On my old 505 I could see what page in the book I was on. However, on the K3 its got % locations and then a five digit number on the right hand side, what does it all mean? I would prefer just a page number.

thanks

Kev

Kindle does that because you can change the font size and switch between devices and the pages wouldn't be the same. Say on a Kindle with medium font you can view 300 words on a page. If you change to the large font, now you only see 100 words on a page. A book that started with 275 pages, now has 825. And then when I sync to my Android phone, I can only see 60 words on a page.
Page number wouldn't mean anything in this case. I would rather see % complete although many people think otherwise.
Amazon came up with the numbering system so you could find the same page. I'm not sure where they come up with the total number (maybe based on the number of words or lines or whatever), but each page is worth a certain number of 'places'. Read this guy's explanation of it:

http://www.edukindle.com/2008/08/page-number-versus-position-on-kindle/

Here we go again...

Here we go again...


And for good reason

And for good reason

There aren't already enough threads about this? We need another one? What's the good reason? Search doesn't work?

I can't think of any good reason to have another thread about this.

It's called adapt. Pages on an ereader is just not practical.

Kindle does that because you can change the font size and switch between devices and the pages wouldn't be the same. Say on a Kindle with medium font you can view 300 words on a page. If you change to the large font, now you only see 100 words on a page. A book that started with 275 pages, now has 825. And then when I sync to my Android phone, I can only see 60 words on a page.
Page number wouldn't mean anything in this case. I would rather see % complete although many people think otherwise.
Amazon came up with the numbering system so you could find the same page. I'm not sure where they come up with the total number (maybe based on the number of words or lines or whatever), but each page is worth a certain number of 'places'. Read this guy's explanation of it:

http://www.edukindle.com/2008/08/page-number-versus-position-on-kindle/

Thanks for your constructive answer.

Kev

On my old 505 I could see what page in the book I was on. However, on the K3 its got % locations and then a five digit number on the right hand side, what does it all mean? I would prefer just a page number.

thanks

Kev

If you really want page numbers, then a Kindle is not for you. Get a 650 instead., It has page number and not locations.

Kindle does that because you can change the font size and switch between devices and the pages wouldn't be the same. Say on a Kindle with medium font you can view 300 words on a page. If you change to the large font, now you only see 100 words on a page. A book that started with 275 pages, now has 825. And then when I sync to my Android phone, I can only see 60 words on a page.
Page number wouldn't mean anything in this case. I would rather see % complete although many people think otherwise.
Amazon came up with the numbering system so you could find the same page. I'm not sure where they come up with the total number (maybe based on the number of words or lines or whatever), but each page is worth a certain number of 'places'. Read this guy's explanation of it:

http://www.edukindle.com/2008/08/page-number-versus-position-on-kindle/

You can change the font size using ADE and you still get page numbers. So don't blame it on being able to change the font size. Blame it on a bug in Mobipocket Reader that's been there for as long as the format has existed.

Here we go again...

We get people saying they really want this or they need that. The problem is that the features that a lot of people say they want or need exist in readers other then the K3. So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.

I don't think such a widespread customer complaint should be so easily dismissed with the common Kindler response of "you just need to adapt."

It isn't as if Kindle's locations are the future for everyone, unless you believe all other e-readers and formats have no future.

Locations can't be standardized, because they won't match across formats, or even between Amazon editions, and the algorithm is flawed out of the gate for the intended purposes, because it counts code as well as what the readers sees, and what the reader sees is what matters.

In terms of usability, I very rarely see complaints about other e-reader's paging systems, and those have to do with a certain type of Sony that put page numbers in the margin.

On the other hand, complaints about Kindle's locations are so common, we're exhausted with them. ;)

A survey taken at an e-book consortium showed that maintaining page numbers was #6 of 36 feature requests for e-readers to have.

So it doesn't take a decade as a usability guru to recognize that it isn't just a matter of people on the fringe who just won't "adapt."

All that said, the real question -- and answer - is how can we meet customer's needs in a way that that can be standardized and grow with more and widespread use and more sophisticated formatting?

Not everyone has the same needs:

Some would be happy enough with a screen count that is recalculated according to font size, etc.
e.g., Page 350/735, with 1 page = 1 screen.

Others would be happy if the pages were drawn and delimited according to a standard ebook "page" size.
Page 350.3/735, with 1 page often = to more than one screen.

Others need delimited pages for citations their professors can check without access to the .azw file. I have read that at least one group requires that they match an accessible paper version for academic purposes.

Then there is the section: paragraph option, which would be most reliable, but more of a hurdle to implement.


I don't know what the ultimate solution will be. I think the section:paragraph option would be most reliable, but I expect some sort of paging option to come eventually.

My reason? Amazon put forth pilot programs in schools to get user feedback, and at the shareholder's meeting in May, Jeff Bezos said:

"The concept of a page number becomes more complex with font changes. But for academic purposes, you often have to be able to cite a page number. We provide a citation method, it's called location numbers, but unfortunately it's not a universal standard.

For academic purposes you need some way of translating location numbers to physical book page numbers."

- Jeff Bezos

To me, that sounds like they're looking for a solution in that direction.

But who knows. :o

You can change the font size using ADE and you still get page numbers. So don't blame it on being able to change the font size. Blame it on a bug in Mobipocket Reader that's been there for as long as the format has existed.
I thought that bug only affected its ability to reliably calculate screen counts on the fly. ?

If the pages are encoded in the file, that shouldn't be a problem.

Anyhow, it looks like Amazon is interested in finding a way. I'd guess they could fix the bug, if needed for whichever method they chose to implement.

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.
I bought a Kindle because I need the TTS, and in my decision-matrix, Locations were the only thing I liked better on the other brands.

No e-reader is perfect. Most companies add and improve features, as has Amazon, thanks in part to user-feedback, which they solicit. ;) I'm patient.

Regarding ADE, I read that their method of delimiting pages is now known and could be freely and painlessly implemented in .mobi. ?

It sounds too good to be true, but I've been out of touch and don't know. If anyone does know for sure, I'd love to hear the details. :)

We get people saying they really want this or they need that. The problem is that the features that a lot of people say they want or need exist in readers other then the K3. So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.

Just reading through this thread out of curiosity because I'm not a Kindle owner, but I'd just like to point out the fact that the majority of people new to ereaders don't even know what ADE stands for, much less what it can or can't do. Just like most advertisements for ereaders don't really give the customer information about the nuts-and-bolts of the reader - what it really can or can't do. Take my Sony, for example; I didn't know that there is no way to turn off the dictionary function or to change the font. Page numbering methods are never mentioned in the "Tech Specs" provided on the ereader's web page - or even on the ereader box itself.

Remember too, that Kindle and Sony readers don't share the same native format. So when faced with a different reading experience, we try to adjust the new reader to the settings that we are familiar with and used to. For example, I'm used to the Bookmark function on the Aluratek, where a bookmark is called a bookmark. On the Sony, you can "Bookmark" a page, but when you want to find those bookmarks, you have to look in the "Notes" section, the same place where highlighted sentences wind up. Why the change in terminology mid-stream? Who knows? :smack:

The fact that people are turning to this website with what seem to be simple and repetitive questions shouldn't be discouraged, nor should people be told to return their Kindle and get something else just because they happen to ask a question others find annoying. I'm a regular on a computer forum and I just wish that I had a dollar for every post about "what anti-virus program should I use?" - lol. But I remember when I was new to computers and new to different operating systems, and how I appreciated it when more knowledgeable people took the time to answer my - to them - obvious questions. ;)

I just got the K3. I'm sure this has been discussed and is sought of touched on where Bezos is quoted about academic needs for paging. I mentioned this page/location to a friend who is active in book clubs - she wanted to know how you could discuss a quote from a page in a book with other members if you were using a kindle while they were using a pbook? At least, with the pbook, they could give you a snatch of a phrase and you could search for it but not the other way around. Seems that while Amazon and others might justify - that's the way it is due to font selection or line spacing - that does not meet the needs or desires of some/many/ readers.

And like others, I've taken part in support forums for other devices and the same questions get asked over and over. (you cannot imagine how many people wanted to know why Blackberries did not adjust for timezone changes - irritatingly repeated and always with the response/justification that it is a planned function that worked well and was unnecessary to change - you know what - Rim/Blackberry finally came around - you can have it your way - it is now an option). Maybe with enough repetitious questions Amazon might provide an option, too. If everyone just searches and sees that's the way it is, the head count never increases with dissent.

And while there is a search function in most forums (where no page reference is available (g)), I still think it is polite to answer the question and then send the person searching.

So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

It's not that simple, as if it all could be decided on one make-or-break point. But most of us aren't single-issue voters.

On balance, the Kindle has the best combination of features, support, and overall value to make me decide in its favor. So that's what I want and what I'm getting. Yet the Kindle will remain limited in its usefulness so long as a standardized, stable reference rubric isn't in place. As a PhD candidate, I will continue to purchase a great many physical books that I might otherwise have gotten in eBook format. You cannot acceptably cite the "location" of a reference.

This can be fixed. The Kindle doesn't just have to be for novels and other casual reading.

We get people saying they really want this or they need that. The problem is that the features that a lot of people say they want or need exist in readers other then the K3. So why buy a k3 when there are other readers out there that have the features wanted or needed?

Any reader that has ADE on it has page numbers. It's just that simple. So if you want page numbers, get a reader that supports ADE. PDF reflow/zoom/margin crop exists on Sony Readers. Get one of them. Really, don't complain because you bought a Kindle that doesn't do what you want.

If a Kindle does what you want and you are happy with it, that's good. But if you bought one and it doesn't do what you want, return it and get one that does.

Not sure how your reply applies to my comment. I own a Kindle, I don't see what the big fuss is about page numbers, locations are fine with me. I've been perfectly happy with both my K2 and my K3 and they do everything that I want them to (or I've found out how to allow them to do things they weren't designed to do). Works for me.

I believe your reply was supposed to be directed to the OP, not me.

It's not that simple, as if it all could be decided on one make-or-break point. But most of us aren't single-issue voters.

On balance, the Kindle has the best combination of features, support, and overall value to make me decide in its favor. So that's what I want and what I'm getting. Yet the Kindle will remain limited in its usefulness so long as a standardized, stable reference rubric isn't in place. As a PhD candidate, I will continue to purchase a great many physical books that I might otherwise have gotten in eBook format. You cannot acceptably cite the "location" of a reference.

This can be fixed. The Kindle doesn't just have to be for novels and other casual reading.

Not sure how your reply applies to my comment. I own a Kindle, I don't see what the big fuss is about page numbers, locations are fine with me. I've been perfectly happy with both my K2 and my K3 and they do everything that I want them to (or I've found out how to allow them to do things they weren't designed to do). Works for me.

I believe your reply was supposed to be directed to the OP, not me.

Jon is one of the original Sony fanboyz. he'll jump on any oppourtunity to diss a Kindle. pay no mind

It's not that simple, as if it all could be decided on one make-or-break point. But most of us aren't single-issue voters.

On balance, the Kindle has the best combination of features, support, and overall value to make me decide in its favor. So that's what I want and what I'm getting. Yet the Kindle will remain limited in its usefulness so long as a standardized, stable reference rubric isn't in place. As a PhD candidate, I will continue to purchase a great many physical books that I might otherwise have gotten in eBook format. You cannot acceptably cite the "location" of a reference.

This can be fixed. The Kindle doesn't just have to be for novels and other casual reading.

I was a PhD student in the past, and I can see where some of those here are coming from, but things were just as bad for printed documents as they are now with ebooks. With multiple editions of books, varying content, etc you had to really make sure your references were clean and accurate (total pages, edition number, etc).

I'm not sure why someone couldn't do something similar with ebooks. It is something that will have to be adopted through MLA or other formatting groups, but I don't see how identifying a specific location, the total number of locations, and even the file format couldn't work for ebooks and references.

A lot of the problems are going to exist as long as we have multiple formats. Right now, it will be epub vs. mobi vs. pdf.... Then, even if we get a standard format or standard method for ebooks and documents that work, we'll always have the issue of eboook vs. print. That's just how its going to be. Everyone is going to have to adapt to some extent be in the companies, the authors, or the consumers who do the reading. Locations do probably need changing, but I think it is a bit optimistic to think there will be one solution that works.

You can change the font size using ADE and you still get page numbers. So don't blame it on being able to change the font size. Blame it on a bug in Mobipocket Reader that's been there for as long as the format has existed.

Imagine reading the book on my Android phone... turn the page 10 times and still be on the same page (at least my Sony's only on the same page for two page turns). I'll take the % complete any day!

People talk about being on the same page as their teacher or whatever. Is the majority of ereader users students? I would've guessed the majority to be casual readers like me.

Imagine reading the book on my Android phone... turn the page 10 times and still be on the same page (at least my Sony's only on the same page for two page turns). I'll take the % complete any day!

People talk about being on the same page as their teacher or whatever. Is the majority of ereader users students? I would've guessed the majority to be casual readers like me.
You can be on a % for far more than 10 page turns, so I don't see how that's better..?

Regarding your question about students, you're probably right that most users are casual readers right now.
But Amazon clearly sees benefit in making the Kindle appeal to more than just their current plain fiction-reading market, or they wouldn't be adding features and doing pilot studies seeking feedback in schools. (See my earlier post.)

How many people need the top 3 font sizes? Or facebook, or twitter...

Everyone has features they care more or less about, and it's awesome when people are so happy with the current models they need nothing more. But I think it's a smart of Amazon to invite and heed the more prevalent customer requests when they can, rather than just coasting and letting the competition provide features that can draw sales away.

I've even seen them change their positions pretty radically, e.g., remember when they said WiFi wasn't going to be added - not needed, etc. ;)

The only thing I don't get is why they haven't gotten rid of the screensavers so many complain about. Can't be that hard to remove or change Emily Dickenson's pic. ;)

You're right. I'm on a % much more than a few (or ten) pages. And I agree that Amazon should do what they can to stay competitive. That's just good business sense. It just tickles me about how much people complain about stupid stuff.
Reminds me one time when I got a call from my sister. She was strongly complaining about having to spend money on a new battery for her truck. I asked how old her current battery was and she said it's the battery that came with her 10 year-old truck (here in Florida we're lucky to get three or four years out of a battery).

Anyway, to make my long point longer--what was my point?

You're right. I'm on a % much more than a few (or ten) pages. And I agree that Amazon should do what they can to stay competitive. That's just good business sense. It just tickles me about how much people complain about stupid stuff.
Reminds me one time when I got a call from my sister. She was strongly complaining about having to spend money on a new battery for her truck. I asked how old her current battery was and she said it's the battery that came with her 10 year-old truck (here in Florida we're lucky to get three or four years out of a battery).

Anyway, to make my long point longer--what was my point?

Hey now, we all do or want stuff that others think are stupid. :p

Seriously, though, OT, but I'm curious - is that you in your avatar? If so, cool! Air Force, Army...? (I have all branches represented somewhere in my family, but I'm still pathetic at recognizing uniforms. :o )

I'd rather they removed Facebook and/or Twitter than the top three font sizes. The range of font sizes on the Kindle was a buying decision compared to my old Sonys which had only 3, all of which were too small.

I even turn the font up sometimes on the train on the way home when I'm a little tired but really hooked in a book (currently Scaredy Cat by Mark Billingham).

I don't care if an ebook has page numbers or not, since it doesn’t affect my reading, but in regards citing pages for academic usage: if page numbers from a printed copy were embedded in the ebook, wouldn't that run the cost up a bit? It seems like it would require hand-tweaking. Also, since there are different editions of printed books, frequently with different page counts, would there have to be multiple page numbers in the ebook file, one for each edition? Would you have to purchase a new ebook version every time a revised book was printed? In citing academic works, you already have to specify which edition you are using.

With regards to book clubs or casual reading, do you put the page numbers in for hardcover or paperback? Regular or large-print versions?

I don't have an answer, but it seems more complicated than just putting in "page numbers."

I don't care if an ebook has page numbers or not, since it doesn’t affect my reading, but in regards citing pages for academic usage: if page numbers from a printed copy were embedded in the ebook, wouldn't that run the cost up a bit? It seems like it would require hand-tweaking. Also, since there are different editions of printed books, frequently with different page counts, would there have to be multiple page numbers in the ebook file, one for each edition? Would you have to purchase a new ebook version every time a revised book was printed? In citing academic works, you already have to specify which edition you are using.

With regards to book clubs or casual reading, do you put the page numbers in for hardcover or paperback? Regular or large-print versions?

I don't have an answer, but it seems more complicated than just putting in "page numbers."

... which is why when it comes to citing books, one is technically supposed to refer to the edition of a book (when there are multiple editions), the publisher, the city of publication, and even the total number of pages in addition to the page number something is on. At the university I graduated from, they had an office that spot checked your dissertation for completeness and accuracy with regard to references and citations.

With ebooks, the solution could be as simple as citing the "location" (according to the device and file format which could be locations on the Kindle, Pages on the Sony, and so on), the format (epub vs. mobi vs. pdf) vs perhaps the total number of locations or maybe even the size of the file to keep in line with the different editions that could exist with regard to ebooks.

The key is for a reader to be able to find the exact source exactly as you did. If the author cites an ebook, then the reader needs to be able to find it using that same ebook. While the citation may exist in other editions be it print or file format, that shouldn't have to be accurate. Afterall, if the information is good enough, a person can roughly estimate where the citation may be in another format or edition of the same source.

... which is why when it comes to citing books, one is technically supposed to refer to the edition of a book (when there are multiple editions), the publisher, the city of publication, and even the total number of pages in addition to the page number something is on.

Yep. Been there, done that. I did many research papers, both in school and at the engineering firm I worked at for many years. Plus, I had to read FCC regulations and quote from them. :bookworm:

Thinking about the citation issue, maybe the thing to do would be to allow auxiliary "page mapping" files to be associated with ebooks. Basically, these would simply map the ereader's internal location system (e.g. Kindle locations) to some other pagination system, e.g. the pages of a particular paper edition. On your Kindle (or other ereader), you would have the option to display the current location in any format your "page mapping" file supports. You could, for example, set it up to track the paper edition(s) you happen to own, so you could go back and forth.

The downside is that, of course, somebody would have to go to the effort to create the "page mapping" files. But if you're trying to sell your ebook for academic purposes, it strikes me that you have a pretty good incentive to create such a file for your purchasers. And I suspect that there would be a community of folks willing to create such mappings simply for their own satisfaction.

The advantage of having a separate file is that it could be swapped/updated at any time without having to obtain a whole new ebook. You could also "retrofit" this solution to ebooks you've already purchased. You could also periodically update your "page mapping" files to include future printings of paper books.

My current reader tells me how many screens in I am relative the estimated numbers of screens for my font setting and I like that but for discussing books it seems to me paragraph number would be even better than page number. I do not believe that paragraph numbering would be a huge technological challenge.

People who can't stand newb questions and comments can just not read and post to such threads, it is even less hassle than returning a ebook reader because it has one issue you hope might be addressed in the next software service release or just want to vent about.

for discussing books it seems to me paragraph number would be even better than page number.

That has some appeal, but it sort of leaves the person with just the paper edition in the lurch. Very few paper books have paragraph numbers. If someone has cited a paragraph number and I want to look up the reference in a library book, it might be extremely inconvenient if the chapters are long. Parallel citations would be better, I think.

I tend to prefer one page number for every turn of a page on the ebook reader. Right now the epub format is confusing the hell out of me because I have a book I'm reading that I know is over 200k words but it's only "530" pages when on my PRS-505 that would have been about 1500 pages in LRF format.

It was a little off-putting when I realized that there were percentages instead of page numbers when I first got the Kindle, but I've since come to appreciate it. When I'm reading a paper book, I am able to tell how far I am into the book just by comparing what I've read to what I haven't (meaning the overall thickness of the book...am I even making any sense? lol), so I can mentally correspond that with the percentages when reading on my Kindle.

I was a PhD student in the past, and I can see where some of those here are coming from, but things were just as bad for printed documents as they are now with ebooks. With multiple editions of books, varying content, etc you had to really make sure your references were clean and accurate (total pages, edition number, etc).

I'm not sure why someone couldn't do something similar with ebooks. It is something that will have to be adopted through MLA or other formatting groups, but I don't see how identifying a specific location, the total number of locations, and even the file format couldn't work for ebooks and references.

A lot of the problems are going to exist as long as we have multiple formats. Right now, it will be epub vs. mobi vs. pdf.... Then, even if we get a standard format or standard method for ebooks and documents that work, we'll always have the issue of eboook vs. print. That's just how its going to be. Everyone is going to have to adapt to some extent be in the companies, the authors, or the consumers who do the reading. Locations do probably need changing, but I think it is a bit optimistic to think there will be one solution that works.

I feel it will be a long time before digital readers and their content can be used in academic research, exept perhaps for an global orientation on the subject. And also, not all can be, or should be digitalized.

In writing up my research I am glad I don't have to use annotations of an academic e-book. I mean: what is the standard? Will I be able to use those annotations or search in other places in that particular e-book in about 40 years from now? And on which device and in which format? And how will other people check my quotations and annotations in the meantime?

Literature in my field is not so popular that there are many editions of it, so references are clear, most of the time. As for the rest: I have to find most of my material in archives, where they are kept under lock and key and good conditions, accessible if you know where to look. But all of that is not digitalized, so it is a lot of legwork.

And also, sometimes, the typographical aspect of a book or paper is important to me. I don't know in advance which, and I wouldn't like some else, who digitalizes all that, to make that decision for me.

I still have a lot of reservations on the subject of Kindle+ academics and am rather intrigued if and when they'll going to use it.:chinscratch:

Oh things like this are likely to ruffle some feathers: the eBook readers are the 1st big change in the book industry since the invention of the printing press.

And most likely the average age off the people in the book industry is rather high compared to the people that use and like eBook readers. Mind you... those are the same people that claim young people should be reading more books. Well this is their opportunity to make something out of it and show riaa/mpaa how they should have handled music.

eBook readers are here to stay and the way annotation works now should be altered to take eBook readers into account. In 20, 25, 30 years all you get are probably ebooks and asking for the paper version will be ancient :D

I feel it will be a long time before digital readers and their content can be used in academic research, exept perhaps for an global orientation on the subject. And also, not all can be, or should be digitalized.

In writing up my research I am glad I don't have to use annotations of an academic e-book. I mean: what is the standard? Will I be able to use those annotations or search in other places in that particular e-book in about 40 years from now? And on which device and in which format? And how will other people check my quotations and annotations in the meantime?

Literature in my field is not so popular that there are many editions of it, so references are clear, most of the time. As for the rest: I have to find most of my material in archives, where they are kept under lock and key and good conditions, accessible if you know where to look. But all of that is not digitalized, so it is a lot of legwork.

And also, sometimes, the typographical aspect of a book or paper is important to me. I don't know in advance which, and I wouldn't like some else, who digitalizes all that, to make that decision for me.

I still have a lot of reservations on the subject of Kindle+ academics and am rather intrigued if and when they'll going to use it.:chinscratch:

Oh, by all means I agree with you. The citation issues you brought up are a big reason why I think things are going to take a while. I actually only rarely had some of the problems you (and I) talked about like editions, formats, etc., but I've seen such problems. In my field (earthquake engineering), things were so new that we actually relied on journals and conference papers, which are actually quite simple to reference no matter the format paper or pdf because one never has to note a specific page or location. Electronic copies are just as common in those items.

However, those electronic copies that are out there bring up an item that will only be a bigger problem and that is the longevity of a source. This has become a problem with conference proceedings that are becoming more electronic, yet their location is never consistent. Right now it is a matter of internet addresses, but the same type of thing will come up with e-readers and whether they still exist or not in 5, 20, or 100 years.

Technology is a challenge across the board. It moves faster than the standards ever bother to keep up with.

Jon is one of the original Sony fanboyz. he'll jump on any oppourtunity to diss a Kindle. pay no mind

It's not that at all. It's that I see people with a Kindle saying I want this or I need that and it turns out other brands of readers have those features. So my question is why buy a Kindle when what you want and/or need is not there but exists in other readers? ADE based readers have page numbers. Some ADE based readers have PDF reflow. So really it's a matter of if the features are not there, don't complain about them. Get a reader that has those features.

It's been said on MR many times. When you buy a reader, buy it for what it can do now and not what it might do sometime down the road. So buying a Kindle when you want/need features it doesn't have is silly. That would be like someone buying a Sony Reader and then complaining that it won't handle Amazon's eBooks.

Imagine reading the book on my Android phone... turn the page 10 times and still be on the same page (at least my Sony's only on the same page for two page turns). I'll take the % complete any day!

People talk about being on the same page as their teacher or whatever. Is the majority of ereader users students? I would've guessed the majority to be casual readers like me.

When you look at the ADE page numbers you do get like 123-124 of 432. That means the screen you are on is starting with page 123 and 124 starts someplace else on the page. So you don't get full pages multiple times.

I tend to prefer one page number for every turn of a page on the ebook reader. Right now the epub format is confusing the hell out of me because I have a book I'm reading that I know is over 200k words but it's only "530" pages when on my PRS-505 that would have been about 1500 pages in LRF format.

ePub bases page numbers on 1024 characters in the XML. So you get fairly consistent page numbers regardless of text size.

QUOTE=Rinzwind;1186474]…………………………
eBook readers are here to stay and the way annotation works now should be altered to take eBook readers into account. In 20, 25, 30 years all you get are probably ebooks and asking for the paper version will be ancient....[/QUOTE]


Rinzwind: I do agree that ereaders are here to stay.
This exchange of thoughts about page-numbers however is not about the right to exist of the ereader, but exploring the use of locations as annotations in academic or other research. I have serious doubts on that subject and feel there's still a lot of work to be done.

As emalvick said; the location of digitalized proceeding is never consistent and consistency is what is needed for any semblance of sound research. And all findings must be able to stand some scrutiny, now and in the years to come. (BTW not by me in 40 years as I stated; a bit optimistic as I would be 97!:rolleyes: ).

So, I feel the system of locations Kindle uses on their readers is not yet fit to be used in any kind of research or reference.

Having Percentage with 2-3 places of decimals will solve all the Page number problems.

Having Percentage with 2-3 places of decimals will solve all the Page number problems.

You just may be right. :bulb2:

Having Percentage with 2-3 places of decimals will solve all the Page number problems.

Not really.

People who want page numbers want them for a variety of reasons (some more reasonable than others), and these requirements are in some conflict with each other.
- some people want the 'familiarity' of page numbers, don't care about whether these are absolute references, just want to know how many times they need to click Next to get to the end of a book.
- some people want page numbers that correspond with a particular print edition (for citation purposes)
- some people can't get used to Location numbers and need something else (like your high precision percentage) to measure reading progress
- some people like things the way the are and don't want anything to change

So in addressing these requirements, Amazon needs to be careful.

Not really.

People who want page numbers want them for a variety of reasons (some more reasonable than others), and these requirements are in some conflict with each other.
- some people want the 'familiarity' of page numbers, don't care about whether these are absolute references, just want to know how many times they need to click Next to get to the end of a book.
- some people want page numbers that correspond with a particular print edition (for citation purposes)
- some people can't get used to Location numbers and need something else (like your high precision percentage) to measure reading progress
- some people like things the way the are and don't want anything to change

So in addressing these requirements, Amazon needs to be careful.

I think going with the most viable option would be the best thing to do. They can always have options for all of the formats of displaying progress. But I think displaying 2-3 places of decimals would be easy and really effective.

I was recently reading Matthew Arnold's "Culture and Anarchy" on my K2, and it has physical page numbers corresponding to a specific print edition. They are embedded as [N] in the text; at first I took them for end notes, but once I realized they were page numbers, they became fairly unobtrusive. Here's an example of what I'm talking about: One screen on the Kindle might show

"This is some text on page 123 of a specific print edition. blah blah blah blah blah. This is the last text on that page [124] and this is the first text on page 124 of the specific print edition. blah blah blah."

Of course, the actual text was a lot more boring than "blah blah blah"! ;)

Locations are a cool inovation, however in some rare cases page numbers are still vital even on ebook readers (especially when the footnotes, TOC or external references / quotations use them)

I was recently reading Matthew Arnold's "Culture and Anarchy" on my K2, and it has physical page numbers corresponding to a specific print edition. They are embedded as [N] in the text; at first I took them for end notes, but once I realized they were page numbers, they became fairly unobtrusive. Here's an example of what I'm talking about: One screen on the Kindle might show

"This is some text on page 123 of a specific print edition. blah blah blah blah blah. This is the last text on that page [124] and this is the first text on page 124 of the specific print edition. blah blah blah."

Of course, the actual text was a lot more boring than "blah blah blah"! ;)

That could work for citations, I think, provided it is marked from which book edition these page numbers are.:)

I was recently reading Matthew Arnold's "Culture and Anarchy" on my K2, and it has physical page numbers corresponding to a specific print edition. They are embedded as [N] in the text; at first I took them for end notes, but once I realized they were page numbers, they became fairly unobtrusive.

Those of us in the legal profession have been dealing with this for decades now, since the advent of Lexis and Westlaw and rules that still require citation to print books.

It might be "unobtrusive" with one page number, but wait until there are multiple editions. For US Supreme Court decisions, there are three paper editions, each denoted by a * before the page number. It is anything but unobtrusive.

And of course the services providing the book-to-electronic conversions are very expensive. Considering how much trouble we often have getting simple, decent formatting out of book publishers, what makes you think that we could get this additional service that requires hours and hours of hand-coding without the books tripling in price?

The solution is for the old stodgy institutions to adapt. That includes academic libraries buying Kindle editions the same way that law libraries buy Lexis, Westlaw and other licenses for electronic format books. Then a Kindle cite would be no more hard to find than any other cite (and might even be easier because it could be looked up on a computer instead of requiring a trip to a library).

I've been surprised by the extent to which some people seem unable to think of ebooks as books. They can't shake off the notion that they're simply an electronic version of a real (i.e. printed on paper) book, and that the only way to cite material found in an ebook is to somehow be able to refer back to the pages on which the material can be found in the print version.

There appear to be two assumptions underlying this constant call for page numbers to be provided in ebooks for use in academic citations:

(a) That a citation is only valid if it refers back to a book that is printed on paper.

(b) That a citation which refers to a particular ebook edition accessed on a specific e-reader is somehow invalid, because one would have to have the same ebook edition (and possibly the same e-reader) to pinpoint it exactly from the citation.

With regard to (a), I'd have to ask "why?". Citations referencing material found online and in other electronic resources have been acceptable for years now, in all of the main referencing "styles" (Chicago, APA, etc). Ebooks are simply another electronic resource that is becoming available for disseminating and accessing information. Many universities already include "references to material in ebooks" in their guidance to students and staff on how to cite different types of material, and the official APA Style Blog contains an article discussing how to cite ebook material that was written over a year ago (http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/09/how-do-i-cite-a-kindle.html). They make no mention of having to refer back to printed edition page numbers when citing from an ebook - rather, they suggest "chapter/section/paragraph number" style citations.

Perhaps what we need is for e-reader devices and applications to provide a "citation" feature where you highlight some text, and the e-reader attaches a note to that text listing the author(s), title, chapter heading (and sub-headings if there are any) plus paragraph number. That would be one way of standardising the citation of ebook material.

As for (b), I'd point out that, if you provide a reference to material from the 1st edition of a work, the citation isn't invalid because it doesn't also provide additional references to the presence and location of the same material in the 2nd edition, or the abridged version, etc. The fact that someone would have to locate a copy of the 1st edition if they wanted to double check the accuracy of the citation, and couldn't do so by checking their 3rd edition (revised and expanded, with additional illustrations), doesn't make the reference any less valid or acceptable. The same principle should surely apply to ebook editions?

The purpose of a citation is to identify the work referenced, the edition that was consulted, and, as accurately as possible, the location in that work where the referenced material can be found. That can all be done quite accurately for material contained in an ebook (whether it's by referring to paragraph numbers, or Kindle locations, or whatever other "location identifiers" are provided by specific e-readers and e-reader applications), without having to finesse some sort of "back-reference" to an identical print edition.

The purpose of a citation is to identify the work referenced, the edition that was consulted, and, as accurately as possible, the location in that work where the referenced material can be found. That can all be done quite accurately for material contained in an ebook (whether it's by referring to paragraph numbers, or Kindle locations, or whatever other "location identifiers" are provided by specific e-readers and e-reader applications), without having to finesse some sort of "back-reference" to an identical print edition.

The purpose is also that the citation should work after e.g. 20 years. And I do not believe that any ebook system for position will be the same in 20 years.

People who want page numbers want them for a variety of reasons (some more reasonable than others), and these requirements are in some conflict with each other.

from my perspective the main hassle with page numbers is when a book references itself (very common in some material) and says things like 'see the note on page xyz for more info on this' or 'see page yyy for an example' etc.

I think that either these 'see page xyz' should be dynamically recalculated (would be more difficult to do) or there should be a way to say 'send me approximately to page xyz of the print edition of the book' which wouldn't be very hard to do since Amazon would know how many pages the pbook had, so you could do a % based guess of where you should be

For reading fiction I agree page numbers are fairly useless, but some books cross-reference themselves a lot in a way that makes them difficult to follow on a kindle.

from my perspective the main hassle with page numbers is when a book references itself (very common in some material) and says things like 'see the note on page xyz for more info on this' or 'see page yyy for an example' etc.

I think that either these 'see page xyz' should be dynamically recalculated (would be more difficult to do) or there should be a way to say 'send me approximately to page xyz of the print edition of the book' which wouldn't be very hard to do since Amazon would know how many pages the pbook had, so you could do a % based guess of where you should be


Surely in an ebook, internal cross references should simply be implemented as hyperlinks, shouldn't they? Why would one need to use a page number at all for such a purpose?

Surely in an ebook, internal cross references should simply be implemented as hyperlinks, shouldn't they? Why would one need to use a page number at all for such a purpose?

Simple case - a scanned PDF that has internal references to other pages. I have a lot of reference books that do that and at the moment I have to hand write a cross ref sheet to match the page number to the kindle location number.

DMSmillie, another reason for citations to refer back to paper based book pages is that different e-readers will give different references for the same location and that reference could also change with font size.

Simple case - a scanned PDF that has internal references to other pages. I have a lot of reference books that do that and at the moment I have to hand write a cross ref sheet to match the page number to the kindle location number.

DMSmillie, another reason for citations to refer back to paper based book pages is that different e-readers will give different references for the same location and that reference could also change with font size.

That observation actually holds true for Adobe's own reader. I have a large number of manuals and the page number the reader shows rarely corresponds with the page number at the top or bottom of a pdf "printed" page. The extraneous white pages and or cover pages or opening "focus" page all count in the reader so when the manual says See Page xx, rarely if I enter xx in the reader's jump-to-page will it be the correct page.

Still real page numbers could be useful for those who want them.

They make no mention of having to refer back to printed edition page numbers when citing from an ebook - rather, they suggest "chapter/section/paragraph number" style citations.

This will lead to vast numbers of citation errors. A boatload of otherwise good non-fiction authors do not have the clerical ability to accurately count sections within paragraphs and paragraphs within sections.

It is going to take some time and thinking to get this right. But I would suggest that there might be a different system for older and new works. As a wild suggestion, maybe some international commission should decree that everything published before 2020 or so will be cited by page numbers, and everything after by something akin to the kindle location number. Going forward, all paper books that want Berne Convention protection would have to include location numbers, and all eBook devices that hope to be purchased by students and scholars would have to reference paper page numbers for pre-2020 origin material.

I realize this doesn't address books that go through multiple editions, but the vast majority of works are only published once.

If you find the Kindle is lacking in features you need/want then return it for a reader that has the featured you want/need. It's that simple. Whining about them is not going to help. The K3 is never going to have page numbers. Get over it.

I found it odd at first but now I like the % system. It's almost fun watching the number grow to 100%. Even if it had an option for page numbers I would stick with percentage. I don't use the K3 for academic or legal work, though, nor do I take part in book club discussions.

Surely in an ebook, internal cross references should simply be implemented as hyperlinks, shouldn't they? Why would one need to use a page number at all for such a purpose?

I agree, but that's not the case in several books sold by amazon as far as I can see... especially in cookbooks you often get 'see page xxx for how to cook yyy this way', one can usually figure it out by doing a word search, but it'd be nicer if there was a way to approximately figure out where to go or have a hyperlink.

Unfortunately a lot of books which were previously available in print are simply autoconverted to ebook format, without any thought for things like internal references to page numbers. A "proper" conversion to ebook format would include replacing these references with hyperlinks to the referenced point in the book, and its a shame that publishers don't appear to have sufficient respect for those paying for ebooks to expend any time or resource on tidying up that kind of thing when converting their print books.

From the discussion it is not clear why Amazon cannot simply have the page numbers inserted in the text for purposes of citation. It would not matter that the page number from the original text will not map onto the page on the screen because of variations in font size that the reader uses. This way, Kindle Books could br used in academic work.

This is an ancient thread. Amazon enabled a way to have the hard-copy page numbers available. Not all books have them yet, and it only works on the most recent firmware.

It is quite unsatisfactory not to use page number locations. In a Kindle book with an index, for example, reference in the index is to page numbers. The text is not page numbered and therefore it is difficult to go to the indexed item. Yes?

It is quite unsatisfactory not to use page number locations. In a Kindle book with an index, for example, reference in the index is to page numbers. The text is not page numbered and therefore it is difficult to go to the indexed item. Yes?
Not when you can click the hyperlink in the index and jump right to the reference... eliminating the need for any kind of number. :D