The latest Bookeen newsletter says that the Gen 3 launch has been delayed to October - no surprises there! Good news, however, is that it will include PDF support, and that there'll be a new version of the MobiPocket Desktop Client which will automatically recognise it.

Harry, as a fellow resident of the UK, I was wondering how the cost of the Cybook will compare with the Sony when tax is taken into consideration. I think I have heard $350 mentioned for the Cybook. The Cybook would seem the better deal for residents of the UK/EEC ie not having to pay import duty/tax and having a valid warranty.

Also what do you think the chances are of Sony making the 505 available in the UK?

Well, if I will get a well tested and well working device, I can wait til Christmas. :)

I would have hoped that the CyBook would work out rather cheaper for us. As you say, we wouldn't pay import duty (7%), but we would pay the French VAT rate which, at 19.6%, is a little higher than our own.

I certainly plan to buy one as soon as it becomes available.

Well, if I will get a well tested and well working device, I can wait til Christmas. :)
Don't hold your breath. I realize I'm in the minority but I'm also the one that has said since Feb that Bookeen wouldn't ship this year and that earlier estimates were very optimistic.

Probably get slapped down again but frankly I don't really care anymore.

I'm not actually that bothered, roncri. I'll buy a Gen 3 when it's released and "finished", and I'd much rather that the release was delayed rather than an unfinished product be released merely to meet some arbitrary deadline. I don't particularly care whether it's October or January; I'll buy it when it's available.

I'm not actually that bothered, roncri. I'll buy a Gen 3 when it's released and "finished", and I'd much rather that the release was delayed rather than an unfinished product be released merely to meet some arbitrary deadline. I don't particularly care whether it's October or January; I'll buy it when it's available.Heh, I see your point, HarryT, but it's a lot easier to take that view when you're not waiting for your first e-ink device to be released. :grin:

Heh, I see your point, HarryT, but it's a lot easier to take that view when you're not waiting for your first e-ink device to be released. :grin:Exactly. These are trying times for first time buyers.

Yep the same here. I'm going on a long 2 month journey in December-January. If I cannot get the Gen 3 in October it is to bad but I will buy the Sony 505. Simply because I need the time to fill it with books

Yep the same here. I'm going on a long 2 month journey in December-January. If I cannot get the Gen 3 in October it is to bad but I will buy the Sony 505. Simply because I need the time to fill it with books
Basically the same. If this ships in October fine, if not, I'm getting one of the new Sony units. It's been over a year since NAEB started talking about a reader, I'm done waiting.

Basically the same. If this ships in October fine, if not, I'm getting one of the new Sony units. It's been over a year since NAEB started talking about a reader, I'm done waiting.

Roncri,

Sorry to hear that. But you must understand, NAEB is four people - with limited resources. When we first started looking into bringing out an ebook reader, we were hoping to have an OEM make one for us. That proved to be *FAR* too expensive an option - and it still is. So we decided to see if we could become an agent for/market an eInk reader manufactured by one of the current sources - an ebook reader which would support both a popular DRM'd format as well as non-DRM ebooks.

At the time we made the decision to more closely examine Bookeen's Cybook Gen3, it was pretty much impossible to work out a deal with Sony and Hanlin used it's funky WOL format - which has the same proprietary issues as Sony does. That left either STAReBOOK or iRex's iLiad with the outside possibility of Bookeen. We've never really had a chance to study the STAReBOOK and the iLiad is so far out of the price range of our potential customer base as to preclude working with them.

That left Bookeen. So what would you have us do? Shove Yet Another Unknown and Proprietary Format down your throat by going with the current generation of Hanlin readers? Throw away all our efforts - and Bookeen's - and re-attempt to make our own unit? Or attempt to work a deal with iRex and say 'screw you' to those of our customers who can't afford the luxury model?

Please, you tell me. I'd really like to know.

Derek

delphidb96 do you have so little belie f in the timely succesfull completion of the cybook 3 or do you have faith in i t?

delphidb96 do you have so little belie f in the timely succesfull completion of the cybook 3 or do you have faith in i t?

Hello,

Hmmm... *DO* I have 'so little belief'? That is a very relevant question. One with no easy or simple answer, or so I believe right this moment.

You must understand that we at NAEB did *NOT* receive our promised firmware update - in fact we will have to wait at least until Friday (and maybe beyond, but the promise is Friday). If I had the firmware update and could see the progress *already made*, I could give a resounding *YES* to your question about having faith in it. If I had to state an opinion based *SOLELY* upon the version 0.91 firmware and on my current level of frustration - at this moment - well... my faith is a bit rocky right now.

Do I see potential in the Cybook Gen3? Yes. Yes I do. Do I believe the folks at Bookeen will end up delivering a solid product. Yes again. Do I believe they'll bring it to market by the end of the month? Ask me again next Monday.

Do I like being able to create Mobi versions of my current HTML and RTF files, complete with Tables of Content and the like? You betcha! Do I regret that the current HTML reader doesn't handle hyperlinks to other files? Absolutely! Do I believe that problem will go away in near-future updates? Yes. Am I frustrated by the fact that each Mobi ebook *must* be in the My Documents|My eBooks folder - with no ability to create sub-folders for my various genre categories? Undeniably! Again, that problem, as with the inability to open and read purchased Secure Mobipocket ebooks, should go away soon.

Will I be doing a 'preliminary' review of the Cybook Gen3? Yes. We've decided to do the preliminary reviews based upon the version we've got in hand - we're not waiting any longer.

Derek

Delphi -
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a delay in Bookeen receiving the screens from the manufacturer one of the main reasons for the engineering samples coming to you late? That's rather beyond their control. It probably forced them to try to compact their firmware development schedule. Sounds like they may have been overly optimistic. I'm sure we all would have liked to see the firmware come out a bit more quickly but I would imagine they've got a much smaller development team than Sony. Personally I'm ok with waiting a bit if the end product has the features and quality that I want. Maybe it's because I work in development as well, but I see first hand how these things happen. It makes me inclined to cut folks a little slack here and there.

Thing on the firmware, Alisa, is (or I imagine part of it is) that Bookeen has had the updated firmware for some time, evidently -- judging by its appearances on UTube, anyway -- but hasn't managed to get a copy of it to Derek and his colleagues at NAEB -- that shouldn't be dependent on PVI's e-ink panel production issues.

If they'd gotten him the firmware update before now, or shipped the sample out with it in the first place, NAEB wouldn't be forced to decide whether to review what they've finally gotten (after a very long wait) or wait yet longer in hopes that Bookeen ... deals with whatever it is that's holding them up, in a timelier fashion than they've demonstrated the ability to do thus far. :shrug:

I'm guessing the firmware isn't coming out because it still has some major showstopping bugs. Getting something to work in a demo isn't the same as having code you can give to a user.

Point. :chinscratch:

But if anything, that makes the situation worse from NAEB's perspective, rather than better, especially if Bookeen isn't explaining the delays (which it doesn't sound like they're doing very effectively). :shrug:

In my experience that's a common mistake the marketeers make. They think the customer will have a lower opinion of your product if you just level with them than if you let them sit, stew, and imagine the worst.

Please, you tell me. I'd really like to know.

Derek
Ok you asked for it. First let me say that I truly believe that the NAEB board is trying their best, but yes, I have some issues.

1. I've asked before but never really got an answer. Who on the board has experience dealing with an OEM in matters like this? I have, and frankly it's a PITA. You have to have very detailed contracts that spell out both milestones and penalties for missing those milestones. You may not get your product any sooner but the OEM's milestone estimates become a lot more accurate.

2. The decision to keep this a "Family Business" and only look for funding with the Barflies. 1.5-2.0 million in financing would have let you place an order for at least 5,000 units and would have given you a lot more leverage with the OEM.

I have no problem with what NAEB is trying to accomplish or their dedication. I do have problems with some of their decisions and the consequences that came out of them.

or shipped the sample out with it in the first place, NAEB wouldn't be forced to decide whether to review what they've finally gotten
well i think naeb cant distance themselves from the unproffessionalism that easy. its all about how you think about treating your customer as said above here. obviously naeb wanted to put out a sales letter instead of a review. thats not what people expect as said before. people expect the truth and nothing more. naeb could have written about that a long time ago to stand behind their own effort. if they did. but its better to realize a bit late it works this way than not to realize it at all. looking forward to the review but would appreciate you 'stick your hand in your own buzem' as well as a local saying goes. not just for speaking frustrations, but also for being a part of their existence. and for your customers it would be best as well by the way if you display some form of affection and/or care for your supplier regardless how low your expectations are.

Ok you asked for it. First let me say that I truly believe that the NAEB board is trying their best, but yes, I have some issues.


1. I've asked before but never really got an answer. Who on the board has experience dealing with an OEM in matters like this? I have, and frankly it's a PITA. You have to have very detailed contracts that spell out both milestones and penalties for missing those milestones. You may not get your product any sooner but the OEM's milestone estimates become a lot more accurate.

Answer: *NONE* of us. Of course, had someone - such as yourself - offered to pony up the same share of startup money as the rest of us did, you too could have been on the NAEB board. Where were you, hmmm...? Funny, but your comments strike me as Tuesday-Morning quarterbacking - from the safety and comfort of your Barcalounger.


2. The decision to keep this a "Family Business" and only look for funding with the Barflies. 1.5-2.0 million in financing would have let you place an order for at least 5,000 units and would have given you a lot more leverage with the OEM.

Answer: We *didn't* try to keep this a 'family business'. But what we *did* look into was the process of outside funding. Guess what? We're too small for the V-Caps and too niche-market. And raising the money by selling shares or bonds - weeeeell... That was out of the question as well. That left deep-pocket relatives - of which those of us who *DID* chip in to form NAEB, didn't have. Again. Lot's of Tuesday-Morning quarterbacking. Man, that Barcalounger must be *VERY* comfortable.


I have no problem with what NAEB is trying to accomplish or their dedication. I do have problems with some of their decisions and the consequences that came out of them.

Thanks for the 'after-the-horse-has-escaped' barn-door closing. You have a problem with our decisions? Why didn't you join NAEB and offer it earlier?

Derek

I'm guessing the firmware isn't coming out because it still has some major showstopping bugs. Getting something to work in a demo isn't the same as having code you can give to a user.


So very true. And we at NAEB have queried them on this, but to be honest, we've also sat back and waited for the followthrough. It's not here. So we are going to go ahead and review what we have. The bad with the good.

Derek

In my experience that's a common mistake the marketeers make. They think the customer will have a lower opinion of your product if you just level with them than if you let them sit, stew, and imagine the worst.

Geez! You think?!? Alisa, *NONE* of us at NAEB got these engineering samples for free! In fact, we paid far *MORE* for each unit than what we hope to pay for the production units! And yet we're not getting the support we believe we deserve for serving as beta-test guinea-pigs - or at least that's *MY* humble opinion. So if you think you're sitting there stewing and imagining the worst, what do you think I'm doing?

I can guarantee I'm not lazing around, whistling 'Dixie'.:angry:

Derek

well i think naeb cant distanc e themselves from the unproffessionalism tha t easy. its all about how you think about treating your customer as said above here. obviously naeb wanted to put out a sales letter instead of a review. thats not what people expect as said before. people expect the truth and nothing more. naeb could have written about that a long time ago to stand behind their own effort. if they did. but its better to realize a bit late it works this way than not to realize it at all. looking forward to the review but would appreciate you 'stick your hand in your own buzem' as well as a local saying goes. not just for speaking frustrations, but also for being a part of their existence. and for your customers it would be best as well by the way if you display some form of affection and/or care for your supplier regardless how low your expectations are.

Hello,

Give it a break! Bookeen has known for some time that any review we posted would be scrupulously fair. But we have felt for some time that it would not be fair to Bookeen to make this review on what was *clearly* early beta-phase firmware. So we chose to hold off. If you don't like it, tough, but don't go telling the world we wanted to do nothing but write a Bookeen-favorable 'sales letter' when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

And I don't have a clue how to read the local saying 'stick your hand in your own buzem' (bosom (sp?)). As for the rest of your post, are you urging us to be loyal to Bookeen even to the point of staying on a sinking ship(that appears to be the message you're sending) or that we should 'rat out' the current problems in order to appease the madding crowd surging around us demanding answers? Either version is inappropriate. For one thing, we're *NOT* part of Bookeen, so our loyalty has to remain with those who we hope will become our customers. For another, despite *real* problems with overall functionality of the firmware version we have, the Bookeen Cybook Gen3 - if they put in all the features they are claiming - will be a serious contender on the eInk market. Should we *not* acknowledge this and just cast aspersions wildly? How would that serve those who want a decent eInk reader which has Mobipocket support? And there are those, you know.

Yes, I'm getting frustrated. Yes, I have *much* I can't say because I signed an NDA. Yes, I'm caught between the proverbial 'rock and hard place' and your demands are not helping resolve the issues I face.

Back OFF!!!

Derek

Delphi-
I hope you can try not to let us madding crowds get to you. I'm sure you're feeling a lot of pressure right now but there are plenty of us (I suspect most Mobilereaders) who understand that you're in a difficult spot and that you and the rest of NAEB have undertaken a new and risky endeavor for the benefit of this community. I'm not surprised that you've hit some of the bumps that are common in the hardware industry. It's a new process for you guys and you're not going into it with a lot of financial muscle behind you. I for one am still interested to see how this product turns out and while I eagerly await your review I certainly don't want to make you feel pressured to give us answers you can't give. I don't want Bookeen to send you code when it's not ready, either. I hope they get it out soon for all of your sakes but I also know how easy it is to point fingers and pass judgment on what people should do. It's a different matter when you're the one trying to actually produce and have to deal with all the crunchy details.

I also hope people will keep trying to be civil and bear in mind that they're talking to actual human beings here.

Derek, the problem we have here is that people want a new reader that uses the Vizplex screen. We have the Sony PRS505 now out and shipping. And thw Cybook Gen3 not out and not shipping. It's hard to decide to wait or not to wait especially sice what they see from Bookeen is not good at the moment. They seen Bookeen not getting you the latest firmware and they also see delay after delay and it's not easy when you are dealing with $300-$350 and want to make a purchase like now. I know this is not your fault and you are trying to do what you can. But the NDA may be part of the problem. If people would be able to know what is in store, they may be willing to wait and see what happens if it's not happening too late. Bookeen needs to let more info out to the public or the public may turn to Sony. I hate to say this, but unless Bookeen is more forth coming, they may be in trouble.

And lets not forget the Amazon launch. If Amazon has a strong showing and is using .mobi that can be really good for the Cybook if the quality/feature/price balance stacks up favorably to the Kindle. However, if the impression is that the quality and support aren't there or if it's not going to available pretty soon people might stop considering Cybook in the equation. Then it becomes a Sony + Connect vs. Kindle + Amazon decision for most folks.

I'm one of those people who has been chomping at the bit for my first reader. My smartphone doesn't cut it. I want to pull the trigger on this soon. I know I don't NEED to but I think you're alluding to a pretty strong momentum that a lot of us are feeling right now pulling us along. I could wait for a few months. I could wait for the new HanLins. I could wait a long time. But I've got an itchy trigger finger right now.

Alisa, you are right about the Kindle. I totally left it out of my post.

As far as the Hanlin V3 goes, I really don't see it in the running. It uses WOL format and has no real support in terms of getting content onto it.

I'd need to see more movement on the HanLin to be interested. I like the touchscreen thing but I'd need more formats and better performance to be serious about them.

Derek, the problem we have here is that people want a new reader that uses the Vizplex screen. We have the Sony PRS505 now out and shipping. And thw Cybook Gen3 not out and not shipping. It's hard to decide to wait or not to wait especially sice what they see from Bookeen is not good at the moment. They seen Bookeen not getting you the latest firmware and they also see delay after delay and it's not easy when you are dealing with $300-$350 and want to make a purchase like now. I know this is not your fault and you are trying to do what you can. But the NDA may be part of the problem. If people would be able to know what is in store, they may be willing to wait and see what happens if it's not happening too late. Bookeen needs to let more info out to the public or the public may turn to Sony. I hate to say this, but unless Bookeen is more forth coming, they may be in trouble.


You're preaching to the choir here, Brother Wolf, preaching to the choir. The fact remains that if I could not expect to see improvements that are supposed to be in the works, if all I could expect were the firmware *as it exists on my unit*, I'd be giving a thumbs-down. But I *do* know that sometime - and I don't know how soon - these firmware improvements will be made. So do I keep holding out for production-release firmware, do I shuck it all and say "I'm outta here" or do I give some decent marks and some bad ones and hope that a 'preliminary' review doesn't drive customers away? Or am I being too harsh because of my level of frustration? Should I take that into account? Should everyone here on MR? These questions and thoughts have me sleepless and, I will admit, indecisive at the moment.

As I have said, there's a lot I'm not at liberty to share, and more that I don't want to share because I believe (or hope, as some may say) the situation may change quite soon.

What I don't need is so much second-guessing about my motives when the second-guessers are *NOT* aware of all that's going on.

Derek

I'd need to see more movement on the HanLin to be interested. I like the touchscreen thing but I'd need more formats and better performance to be serious about them.


Alisa,

It depends. Isn't the Hanlin supposed to be able to handle FBReader (FB2) ebooks? But, of course, being able to handle FB2 doesn't really give access to the slough of ebooks in Mobi, eReader or secure PDF format...

Derek

Alisa, you are right about the Kindle. I totally left it out of my post.

As far as the Hanlin V3 goes, I really don't see it in the running. It uses WOL format and has no real support in terms of getting content onto it.

What I'm really afraid of is Amazon deciding - after all it owns Mobipocket - to shelve any deals with other manufacturers to include Mobi support in their eInk units. I mean, that would pretty much force customers to buy the Kindle if they want Mobi support, right?

Derek

To answer the points about HanLin: I have to admit that the support of .mobi and the future viability of .mobi as a format is a huge factor in my optimism for the any of the upcoming readers and a source of my hesitance to get involved with the Sony readers. My enthusiasm for the HanLin products hinges on their their open development and potential for adding file formats (.mobi being very high on that list).

If I were Amazon I would be reticent to lock down their format from other hardware. Other devices reading .mobi expands the market. Most people are going to need convincing to pay money for a reading device beyond their computer or smartphone. I doubt selling their reader hardware is going to be a big profit generator in itself. Likely it will be priced near cost to get people buying books. That cost will still seem high to the consumer. Trying to cut off other readers at this point would be an astoundingly boneheaded move in my opinion. Doesn't mean they won't do it, of course. I'd just be rather surprised.

I'm not going to get in a pissing match about this. I did offer to help and did state my experience in August or September of 2006. I was told the board had been picked and they had everything they needed. As for "Family Business" you might want to take a look at this post (http://naebllc.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=53). I assumed at the time that since it had been posted in the NAEB forum that the information was accurate.

I'm not going to get in a pissing match about this. I did offer to help and did state my experience in August or September of 2006. I was told the board had been picked and they had everything they needed. As for "Family Business" you might want to take a look at this post (http://naebllc.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=53). I assumed at the time that since it had been posted in the NAEB forum that the information was accurate.

I wasn't aware. And even then, we probably wouldn't have wanted to go the VC route - but I would not have agreed to the 'Family Business' view.

To answer the points about HanLin: I have to admit that the support of .mobi and the future viability of .mobi as a format is a huge factor in my optimism for the any of the upcoming readers and a source of my hesitance to get involved with the Sony readers. My enthusiasm for the HanLin products hinges on their their open development and potential for adding file formats (.mobi being very high on that list).

If I were Amazon I would be reticent to lock down their format from other hardware. Other devices reading .mobi expands the market. Most people are going to need convincing to pay money for a reading device beyond their computer or smartphone. I doubt selling their reader hardware is going to be a big profit generator in itself. Likely it will be priced near cost to get people buying books. That cost will still seem high to the consumer. Trying to cut off other readers at this point would be an astoundingly boneheaded move in my opinion. Doesn't mean they won't do it, of course. I'd just be rather surprised.

Alisa,

We'd like to think so, wouldn't we... But since being purchased by Amazon, I haven't really *seen* much of a push to *add* new platforms to Mobi... (I'm not talking software development - I'm talking marketing and legal.)

I note several companies have stated for months they're enquiring, but none have made any definitive announcement of completed negotiations. I note this lack of rumors/news seems to have come about just about the time of Amazon's decision to leak it's plans for the Kindle. Hmmm...

But then, maybe I'm just a conspiracy nut. :)

Derek

Alisa,

We'd like to think so, wouldn't we... But since being purchased by Amazon, I haven't really *seen* much of a push to *add* new platforms to Mobi... (I'm not talking software development - I'm talking marketing and legal.)

I note several companies have stated for months they're enquiring, but none have made any definitive announcement of completed negotiations. I note this lack of rumors/news seems to have come about just about the time of Amazon's decision to leak it's plans for the Kindle. Hmmm...

But then, maybe I'm just a conspiracy nut. :)

Derek

Mobi support for the iLiad has been added in the last few months. The fact that that's been done, and that the iLiad Mobi reader is a portable Java one does give me hope for new platform support in the future.

It took over a year for the Iliad Mobipocket reader to appear after it was first discussed in their (mobipocket's) forums, so I guess it#s a lengthy procedure in other cases as well.

I really hope the Kindle is going to use mobipocket forumat at all, so far we don't have any real proof of that do we?

I really hope the Kindle is going to use mobipocket forumat at all, so far we don't have any real proof of that do we?

I don't believe we do, no, but why would Amazon buy MobiPocket and then not use it for their own bookreader? That would seem to be a rather decision to take. I'm reasonably confident that the Kindle will support MobiPocket.