in Europe is too high, but moreover I cannot see ebook readers becoming more widely accepted unless prices drop by a big margin. At 350€ the Cybook is going to be well above what most readers would be prepared to fork out for a device which - compared with other gadgets at 350€ - has very limited functionality. Until they are down to 100-150€ most consumers will not give them a second thought. I read ebooks avidly, mostly from Many Books and Project Gutenberg, and I would love to have a device that offers a bigger, clearer screen, but not at 350€.

350 Euro?
PHEW!!!
350 Euro is almost 500 Dollars!
Come on ...
Even with the 19.6% VAT the $350 price becomes $418,6
... and do not try to tell me the difference is in the European 2 year warranty.
A two year service plan for Sony Reader at sonystyle.com (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&categoryId=27210&storeId=10151&langId=-1#) costs whooping 25 bucks!
That would make the price $443.6
We are still being ripped for almost 60 bucks!

I know, I know ...
I am beating that dead horse again :deadhorse:
I can't help myself when I see such a balant ripoff.

I am really sick and tired.
And I suspect that manufacturers abuse our VAT and longer warranty as an excuse to rip us off. Whatever you buy here in Europe - from iPod, iMac, e-ink reader to Kitchenaid (http://www.kitchenaid.com/home.jsp) kitchen appliance is much more expensive than in the USA.

Not quite. You also get the 2 years warranty that you have by law in Europe instead of the 90 days in the US
2 Year Service Plan for a product in a $250-$500 price range costs a whooping $24,99 at sonystyle.com (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&categoryId=27210&storeId=10151&langId=-1#)

Can you actually buy a service plan for Sony from Europe?

The VAT in Sweden is 25% and the custum is around 5% so buying the Sony PRS-505 for $300 will result in a cost of $395 plus cost for delivery plus $25 if you can buy a service plan.

I will probably by a Gen 3 when it is available. Does anybody know if a SDK will be available?

There were some noises from Bookeen (or was it NAEB?) about releasing the SDK. Haven't heard any confirmation recently though.

Can you actually buy a service plan for Sony from Europe?


No. Buy a Sony Reader outside the US and you have, in effect, no warranty whatsoever. Sony Europe won't touch it if it goes wrong.

Can you actually buy a service plan for Sony from Europe?
Of course you can ;-)
... all you need is a credit card with an USA billing address.
PLUS, when the Reader breaks you have to send it to USA for repairs somehow,
AND have to pay for having it sent back to Europe. :)

I was talking about the cost of two year warranty.
For lack of other meaningful numbers I looked at SONY, becouse there you can purchase an aditional Service, or even FOUR year Service Plus Accidental Handling Damage - for about the same money as ((350Eur) - ($350+19%VAT)).
If SONY can do a two year warranty for 25 bucks, Booken should be able to do it for similar cost.

I just wrote an email to Bookeen about the EURO pricing, please do the same. And DO NOT buy in Europe until they drop the EURO price.
When will companies notice that there is a thing called exchange rate!!! When 1 EUR will be worth $100???

When 1 EUR will be worth $100???

According to some in a couple of years


http://www.ipopebooks.com/dollarcollapse.html

I'm not sure if it is also an e-book

I just wrote an email to Bookeen about the EURO pricing, please do the same. And DO NOT buy in Europe until they drop the EURO price.
When will companies notice that there is a thing called exchange rate!!! When 1 EUR will be worth $100???

BlackVoid,

C'mon. Be reasonable. Bookeen has to deal with the EU's VAT. That adds a tremendous burden on any retailer, so the Euro prices will always be higher. And with the Dollar tanking against other currencies, it's just going to get worse.

Derek

BlackVoid,

C'mon. Be reasonable. Bookeen has to deal with the EU's VAT. That adds a tremendous burden on any retailer, so the Euro prices will always be higher. And with the Dollar tanking against other currencies, it's just going to get worse.

Derek

In fairness, though, the current exchange rate is €1 = $1.41, so effectively the CyBook is 41% more expensive in Europe than in the US. The VAT rate in France is only 19.6%, which only accounts for half the difference. However you look at it, it does rather seem that we Europeans are being charged some 20% more than Americans.

A question for you, Derek: I'm signed up with NAEB. Does that mean that I will be able to buy the CyBook from you at the US price?

In fairness, though, the current exchange rate is €1 = $1.41, so effectively the CyBook is 41% more expensive in Europe than in the US. The VAT rate in France is only 19.6%, which only accounts for half the difference. However you look at it, it does rather seem that we Europeans are being charged some 20% more than Americans.

A question for you, Derek: I'm signed up with NAEB. Does that mean that I will be able to buy the CyBook from you at the US price?

The biggest hurdle we have at this time is what kind of shipping to use and what, if any, import duties there are while going back to Europe... Lots of gray area there which we're muddling through.

Derek

I am going for the new Sony reader at $300. I will order from the US. I am rather paying the tariff than the premium for Bookeen's idiotic pricing. Are they living on this planet? On the planet I am living on, the dollar is going bust. I just hope it drops to 3 dollars for 1 EUR and all the companies who price without considering the exchange rate go out of business.

I do not care about VAT. Post the net price excluding VAT.

I am going for the new Sony reader at $300. I will order from the US. I am rather paying the tariff than the premium for Bookeen's idiotic pricing. Are they living on this planet? On the planet I am living on, the dollar is going bust. I just hope it drops to 3 dollars for 1 EUR and all the companies who price without considering the exchange rate go out of business.

I do not care about VAT. Post the net price excluding VAT.

Can't really post the net price. That's not been set yet. And Bookeen's pricing probably is the best it can manage in Europe. Living in the US, I deal with a different set of problems and issues.

Derek

Best it can manage for Europe? Thats weird. It is a european company. They can "manage" a much lower price for the US. Weird.

Best it can manage for Europe? Thats weird. It is a european company. They can "manage" a much lower price for the US. Weird.


I don't know this, so I'm only guessing. But I'd presume that devices built for export to the US may well be (once the firmware is finalized) flashed-in at the physical manufacturing facility and directly shipped to the US or, at most, transshipped at an 'International Warehouse' where they, 'legally', never enter Europe. That's how some items are handled here in the US.

But here again, I'm only guessing. Still, if that is the case, it may be that none of the VAT and any other duties are applied. And as I have only a vague (mis)understanding of how these things work, I could have it completely wrong - this is not, in any way, shape or form, my area of expertise. :o

Will the Naeb-version and the non Naeb-version differ in any way? Will I be able to do the same things on both versions?

From an European perspektive it seems much easier to buy directly from Bookeen.

Yes both version will be identical, at least at first.

Will the Naeb-version and the non Naeb-version differ in any way? Will I be able to do the same things on both versions?

From an European perspektive it seems much easier to buy directly from Bookeen.

Yes both version will be identical, at least at first.

And what will be different later? How much later?

And what will be different later? How much later?

Love your enthusiasm, but could we wait until Bookeen actually releases the Cybook Gen3 before we start exploring what changes/upgrades/new-versions are to come? :D

Derek

I see many people talking about euro pricing strategy:
According to LVD this is what bookeen is quoting to prospective euro distributors
... I have received recently the offer on CyBook in Europe:

Cybook: (FOB in Euro)
-> 100 - 270
-> 500 - 260
-> 1000 - 250
-> 5000 - 240



Maybe it's time for a group purchase? ;)
'cause remember there will be shipping costs on top of their official €350 so it will probably be like €380, and I'd say not earlier than 1st Week of November.

(This is according to a comment from Michael on their blog: "I confirm that the device will be available during the 3rd or the 4th weeks of october." + shipping

I'd estimate a 30% margin for Bookeen. From that the have to cover internal costs + make a profit.
That's what companies are for remember?

Also Keep in mind Bookeen can't afford Sony's volume, and as a result they probably have higher manufacturing costs. ($200 or +)

Still think it's expensive?

Buying a new reader from the competition might sound cheap, but you won't get it delivered in Europe for less than €300. (and that is with no warranty at all).

For europeans it makes more sense to buy directly from Bookeen. In the end you are right Bookeen will certainly make more money from EU sales, so what?

{
That is of course unless the nice guys at NAEB could agree to get creative with customs declarations.. :D I'd think that might give them huge sales...
}

The biggest hurdle we have at this time is what kind of shipping to use and what, if any, import duties there are while going back to Europe... Lots of gray area there which we're muddling through.

Derek

I'm sure you're aware of this, but you don't have to worry about things like import duties; that's down to the customer, not the shipper.

19.6% in France, which is what everyone in the EU will pay. If you live outside the EU, you won't be charged VAT but you will then have to pay whatever local import duties apply.Good grief, 19.6% tax!! Maybe it's time for the EU to have it's own tax revolt? Folks here in my state are upset that the sales tax jumped to 6% a few years ago.

If you look at the overall tax burden in all western countries, it's pretty much the same (about 55% of total income). The EU simply chooses to collect it in a rather different way to how it's done in the US. Remember that we do not, generally speaking, have to pay for things like university education and healthcare; it's funded by the government out of taxation.

Do y'all still have an income tax, HarryT?

Of course we do :). But we do, for example, generally pay far less than you do in property taxes. It's all swings and roundabouts.

Yeah, I know what you're saying. :shrug:

As a general rule, Europeans pay more tax than Americans, but we get more out of it - eg free education and health care. If you look at the overall average of what people spend on stuff like that, it all works out pretty much the same. We all have our own way of doing things.

As a general rule, Europeans pay more tax than Americans, but we get more out of it - eg free education and health care. If you look at the overall average of what people spend on stuff like that, it all works out pretty much the same. We all have our own way of doing things.

Free education? I hope you're talking university-level education here. Because education is a given, and government-paid-for, to every child between Kindergarten and 12th grade here in the US. Yes, parents *can* choose to pay for private schooling, but they don't have to.

As for medical, you'd be surprised how many people get government-funded health care as well as employer-paid health insurance. No, it's not total, but the percentage of Americans who don't get some form of free/insurance-covered health care isn't that high.

Derek

No, it's not total, but the percentage of Americans who don't get some form of free/insurance-covered health care isn't that high.And the percentage of non-U.S.-Citizens ... but that's a totally other ball of wax ....

Free education? I hope you're talking university-level education here.

Yes, I am.

As for medical, you'd be surprised how many people get government-funded health care as well as employer-paid health insurance. No, it's not total, but the percentage of Americans who don't get some form of free/insurance-covered health care isn't that high.Derek

Our government spends a ton on healthcare compared to other countries and even with private/employer-provided healthcare out there we still have nowhere near universal coverage. Children are covered, but many working adults are left on their own for that. Plus our private insurance is so expensive it makes it very hard for us to compete globally. However, back to the tax thing: we don't count all that money we pay into our private/employer-provided insurance as taxes. Many also don't count Social Security as taxes when they compare our tax burden to that of our friends in the EU. While they're not taxes, they are money that we're paying out of pocket for things others get from their taxes. Many families pay hundreds a month in premiums out of their paychecks for their employer's healthcare plans, then have to pay a deductible (often a couple thousand a year) and copays. That doesn't even count the employer subsidy for the plan.

Free education? I hope you're talking university-level education here. Because education is a given, and government-paid-for, to every child between Kindergarten and 12th grade here in the US. Yes, parents *can* choose to pay for private schooling, but they don't have to.

As for medical, you'd be surprised how many people get government-funded health care as well as employer-paid health insurance. No, it's not total, but the percentage of Americans who don't get some form of free/insurance-covered health care isn't that high.

Derek
LOL. I guess if count "numbers in the millions" as not high. From the Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation (ASPE) and U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

According to the Census Bureau's 2005 Current Population Survey (CPS), there were 45.8 million uninsured individuals in 2004, or 15.7% of the civilian non-institutionalized population.

Free education? I hope you're talking university-level education here. Because education is a given, and government-paid-for, to every child between Kindergarten and 12th grade here in the US. Yes, parents *can* choose to pay for private schooling, but they don't have to.

Best we don't get into the difference between "public and private schools" in the US and UK. Stephen Fry described it best in his autobiography Moab is my Washpot.

From Moab is my Washpot - Chapter 1 (New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/fry-moab.html)....
There may be some reading this who are hazy (and proudly so) about the precise meanings of "prep school" and "public school."

A prep school is an establishment designed, as the name implies, untypically for a British institution, to prepare a child. In this instance the preparation is for public school. Public school, as the name decidedly does not imply, very typically for a British institution, is wholly private. Public schools undertake to guide, mould and instruct pupils aged between thirteen and eighteen. Prep schools accept their intake from somewhere in the region of eight, nine or ten years old, and prepare them for the Common Entrance Examination, a test recognised by all the public schools. Different public schools are satisfied by different CE results. Thus Winchester, which has an interest in only the cleverest boys, would expect CE marks way above seventy per cent, while Malvern and Worksop and Monckton Combe, by way of example, might be content with percentages in the nether fifties or upper forties. There is, it follows, no absolute pass mark in the Common Entrance. Public schools can decide whom they take according to their need to have a fully pupilled and profitable school roll, according to their own sense of academic reputation, according to a candidate's athletic, musical or artistic qualities, or according to his status as offspring of an old boy or a Great, Rich and Desirable Parent.

Sure makes that Sorting Hat look pretty good. :grin2:

Clearly 'public' schools in the UK are the (in general terms) equivalent of our high schools.

No. A "public" school in the UK is an exclusive private school. What you call "public schools" (ie the normal schools which virtually everybody attends) we call "state schools".

So to change back to the tax thing :disappoin

Will Bookeen charge the same end user price for the Cybook everywhere in Europe that has the euro?

Given that there seems to be differing tax rates in different countries, even in those euro countries, doesn't that mean that the money that goes back to Bookeen differs from country to country?

Cost in Euros - tax = money to Bookeen.

Is this the case?

Given that there seems to be differing tax rates in different countries, even in those euro countries, doesn't that mean that the money that goes back to Bookeen differs from country to country?

Cost in Euros - tax = money to Bookeen.

Is this the case?

Not exactly, Bookeen will always have to charge french VAT to consumers.
i.e.: if they charge VAT they must charge the french rate.

But businesses or professionals from other EU countries will be able to buy Cybook directly without VAT as log as they provide a VAT ID number.

If ever Bookeen decides to expand operations and seeks local distribution in other EU countries then it could make a difference for local consumers and distributors, but not to bookeen.

Let me explain: Let's suppose bookeen's price for distributors is €250, the as log as distributors respected the MSRP, then yes, there could/would be a small -+3% profit difference among different distributors.

To sum it up, Bookeen doen't care, they would always get those €250, the only tax bookeen cares about is the corporate income tax. :D

God I hate tax law. :knife:

nah, just kidding :)

So to change back to the tax thing :disappoin

Will Bookeen charge the same end user price for the Cybook everywhere in Europe that has the euro?

Nothing to do with having the Euro. The price will be the same across the EU.

Given that there seems to be differing tax rates in different countries, even in those euro countries, doesn't that mean that the money that goes back to Bookeen differs from country to country?

Cost in Euros - tax = money to Bookeen.

Is this the case?

No. The way that VAT works is that the seller charges HIS rate of VAT to people anywhere in the EU, regardless of what the rate is in the buyer's country.

A buyer in a country NOT in the EU (eg Switzerland) would not be charged VAT, but would then be liable to pay whatever local taxes apply on receipt of the package.

OK - so the price is the same across the EU. The price to the user or the pre tax price?

If it's the end use price and the tax rates differ between countries then the pre-tax price has to be different surely.

If 350 is the pre-tax price then the point is moot :)

OK - so the price is the same across the EU. The price to the user or the pre tax price?

If it's the end use price and the tax rates differ between countries then the pre-tax price has to be different surely.

If 350 is the pre-tax price then the point is moot :)

No.

As I stated above, if someone in the EU sells a product to someone else in the EU, the VAT rate charged is that of the SELLER'S country, not the BUYER'S country. Everybody in the EU will therefore be charged the French VAT rate of 19.6%, regardless of what the VAT rate is in their own country.

ahhhh - now it makes it's way into my dense skull!

Ta

No.

As I stated above, if someone in the EU sells a product to someone else in the EU, the VAT rate charged is that of the SELLER'S country, not the BUYER'S country. Everybody in the EU will therefore be charged the French VAT rate of 19.6%, regardless of what the VAT rate is in their own country.

Not really. This is generally true if the seller is selling low numbers to the buyers country, but above some level of sales he should register:

Businesses can be required to register for VAT in EU member states, other than the one in which they are based, if they supply goods via mail order to those states, over a certain threshold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#Rules_on_pricing_within_the_EU

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. The situation I describe is the one where the seller is registered for VAT. If the seller is not VAT registered, then obviously they won't charge VAT to the customer.

An example:
Amazon DE is based in Germany and charges German VAT rates. This is also true if Amazon DE sells to customers in Poland. But if sales from Amazon DE to customers in Poland reach certain threshold, say 100k euro per year, Amazon DE is per EU laws required to register in Poland and charge customers from Poland Poland's VAT rates, instead of German. Of course I don't know exact numbers.

An example:
Amazon DE is based in Germany and charges German VAT rates. This is also true if Amazon DE sells to customers in Poland. But if sales from Amazon DE to customers in Poland reach certain threshold, say 100k euro per year, Amazon DE is required to register in Poland and charge customers from Poland Poland's VAT rates, instead of German. Of course I don't know exact numbers.

Perhaps this is something which varies from country to country? I run a business here in the UK, and that's certainly NOT the situation here. I can sell as much as I wish to any other EU country without having to register for VAT in that country! I have to declare sales to other EU countries separately on my VAT return every 3 months, but that's all.

I find it amusing, in a grim way, that we blithely accept such terms as "value added tax" and "digital rights management". George Orwell would be proud of the inventors of such doublespeak. I know all about who's "digital rights" are being managed (certainly not mine), but being an American, I have to ask--exactly what "value" is being added to your purchase by a tax of up to 19% on everything you buy?

I know this isn't on topic, but none of the recent posts seem to be, so don't shoot me :)

The value is not added by the tax, but is is tax you pay over the value of the product.

One way or another, you have to pay money to live. It is comparable with the sales tax in the US

Perhaps this is something which varies from country to country? I run a business here in the UK, and that's certainly NOT the situation here. I can sell as much as I wish to any other EU country without having to register for VAT in that country! I have to declare sales to other EU countries separately on my VAT return every 3 months, but that's all.
Sorry, I don't know the details. When I order something from Amazon.de, Amazon charges Slovak VAT and not German. The exact rules are unknown to me.

And yes, it is off topic :).

The reason it's called "value added tax" is that a seller only pays tax on the value that they "add" to the product.

Eg, if you buy a widget wholesale for £1000, and resell it for £1500, you only pay VAT on the £500 that you are "adding" to the value, hence the name.

Our VAT rates may seem high to you, but if you look at the total burden of direct and indirect taxation, plus the stuff that we get out of our taxes that you have to pay insurance premiums for, it all works out pretty much the same. We just do things in different ways.

On the specs page of their website, bookeen has changed the color of the unit from shiny black to frosted black.

Yeah, they announced they would change from a glossy to a matte finish.

Less fingerprints will show that way.