I've been tracking the progress of E-Readers for a number of years. I have read books on one of the original B&W Handspring Treos, an original Palm Pilot 5000, notebooks, desktops, and most recently, a Cingular 8525. The one thing these all had in common... Mind-numbing, skull-cracking, eye-ripping STRAIN! I crave the portability and capacity of an electronic reader, but inevitably, I relaps to just reading paper books.

Such is it that I have been following e-ink with great hope, and limitless expectation. I've been lurking in the forums, reading the gadget blogs, and doing the research. Here's what I have decided are my deal breakers:

1) Lack of word search. One of the benifits of such a device would be the ability to tote around about 80 pounds worth of reference material, and that just isn't usefull unless I have word search capability. Never mind that most of the references I refere to are in PDF format. I can work around that. But it does raise an interesting question: Will any of these readers output from their USB ports to a printer?

2) Lack of Vizplex. Not generally being an early adapter, and being prone to researching the crap out of any purchase greater than $200, I have concluded that the latest standard in e-ink screen will negate one of my earlier concerns: Screen refresh/flip speed. I think, considering my experience with the current model Sony, that the new screens will give it just enough kick to make it worthshile.

So, it comes to the Bookeen and the NUUT. Even with the new screen, the Sony is a NOGO 'cause of the lack of word search. I hope the NUUT comes to the U.S. soon. If not, the 'Bookeen' looks pretty 'keen'. Perhaps I will hide and watch a few months more :unafraid:

Why is it that word search is so important? When was the last time anyone was able read a paper book and have the ability to word search?

Word search enhances the utility of such things as Wikipedia and dictionaries. If you want to carry reference material it is very useful. I used to make my own index inside the back cover of books I found particularly useful or insightful.

Search is a "nice to have" feature.

Since my primary point of interest is in reading, the absence of a word search isn't really a concern to me at all.

At the same time, I can understand the interest from another perspective: if I were looking for an "information appliance" for reference material usage, then the word search would be extremely important to me. :yes:

The devices that are out presently simply aren't aimed at that purpose, though. I think there will be such devices eventually, it's just a matter of how eventually. :tired:

For the moment, I'd suggest that anyone looking for a device for that purpose not get one of these devices, they'll just be disappointed, and that's no good for anyone. :shrug:

Welcome to MobileRead JEMelby. It is not often I have come across anyone with a Coleco ADAM (With high-speed digital tape drive!) I haven't seen one in over 20 years.

I agree with NatCh, for the purposes you listed none of the current or announced e-ink devices will serve your purposes.

1. Most of the devices are only USB slaves so they cannot access a printer (another slave device) at all. Printing is also not allowed for most of the DRMed books available. It does not make sense to add a printing capability. Printing to any printer is also a big chunk of software which may not fit the cramped memory of the device.
2. Vizplex should come soon.

Why is it that word search is so important? When was the last time anyone was able read a paper book and have the ability to word search?
Perhaps, for some, the point is not to replace paper books, but to improve upon them. In any case, I tend to assume that when people state their preferences this strongly, they have good reason for them.

A reasonable assumption. However, I like to explore the reasons too. It allows me the opportunity to understand them ... even if I find the reasons uncompelling, they can be ... educational. :grin:

I have concluded that the latest standard in e-ink screen will negate one of my earlier concerns: Screen refresh/flip speed. I think, considering my experience with the current model Sony, that the new screens will give it just enough kick to make it worthshile.


I'm very surprised to hear that this is a "concern" for you - I honestly cannot recall coming across ANYBODY who regards the screen refresh speed of the Sony Reader as a problem. It's certainly no slower than turning the page of a paperback book, for example. You say "considering my experience with the current model Sony" - may I ask what that experience actually is? Have you just looked at one in a store, or read a book on one "for real"? I'm sure you'll find that if you use one "for real" it's not something that you'll even notice.

I doubt that it is practical, given the slow refresh nature of Eink, to have any sort of input mechanism other than button controls. Touchscreens and onscreen keyboards require a screen refresh mechanism that is not apparent to the user. This makes text input, and thus reference libraries, impractical.

Will the next generation of Eink resolve this issue?

I doubt that it is practical, given the slow refresh nature of Eink, to have any sort of input mechanism other than button controls. Touchscreens and onscreen keyboards require a screen refresh mechanism that is not apparent to the user.

The iRex Iliad has a touch screen and stylus input, so it seems that it can be done. Judging from the experiences on the Iliad forum, however, "digital ink" input requires lots and LOTS of screen refreshes which reduces the time between charges to only a few hours.

I think personally that you are right - for a fiction book reader (which is what the Sony Reader is), hardware buttons work a lot better than a touch screen. They don't require screen refreshes to operate and there's also the benefit that the lack of a touch screen makes the device a lot physically "tougher".

So, it comes to the Bookeen and the NUUT. Even with the new screen, the Sony is a NOGO 'cause of the lack of word search.
What makes you think that Bookeen will have word search -- I haven't seen any mentioning of that. Bookeen will have even less buttons than Sony, so the word search implementation would be much harder.

What makes you think that Bookeen will have word search -- I haven't seen any mentioning of that. Bookeen will have even less buttons than Sony, so the word search implementation would be much harder.
Good point. Im fact, I don't see any reader at the moment that uses E-Ink that will word search. Now I think the folks over at the iLiad camp could probably cobble something together to allow searching non-DRM books. But right out of the box, not that we know of.

Does "word search" mean searching in the current e-book only? If, so I am surprised that it isn't supported in all e-book readers since they must have a (more or less) plain text representation of the document. Is the problem text entry? It is available in Adobe Reader for PDFs, although some older academic papers are just images of the journal pages and so are unsearchable, and in FBReader. I assume FBReader will word search on the iLiad, as it does on other devices.

Is the problem text entry?

Yes, precisely. The Sony Reader, for example, has no keyboard. It's controlled by menus which have a maximum of 10 entries on them, in which one selects an entry by pressing a hardware button labelled "1" to "10".

I'm very surprised to hear that this is a "concern" for you - I honestly cannot recall coming across ANYBODY who regards the screen refresh speed of the Sony Reader as a problem. It's certainly no slower than turning the page of a paperback book, for example. You say "considering my experience with the current model Sony" - may I ask what that experience actually is? Have you just looked at one in a store, or read a book on one "for real"? I'm sure you'll find that if you use one "for real" it's not something that you'll even notice.
I've held the current model Sony, and "pretended" to read a book. This amounted to reading some of a page, then flipping to the next. Current devices are perfectly suited for this type activity. The page flip speed only becomes an issue when I am scanning a reference document for a particular piece of information. The liniar nature of books which tell a story translate well to these devices. The random access nature of reference materiel make page flip speed a bigger issue.
I love to read paper-backs. I am sure that devices like the Sony are very good at this. This alone make it a worthwhile purchase. Unfortunately, my reality is such that I want/need a device that is also suited to reference use.

Sadly, the closest you're likely to get at the moment is a Tablet PC, and they have their own set of drawbacks. :tired:

In a few years, I expect it'll be a different story, but now .... :dunno:

Good dialogue. Thanks to all. I think this thread has served its purpose. Key take-aways:

1) Current and near-future e-readers in this class are not well suited as mobile reference libraries.
2) Get an e-reader for recreational reading
3) Word search, while useful for reference use (see 1 above) is just not a big deal when reading the latest Michael Criton novel (agreed). I hadn't considered the "input" and "proccessing" requirements neccessary for this functionality. Living in a world of PCs replete with "word search" and "spell checkers", it just seemed to be a no-brainer.
4) Page flipping, when reading a liniear document, doesn't need to be fast.

Given infinite resouces, I am sure a book reader that can do it all is possible. But without an adequate pool of consumers to buy them, who would be foolish enough to make them. I will carefully watch the near-future crop of readers and likely select one just for recreational reading. :unafraid:

Well, whatever you do, JEMelby, make sure you hang around! :yes:

I think there is an excellent market for the device you're describing (it's come up before around here, on occasion) -- Academia, the legal profession, most office environments, and anyone else who deals with large quantities of ... stuff that they have to sift through and interact with. I'd like to have one myself, I just wouldn't likely use it for reading -- it would pretty much have to have an A4/letter-sized display, and that'd be too cumbersome for leisure reading in my ... er, book. :shrug:

I think there is an excellent market for the device you're describing (it's come up before around here, on occasion) -- Academia, the legal profession, most office environments, and anyone else who deals with large quantities of ... stuff that they have to sift through and interact with. I'd like to have one myself, I just wouldn't likely use it for reading -- it would pretty much have to have an A4/letter-sized display, and that'd be too cumbersome for leisure reading in my ... er, book. :shrug:

I agree with you entirely. An A4 device with good search and "annotation" facilities would be superb for many applications - but it is a completely different device to something like the Sony Reader or (probably) the CyBook, both of which are replacements for the paperback book rather than the reference library.

What would work well in most cases is a reader with a good A4 screen, at least 16 shades of gray, a keyboard on screen to input text for searching books and stuff and the ability to read a number of different formats and ergonomic controls unlike what we have and look to have soon.

And it'd probably need a faster processor to run it all, too. :yes:

... and remember that the battery life will, at least partially, be inversely proportional to the number of pixels on the screen. Double the number of pixels, halve the number of page turns per charge.

An A4 screen (297x210mm) would, at the same pixel density, have 5.8x the number of pixels that the Reader's 120x90mm screen has, so the battery life would be almost 6x shorter.

Still want one? :grin:

... and remember that the battery life will, at least partially, be inversely proportional to the number of pixels on the screen. Double the number of pixels, halve the number of page turns per charge.

An A4 screen (297x210mm) would, at the same pixel density, have 5.8x the number of pixels that the Reader's 120x90mm screen has, so the battery life would be almost 6x shorter.

Still want one? :grin:
If it had a replaceable battery then sure. We could carry around spare batteries to keep it alive.

Well a bigger screen would mean more space for a bigger battery.

IThe page flip speed only becomes an issue when I am scanning a reference document for a particular piece of information. The liniar nature of books which tell a story translate well to these devices. The random access nature of reference materiel make page flip speed a bigger issue. FBReader reads CHM, which is often used for technical manuals. It handles nested TOC levels in CHM files, but they probably are a pain to use on the iLiad. In fact, the time required to switch between page view and TOC view might get frustrating for routine use on the iLiad. Overall, the iLiad is probably closest to what you are looking for. If only it was cheaper, with a longer battery life, and a bigger screen.

The Amazon Kindle (if it is ever released) may come with a keyboard, and if so I would expect it to have a search capability.

Again the Kindle. It's name is always popping up and no one dares say anything more. I bet a shot of Karma that some people around here know more than they're entitled to reveal! :grin:

Does anyone have fresh news about it ?


Forgot to add: The Asus EEE (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11346&page=3&highlight=Asus) albeit not having eink will do much of what you'd like JMElby

Well a bigger screen would mean more space for a bigger battery.
That is a very good observation. I didn't think of that. But it would make it heavier. But that's ok. It probably still won't be as heavy as the average hardcover book.

Again the Kindle. It's name is always popping up and no one dares say anything more. I bet a shot of Karma that some people around here know more than they're entitled to reveal! :grin:

Does anyone have fresh news about it ?


Forgot to add: The Asus EEE (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11346&page=3&highlight=Asus) albeit not having eink will do much of what you'd like JMElby
Except the Asus won't have a good enough battery life to be used like we do our readers now.

That is a very good observation. I didn't think of that. But it would make it heavier. But that's ok. It probably still won't be as heavy as the average hardcover book.It'd be way lighter than the average tablet or laptop -- that's a big win right there.

"Word search" is a very useful feature of a book reader, the closest analogue to flipping pages in a print book.

I am not of the opinion that e-books have to lavishly follow print (after all I do 70% of my e-reading on a gold letters/black background setup), so arguments like "when can you do with print books that?" are irrelevant to me.

E-books have their strengths and weaknesses, and playing upon the former is a very important factor to speed up their way into mainstream use.

But what good is lighter with a dead battery?

The page flip speed only becomes an issue when I am scanning a reference document for a particular piece of information. The liniar nature of books which tell a story translate well to these devices. The random access nature of reference materiel make page flip speed a bigger issue.
You are absolutely right, and this also becomes an issue when trying to find something in your own notes on the iLiad. We recognize what's on a page much faster than we can actually read it.

In the iLiad user's community, we're looking at thumbnail views to help with identifying and quickly navigating to a particular page, but that will only work if you've got some way to recognize the page, e.g. it's a chapter head, has a diagram, or you've seen it before and sort of recognize the shape of this text (which is quite common). It still won't provide the sort of page-flip interface I think most of us use when trying to quickly find information in a reference text. Even LCD screens can have trouble with that sort of refresh rate (well, maybe it's the screen drawing speed, not the LCD refresh rate, but you know what I mean).

The problem s that most E-Ink based readers don't have any way to input words to search for. So the software doesn't have that built into it. The Sony reader has no keyboard and the Cybook doesn't look to have one either (as examples)

Sony Reader got ten buttons right? That's enought for a cellphone styled text input. Combine with T9 dictionary and some clever word indexing of the loaded book and you got a rather effective and familiar mean of inputting text.

And my personal favorite, if you got too few buttons you could always use morse code (http://www.oreillynet.com/etel/blog/2005/06/back_to_the_future_morse_code.html). I sure hope the Cybook is open enough for me to implement this.

The problem s that most E-Ink based readers don't have any way to input words to search for. So the software doesn't have that built into it. The Sony reader has no keyboard and the Cybook doesn't look to have one either (as examples)

All too true, and one of the reasons I held off on buying one of the new readers, but it does not have to eliminate searches entirely. As I really wanted a built-in light, I purchased the eBookwise, and one of the surprise features is the ability to tap a word, and get search options for that word, including Next, Previous and a dictionary search (if you have installed the free dictionary).

Of course, without a touch screen, and with the slow refresh, even highlighting a word on the Sony could be a painful process, but it should be quite easy on the Irex.

Jack

Sony Reader got ten buttons right? That's enought for a cellphone styled text input. Combine with T9 dictionary and some clever word indexing of the loaded book and you got a rather effective and familiar mean of inputting text. Some Cable TV systems do search using just the arrow keys and enter. I think part of the problem is the e-Ink refresh rate. This isn't usually a big deal for full page reading, but it could be for interactive text entry. It can probably be worked around, but the technology is new enough that we don't have a very large baseline of "expected" capabilities (LCD-based devices are expected to come with text entry, for example, and it would create negative comment if this were missing).

Vizplex is supposed to respond faster, it might be that we'll see them get more ... adventurous once they have the faster refresh rate. :shrug:

I've had quite a few LCD-type reading devices now, and I have had no issue with my battery running out. Sure, it takes a little more management to charge it up more often, but its no big chore. They charge up so quickly that its never really been an issue. To me, I absolutely need a backlight for my reading - as you have seen from my other posts. I've seen the e-ink technology and it is very nice but its just not for me.

The best reading device as far as LCDs go that I've owned so far (for battery life) was my ebookwise-1150. That thing lasts for so long without a recharge, its really quite amazing. The Nokia 770 has a better looking screen but is much harder to read in broad daylight for some reason. The screen is also smaller. The 770 seems to need a charge far more often. My newest addition to my collection is a Web DT 375 Tablet PC. It has an 8.4" screen and I just love the thing. The screen is very nice, not too bright, and still readable in daylight. The battery life, suprisingly, is better than my Nokia 770 (maybe I got a lemon?). I do have the external battery for it. Plus, since it has Windows for an OS, I can transfer my files back and forth from my desktop using wireless without even connecting a cord. So for almost the same price as an ebookwise-1150, I really have tons of functionality on this thing.

I've had quite a few LCD-type reading devices now, and I have had no issue with my battery running out. Sure, it takes a little more management to charge it up more often, but its no big chore. They charge up so quickly that its never really been an issue. To me, I absolutely need a backlight for my reading - as you have seen from my other posts. I've seen the e-ink technology and it is very nice but its just not for me.

The best reading device as far as LCDs go that I've owned so far (for battery life) was my ebookwise-1150. That thing lasts for so long without a recharge, its really quite amazing. The Nokia 770 has a better looking screen but is much harder to read in broad daylight for some reason. The screen is also smaller. The 770 seems to need a charge far more often. My newest addition to my collection is a Web DT 375 Tablet PC. It has an 8.4" screen and I just love the thing. The screen is very nice, not too bright, and still readable in daylight. The battery life, suprisingly, is better than my Nokia 770 (maybe I got a lemon?). I do have the external battery for it. Plus, since it has Windows for an OS, I can transfer my files back and forth from my desktop using wireless without even connecting a cord. So for almost the same price as an ebookwise-1150, I really have tons of functionality on this thing.

well, everyone has their own reasons and needs. If a backlit tablet pc works better for you, no one would talk you out of it.

Well said, athlonkmf -- if you've got something that works for you, excellent, stay with it until it stops working, or something that genuinely works better comes along. :yes:

Search is a critical feature. Even in fiction it would come in handy. When I read a 19th century novel, there are details about characters that become relevant a couple of hundred pages later. Being able to instantly find all the places where that character is mentioned would let me get more out of the book faster. I really like the idea of being able to save 20 or so searches per book. This would be a big benefit to college students and would help them write papers.

For nonfiction books, especially in the humanities and social sciences it would be of even greater utility.

Search is a critical feature. Even in fiction it would come in handy. When I read a 19th century novel, there are details about characters that become relevant a couple of hundred pages later. Being able to instantly find all the places where that character is mentioned would let me get more out of the book faster. I really like the idea of being able to save 20 or so searches per book.

The issue is data input. How would you input a text string on the Sony Reader?

This would be a big benefit to college students and would help them write papers.

Do college students write papers these days? I thought they just downloaded them from the internet.

Search is a critical feature.

I have to disagree. Search is not "critical". I would place it in the "nice, but not necessary" category.

HarryT alluded to the issue: how do you enter the search criteria? To add such a feature to eBook readers make them more expensive, and provide a feature that is not in pBooks today.

Search is a critical feature. Even in fiction it would come in handy.

For nonfiction books, especially in the humanities and social sciences it would be of even greater utility.You could head back to your PC to do your searches -- that's probably where you're writing the paper anyway .... :wink2:

OK. OK. "Critical" is an overstatement, but it would be a powerful addition that would markedly increase the device's desirability to some of us. I do understand that inputting the text is a problem and that more processor power may be required as well. Perhaps a tablet would be a better fit for those of us who want this feature, but their low battery life limits their use as a reader.

It's more a matter of the current model of the Reader not being aimed at 'serious' readers, in the sense of researchers or those studying a text. It's intended as a device for just reading books, leisure reading, if you will, which it does rather well, in my opinion. :shrug:

I agree that there is a definite need for a more serious, work-oriented device. Something with an A4 display, pen input, and a more powerful application set that allowed things like annotation and searching (among others) would be a huge boon to any number of professional pursuits: academic (students and teachers), legal, medical, research, news media, and office environments of all sorts would be able to make great use of such a device.

However, the Sony Reader (this model, anyway) isn't that device, wasn't ever meant to be that device, and never will be that device -- it would require too different a hardware set to get there. :shrug:

But, it's not the only device out there, and I somehow doubt it'll be the last one Sony makes, for that matter, however soon or not they get around to doing so. :nice:

The iLiad could be that device, despite the A5 instead of A4 screen, if iRex would decide there's a market for such a device and support the functionality better.

OK. OK. "Critical" is an overstatement, but it would be a powerful addition that would markedly increase the device's desirability to some of us. I do understand that inputting the text is a problem and that more processor power may be required as well. Perhaps a tablet would be a better fit for those of us who want this feature, but their low battery life limits their use as a reader.

There are "compromise" devices available, midway between general-purpose computers and dedicated eBook Readers, such as the iRex Iliad, which does have text input facilities Again, though, battery life is also a compromise - I understand that one can, with care, get around 10h battery life from an Iliad compared with the Sony Reader's typical 3 week battery life.

I don't necessarily agree that faster processors are required. The Reader can "paginate" even the longest book in under a minute; it should certainly have the "muscle" to do text searches - the basic problem is how to get the text in there!

The issue is data input. How would you input a text string on the Sony Reader?


Could the ten numbered buttons be programmed to double as an alphabet in the same way a phone does? That is if input is supported of course.

I don't necessarily agree that faster processors are required. The Reader can "paginate" even the longest book in under a minute; it should certainly have the "muscle" to do text searches - the basic problem is how to get the text in there!

not really. when paginating 6000 pages of a mangabook, sizing at 300MB, it takes the reader 5 minutes or more...

Although I'm not sure if it's the time needed to load the book in memory or really formatting it that takes that much time.

Paginating even a 1500 page book with embedded fonts of about 2MB can take 10 mins, so its certainly not memory load speed.

Actually I guess that's the one area where the librie - because of its keyboard - has an advantage over the ereader: when you set bookmarks, you can enter any title you wish for them. It's a nice way to make somekind of references index.

Of course, there's no search capability as far as I know (stupid sony), converting to the only fileformat the librie understand is a pain in the rear and there won't be any further development for it, neither from (stupid) sony nor from third parties because of lack of specs (moronic sony!!!)

OK. OK. "Critical" is an overstatement, but it would be a powerful addition that would markedly increase the device's desirability to some of us.

I agree, Zach. It is not critical, but it would be very, very nice to have. I had the Rocket E-book and the Treo 650 with Palm Reader before I had the Sony Reader and, even for contemporary fiction, it is great to be able to check back on this or that character or event, especially in a mystery. I would say that, when I have the capability, I use it about 3 or 4 times every time I read a book.

One kind of work around in the Sony Reader is the history. It doesn't go back that far, but you can sometimes get back to an earlier place and find something.

Betty

One kind of work around in the Sony Reader is the history. It doesn't go back that far, but you can sometimes get back to an earlier place and find something.


Or you can bookmark something that you want to return to, and come back to it later. Of course that only works if you know in advance that you'll want to come back to it :grin:.

I'd like to point out that, with the most recent operating system (released in the last four days or so), iRex and Mobipocket have now made dictionary support available on the iLiad. What this means is that when I'm reading a Mobipocket book, I can look up any word I encounter with two screen taps.

The most common thing by far I want to search for while reading a book is a word's definition. The time saved in having to schlep over to my kitchen to grab the 15 lb dictionary is amazing. Even if you're used to reading with a large dictionary at your side, it's impossible that you'd be able to look up a definition more quickly the old school way. Oh, and a really nice benefit: when you buy a Mobipocket dictionary, you get to load it on multiple devices. Mine's on my Palm as well as my iLiad (and of course, also on the PC). I can look up a word on any of them faster than I could have grabbed the dictionary and flipped to the right page.

iRex and Mobipocket have now made dictionary support available on the iLiad. Does it also do word search within the current e-book? The Windows version of MobiPocket Reader has both.

I agree, though, that for casual reading dictionary lookup is the most important word operation. It is also a money maker, I'm sure, for MobiPocket. I am less adverse to paying for a DRM-ridden dictionary than for other publications. The DRM prevents it working on all current and (more importantly) future devices, but I expect to buy a new dictionary every few years anyway.

Does it also do word search within the current e-book? The Windows version of MobiPocket Reader has both.


I don't believe so, wallcraft. Although I'm just getting into this Mobipocket stuff, it appears to me that a book has to be a "dictionary" in order to allow searches in the first place. With my Palm, there are two ways to do this: you can either do a straightforward lookup, or you can search for occurrences of a word. This is most easily seen with, for example an English-to-French dictionary, where the normal (and fastest) mode is to enter a word in English. I can instead search on a particular French word, but it takes quite a bit longer (a few seconds), and I get back multiple entries, some of which contain only incidental useages of the word.

At any rate, the iLiad doesn't seem to offer any of this except a straighforward lookup of a word you type in. And as I mentioned above, it also allows for the looking up of a word encountered in any other Mobipocket book.